The Dark Tower - Mission failure

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#HBC | YOLOSWAG
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:39 pm UTC

@Laserguy

Your analysis of SDK starts off with calling lots of his play "very townie". You then go on to say his refusal to explain himself doesn't look townie. What are you communicating here, i.e., are you saying you're unsure of SDK? What of his play after refusing to explain? I found it weird to see you comment that a lot of his play looks townie then point out something scummy about him and leave it at that.

@Carlington

When you say you're worried about bessie "tunneling too hard", what exactly worries you about it? I get that you view it as uncharacteristic of her play, but do you mean "bessie is tunneling too hard and it's unlike her meta" or "her tunneling is distracting her from looking elsewhere" or some other meaning I didn't lay out here?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:bessie, you seem to think I'm a Serial Killer because I am downplaying the likelihood right? What is your opinion on Zyth, who made this comment implying they thought an SK unlikely, I think:
With the numbers of 8/3/1/1, why is it likely that there is an SK in this game? In the worst case scenario: a mislynch and mafia and SK both kill a member of town, we are in mylo on Day 2, that's pretty crazy.
How about FrozenFlame with his comments made about it? Or most recently mpolo?
This, IMO, is one of the most concerning statements I've seen so far. When I read this, I asked myself, 'What is jimbob trying to do here by pointing out other players to bessie with similar behavior? Does he actually think that information will help him glean any idea as to her alignment?' I really don't like the, 'Well, what about them?' factor behind this quote nor am I sure of what he's trying to gain by posting this.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:46 pm UTC

Regarding your activity jimbob, noted. Also for whoever asked, no, abductors do not reveal alignment/role when abducting players.

At the moment, I think it's likely we have at least one scum between jimbob and dimochka. I DO find it interesting that a lot of people (bessie, mpolo, Carlington come to mind) have mentioned a gut feeling about jimbob but there hasn't been much of a substantiated push against him. I don't know what to make of that atm, but it's worth mentioning.

FOS jimbob

If I wasn't voting dimochka, I'd be looking at him as a play.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:47 pm UTC

Aah this is great. I'm so glad we have so much content on D1, and all focusing on me! Gives me a lot to work with.

First, I'm town. And not exactly an exciting role. I don't plan to claim because I'd rather me lynched than someone else with a stronger role, unless my fellow townies agree with my reads that I'm posting next. Sidenote: What I did looks like a great play for a jester, I'll try it next time!

ok, player analyses (in order in first post)

Jimbob - joke vote on laserguy. doesn't think SK makes sense (probably not sk). misspelling of name (imo doesn't mean anything). more SK talk that supports him not being SK. Arguing with SDK. Backtracking his argument re: SK (I don't mind the original post about more recent games having one, but the post seems defensive - the one about the setup comments being poorly phrased). Initially defends my posts because I'm trying to explain myself, then apparently doesn't like my post about bessie and boomfrog being town (because I didn't explain myself? sidenote: they're still town in my book). Neutral, doesn't feel very townie.

mpolo - thinks there will be a good number of independent roles. feels jimbob is odd (I didn't notice this until my re-read). explains his thoughts. Something specific stands out to me that isn't worth claiming if what I think is true, but all I'll say is I think he's town.

SDK - very abrasive (I don't mean this in a negative way, just feels like the right word), pushing buttons. focused on me early on which is perfectly fine. what is less ok is that his thoughts around my post seem to be regarding putting joke votes and explaining myself. I don't see how that's scummy. But at least he has an opinion. Seems to ask a lot of questions but once again I only see him focusing on me, and that part worries me more. Neutral.

LaserGuy - first post just intro, nothing stands out. makes a good point about jimbob not reacting to a 4-vote wagon (and this is, indeed, not at all common for these forums). didn't understand my vote (which i explained). provides reads - I agree with his SDK read, he's asking a lot of questions but refusing to offer much in return. Re:Jimbob he noticed the same thing I did. Points out my focus on independents (fwiw it's not intentional, but I like to try to make sense of the setup). Worried about my two reads (frankly, I don't care. I have my reads and I have my opinions regarding how some people act, coupled with how I've seen them act in the past. Explaining it not only nullifies the point but also potentially allows other people to read them better in the future). Would be great to see more opinions. Neutral leaning town.

Carlington - one post total, mostly recaps. would like to see more questions for people. neutral, leaning town (because I didn't see any weird inferences that scum would be interested in making).

GoP - no content (except an intro post), so no opinion.

Bessie - typical town bessie. clearly not holding much back and posting her opinions and pushing people. I don't recall seeing her as scum, to be fair, but nothing stood out to me. Towniest read of the bunch.

Plytho - reacts exactly the way I would've expected to the votes on LaserGuy. Actually asking questions and not backing town from them easily (like I did for some reason). Would like to see reads. Townie.

YoloSwag - something about his last two posts really pings me. They feel very nonchalant and unconcerned. Feeling slighly scummy.

FrozenFlame - I found his initial posts more general and not really helpful to the game (not in a bad way, more that they revealed his experience / playstyle rather than looking at people). Would like to see more reads. Nothing stood out so far. Neutral

Zyth - I obviously don't like his vote on me and disagree with his reasoning, but it does not stand out as scummy. He is asking a lot of questions, and his playstyle seems similar to FrozenFlame's. Question for you - what feels like fluff? Give me a specific example. I agree that I didn't provide much content, but I got discussion going. Neutral, similar bucket to FF.

Boomfrog - All I'll say is his playstyle aligns with what i've seen in the past, and I don't think his answers would be phrased the same way if he were scum. I also get wary when people point at me as town/scum without real explanations (feels like buddying, and I've been tricked by that before), but my opinion hasn't changed.

Unvote (did I even have a vote?)
Vote jimbob

Not a self-preservation vote because I think my lynch, while not beneficial to town, will help figure out who was opportunistic vs. actually finding me scummy. But obviously I'd rather lynch scum. In this case, I think jimbob was doing similar type of buddying to me that it looked like I was doing to Boomfrog, and he's been more defensive than I would expect him to be.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:53 pm UTC

Unofficial Votals:
Plytho - 1 (FrozenFlame) T-6
Dimochka - 5 (SDK, Yoloswag, Zyth, Boomfrog, LaserGuy) T-2
Jimbobmacdoodle - 2 (Bessie, Dimochka) T-5
Carlington - 1 (Jimbobmacdoodle) T-6
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:22 pm UTC

Vote jimbob

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:28 pm UTC

dimochka wrote:FoS FrozenFlame for being 3rd on the wagon, which is somehow scum pretty often.

8-3-1-1 could work, but I might want to go back and see what sabrar thinks of independents / SKs. A cult isn't out of the question, is it? (should probably check if it's in the rules but i'm late to work right now). I have zero flavor knowledge so this will be interesting.

Also, I'm not a PGO... Or am I?

dimochka wrote:EBWOP: no cult because no alignment changing conditions. So unless I see otherwise, 8-3-1-1 makes sense to me. And that last 1 might be a jester (just a hunch).

These posts, the FOS on FF which honestly does not help the game(assuming 3rd on a wagon = scum) and the tons of setup speculation that follow, also do not help the game and when you add in the fact that you yourself are unsure of your own speculations on the setup, it becomes even more useless, as it would be the same as if you never said it. These are fluff to me. Adding on, throwing out suggestions of a jester and then saying it's just a hunch gives me the feel that you are being nervous about what you post, which with your overly defensive posts later on to explain the PGO stuff, simply makes it worse.

Also, I'm having issues reading laserguy. He has his eyes on a lot of people right from the start of the game(jimbob, dimochka and SDK). Posts like these:
LaserGuy wrote:WIFOM on your first post? IGMEOY dimochka.

LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Why didn't you answer LaserGuy with a serious answer?

Didn't feel like it.

So, active lurking? IGMEOY too.

