2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

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2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby edo » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:47 pm UTC

Image
Title text: I'd like 0.4608 apples, please.

2019? does that mean we're in the future? explains the lack of friction
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby jozwa » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:52 pm UTC

I did the math: 0.4608 * 2.17 = 0.999936

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby Garnasha » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:07 pm UTC

Europeans continue to be amazed that in the US, VAT is a tax on goods bought rather than a tax on goods sold. And that all levels of government seem to add their own, causing it to vary on very small distances.

jozwa wrote:I did the math: 0.4608 * 2.17 = 0.999936
I'd like 0.46082949308 apples please.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby moody7277 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:26 pm UTC

Garnasha wrote:Europeans continue to be amazed that in the US, VAT is a tax on goods bought rather than a tax on goods sold. And that all levels of government seem to add their own, causing it to vary on very small distances.

jozwa wrote:I did the math: 0.4608 * 2.17 = 0.999936
I'd like 0.46082949308 apples please.


Then of course there's that whole arcana of what is and is not subject to sales tax.
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby Mutex » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:27 pm UTC

Yes, the idea that in the US the price on the shelf isn't what you pay is still really weird to me. If you don't have much money on you, it must be hard to work out if you have enough.

I think when this has come up before, the reason has been that there are a few different levels (county, state, federal) of the tax and the amount could change any time, making you re-price everything in the store, and it's possible for that to happen frequently enough to be impractical.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby The_Alchemist » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:32 pm UTC

jozwa wrote:I did the math: 0.4608 * 2.17 = 0.999936


The real question is how many DIDN'T do the maths?

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby ucim » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:36 pm UTC

No. It's how many maths did people do.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby NotAllThere » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:45 pm UTC

ucim wrote:No. It's how many maths did people do.

Jose
How much maths did people do, surely?

I'd like 0.460829493087557603686635944700 recurring apples please.
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:47 pm UTC

edo wrote:2019? does that mean we're in the future? explains the lack of friction

But what about all the Science Friction!

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:49 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:Yes, the idea that in the US the price on the shelf isn't what you pay is still really weird to me. If you don't have much money on you, it must be hard to work out if you have enough.

I think when this has come up before, the reason has been that there are a few different levels (county, state, federal) of the tax and the amount could change any time, making you re-price everything in the store, and it's possible for that to happen frequently enough to be impractical.

Also involved is the idea that the store itself is only charging you the sticker price, and anything above that is something the government is tacking on, and the store wants to be clear about what they're charging vs what the government is charging.
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby heuristically_alone » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:50 pm UTC

Those are some expensive apples.
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby edo » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:53 pm UTC

NotAllThere wrote:
ucim wrote:No. It's how many maths did people do.

Jose
How much maths did people do, surely?

I'd like 0.460829493087557603686635944700 recurring apples please.


Unpopular opinion: People need to do fewer maths

ETA: Also, now you want recurring apples, too? What, you think apples grow on trees or something? :P
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby ucim » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:58 pm UTC

NotAllThere wrote:
ucim wrote:No. It's how many maths did people do.

Jose
How much maths did people do, surely?

No, it's how many maths. How much of something you measure, how many of something you count. The 's' implies something you count.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby SuicideJunkie » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:09 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
NotAllThere wrote:
ucim wrote:No. It's how many maths did people do.

Jose
How much maths did people do, surely?

No, it's how many maths. How much of something you measure, how many of something you count. The 's' implies something you count.

Jose

You need more dimensions. How many types of math did you need, and how much did you use of each of those?

PS: Does anyone know the current exchange rate between basic algebra and combinatorics?

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby AndrewGPaul » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:30 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:Yes, the idea that in the US the price on the shelf isn't what you pay is still really weird to me. If you don't have much money on you, it must be hard to work out if you have enough.

I think when this has come up before, the reason has been that there are a few different levels (county, state, federal) of the tax and the amount could change any time, making you re-price everything in the store, and it's possible for that to happen frequently enough to be impractical.


