Doctor Whom

[Jorpho]

femaledoctor.png

Tons of people have been going absolutely ballistic over it. It's all part of the PC mad extremist feminazi brigade agenda that will doom us all, apparently.

I would be very strongly inclined to believe that these "tons of people" are getting orders of magnitude more attention than their actual numbers would warrant. And why not? It's all solid grist for the marketing mill.

As far as I'm concerned, season 8 was the nadir and solidly demonstrative that crappy writing will thoroughly trump any casting decisions.

[Flumble]

Just came across https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM12ZVHBNwQ and felt like it needs sharing.

[Mutex]

femaledoctor.png

Tons of people have been going absolutely ballistic over it. It's all part of the PC mad extremist feminazi brigade agenda that will doom us all, apparently.

I would be very strongly inclined to believe that these "tons of people" are getting orders of magnitude more attention than their actual numbers would warrant. And why not? It's all solid grist for the marketing mill.

As far as I'm concerned, season 8 was the nadir and solidly demonstrative that crappy writing will thoroughly trump any casting decisions.

I'm talking about posts I've come across browsing Facebook.

And yeah, if the writing doesn't sharpen up then nothing else matters.

[Weeks]

femaledoctor.png

[Liri]

femaledoctor.png

Is this legal



Yeah I should catch up on Whoville. No idea what's been going on since xmas 2015.

[Zohar]

I wonder how frank the conversation was with the actress ahead of time - like "BTW, you know there's gonna be a bit of shitshow with you being a woman, right? Are you cool with that?"

[Giant Speck]

Maybe she consulted Katee Sackhoff.

[Zohar]

I doubt Starbuck was as widely adored as The Doctor before BSG came out...

[Angua]

I wonder how frank the conversation was with the actress ahead of time - like "BTW, you know there's gonna be a bit of shitshow with you being a woman, right? Are you cool with that?"

I'm pretty sure every woman and any other minority member knows that there's going to be a shitshow as soon as they take the role that has previously been held by a white, heterosexual cis male. If you change any one of those categories people tend to complain.

Remember the brouhaha over the black Hermione?

[pkcommando]

femaledoctor.png

Tons of people have been going absolutely ballistic over it. It's all part of the PC mad extremist feminazi brigade agenda that will doom us all, apparently.

I would be very strongly inclined to believe that these "tons of people" are getting orders of magnitude more attention than their actual numbers would warrant. And why not? It's all solid grist for the marketing mill.

A bit like 2013 and all the "ew, he's an oooooolllllllld guy!" BS around Capaldi's announcement. And that was after wading through all the obvious trolls.

Anytime a shitstorm starts over a new Doctor's announcement, these stories are worth a read.

[Zohar]

I'm pretty sure every woman and any other minority member knows that there's going to be a shitshow as soon as they take the role that has previously been held by a white, heterosexual cis male. If you change any one of those categories people tend to complain.

Remember the brouhaha over the black Hermione?

Yeah, I meant, I wonder how open was this dialog between Whittaker and the producers.

[Giant Speck]

I doubt Starbuck was as widely adored as The Doctor before BSG came out...

I mean, I'll give you that that the scale of the matter is nowhere near the same, but it's the most recent big example I could think of.

[eSOANEM]

Seeing as there've been major pieces in all national UK newspapers about whether they should cast a female doctor the last couple of regenerations, I'm 100% sure she was aware what it would be like regardless of the amount the producers raised it with her

[Giant Speck]

I'd be almost kind of concerned if the actress chosen to play this character didn't know enough about the character to know why people were going to make a big deal about the casting.

[OP Tipping]

Okay so the trailer is intriguing. Can't work out who that is, playing Polly.

[Jorpho]

Welp, that was a bit rubbish. Fine acting by everyone involved and some amusing gags, but questionable writing. Bit of a wasted opportunity.