Seems fairly passive aggressive and I'm not too sure what he stands to gain from them. In his reads post, he doesn't have a conclusion on SDK and jimbob's alignment, which is fairly weird, especially since he calls SDK townie initially and then ends off with SDK's refusal to explain being not townie. He later states that he has SDK as town and jimbob as a scum lean. Though, his post does show that he is actually thinking about the game, for example, with dimochka, he brought in a new perspective of dimochka being especially interested in neutrals(which personally, I just see it as fluffing to make it look like he's actually doing something). For now, he'll remain in my null pile.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:28 pm UTC

@dimochka
Could you explain your laserguy town lean in more detail?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:32 pm UTC

SDK wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Some reads so far...

Your thought process seems fair enough, but you don't come to any conclusion on me or jimbob. What's the read?


I thought it was clear from context, but apparently it wasn't.

SDK wrote:Also, I asked you a question:
Spoiler:
SDK wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Why didn't you answer LaserGuy with a serious answer?


Didn't feel like it.


So, active lurking? IGMEOY too.

Active lurking seems a bit of a stretch. Do you actually want a more serious answer, or are you just throwing mud here?


Funny, I seem to recall asking you a question at some point too. What was your answer to that again?

If I didn't want a serious answer at the time, I wouldn't have asked you in the first place. Frankly, I'm not sure that there is much to be gained by your explaining the vote at this point. My original question generated useful content regardless of your willingness to respond to it, though, so it wasn't a wholly unproductive exercise. You'll note that I haven't followed up with YOLO or Frozen on this either, which is simply because the discussion at hand I find more pertinent.

SDK wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Laserguy, what are your reads on SDK and jumbob?


SDK is probably town. jimbob is leaning scum.


That's surprising given your previous post. Can you explain which aspects of what you said before led you to that conclusion?


As I said in my earlier post, reviewing your play as a whole, I find most of your content to be very townie. On the specific issue of how you've dealt with your early vote, your play seems to have been opaque for the sake of being opaque, which I don't associate with townie play at all. But it might also just be that you're trying to generate content by being a jerk, which, from what I gather, is well within your meta. The only person besides me who has really had a problem with how you've behaved is jimbob, who I don't particularly trust, especially since he had some selfish motivations for trying to deflect you. So, on balance, I'm inclined to put you into the townie column for now, with some lingering reservations.

@YOLO, hopefully that answers your question as well, but if there's anything specific you'd like me to follow up on, feel free to ask.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby dimochka » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:55 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:@dimochka
Could you explain your laserguy town lean in more detail?

Will do later today (and reply to your response to my post) as well as address any other questions. More than happy to address other questions parts in more detail, just point them out please (that's to everyone) since I am leading the votals.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby BoomFrog » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:57 pm UTC

You make a persuasive argument Fry @Domichka

Unvote
Vote jimbobmacdoodle


Carlington wrote:Wubba lubba dub dub!
I'm so sorry to hear that, I wish I could help.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby FrozenFlame » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:35 pm UTC

Sorry about the inactivity these past two days. My girlfriend surprised me with a visit and between spending time with her and some late work nights thanks to my boss piling a bunch of new cases on to me, I haven't had the time to keep pace. I just finished reading everything and wanted to respond to a few things first but right now I need to go back through the thread to really digest some of the longer posts people have offered with comprehensive read lists. Lot of back and forth I need to read carefully and respond to so don't take this post as being my comprehensive "I'm caught up and here's what I think" post.

SDK wrote:I've never heard of an adbuctor, and I can't find it on mafiascum wiki either. What is that role?

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:For whoever asked, I am male. An abductor is an SK variant where instead of killing players he removes them from the game. If he dies, the abducted players return.


Thanks for covering me here bro. Abductor is an SK with "temp" kills that remove players from the game without flipping them a la gravedigger or similar roles. Removed players are considered "dead" for all wincon and night action purposes and cannot post or communicate with anyone still alive until the abductor dies. If that happens, they return to the game as if nothing had happened to them. Excellent role for adding a third party in small games where two true killing roles presents early LYLO issues.

LaserGuy wrote:Hi everyone! Four votes on D1? I didn't realize I was so intimidating.

YOLOSWAG, SDK, FrozenFlame, why did you decide to vote for me? jimbob, IGMEOY for keeping your joke vote on me after a wagon formed around it.


I love early wagons because I love early pressure. Gotta rustle jimmies/see how much it takes to rustle jimmies if you ever want people to step on the gas D1. Long way of saying I blindly hopped on an early RVS wagon because I wanted a reaction.

LaserGuy wrote:FrozenFang, YOLOSWAG, Zyth, what are your preferred pronouns (he/she/they, etc.)?


Male pronouns so he/him/his/etc.

plytho wrote:
SDK wrote:
FrozenFlame wrote:Breaking promises and FoSing me in your first post? Never before has OMGUS been more justified

Unvote: Laserguy

Vote: plytho

Was this vote supposed to be for dimochka?
When your first post includes boasting of extensive mafia experience it would be pretty awkward to make such a silly mistake in your second post. My assumption is that it’s just deliberate D1 prodding. Off course I’d like to hear FrozenFlame’s explanation too.


That vote was totally supposed to be for dimochka. I was messing with formatting in my post before I typed in the vote command and got anchored on plytho because he had a quote nested in one of the posts I was quoting. I can own up to the fact that that's a rookie mistake to make after claiming to have extensive mafia experience, but it's the truth though so feel free to judge me all you'd like. I'm confident I'll be able to repair my credibility as the game goes on and show you all I'm not a complete scrub full of puffery and bluster =P

With that said Unvote: Plytho

Not going to jump on dimochka right away considering he looks like hes at L-2. Need to read his bigger post more thoroughly before I come down on that. Though I must say I was a fan of SDK's take here:

Spoiler:
SDK wrote:dimochka is probably scum, Take 1.

dimochka wrote:FoS FrozenFlame for being 3rd on the wagon, which is somehow scum pretty often.

dimochka wrote:Also, I'm not a PGO... Or am I?

Both of these are fine if serious. They're even fine if joking.

What's not fine is his explanations of either.
dimochka wrote:Often D1 votes have little basis other than "I didn't see much content from him/her" or "he/she seems to be active lurking". For that reason, I think it might. I think it's more so that 3rd position that intuitively feels safer for some reason. If anything I'd say it has more merit when there is little contribution than when there is an ample information/claims available.

dimochka wrote:FWIW this is in reference to the Pokemon game two months ago where I claimed PGO in my first D1 post. I was not PGO. and I was town. Does not mean anything regarding my role this game, but figured I'd explain.

Both seem overly cautious and over explained for what they're worth (which is basically nothing). The wishy-washy nature of the first quote and the nervous self-interest of the second ping me like crazy.

dimochka then continues to make joke votes with no substance and continues to not engage the underlying core of the thread.

Cases are so easy when we're only a page in. I think there was a time that I was more sure of a scum read page 2, though I couldn't tell you when.


Plan is to go through everything again and have some actual reads up by tomorrow.

@ YOLO is jimbobwagon the truth tho?

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:46 pm UTC

@frozen

I'm very confident there is at least one scum between jimbob and dimochka to the point I'd advise the vig to off the other should we hit town today. I go back and forth as to who the better play is. I'm down with both wagons and know town can get something fruitful from that direction; a dimochka/jimbob focus provides town a reliable safety net. In addition, nearly the entire game has commented on both players which should prove useful for post-flip analysis.

FYI: When players get lynched on this site, they don't flip 'til the beginning of the next day if I remember correctly.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby BoomFrog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:29 am UTC

True, but since this particular name is nightless people need to get their actions in anyway.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby bessie » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:32 am UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:FYI: When players get lynched on this site, they don't flip 'til the beginning of the next day if I remember correctly.
It's up to the mod, but I think this is true for every game I have played. From the rules:
8. At the start of each day phase I will reveal the alignment and roles of all players killed since the previous day phase.