… which is why I ended up with a huge pile of shrapnel when on holiday in Florida. The only time I managed to pay with the right money was when I was in the cafeteria in one of the theme parks; I just dumped all the smash onto the tray and handed over what the cashier asked for.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby DanD » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:28 pm UTC

AndrewGPaul wrote:
Mutex wrote:Yes, the idea that in the US the price on the shelf isn't what you pay is still really weird to me. If you don't have much money on you, it must be hard to work out if you have enough.

I think when this has come up before, the reason has been that there are a few different levels (county, state, federal) of the tax and the amount could change any time, making you re-price everything in the store, and it's possible for that to happen frequently enough to be impractical.


… which is why I ended up with a huge pile of shrapnel when on holiday in Florida. The only time I managed to pay with the right money was when I was in the cafeteria in one of the theme parks; I just dumped all the smash onto the tray and handed over what the cashier asked for.


Pretty much how it works. In my experience, US people don't generally spend coins, with limited exceptions for things like vending machines and laundromats. As a rule, they just sort of accumulate until we have an absurd quantity, and we're in the process of moving, at which point they get dumped in a coinstar machine. Come to think of it, this may also help explain the lack of uptake for dollar coins.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby freezeblade » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:36 pm UTC

DanD wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:… which is why I ended up with a huge pile of shrapnel when on holiday in Florida. The only time I managed to pay with the right money was when I was in the cafeteria in one of the theme parks; I just dumped all the smash onto the tray and handed over what the cashier asked for.


Pretty much how it works. In my experience, US people don't generally spend coins, with limited exceptions for things like vending machines and laundromats. As a rule, they just sort of accumulate until we have an absurd quantity, and we're in the process of moving, at which point they get dumped in a coinstar machine. Come to think of it, this may also help explain the lack of uptake for dollar coins.


Can confirm. Everyone I know has a "coin jar" where coins are summarily tossed when returning from the store, etc. If said person does not have access to their own washing machine, expect this jar to be almost 100% devoid of 25 cent pieces.
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby JPatten » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:13 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Mutex wrote:Yes, the idea that in the US the price on the shelf isn't what you pay is still really weird to me. If you don't have much money on you, it must be hard to work out if you have enough.

I think when this has come up before, the reason has been that there are a few different levels (county, state, federal) of the tax and the amount could change any time, making you re-price everything in the store, and it's possible for that to happen frequently enough to be impractical.

Also involved is the idea that the store itself is only charging you the sticker price, and anything above that is something the government is tacking on, and the store wants to be clear about what they're charging vs what the government is charging.


One is that itis true, the price on the shelf is what the store is charging and taxes are added on top of that. VAT tends to bake the price into the sale price. Of course, Cosco in Seattle took this to the extreme and made a statement about what is felt to be an absurd attempt at social engineering through taxation.
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby Heimhenge » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:22 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:
DanD wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:… which is why I ended up with a huge pile of shrapnel when on holiday in Florida. The only time I managed to pay with the right money was when I was in the cafeteria in one of the theme parks; I just dumped all the smash onto the tray and handed over what the cashier asked for.


Pretty much how it works. In my experience, US people don't generally spend coins, with limited exceptions for things like vending machines and laundromats. As a rule, they just sort of accumulate until we have an absurd quantity, and we're in the process of moving, at which point they get dumped in a coinstar machine. Come to think of it, this may also help explain the lack of uptake for dollar coins.


Can confirm. Everyone I know has a "coin jar" where coins are summarily tossed when returning from the store, etc. If said person does not have access to their own washing machine, expect this jar to be almost 100% devoid of 25 cent pieces.