Spoiler:

The whole plot is focused on this business of The Captain being fated to die, and then ... he doesn't? I don't get it. Of course, there's really only one thing that's going to happen if you're filming a Christmas episode of anything as soon as Ypres 1914 is involved.

Also, you'd think the 10->11 regeneration would have been a good lesson in finding somewhere other than the TARDIS to regenerate. Oh well.

[rmsgrey]

Welp, that was a bit rubbish. Fine acting by everyone involved and some amusing gags, but questionable writing. Bit of a wasted opportunity.

Spoiler:

The whole plot is focused on this business of The Captain being fated to die, and then ... he doesn't? I don't get it. Of course, there's really only one thing that's going to happen if you're filming a Christmas episode of anything as soon as Ypres 1914 is involved.

Also, you'd think the 10->11 regeneration would have been a good lesson in finding somewhere other than the TARDIS to regenerate. Oh well.

Spoiler:

It's about the Doctor saving someone yet again. The Captain's not important (except to his family and himself, of course) - he's just an excuse to let 1 and 12 interact, and talk about why The Doctor.

And, while the 10->11 regeneration trashed the TARDIS, the 11->12 didn't, and if you go back to the classic era, there was at least one regeneration outside the TARDIS that almost failed and needed the Doctor to spend time in the TARDIS's Null Room to stabilise, so regeneration outside the TARDIS is also risky. Leaving the control room for it (or having a companion present to limit the options for damage) would probably be a good idea though.

Any bets on how long it'll take for a regenerated TARDIS to show up? I'm guessing end of the first episode (or second if it's a two-parter)

[Pfhorrest]

While I enjoyed this Christmas Special, I second Jorpho's question.

Also, on a related note:

Spoiler:

Is the implication here that the Brigadier would never have been born had not Twelve taken his (grand?)father a few hours forward in time? In which case Twelve would not have had the history that led him to be who he was in order to do that. Bit of a grandfather paradox there. Not that that's the worst time travel logic this show has ever had. Wibbly wobbly.

Also, on an unrelated note:

Spoiler:

When was Testimony!Bill supposed to be from? She wasn't actually technically dead the last we saw of her, and this Bill remembers the events that prevented her death, and those events had the potential for her to live indefinitely after that. Is Testimony!Bill built from the memories of some future Bill who has had possibly many lifetimes worth of more experiences? In which case why does she seem exactly the same as last we saw her? Or is Testimony!Bill built from memories taken right before she "died" and Heather saved her? In which case, how does she remember being saved? (Similarly, is there now a copy of Captain Lethbridge-Stewart in Testimony from these events, and then also another copy from his actual death whenever he ends up getting around to that?)

I missed the previous discussion here about the Doctor's change of sex. I'm looking forward to seeing a female Doctor (well, more of her than the tiny bit we got to see already). However this is an odd occasion where that's the kind of thing I'd like to see in a show, because it works in-universe: we've seen that Time Lords can change sex and even race before, so having the Doctor for once not be a white man actually makes more sense than the alternative.

But I generally don't like just sticking [insert disadvantaged demographic] into already-established characters in most cases, like black Hermoine, lady Thor, the new Ghostbusters, black Spider-Man, etc., because it just seems forced and pointy. Create new characters to increase diversity, by all means, but changing the existing ones without some good in-universe reason just feels wrong.

(I will concede that for comics characters where the name is already passed from person to person, like the Thor and Spider-Man examples, that does count as an in-universe reason, and there's no reason the next person to have the title has to be the same sex/gender/whatever as the one before. But that's already a weird trope to me. Thor is Thor and Spider-Man is Peter Parker and while it's fine if someone else wields Mjolnir or uses web-shooters, they're a different character and should have a different name).

[flicky1991]

black Hermoine

That one at least wasn't the same continuity, so hardly on the same level. If the films can cast roles without paying attention to how the characters were described in the books, can't that play do the same?

[rmsgrey]

While I enjoyed this Christmas Special, I second Jorpho's question.