Hey, Carlington finally posted!
Carlington wrote:Zyth: He thinks 8/3/1/1 with an SK seems unlikely, and I agree, as it does seem to have a lot of potential for town to lose early.

Carlington wrote:FrozenFlame: He has pretty strong feelings on setups and the balance thereof, but they may not be of much use in a new meta-context. He did make observations I thought astute regarding the frequency of killing indies, but pushed it a little hard. For D1, if it weren't for the differences in meta, I'd be willing to think this was downplaying 3rd party kills.

Carlington, you agree with Zyth that a SK is unlikely, but you think FrozenFlame is downplaying third party kills. What is the conclusion you draw from this observation of FrozenFlame? What’s your guess as to the setup? And specifically, do you think we have an independent with a kill in this game?

Carlington wrote:bessie: She is a little time-poor at the moment, but I am worried she's tunneling in too hard on this jimbob thing about SKs. Typically she will treat all the players to some scrutiny before zeroing in, so going straight to one player is uncharacteristic, imo. Still, I'm willing to give it a little time.
Show me where I accused jimbob or anyone else of being a serial killer. Why are you so fixated on a serial killer?

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:@Carlington

When you say you're worried about bessie "tunneling too hard", what exactly worries you about it? I get that you view it as uncharacteristic of her play, but do you mean "bessie is tunneling too hard and it's unlike her meta" or "her tunneling is distracting her from looking elsewhere" or some other meaning I didn't lay out here?
I’m interested in your answer to this too.

Re: my read/vote on jimbob.
SDK wrote:I think his logic is correct, and I'm not sure why you're attacking him on that point, but damage control could be true based on my memory alone. I'll try to find time to read into that today.
I don’t agree with the general opinion that D1 is too early to be able to identify any type of threat (mafia, serial killer, etc). I don’t like the mindset that D1 we should only be looking for mafia because we won’t be able to spot an independent threat anyway. My mafia expertise may be more limited than most of you, but in my experience a good player (not necessarily me) can spot scumtells from anti-town players of any type on D1. And I disagree with jimbob even more with regards to this game in particular because it’s a nightless setup so I assume any factions with chat are already chatting. It should be even easier for our expert players to pick out the indie scum working all by himself looking to be persuaded and just trying to survive, because the mafia is already coordinating the lynch wagon. And like a townie, a mafia player doesn’t need to survive to win. So SDK, I don’t understand why you don’t see my suspicion of jimbob, especially because you are one of those mafia master players of which I speak.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:Quick hit for jimbob while I'm reading the thread, I see he's here: What is your opinion of bessie?
Leaning town. I regularly see her tunnel on somebody in other games to a greater or lesser extent (it looks like I'm the victim here), so I don't feel like that's scummy coming from her. Meta read on her makes me feel the same way I do usually about her, i.e. townie. Admittedly, I can't actually remember the last time bessie was scum in a game when I wasn't the mod, so this may just be how she always feels.
Wine, but for the sake of our new players, I am blessed/cursed with the townie meta, maybe because I am almost always town. I haven’t been non-town for over a year (jimbob, I was replacement mafia in Secret Santa 2015, and I requested to replace for mafia because I had accidently read one line of a spoiler in Gojoe so I knew the identities of the mafia team).

And jimbob, now that Carlington’s here and also downplaying the threat of a serial killer I may let up on you a little. :)

LaserGuy wrote:bessie as townie is a very safe read; she has an extremely townie meta and is likely to look town at first blush every game she plays.
Read D1 of Wheel of Time 2 for my scummiest D1. And I actively did not try not to be lynched. Nonetheless, townie-meta-curse kicked in...

dimochka wrote:Bessie - typical town bessie. clearly not holding much back and posting her opinions and pushing people. I don't recall seeing her as scum, to be fair, but nothing stood out to me. Towniest read of the bunch.
Pfft.

Unofficial Votals:

Carlington (1) : jimbobmacdoodle
dimochka (3) : SDK, #HBC Zyth, LaserGuy
jimbobmacdoodle (4) : bessie, dimochka, #HBC YOLOSWAG, BoomFrog

Not voting: Carlington, FrozenFlame, Gopher of Pern, mpolo, plytho

Ninja'd by BoomFrog.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby Gopher of Pern » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:53 am UTC

Sorry for not posting. At a conference, and only now got some time to post.

First thoughts on my skim read:

jimbob does feel very suss to me. They way they are being a bit defensive about things rubs me the wrong way. However, they did sorta slip that they forgot that scum have day chat, but whether that is deliberate or not, I can't tell. For the moment, I will trust them.

mpolo has acted pretty much like mpolo. Got nothing townie or scummy from them.

SDK is being a bit caustic, but has provided content, and is not just asking questions, which I feel he does when he's scum.

Laserguy seemed to defend themselves well, not going overboard, and has contributed pretty well, so they are a bit towny in my book.

That's all I got time for now, will hopefully get time later tonight.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby Carlington » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:04 am UTC

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:
@Carlington

When you say you're worried about bessie "tunneling too hard", what exactly worries you about it? I get that you view it as uncharacteristic of her play, but do you mean "bessie is tunneling too hard and it's unlike her meta" or "her tunneling is distracting her from looking elsewhere" or some other meaning I didn't lay out here?
I mean the second, that her tunneling may be distracting her from looking elsewhere, not so much the first since it's not a gigantic departure from her meta.

bessie wrote:Hey, Carlington finally posted!
Carlington wrote:Zyth: He thinks 8/3/1/1 with an SK seems unlikely, and I agree, as it does seem to have a lot of potential for town to lose early.

Carlington wrote:FrozenFlame: He has pretty strong feelings on setups and the balance thereof, but they may not be of much use in a new meta-context. He did make observations I thought astute regarding the frequency of killing indies, but pushed it a little hard. For D1, if it weren't for the differences in meta, I'd be willing to think this was downplaying 3rd party kills.

Carlington, you agree with Zyth that a SK is unlikely, but you think FrozenFlame is downplaying third party kills. What is the conclusion you draw from this observation of FrozenFlame? What’s your guess as to the setup? And specifically, do you think we have an independent with a kill in this game?
I realised on reading this that I didn't actually include my thoughts on setup last post, which I had intended to do. I think that an SK is unlikely if we are in an 8/3/1/1 setup in particular because, as pointed out, a mislynch and two NKs hitting town N1 means MYLO D2, which seems too harsh. I think we could be in 8/3/1/1 with no third party killing powers (or maybe, as the thought just struck me, some conditional third party kill like even night or something). We could also be in 9/3/1, but that seems too hard for mafia, and then 8/4/anything seems too easy for mafia. 9/4/0 is possible, but seems too plain for this forum.

Carlington wrote:bessie: She is a little time-poor at the moment, but I am worried she's tunneling in too hard on this jimbob thing about SKs. Typically she will treat all the players to some scrutiny before zeroing in, so going straight to one player is uncharacteristic, imo. Still, I'm willing to give it a little time.
Show me where I accused jimbob or anyone else of being a serial killer. Why are you so fixated on a serial killer?

Show me where I said you accused jimbob of being an SK first. My only concern is that you're devoting a lot of your attention to your perception that jimbob is downplaying an SK, and that this is to the detriment of your overall scumhunting.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby plytho » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:48 am UTC

I've been busier than expected the last two days but I'm working on a reads post.

First some thoughts:

Gopher of Pern wrote:jimbob does feel very suss to me. They way they are being a bit defensive about things rubs me the wrong way. However, they did sorta slip that they forgot that scum have day chat, but whether that is deliberate or not, I can't tell. For the moment, I will trust them.
Where did you see that slip?

dimochka wrote:Plytho - reacts exactly the way I would've expected to the votes on LaserGuy. Actually asking questions and not backing town from them easily (like I did for some reason). Would like to see reads. Townie.
How dare you say I'm not backing town!?
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby plytho » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:54 am UTC

Reads list:

Jimbobmacdoodle: Has been on a long non-scum streak. Him being scum for the first time in more than a year might explain why regulars are feeling things are off. This is meta. I'm not getting a scum vibe from jimbob based on his posts. On the scummier end because of the meta.