Yep, used to have a coin jar myself. Actually a cookie jar. Then my wife (who needed the jar back) bought me one of these nifty gadgets as a birthday gift:

https://www.staples.com/Royal-Sovereign ... uct_736778

Kinda ironic since it doesn't much speed up the coin dump process ... I collect coins so I pretty much look at each one individually. Then I dump them all into the hopper and let the machine work its magic. Very cool to watch.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby Archgeek » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:37 pm UTC

Heimhenge wrote:
freezeblade wrote:
DanD wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:… which is why I ended up with a huge pile of shrapnel when on holiday in Florida. The only time I managed to pay with the right money was when I was in the cafeteria in one of the theme parks; I just dumped all the smash onto the tray and handed over what the cashier asked for.


Pretty much how it works. In my experience, US people don't generally spend coins, with limited exceptions for things like vending machines and laundromats. As a rule, they just sort of accumulate until we have an absurd quantity, and we're in the process of moving, at which point they get dumped in a coinstar machine. Come to think of it, this may also help explain the lack of uptake for dollar coins.


Can confirm. Everyone I know has a "coin jar" where coins are summarily tossed when returning from the store, etc. If said person does not have access to their own washing machine, expect this jar to be almost 100% devoid of 25 cent pieces.


Yep, used to have a coin jar myself. Actually a cookie jar. Then my wife (who needed the jar back) bought me one of these nifty gadgets as a birthday gift:

https://www.staples.com/Royal-Sovereign ... uct_736778

Kinda ironic since it doesn't much speed up the coin dump process ... I collect coins so I pretty much look at each one individually. Then I dump them all into the hopper and let the machine work its magic. Very cool to watch.


Sounds about right. For my part, I've a much cheaper version of that machine and a lot of coin wrappers from the bank for deposit upon sufficient accumulation, save for quarters, which I'd go and get rolls of from the bank for laundry.

However, I no longer use pay laundromats, so there's no need to visit the bank for quarters, and I've taken to pretty much living off my debit card, stemming the change accumulation nigh unto zero, so I've got a dusty coin sorter with tubes that have been partially filled for nearly half a decade, and a stack of paper deposit wrappers with their own accumulation of dust.

I suspect it's an increasingly common situation, save that others have probably thrown out their coin sorters and cast the contents into either a coinstar or one of those vast empty water cooler bottles, never to be fully filled, or if filled, never to be emptied on discovery of its mass.
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby freezeblade » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:52 pm UTC

Archgeek wrote:I suspect it's an increasingly common situation, save that others have probably thrown out their coin sorters and cast the contents into either a coinstar or one of those vast empty water cooler bottles, never to be fully filled, or if filled, never to be emptied on discovery of its mass.


Or the size of the jar itself decreases. Where I live, many businesses are still cash only, but my coin jar is a quart mason jar, it is continually rummaged though for quarters (laundry/bus/parking), but has never been full, and I've had this one for 3 years.
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby qvxb » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:34 pm UTC

According to the CPI calculator, 5¢ in 1930 dollars, the usual price for apples sold by unemployed Depression era Americans (and future FDR voters) is 75¢ today. Selling them for $1.00 each avoids having to make change.

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

Some panhandled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I8-CbJYGMA

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby Old Bruce » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:58 am UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:PS: Does anyone know the current exchange rate between basic algebra and combinatorics?

Don't know much about combinatorics....

But I do have a Yen for Krugerrands.
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby GlassHouses » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:00 am UTC

freezeblade wrote:Everyone I know has a "coin jar" where coins are summarily tossed when returning from the store, etc.

Huh! I just make exact change whenever I can. I have a wallet with a built-in coin compartment, which no one in America seems to have, but is perfectly normal in Europe. Makes it really easy and convenient to see what you have, coin-wise, and fish out the right ones. The coins never accumulate and I never have to dump them out.

I do have to go to the bank to get rolls of quarters for laundry every few months. Even if I were to save up all my quarters, there would never be enough to pay for the $2.25 per load for the washer plus $2.00 for the dryer.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby sotanaht » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:40 am UTC

Mutex wrote:Yes, the idea that in the US the price on the shelf isn't what you pay is still really weird to me. If you don't have much money on you, it must be hard to work out if you have enough.