Also, on a related note:

Spoiler:

Is the implication here that the Brigadier would never have been born had not Twelve taken his (grand?)father a few hours forward in time? In which case Twelve would not have had the history that led him to be who he was in order to do that. Bit of a grandfather paradox there. Not that that's the worst time travel logic this show has ever had. Wibbly wobbly.

No.

Spoiler:

The Captain says he has sons, so the Brigadier's father is already alive - though who knows how the Brigadier's life is changed by his grandfather... well, statistically speaking, roughly half the allied combatants survived unscathed, and a proportion were only wounded, so there's a reasonable chance the Captain survived - though him being a combatant from the start of the war rather than only joining in in 1917 probably puts him with a rather less than 50% chance of making it home despite making it through Christmas 1914. Anyway, having his grandfather survive at least a day or two longer, and possibly make it through the entire war, is going to have ripple effects even if they're not as serious as the Brigadier otherwise never being born. On the other hand, having the First Doctor involved means any changes took place before the Doctor ever met the Brigadier, so it should all have sorted itself out by the time they meet.

[Soupspoon]

Spoiler:

I suppose, pre-Doctorisation, the Captain was to have been killed by his shell-hole companion but the companion did not need saving¹. Except from various prior wounds, which (timely-wimely, the Doctor moving the entire No-Man's-Land along those few hours) he now did not, die of prior to the Truce happening. But it's not just Cpt LS who may have survived (at least for now) but his counterpart. One more man on either side, when the Truce breaks, or possibly one less willing Truce Breaker when the higher-ups on both sides inevitably order the Truce to end.

i.e. ripples. Not that ripples have bothered The Doctor much (except when they do!).


Truly, though, the biggest Grandfather Paradox is likely the (self-reinforcing) Grandfather (Of Susan Foreman) Paradox in which that it seems that it needs #12 to bootstrap the initial #1->#2 regeneration. But then, with all bets being off since the time that #11 did his post-Pandorica 'rethink the universe(s) into existence' thing (and other similar, if less total, cosmological restructurings during other season-finales/seasonal-specials), I'm not sure we are entitled to be quite that picky about this.


On the whole, I don't think this was a classic transition/plot-pushing episode (I was expecting a bit of Three Doctors, #s1, 12 and 13,at least, but #13 had only those few minutes setting up the new season), but it was Okish. It is known that putting off Regeneration (including #10's 'tidying up' prior to the crashing start of #11's reign) does make things more awkward, so no surprise that it wasn't smooth going once the decision to move on was made. We can only wait to see how this resolves in the 2018 season proper, whenever Reboot Season 11 is actually scheduled to start (Easterish?).


¹ Cap L-S being reluctant to fire, he would not have co-killed his killer. I need to rewatch the episode with time to concentrate upon parsing the German spoken back - though I have the impression (and it's a predictable Trope to invoke) that his German echoes the very same doubts and hesitation as we hear in English, albeit not so resignedly, so would have fired in fear. But darn the selectiveness of the TARDIS's translator microbes, even at the very end (where there were two TARDII, unless they interfered with each other)!

[Mutex]

black Hermoine

That one at least wasn't the same continuity, so hardly on the same level. If the films can cast roles without paying attention to how the characters were described in the books, can't that play do the same?

If we're going to talk about Harry Potter characters getting recast with a different race actor, how about the character Lavender Brown who was played:
1. In her first appearance by a black girl
2. In her second appearance by a different black girl
3. In her third appearance, where she kisses Harry, as a white girl

(As is my understanding anyway.)

[flicky1991]

she kisses Harry

Ron, not Harry. But the first two actors were extras with no lines, and aren't named as Lavender - you can only tell from the credits (which are sometimes provably wrong with regards to non-speaking parts). And the book where she kisses Ron is also the first time the books make it clear she's (probably) white.

[HES]

whenever Reboot Season 11 is actually scheduled to start (Easterish?).