Mpolo: "forgot" that mafia can coördinate during the day. @regulars: would scum!mpolo post stuff like that to mislead town? I don’t have much of a read on him. Neutral for now.

SDK: Am I overthinking things when I look at SDK's first post (before official day start) and see him distancing himself from his buddie boomfrog? Or is that too far into rule-breaking territory to start playing the game before the official start?

I’m fine with this response to LaserGuy’s question:
SDK wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:YOLOSWAG, SDK, FrozenFlame, why did you decide to vote for me?

"Yeehaw" didn't convince you?

Which I read as ‘I liked YOLO’s first post so I decided to join his random wagon’.
I’m less fine with his response to jimbob’s follow up
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Why didn't you answer LaserGuy with a serious answer?

SDK wrote:Didn't feel like it.

I can’t really articulate why.

On SDK’sreads post on dimochka: I don’t feel the evidence is that strong. Those explanations don’t feel overly cautious or over explained to me. I do agree that dimochka’s vote/unvote for jimbob was weird.

For now I’m putting SDK on the scummy end of neutral.


LaserGuy: I like his reads post. I’m not bothered by the fact that he doesn’t immediately put SDK and jimbob in a town or scum category. Unlike SDK I wasn’t surprised when LaserGuy put SDK on the townie side and jimbob on the scummy side. LaserGuy feels pretty townie for now.

Dimochka: The PGO comment in her first post feels like wagon-bait. Talks a lot about jesters.
dimochka wrote:8-3-1-1 makes sense to me. And that last 1 might be a jester (just a hunch).

dimochka wrote:For some reason I just think that Sabrar would toss a jester in because he likes that role, but I could be completely off base here.

dimochka wrote:I am pretty certain that there are some kind of independents. SK is almost a given. No clue what the other would be but either survivor or jester IMO. Jesters are indeed annoying.

dimochka wrote:What I meant is someone, who I thought may be Sabrar, mentioned jester a number of times in game as well as out of game. That was my "I might be completely off base" part - it could've been someone else entirely. I have no information about a potential jester, and I don't plan to claim to be one.

dimochka wrote:First, I'm town. And not exactly an exciting role. I don't plan to claim because I'd rather me lynched than someone else with a stronger role, unless my fellow townies agree with my reads that I'm posting next. Sidenote: What I did looks like a great play for a jester, I'll try it next time!
Some of these are in response to questions but about half aren’t. Could this be a jester play? Also, calling yourself town a lot feels scummy for some reason. My read is scummy with a side of indie. I don’t think the attention dimochka’s getting is unwanted.

Carlington: I don’t have a read on him based on that one post. I did notice this comment in his reads list was dated, at that point the LaserGuy wagon was entirely gone:
Carlington wrote:LaserGuy: I think he has more votes than posts!


Gopher of Pern: barely posted, confirms the gut read other regulars have on jimbob. Neutral

Bessie: probably town. I’d expect regulars to notice if she was scum for the first time in more than a year. I haven’t seen anything in her posts that feels odd.

#HBC | YOLOSWAG: Has a high vote/post ratio. I’m not sure about this post though:

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:@frozen

I'm very confident there is at least one scum between jimbob and dimochka to the point I'd advise the vig to off the other should we hit town today. I go back and forth as to who the better play is. I'm down with both wagons and know town can get something fruitful from that direction; a dimochka/jimbob focus provides town a reliable safety net. In addition, nearly the entire game has commented on both players which should prove useful for post-flip analysis.

FYI: When players get lynched on this site, they don't flip 'til the beginning of the next day if I remember correctly.


It feels sensible at first but it might be a scum attempt to get rid of three town by D2. I’m definitely not confident enough about jimbob and dimochka to support this strategy.

FrozenFlame: Nothing stands out as scummy in his few posts. I look forward to his reads. Neutral

#HBC | Zyth: Asks a lot of good questions. I like his look at LaserGuy. His content feels genuine and original. leaning town

BoomFrog: I can’t really read much on him based on his posts so far. Has sort of been voting with the flow (like YOLOSWAG) starting with a joke/serious vote on me, then joining the pressure on dimochka and now on jimbob. Neutral

@BoomFrog: I believe you've been misspelling dimochka

@Bessie: I know you like town to scum lists. I'll try to make one later today.

I haven't really checked this post for spelling/capitalization. I have to go now.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby mpolo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:56 pm UTC

I honestly jumped into this without noticing the nightlessness. Bessie is then right, we might be able to detect some collusion, if we get lucky. I just got back from vacation, and should be posting more regularly, but i have a (stupid) computer problem to solve right now, so will have to wait, probably until tomorrow, for something more substantive.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby BoomFrog » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:59 pm UTC

plytho wrote:BoomFrog: I can’t really read much on him based on his posts so far. Has sort of been voting with the flow (like YOLOSWAG) starting with a joke/serious vote on me, then joining the pressure on dimochka and now on jimbob. Neutral
For the record I was the first "Vote" on dimochka but I made it unofficially because I was still serious about my vote on you.

@BoomFrog: I believe you've been misspelling dimochka
Thanks, I'm mentally mispronouncing it too.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby SDK » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:41 pm UTC

Sorry guys, meant to get to this today, but now I'm out of time. Deadline's Tuesday next week, so I'll for sure get a solid post Monday. Quickly now...

#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:At the moment, I think it's likely we have at least one scum between jimbob and dimochka.

I've never really understood this idea, though I see it a lot. What makes you think that, aside from just playing the odds?

LaserGuy wrote:Funny, I seem to recall asking you a question at some point too. What was your answer to that again?

:lol:

To do:
- read page 3 again
- read jimbob
- recheck dimochka's big post
- post a full reads list before nightfall
- lynch scum
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:52 pm UTC

So, given I've got spare time now, and there's already a wealth of content, it seems a good time to do my first proper reread, one player at a time. My notes are in the spoiler.

Spoiler:
bessie: Thinks 3 Mafia, 2-3 indies, including a SK likely. Talks about general SK, indie, and cult-style setups on xkcd. Queries my poor wording re. changed setup. Found LaserGuy's reaction to wagon composed and interesting, my reaction also interesting. Finds my comments re. SK or otherwise suspicious (I think). Prods Carlington, queries seriousness of votes. Doesn't like my vote and doesn't follow my meaning with comments. Votes me. Thinks my posts are damage control. Disagrees with mine and mpolo's logic re. finding an SK. Says she didn't think I was an SK and queries why I believed she did. Prods Carlington with lots of questions regarding the setup and his opinions. Further explains her disagreement over finding SK D1.

BoomFrog: Votes plytho in first post, stating it as serious subsequently. Found dimochka's joke vote "unfounded and unfunny and given up too quickly" and would vote for him as well. Agrees with SDK's read on plytho (which was simply thinks that he is town). Switches vote to me apparently based on dimochka's argument.

Carlington: Last player to post, and starts with a big reads post. Post includes general thoughts on all players, but relatively few conclusions. Thinks bessie's tunnelling is distracting her from looking elsewhere. Posts some basic thoughts on setup and likeliness (or otherwise) of an SK. Points out that bessie has falsely accused him of accusing her of accusing me of being SK.

dimochka: Joke votes plytho, FoSses FrozenFlame for being 3rd on the LaserGuy bandwagon (I assume these are both jokes at least) and claims not PGO (WIFOM). Thinks 8-3-1-1, with a jester as possible. Defends his 3rd on the wagon comment as actually having some merit on D1. Tentatively agrees with me about this not being the case after all. Explains PGO claim as reference to PyPokemon. Pretty certain about indies, thinks SK a given. Switches vote to me for having content(?). Explains jester speculation. Explains vote on me was not serious. Subsequently states that he backed off the vote for no good reason. Thinks bessie and BoomFrog are town. Doesn't plan to claim because other roles are likely more useful. Reads post, Only states Yoloswag as scummy. Votes me as a neutral read, and not as a defensive vote.