I think when this has come up before, the reason has been that there are a few different levels (county, state, federal) of the tax and the amount could change any time, making you re-price everything in the store, and it's possible for that to happen frequently enough to be impractical.

If the tax was on goods SOLD rather than goods BOUGHT, you wouldn't reprice anything. If somethings $1, the customer pays $1, and then YOU pay the tax out of that $1. If the tax is 10%, you lose .10, but you don't pass that on to the customer directly because that's YOUR tax, not theirs.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby White Sun » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:59 am UTC

In that case, we have to work hard to earn enough money to eat apples.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby x7eggert » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:48 am UTC

In order to reduce the amount of coins you have, take out 9 ¢ to pay the last digit. (4 ¢ might be a good value, too.)

If you can't do that, take out one dollar / euro in {10,20,25,50}-¢-pieces. Pay the last two digits using that (possibly slightly more).

If you can't do that, Europeans need to consider euro coins.

If you can't do that, you succeeded. I frequently have exactly the minimum amount of coins in my wallet, and by not considering more than one kind of coin, it's fast.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby Soupspoon » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:07 pm UTC

Euro(cent) coins are, IIRC: 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50 (and €1 and €2).

That's certainly the magnitude pattern for current decimal sterling coinage (plus commemorative coins of £5, £10 and more, but I only once got given a £5 coin in change, it was probably never meant to be spent¹). There's been talk of dumping pennies, for a long time now. Coppers (1p and 2p) since a certain year have already been made magnetic (attractable, not attracting, though that would be fun too!) so as not to be so much more expensive to produce, in material, than their face value - but it's not a battle being won.


¹ I imagine it was nicked during a break-in, but if the shop that took it in before me hadn't queried this then there was no point me doing so, now so long after fact. It wasn't rare, just a huge limited edition.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:47 pm UTC

When I was there in 2002-3, Australia had abandoned anything smaller than 5c - prices were still in any integer number of cents, but, at point of sale, if paying cash, the customer got to keep the odd cents (or the shop gave a few extra cents in change) to get to a multiple of 5c.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby da Doctah » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:04 pm UTC

heuristically_alone wrote:Those are some expensive apples.


Last time I priced Apples, they were going for something like $300 each.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby Heimhenge » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:01 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:When I was there in 2002-3, Australia had abandoned anything smaller than 5c - prices were still in any integer number of cents, but, at point of sale, if paying cash, the customer got to keep the odd cents (or the shop gave a few extra cents in change) to get to a multiple of 5c.


Here in the states it's quite common for convenience stores to have a "spare change bowl" containing mostly pennies. The understanding is that you sometimes take what you need to meet the cost, and other times you contribute change you receive. I'm sure some people abuse the system and only take change, but it seems to work well. I rarely see the bowl empty.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby sotanaht » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:59 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:When I was there in 2002-3, Australia had abandoned anything smaller than 5c - prices were still in any integer number of cents, but, at point of sale, if paying cash, the customer got to keep the odd cents (or the shop gave a few extra cents in change) to get to a multiple of 5c.


I've heard something about an "odd cent" rule. Didn't make any sense though. If they are going to cut out the 1 cent then just round, the same way we already round anything under 1 cent.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby PM 2Ring » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:10 pm UTC

sotanaht wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:When I was there in 2002-3, Australia had abandoned anything smaller than 5c - prices were still in any integer number of cents, but, at point of sale, if paying cash, the customer got to keep the odd cents (or the shop gave a few extra cents in change) to get to a multiple of 5c.


I've heard something about an "odd cent" rule. Didn't make any sense though. If they are going to cut out the 1 cent then just round, the same way we already round anything under 1 cent.


The rule is pretty simple. Prices are rounded to the nearest 5c. So if the total is $1.00, $1.01, or $1.02 you pay $1.00, if it's $1.03, $1.04, or $1.05 you pay $1.05.