That's a big ish. Autumn.

[Soupspoon]

whenever Reboot Season 11 is actually scheduled to start (Easterish?).

That's a big ish. Autumn.

#insert joke involving a TARDIS…

(Seriously, though? Prior season starts in the new era were:
2005: March
2006: April
2007: March
2008: April
2009: some specials from Dec 2008 to Jan 2010, frustratingly
2010: April
2011: April
2012: September (to May 2013)
2013: specials in November/December
2014: August?!
2015: September!!
2016: n/a
2017: April
…so no clear trend, apart from my uneducated impression that Easterish has been important most of the time. They're just messing us about, obviously!)

[Mutex]

she kisses Harry

Ron, not Harry. But the first two actors were extras with no lines, and aren't named as Lavender - you can only tell from the credits (which are sometimes provably wrong with regards to non-speaking parts). And the book where she kisses Ron is also the first time the books make it clear she's (probably) white.

I know you're making the point the character wasn't really established before then, but it's still a credited character whose on-screen ethnicity changed to white in a particular universe the moment she had lines. So it's funny people bring up Black Hermoine and not Lavender.

And the book where she kisses Ron is also the first time the books make it clear she's (probably) white.

What does the book actually say that suggests she's white?

[flicky1991]

What does the book actually say that suggests she's white?

There's a scene where Lavender and Ron are passionately kissing and it says "it was impossible to tell whose hands were whose". Ron is definitely very pale-skinned from other descriptions, so Lavender is almost certainly white.

[Flumble]

Also, on an unrelated note:

Spoiler:

When was Testimony!Bill supposed to be from? She wasn't actually technically dead the last we saw of her, and this Bill remembers the events that prevented her death, and those events had the potential for her to live indefinitely after that. Is Testimony!Bill built from the memories of some future Bill who has had possibly many lifetimes worth of more experiences? In which case why does she seem exactly the same as last we saw her? Or is Testimony!Bill built from memories taken right before she "died" and Heather saved her? In which case, how does she remember being saved?

Spoiler:

Why did you leave out the one hypothetical that does fit (but is less probable): Bill and possibly Heather died within days after the rescue?
Or maybe Heather is the testimony project after all? I mean the similarities are striking: both are feminine, immortal and cheap CGI.

This Christmas special was a bit bland IMO. Maybe it's more fun if you have nostalgia for the very first doctor.

[Ginger]

I have seen two episodes of Doctor Whom. One with clockwork peoples and one about a child. And I like the people that Play As Doctor Whom. I like his sonic screwdriver. And his sciences.

[Soupspoon]

I have seen two episodes of Doctor Whom. One with clockwork peoples and one about a child. And I like the people that Play As Doctor Whom. I like his sonic screwdriver. And his sciences.

It is irresistible to try to work out which episodes you're talking about.

In Nu-Who, I'm guessing "Girl In The Fireplace" for the first (with the Peter Capaldi's breathless revisit of the concept of clockwork robots being a close second in likelihood, and the Space Whale episode after that, if we're not going so far as Cybermen territory). All bets are off if we look to pre-Millennial series, though, I can see in my mind's eye (but not name) at least three different options from pretty much all across the first seven regenerations (not even including Bertie Bassett, which I'm a bit hazy upon) and likely there were many, many more.

The one about a child, though... Need more clues. Tend to happen at Christmas. Was it the Christmas Carol one (where they 'jumped flew the shark')? Or the Lion The Witch And The Wardrobe one? Non-Xmas ones include the kid who traps people in drawing, or the one where people are trapped in a doll's house. Not so many examples pre-McGann, though. Except for actors playing the age of Susan, or Adrick.

Any more hints?

[Pfhorrest]

Are you my mummy?

[Ginger]

Non-Xmas ones include the kid who traps people in drawing, or the one where people are trapped in a doll's house.

Any more hints?

CORRECT: Episodes details in spoiler tags.