FrozenFlame: Clearly dislikes the style of set up here. Spends most of his opening post introducing himself and discussing this. Jumps on early LaserGuy wagon. Switches to voting plytho (but meant to vote dimochka). Really doesn't like jesters. Explains LaserGuy vote as an attempt to generate a reaction. Likes SDK's case on dimochka.

Gopher of Pern: Has flavour knowledge. Thinks 1 SK, 1 Survivor, 3 Mafia most likely. Suspicious of me but willing to trust me due to a slip. Finds mpolo more or less same as normal. SDK probably not scum. LaserGuy also townie.

Yoloswag: Votes LaserGuy. Thinks 3 Mafia likely. Switches vote to dimochka without explanation. Asks for my read on bessie. Asks for more from LaserGuy on SDK and from Carlington on bessie and her tunnelling. Dislikes my request for info from bessie re. her opinions on other players and SKs. FoSses me after finding it interesting that others had bad gut feelings about me. Upgrades this to a vote on me in his next post with no further explanation (presumably because dimochka posted a reads list?). Pretty certain that one of me or dimochka is scum and that the other should be vigged if the other flips Town.

Zyth: Thinks SK in 8-3-1-1 setup very unlikely. Votes dimochka and finds plytho newbie town in early post. Explains dimochka vote due to defensiveness and full of fluff. Not sure about me and LaserGuy, but finds SDK as townie lean. Challenges dimochka over BoomFrog town read. Prods Carlington and LaserGuy for reads. Explains delayed explanation for dimochka vote. Explains thoughts on LaserGuy as null read. Prods dimochka for LaserGuy read explanation.

LaserGuy: Asks Yoloswag, SDK and FrozenFlame why they voted for him in his opening post and IGMEOYs me for keeping my vote on the wagon. Thinks SK entirely feasible, and definitely at least one independent. IGMEOYs dimochka for WIFOM/PGO comment. Challenges me on my continued vote, and explains his concerns with it and my subsequent comments. IGMEOYs SDK for active lurking. Confused by dimochka's apparent joke vote on me. Finds SDKs content mostly townie, but odd that he didn't feel like explaining further when I prodded him. Restates earlier comments about me. Points out dimochka's focus on neutrals, finding it odd. Also points out the weird Pokemon comment. Finds dimochka's reads very random, and votes dimochka. Finds SDK probably town, me leaning scum. Argues a bit with SDK about his refusal to answer his question.

mpolo: Thinks a good amount of independent roles likely. Finds me a little "off" but won't be voting for me in the short term. Didn't like me big post about the joke vote. Thinks we won't be able to differentiate different types of scum at this point, but backs off this later.

plytho: Votes Yoloswag for joke voting for someone with a joke vote. Asks me why I don't unvote before making up my mind. Thinks FrozenFlame mistaken vote on him is just prodding. Clarifies his earlier comment about me and unvoting. Asks Gopher for my slip. Not getting a scummy vibe from my posts, but meta means he trusts others scummy feelings about me. Fine with SDK joining the wagon but less fine with his response to my challenge for why he didn't answer LaserGuy. Has SDK as scummy end of neutral. LaserGuy as townie. Wonders whether dimochka might be a jester but also could be scummy. Thinks people would notice if bessie weren't town. Doesn't support Yoloswag's vig suggestion. Likes Zyth's comments about LaserGuy.

SDK: Immediately jumps on LaserGuy wagon. Agrees 3 mafia is obvious choice, and 8-3-1-1 possible. Queries dimochka about third on the wagon joke votes. Points out my "FrozenFrog" mistake. Votes dimochka and refuses to explain why nor give a useful answer to why he wouldn't explain. Doesn't like me answering questions to other players. Thinks plytho is probably town. Thinks LaserGuy calling him active lurking a stretch. Clarifies that his unhelpfulness was primarily to stir up discussion. Asks mpolo for more explanation on what he doesn't like about me. Ask Zyth for explanation of dimochka vote and opinions on me, himself, and LaserGuy. Prods bessie for why she doesn't agree with my comment re. SK hunting. Outlines case for dimochka as scum - mostly over explaining and making useless additional joke votes. Thinks my logic re. SK hunting correct, but agrees with bessie re. possible damage control. Asks for answers from LaserGuy, along with conclusions on his reads on me and himself. Asks Yoloswag why he thinks there's a scum between me and dimochka.


bessie: Until Carlington turned up, I would say upwards of 90% of her content was directed at me. This seems significantly worse than her usual level of tunnelling, but might simply be due to me being one of the more active players, so am interacting with her more. Her point re. damage control is interesting - I don't deny that I don't want to be lynched, but apart from a jester, I'm not sure if I can think of any role who'd want to be lynched at this stage of the game, so when people focus on me, I can get a little defensive. I'd still be interested in why she hasn't given Zyth, FrozenFlame or mpolo much stick for downplaying a Serial Killer, when she did me - does she know something about one or more of them that I don't? As stated earlier, I still lean slightly townie on her, simply because her play style is pretty similar to usual, but I'd really like to hear her reads on people other than me or Carlington.

BoomFrog: His vote on dimochka is fair, and has a bit of explanation, but his vote on me is simply based on dimochka's argument, which I find curious mostly due to dimochka being his previous scum read. He has minimal other content - only a brief comment on plytho's townieness, simply stating that he agreed with SDK's read (which was itself without any explanation). I would like to see his reads on other players, and his reasoning behind them. Leaning scum due to minimal content and simply using other people's reasoning for half of his votes and reads (i.e. the townie read on plytho and the vote on me).

Carlington: I've gotten used to him showing up late to the party - he's done it in both his last couple of games at least (scum in both by the way). He enters with a solid enough post, with plenty of early, thought out opinions, but he could do with some more conclusions on most players. Leaning slightly town, but needs more to firm up that opinion.

dimochka: Reading his posts one-after-the-other without reading anybody else's has made my thinking about his defensiveness slip in a negative direction slightly. I think his 3rd on the wagon defence was probably unnecessary, given it was a joke FoS as far as I can tell. His comment here about his PGO statement:
dimochka wrote:FWIW this is in reference to the Pokemon game two months ago where I claimed PGO in my first D1 post. I was not PGO. and I was town. Does not mean anything regarding my role this game, but figured I'd explain.
is very weird when you realise that PyPokemon was 14 months ago, not two (and surely his memory would tell him that it wasn't that recent). I don't get why he felt that he too easily backed down from his first vote on me, since he was stating that his vote was not serious, and meta on these forums is to unvote random votes once serious votes start piling on (I don't have an issue with him actually backing down at all). I think this was what was [url="http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?p=4186501#p4186501"]bothering me previously[/url] about that post. It wasn't that his explanation was flimsy, it was that it was completely unnecessary. FTR, I don't think there is an issue with his bessie and BoomFrog town reads stated in the same post, as long as he explains them later (which he did to some extent in his next post). Leaning scum.

FrozenFlame: Three big posts with actually very little useful content in them. It is D1 still, but there has been an awful lot of discussion that he could post his opinions on. Hopefully that will come in the promised post. On the scummy side due to fluff-filled posts, but could easily move either way with further content.

Gopher of Pern: Very little content due to being busy. Would like to see his thoughts on the remaining players before I can really make any sort of judgement, but at least he posted some thoughts on people when he could. Fractionally Town.

Yoloswag: I'm happy that he was prodding people earlier with questions, but less so that he wasn't making any attempt to put down his own thoughts, until recently, and then only on me and dimochka (even then barely on dimochka), and then mostly only after others appeared to have concerns with us. Leaning slightly scum for this reason.