There has been some talk of getting rid of the 5c coin, but it's not popular. OTOH, a lot of transactions here use electronic funds transfers these days, so I guess in a few more years most people won't mind losing the 5c.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby Soupspoon » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:26 pm UTC

The first time I went to Denmark, they'd already 'capped' the lower coins at the 5 ore (o-slash?), i.e. nothing below, and IIRC that was even smaller that the currently extant ½p coin (decimal) and worth not much more, if indeed more at all.

We'd had farthings (¼d/quarter pennies, or 960ths of a Pound) pre-decimal, but they still were useful for much of their life (withdrawn 1960ish). The ½p of post-1970 got phased out mid '80s, some time, leaving people unable to buy an odd number of aniseed balls (2 for a penny!) but otherwise not particularly missed for everyday utilitarian reasons. Since their demise, the penny (and prices of £XX.99p) has stubbornly held on, and that's three decades or more, now.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby NotAllThere » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:20 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
NotAllThere wrote:
ucim wrote:No. It's how many maths did people do.

Jose
How much maths did people do, surely?

No, it's how many maths. How much of something you measure, how many of something you count. The 's' implies something you count.

Jose


No. Mathematics is a singular word that happens to end in S. There's no such thing as a mathematic. Perhaps the confusion arises between UK usage of the abbreviation "Maths" and the US usage of "Math". History is a subject you can study and school, so is mathematics. Singular. Other nouns ending in S that are singular include "lens", "news" and "means" (As in a means to an end).
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby ucim » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:06 pm UTC

NotAllThere wrote:Perhaps the confusion arises between UK usage of the abbreviation "Maths" and the US usage of "Math".
Yes. That was the joke.

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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby Pfhorrest » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:51 pm UTC

The British math YouTube channel Numberphile concluded that “math” is actually more correct because we don’t usually take the last letter of a word as part of an abbreviation of it, and the rationale that “maths” is different because it’s a plural is unsound because even Brits say “maths is”, not “maths are”, and that verb agreement gives away its singularness.

(Jose’s joke was that British usage of “maths” would suggest that you could have many maths; the fact that you can’t, unless you mean “types of math(s)”, also gives away the singularness of the word and consequently the inappropriateness of the “s”.)
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Soupspoon
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby Soupspoon » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:27 am UTC


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Keyman
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby Keyman » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:34 pm UTC

x7eggert wrote:In order to reduce the amount of coins you have, take out 9 ¢ to pay the last digit. (4 ¢ might be a good value, too.)

If you can't do that, take out one dollar / euro in {10,20,25,50}-¢-pieces. Pay the last two digits using that (possibly slightly more).

If you can't do that, Europeans need to consider euro coins.

If you can't do that, you succeeded. I frequently have exactly the minimum amount of coins in my wallet, and by not considering more than one kind of coin, it's fast.

For extra fun, do this bit with the change after the young clerk has punched your payment as "Cash - $20" into the register. As in, for a $7.59 purchase..."Oh wait, I have the nine cents".

But only when you have time, and there's not many people waiting behind you.
Nothing could be more ill-judged than that intolerant spirit which has, at all times, characterized political parties. - A. Hamilton

Mutex
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Re: 2019: "An Apple for a Dollar"

Postby Mutex » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:04 am UTC

Keyman wrote:
x7eggert wrote:In order to reduce the amount of coins you have, take out 9 ¢ to pay the last digit. (4 ¢ might be a good value, too.)

If you can't do that, take out one dollar / euro in {10,20,25,50}-¢-pieces. Pay the last two digits using that (possibly slightly more).

If you can't do that, Europeans need to consider euro coins.

If you can't do that, you succeeded. I frequently have exactly the minimum amount of coins in my wallet, and by not considering more than one kind of coin, it's fast.

For extra fun, do this bit with the change after the young clerk has punched your payment as "Cash - $20" into the register. As in, for a $7.59 purchase..."Oh wait, I have the nine cents".

But only when you have time, and there's not many people waiting behind you.

What's the problem there? Would the cashier not be able to work out how that affects the change? That's not been my experience here, usually their reaction is "oh good".


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