Spoiler:

It was the kid that does drawings and stuffs. And the clockwork Peoples... I don't know the name of the episode but like: Dr. Whom was helping a... lady I think? And the clockwork people came on their spaceship, which was run by... humany bits. And Dr. Whom kinda like the lady I think yet... he a Time Lord and she was just a lady? He gave her a speech somewhere along those lines I think anyways that was the episode re: clockwork peoples I saw.

[Soupspoon]

Yes, confirmed as Girl In The Fireplace for the non-child one (well, child at first, but mostly set after the 'girl' phase). A bit of a romp (not in a bad way) with certainly a dash of action, some sentiment and even a sense of loss, all with rather magnificent visuals. And used Tennant to the full, as his Doctor #10 personae.

On the other hand, Fear Her (the one with the child who drew) was not really top-notch. It was a stop-gap script, apparently, because a story by Stephen Fry had not materialised as planned. (I found it awkward, and perhaps if it had been in the forthcoming Sarah Jane Adventures it would have fit better.) It was also filmed whilst we were still a long way from the London Olympics, and at the time it seemed to be very much a Pep Talk for them (unknowing that they'd not be a huge problem).


I think you probably managed to watch (perhaps) both one of the top-three episodes (or five, maybe ten, YMMV, as it's arguable) and one of the bottom-three (less argument?). Of the new era, that is, but certainly of Tennant's long tenure.

It'd be interesting to see what you thought of Blink (famously a well-received 'standalone' episode that doesn't treat the viewer with kid-gloves), or of one of the better seriesseason-long story-arcs in a good old binge-watch. Plus you have all the 'other' Doctors to experience (you saw #10 in both, #9 might be a brief shock, #11 is different, #12 different again, with cameos or guest appearances by pre-Nu-Whos like #8.5, and #13 yet to to headline her own episode. (But you may like the idea of her, given our brief time talking about comic-book identities. After setting up the possibility in The Doctor's Wife. And possibly earlier with Jenny, the Doctor's 'Daughter'. And possibly also during prior "New Teeth?" monologues, in other post-regen scenes, though I think #11 was the first to say it explicitly, because of his hair.)

[Ginger]

I have a question about Doctor Whom: Is a gossipy rumor true that one of his/her forms/lives/bodies is now... an actual ladylike woman? 'Cause if that were true? I'd binge watches ALL of her episodes~ <3

[Pfhorrest]

The new reincarnation of the Doctor who is about to debut in the next season will be a woman, yes. So that might be a good time for you to start watching.

[rmsgrey]

Given that the new Doctor was last seen plummeting from a great height, it's unlikely, but not entirely impossible, that her casting is just trolling, and she'll regenerate again shortly into the first episode.

Yeah, I don't think it's likely.

The Doctor's nemesis, The Master has been a woman for a while, though...

Spoiler:

She has now been killed off by her previous self in a form of delayed suicide...

[Soupspoon]

Given that the new Doctor was last seen plummeting from a great height, it's unlikely, but not entirely impossible, that her casting is just trolling, and she'll regenerate again shortly into the first episode.

Post-regeneration 'buffer energy' probably helps. Like Ten's hand. And, indeed, Ten's hand becoming Rose's 10½. Pre-Elevenising Ten also cleared up possibly equivalent fall-injuries (to which he was quite robust, towards, considering how Four became Five, although one is left wondering how much of Eight's strength let him live until becoming War). With Eight having been killed, before given the revived opportunity to become War, and Turn Left showing that there are other mundane factors that can be absolutely fatal (never mind the intentions with the Impossible Astronaut and scene starting off The Pilot).

And think about the averted fall in Death In Heaven, if the Tardis isn't too Eleventh Houred to do that. (There's also Flying Sharks, other friendly aerial units (UNIT's?), either the Doctor's or someone else's abilities with matter transporters or even a wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey deus ex.) That fall is likely already keyed into a carefully planned grounding (NPI!) for how Thirteen deals with adventure.