@Yoloswag - what is it you find suspect about dimochka? As far as I can see you haven't actually said why you find him suspicious.

Zyth: I like how Zyth is asking lots of questions but posting plenty of his own opinions, which seem quite reasonble and justified for the most part. I think he could do with looking at a few other players though. Probably Town.

LaserGuy: LaserGuy seems to be willing to engage with players, and is actively explaining his thoughts on players so far, although a few thoughts on the less active players would be nice from him, just like Zyth. I do agree with SDK and others that he may be stretching a bit with some of his IGMEOYs, but maybe he's simply being deliberately aggressive to try to stir things up a bit. I don't particularly have a problem with the lack of conclusions in his reads post, because it seemed fairly self-evident to me what they were. Leaning Town.

mpolo: mpolo has only really commented vaguely on my posts and a little bit about setup so far, but he has been away, so he gets a bit of a let off. Not rushing on his concerns with me is good in my books, although if I was feeling so inclined I could paint it as trying to get mud to stick on me for some reason. Slightly Town, but needs more content to keep it that way.

plytho: Generally feels okay to me, since he's another player willing to engage with others and post his reads about all players, rather than just a select few. Those reads are then backed up with good reasoning. I find his dimochka as jester comments are quite interesting. Leaning Town.

SDK: I feel like I say this every time with my D1 reads on SDK, but SDK is being SDK - quite aggressive, obtuse and occasionally even a little unhelpful, at first, before coming up with some good points based on people's reactions to things. My only concern is that he actually switched modes a little earlier than I'm used to with him, i.e. in a week-long D1, I kind of expect him to put pressure on for about 3-4 RL days, before switching. This time it came much sooner. But that's the only real niggle I have with him. Probably Town.

Town to scum list, from towniest to scummiest:
Zyth
plytho
SDK
bessie
LaserGuy
Carlington
mpolo
Gopher of Pern
FrozenFlame
Yoloswag
BoomFrog
dimochka

Unvote
Vote dimochka

but I could definitely see myself voting for any of my top three scum reads currently.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:29 pm UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:Sorry for not posting. At a conference, and only now got some time to post.

First thoughts on my skim read:

jimbob does feel very suss to me. They way they are being a bit defensive about things rubs me the wrong way. However, they did sorta slip that they forgot that scum have day chat, but whether that is deliberate or not, I can't tell. For the moment, I will trust them.

mpolo has acted pretty much like mpolo. Got nothing townie or scummy from them.

SDK is being a bit caustic, but has provided content, and is not just asking questions, which I feel he does when he's scum.

Laserguy seemed to defend themselves well, not going overboard, and has contributed pretty well, so they are a bit towny in my book.

That's all I got time for now, will hopefully get time later tonight.
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This post rubbed me the wrong way because there's a lot of "however, but" in these reads. It reminds me of scum being very choosy with his words and avoiding linking himself to anyone. Also, he said these are his first thoughts on a skim read. So that means that one of the first things he feels the town should know is that mpolo is null due to playing to his meta? I don't mean that in some kind of mocking way, I just find it hard to believe that that thought would be one of the first things he wants to share as town.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby LaserGuy » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:12 am UTC

Partial reads list on some people I haven't looked at yet...

bessie - Has spent most of her time poking at jimbob about indies and SKs. Feels that we should in principle be able to pick out the difference between a loner anti-town indie and coordinating mafia, which seems reasonable to me. Only read is on jimbob, who she puts as anti-town. Mentions her townie curse meta for the benefit of the new players...

She's tunneling pretty hard on jimbob, which is consistent with her meta. She hasn't read anyone else yet at all, which isn't really, though she's mentioned some IRL issues. Would like to see some reads on other players. In particular, what's your opinion of dimochka? There's something else that's pinging me just a bit, but I'm going to have to go and reread some of her older games to see if it's worth mentioning. Making her as Neutral for now.


BoomFrog - Very light on content, seems to just be following the lynch wagon around.
BoomFrog wrote:I agree with SDK's read of plytho.

BoomFrog wrote:My thoughts exactly.

Unvote

Vote: Domichka

BoomFrog wrote:You make a persuasive argument Fry @Domichka

Unvote
Vote jimbobmacdoodle

Any opinions of your own that you'd like to share BoomFrog? Feels scummy to me.


#HBC | YOLOSWAG - Thinks one or both of jimbob or dimochka are scum, to the point that he's suggesting this:
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:I'm very confident there is at least one scum between jimbob and dimochka to the point I'd advise the vig to off the other should we hit town today. I go back and forth as to who the better play is. I'm down with both wagons and know town can get something fruitful from that direction; a dimochka/jimbob focus provides town a reliable safety net. In addition, nearly the entire game has commented on both players which should prove useful for post-flip analysis

jimbob and dimochka are probably my two scummiest reads, so I'm not opposed to this in principle. Pinged on Gopher for hedging in his reads list.

His thinking seems very townie... pointing to places where people are making comments that seem selfish or unhelpful rather than beneficial to town, asking good questions. Likewise on the dimochka/jimbob thing, he's not positive which is scum, so he's prepared to sacrifice one townie for a likely kill one scum, which seems a good trade if he's confident in those reads. Likely town.


plytho - Fairly light on content, but reads list seems good.
plytho wrote:Jimbobmacdoodle: Has been on a long non-scum streak. Him being scum for the first time in more than a year might explain why regulars are feeling things are off. This is meta. I'm not getting a scum vibe from jimbob based on his posts. On the scummier end because of the meta.

Mpolo: "forgot" that mafia can coördinate during the day. @regulars: would scum!mpolo post stuff like that to mislead town? I don’t have much of a read on him. Neutral for now.

SDK: Am I overthinking things when I look at SDK's first post (before official day start) and see him distancing himself from his buddie boomfrog? Or is that too far into rule-breaking territory to start playing the game before the official start?


The meta read on jimbob here seems like a plausible explanation to me. I don't know enough of mpolo's play to be able to say one way or another whether this is the kind of mistake he'd have made legitimately, but this was a good catch. As far as SDK goes, anything posted in the thread is fair game for interpretation. I'm not sure whether or not there's anything worthwhile to be read into that comment, but no harm in making a note of it for later. Taken at face value, I'd say it's more likely that this comment would be more likely to be made if one was scum or neither, since scum could have expressed these sorts of sentiments in their private chat.

His posts so far strike me as very consistent with his play from last game, where he was town, so I'm fairly comfortable marking him there.


At present I don't really feel confident to say much on mpolo, Gopher, FrozenFlame or Zyth yet.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby Sabrar » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:00 am UTC

Deadline is in exactly 3 days. Please send me your night-actions (if you have any) before the end of the day!

Votals:
dimochka - 4 (SDK, #HBC | Zyth, LaserGuy, jimbobmacdoodle)
jimbobmacdoodle - 4 (bessie, dimochka, #HBC | YOLOSWAG, BoomFrog)

Not voting: Carlington, FrozenFlame, Gopher of Pern, mpolo, plytho

Tied votals will result in a No Lynch.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby mpolo » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:25 pm UTC

Finally had some time to reread (spoiler is my notes, so I feel they're not wasted…)

Spoiler:
1. jimbobmacdoodle - Starts with meta/joke vote. Doesn't know meta of all players. How often indies occur. SK unlikely. Explains vote, aslo for others. SKs are only marginally more likely than not. Back and forth with SDK about qs and as. Thought vote would provoke discussion/reaction. Responds to some questions. SDK is over-enigmatic. Back and forth with plytho about unvoting. Laserguy seems worried about the votes. Vote has served its purpose. Votes Carlington for lurking. Thinks dimochka is innocently overexplaining. Didn't like dimochka's most recent vote. Bessie feels townie, but is almost always town. Bessie tunneled more than usual, still slightly townie. Boomfrog inconsistnet, minimal content. Dimochka leans scum. Yoloswag asks questions, little original content. Zyth as well. Yolo more scummy, Zyth more townie. LG willing to engage, leaning town. Plytho leans town. SDK is SDK, probably town.
2. mpolo [no summary for obvious reasons]
3. SDK - Fourth vote on Laserguy. Some setup spec. Commonality of indies. Votes dimochka without explanation. (Serious vote, but questions come later.) Plytho seems townie. Wants discussion about his posting style. Case for dimochka scum: Explanation of his votes are overcautious and wishy-washy. Continues joking after the rest of the thread has moved on.Laserguy needs conclusions. open question to laserguy. Points out Laserguy's inconsistency. Doesn't like "1 scum between x and x".
4. LaserGuy - why four votes? Some flavor knowledge. Indies are likely. jimbob is blasé about the wagon around his first vote, keeps that vote there. SDK active lurking. Comprehensive reads. Votes dimochka. SDK town, jimbob scum. (Almost reverse of his last post) SDK also didn't answer question, but seems townie. Bessie neutral. BoomFrog scummy. YOLO has townie thinking. plytho consistent with town play.
5. dimochka - votes Plytho. FrozenFlame is third on joke wagon. Setup spec. Jester likely. Third voter rule may have no merit. SK almost a given. Votes jimbob for creating content. (jokey?) Yes, a joke (unvote). Thinks he remembers Sabrar talking a lot about jesters. Got distracted. Bessie and Boomfrog are town. (BF has little content to here). Read list. Claims weak town role. Votes jimbob.
6. Carlington - List of reads (Yoloswag active lurky, eye on jimbob, wants movement from BoomFrog). Corrects setup spec. explaining tunneling by bessie.
7. Gopher of Pern - Flavor knowledge, setup spec. A few thoughts. Jimbob is currently trusted. SDK town. Laserguy good defense.
8. bessie - setup spec. Answering questions, setup spec. Wonders which votes are jokes. We should be able to identify an SK. Votes jimbob (damage control mode). Some Q and A.
9. plytho - Still new to this forum. Votes Yoloswag for double joke vote. Explains FrozenFlame's vote for him. Question. Reads. Was SDK distancing form Boomfrog. Doesn't like SDK's posts. LG townie. Dimochka may be jestering. Bessie likely town. Yoloswag has lots of votes. Zyth townie. Boomfrog following the flow.
10. #HBC | YOLOSWAG - Joke vote for person already joke-voted. Thinks 3 mafia. Explains abductor role. Asks jimbob about bessie. Questions about Laserguy'S inconsistency. Question to Carlington about bessie's tunneling. Doesn't like jimbob's "What about them" post. One of jimbob and dimochka likely scum. Votes jimbob as soon as dimochka does. Would like to see a vig hit the other of the two who isn't lynched. Gopher is padding his reads.
11. FrozenFlame - Experienced Mafia player, new here. Dislikes survivor roles. Third vote on LaserGuy. Asks about Indie roles. Votes plytho OMGUS. Hates jesters. Admits vote misplaced by error.
12. #HBC | Zyth - Tends to be intuitive. Thinks SK unlikely. Plytho is newbie town. Dimochka has a lot of fluff. Some prods. SDK's logic on dimochka gives him a town lean. Dimochka has a lot of fluff. LaserGuy is passive agressive.
13. BoomFrog - arrives late, "Zen" opening statement, votes Plytho. This vote is serious, suspicious of dimochka for unfunny joke vote. Thinks he has done little to earn dimochka's trust. Votes dimochka. Changes to jimbob because of dimochka's argument.


1. jimbobmacdoodle - possibly some defensiveness/overexplanation, but that has grated less in recent posts. Neutralish.
3. SDK - Seems to be consistent with town-SDK. Makes an early and somewhat convincing case against dimochka. Townish.
4. Laserguy - Handled the joke-wagon-in-the-sky pretty well. Has been actively analyzing. Generally solid. Leaning town.
5. dimochka - Scummy behaviour on D1 answered by saying he is weak town and doesn't mind being lynched. I have a certain wariness of jester-itude, especially as he went on a bit about the subject. Neutral-scummy.
6. Carlington - A few posts (as usual), but high content per post. Still fairly neutral, though.
7. Gopher of Pern - Few posts (RL), few reads in those posts. Possibly unusual set of people to look for reads on, but there may be meta here. Neutral.
8. Bessie - always reads townie. Seems to be making an effort. Neutral-town.
9. plytho - Generally good content and observations. Leaning townie.
10. #HBC | YOLOSWAG - a lot of votes, and more questions than real content, though he did point out a problem with Gopher. Neutral-scummy.
11. FrozenFlame - Content has been pretty light. Neutral-lurky.
12. #HBC | Zyth - Some good comments and remarks. Active in the thread. Neutral-townie.
13. BoomFrog - Very short posts with little justification. A certain level of just following others along. Neutral-scummy

I don't have any extremely scummy reads up to this point. I think the one I'm going to vote at the moment is:

Vote: BoomFrog
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:06 pm UTC

I'm looking at the team being within

[jimbob/dimochka/boomfrog/GoP/frozen/Carlington]

atm. If we lynch within jimbob and dimochka today and hit scum, it's possible the other is unaligned with them and their interactions might point to that. I'm pretty confident in this pool, though an exact order is lost on me right now.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:32 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:Deadline is in exactly 3 days. Please send me your night-actions (if you have any) before the end of the day!

Votals:
dimochka - 4 (SDK, #HBC | Zyth, LaserGuy, jimbobmacdoodle)
jimbobmacdoodle - 4 (bessie, dimochka, #HBC | YOLOSWAG, BoomFrog)

Not voting: Carlington, FrozenFlame, Gopher of Pern, mpolo, plytho

Tied votals will result in a No Lynch.
Vote dimochka

Actually, my list would probably go

dimochka* = jimbob* -> GoP = boomfrog -> Frozen/Carlington

*= might take off list if other flips scum based on post-flip analysis.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:47 pm UTC

I agree with the view of boomfrog being scummy, his play reminds me of scum trying to lie low. I do find it interesting however, that the general consensus is that he is a scum lean for most people, with the exception of dimochka, who has him as Town off of meta reasons. I think that this is definitely something worth looking into upon getting a flip from either one of them.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby bessie » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:22 pm UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:jimbob does feel very suss to me. They way they are being a bit defensive about things rubs me the wrong way. However, they did sorta slip that they forgot that scum have day chat, but whether that is deliberate or not, I can't tell.
mpolo’s the one that forgot scum have day chat. Or did he? Or do they?

plytho wrote:Bessie: probably town. I’d expect regulars to notice if she was scum for the first time in more than a year. I haven’t seen anything in her posts that feels odd.
How about bessie is so brilliant that she can probably successfully fool even the most seasoned mafia player? Did you consider that possibility? Well did you?