I don't think the series could survive a quick-fire double-regen (well, outside of Curse Of Fatal Death-type parody), and await with interest/trepidation to see how they recover from the cliff-hanger. It probably won't be in a godawful manner, nor an actually inspired one. My expectations are exceptionally mediocre, in this regard, leaving me with wiggle-room for moderate surprise or disappointment when the time eventually comes.

(As to starting to seriously watch the Female Doctor season, it's probably doable. They do tend to reset and ((dis)continuity nods and back-references aside) make it a case of "You can start watching from here" upon each new version. That said, if you're only watching Thirteen because of who she is, you're missing the whole fun of The Doctor in general and you wouldn't even get to see where this differs from an always-was-female character like Dr Quinn, Medicine Woman or Xena, Warrior Princess. And you' ll be missing out on the likes of Blink!)

[rmsgrey]

(As to starting to seriously watch the Female Doctor season, it's probably doable. They do tend to reset and ((dis)continuity nods and back-references aside) make it a case of "You can start watching from here" upon each new version. That said, if you're only watching Thirteen because of who she is, you're missing the whole fun of The Doctor in general and you wouldn't even get to see where this differs from an always-was-female character like Dr Quinn, Medicine Woman or Xena, Warrior Princess. And you' ll be missing out on the likes of Blink!)

Yeah, we've seen immediately post-regeneration Time Lords shrug off automatic weapons fire before now, so I'm not really expecting the ground to kill her...

As for the soft reset, that's going to be even more so with this transition since they're also handing off to a new show-runner - as last happened with the 10/11 transition - so they're even less beholden to prior continuity than usual.

I'm not sure whether the TARDIS is going to show up at the end of the first story, or is going to be missing for a while - it seems unlikely that it's just going to turn up again immediately, so we should expect at least one story where she's not around.

[Soupspoon]

Well, it's imminent. Sunday 7th. Though I may well not get to see the season premiere (slipping into leftpondian, there) until a few days later due to various things, and I've no idea how BBC Worldwide is scheduling on foreign outlets.

But I thought I'd bump the thread anyway.

And to add some meat to the bone, an impromptu (and maybe at odds with prior opinions) "best of each season/doctor" list.

Spoiler:

My rules: Main season episodes only, so none of the Specials, mini-episodes or intersticial placeholders, though some of them are otherwise worth mentioning. Individual episodes only, not paired (again, rejects some powerful episodes). NuWho seasons only because virtually everything up to and including the McGann movie fails the first two tests.

Season 1/Ninth Doctor: Dalek. A choice limited by being unable to choose double-eps. IMO also a better 'introduction' than Rose, if you don't intend to spoonfeed the premise quite so much.

Season 2: The Girl In The Fireplace.
Season 3/Tenth Doctor: Blink - despite being the classic "Doctor lite", it is a classic Timey Wimey, and mostly newbie-friendly too.
Season 4: difficult choice between The Doctor's Daughter (teaches the new viewer the philosophy of "Run!") and Midnight (closed-room tense self-contained piece that shows how the Doctor doesn't always save the day). Plumping for the latter for the bonus of also being Donna-lite.

Season 5: poor series for choice. Finally rejected The Eleventh Hour (TARDIS-Lite) to land upon Amy's Choice.
Season 6/Eleventh Doctor: The Doctor's Wife (TARDIS-prominent?) - I'm beginning to think I just like the restricted/bounded settings
Season 7: Asylum Of The Daleks - but a reluctant choice in another bad series to choose in.

Season 8/Twelfth Doctor: Mummy On The Orient Express - …
Season 9: too many doubled-up episodes, not currently too sure about the remainder - no 'best'.
Season 10: Knock Knock - there's that personal preference again

Season 11/Thirteenth Doctor: TBD

[Mutex]

I might watch it. I stopped watching DW years ago, but I'll check it out now it has a new showrunner.