Carlington wrote: My only concern is that you're devoting a lot of your attention to your perception that jimbob is downplaying an SK, and that this is to the detriment of your overall scumhunting.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:bessie: Until Carlington turned up, I would say upwards of 90% of her content was directed at me. This seems significantly worse than her usual level of tunnelling, but might simply be due to me being one of the more active players, so am interacting with her more. Her point re. damage control is interesting - I don't deny that I don't want to be lynched, but apart from a jester, I'm not sure if I can think of any role who'd want to be lynched at this stage of the game, so when people focus on me, I can get a little defensive. I'd still be interested in why she hasn't given Zyth, FrozenFlame or mpolo much stick for downplaying a Serial Killer, when she did me - does she know something about one or more of them that I don't?
I find it interesting many of you believe I’m voting for jimbob for downplaying the possibility of a serial killer. That may be the reason I placed the vote. The reason my vote remains on jimbob is because he went into damage control mode on page 2. And only SDK has acknowledged this (and I’m still waiting for his promised analysis of this observation). I think YOLOSWAG did pick up on what I was trying to say but it’s not clear to me and he may have come to that conclusion independently of anything I had to say about it.

plytho wrote:SDK: Am I overthinking things when I look at SDK's first post (before official day start) and see him distancing himself from his buddie boomfrog? Or is that too far into rule-breaking territory to start playing the game before the official start?
I had this very debate with moody et al. in Wheel of Time 2 (quick summary, dimochka claimed militant atheist in his confirmation post and voted for the mod). I attacked dimochka for it and got pretty much uniformly beaten down because (1) pre-game doesn’t count, (2) it was just a confirmation post, and (3) it was obviously a joke because militant atheist isn’t a real role that gets used and I should know this. I objected strongly to all three of those reasons. My arguments were that (1) anything posted in the game thread was content and should be considered fair game, (2) scum has been caught based on their confirmation posts (examples were presented), and (3) fine, I’m dense. Anyway, I thought too much argument against me was based on (3), and that the point I was trying to make was (1), which was being brushed off.

To answer plytho’s question, I don’t know. In general, I believe anything posted in the game thread is content. You shouldn’t get to go back and say “what I posted there doesn’t really count, because I wasn’t playing yet” (exceptions made for real life notifications and other spoilered content). Does SDK’s post qualify as non content? Probably, but we won't really know until endgame. If he’s town, yes? If he’s scum, maybe?

I'm working on my reads list, but I'm just going to post content as I have it to keep the game moving. Deadline is Tuesday 9:00 am UTC, which is 2:00 am for me.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby plytho » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:58 pm UTC

Here's my town to scum:

plytho
#HBC | Zyth
bessie
LaserGuy
FrozenFlame
Carlington
mpolo
Gopher of Pern
BoomFrog
#HBC | YOLOSWAG
SDK
jimbobmacdoodle
dimochka

I'm not too confident in my reads between FrozenFlame and SDK. It's a big neutral bunch for now.

@YOLO or Zyth: what does #HBC stand for? (just curious)

Some people have been reading me as newbie (town). Can you say what makes me seem newbish? Am I making some basic mistakes?

bessie wrote:
plytho wrote:Bessie: probably town. I’d expect regulars to notice if she was scum for the first time in more than a year. I haven’t seen anything in her posts that feels odd.
How about bessie is so brilliant that she can probably successfully fool even the most seasoned mafia player? Did you consider that possibility? Well did you?
I did. When I make a reads list I sort of imagine everyone one by one as scum and see where they might have slipped. I guess all my town reads have an "or competent scum" caveat.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby plytho » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:16 pm UTC

Reminder: while in previous nightless games I've seen mods give more time to send in night actions in case of hammer, the rules for this game state there won't be a period of grace (with the exception of a Day ending withing 24 hours) so make sure to send in an action in time.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby bessie » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:41 am UTC

Incomplete and poorly organized reads list. I’m going out for a few hours so posting what I have.

BoomFrog- Light on content, light on reads. Gives reasons for his votes. This odd comment in response to YOLOSWAG’s comments on the flips:
BoomFrog wrote:True, but since this particular name is nightless people need to get their actions in anyway.
It is a response but doesn’t really address the comment to which (I think) it points. What is the real purpose?

Carlington – Made a nice long post, which makes me hopeful that in this game he’s not going to be waiting until a few hours before deadline to post the bulk of his content. However, he did need to be modprodded to post, which concerns me. I don't think he is mafia because if he had been chatting with his teammates he probably would have had more confidence and posted during the first two RL game days. His town list is mostly summaries to which he does offer some opinions but he does not draw many conclusions, and no solid reads. My gut feeling is that if he is mafia, LaserGuy is his buddy. Carlington, how about a town-scum list?

dimochka – His game has been somewhat sloppy, and he is trying to downplay his considerable mafia skills. Maybe this should concern me. I agree with SDK’s earlier scum read taken in context of time, but what strikes me about dimochka's later content is that he’s not overly defensive and he doesn’t seem to me like he’s trying to stay alive. Doesn’t mean he’s town as mafia doesn’t need to be alive at endgame to win either. I almost thought he could be a hesitant jester but I feel that role would be outside the advertised setup for this game. His reads list is solid.

FrozenFlame – An aggressive, experienced player from another site, I’m very looking forward to seeing some reads from him. I like his content for what it is, some early pressure, some setup discussion, perfectly acceptable for early D1. However we’re getting close to deadline and there’s not a lot of scumhunting, but he has a RL excuse. [Side note, FrozenFlame, I don’t want you to think that RL issues are unacceptable or will be held against you. We’re all pretty accommodating when someone has a good excuse for low activity, and girlfriend/work certainly qualifies! :D ] I’m just pushing him because I’m intrigued by what I’ve seen and I’d like to see some more content.

jimbobmacdoodle – I’ve already discussed jimbob more than anyone else. Quick recap on what led up to my vote, and why it remains where it is. jimbob made a comment about changing the setup which I thought was odd and made a comment that he thought a serial killer was unlikely. Whatever, it’s D1 and we’re all talking. Then he had an interaction with SDK where he was overly defensive. So me being my tunnelly self, started in on him. Then he made the comment I really didn’t like, quoted by me here followed by my vote. This is where I think jimbob went in to damage control mode, and he stars pushing me as to why I’m not questioning others that also don’t think we have a serial killer. I pointed out the damage control mode here where I continued needling him well because it was producing a result. And then Carlington showed up with the same serial killer opinion to distract my attention. Hmm…

LaserGuy – As already mentioned by me, I think he was remarkably composed for a newbie with four votes on page one, more so than jimbob was when he got one vote on page two. I think he’s townie. But this may just be my poor scumhunting skills surfacing because I thought he was townie in Diablo until D3, and I still don’t see the scumtells that SDK and others (read the Gojoe thread) saw in that game.

mpolo - Town, or scum that doesn’t have chat? No, because he mentions mafia coordinating after D1. Not a lot of content, but I think that his most valuable contribution may be his read of BoomFrog. BoomFrog has given us very little to work with, and although I’m not sure about this I think mpolo may have the most experience playing with him.

plytho – He’s suspiciously insightful for a newbie. By the end of this game he’s going to be a better player than me, if he isn’t already. I like this post a lot. And this post even more. This comment re YOLOSWAG
plytho wrote:It feels sensible at first but it might be a scum attempt to get rid of three town by D2. I’m definitely not confident enough about jimbob and dimochka to support this strategy.
should ping me, and it probably would coming from someone else, but it feels right coming from plytho. Re his town-scum list:

plytho wrote:I'm not too confident in my reads between FrozenFlame and SDK. It's a big neutral bunch for now.
And that’s perfectly fine. It’s tough to do and I usually change my mind many times as I’m typing. The point of making the list, and why I always push for them, is that it forces you to make a judgment on everyone, even if it is only in relation to everyone else. I’ve already seen a bit of “well I don’t feel strongly about anyone and at I consider at least eight of you neutralish” in this game. Ok, who’s your scummiest neutral? Why are you afraid to voice an opinion? What do you have to hide?

plytho wrote:
bessie wrote:How about bessie is so brilliant that she can probably successfully fool even the most seasoned mafia player? Did you consider that possibility? Well did you?
I did.
I guess it’s my own fault for asking. :|

Remaining reads and any updates later when I get home.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby BoomFrog » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:16 am UTC

plytho wrote:Some people have been reading me as newbie (town). Can you say what makes me seem newbish? Am I making some basic mistakes?
Quite the opposite, it's your enthusiasm that reveals that you are new to the game. Newbie town are extremely helpful and transparent, newbie scum have difficulty pretending to be that because of their lack of experience. Therefore newbies are the easiest to read.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby BoomFrog » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:24 am UTC

Finally I get the attention I deserve.
plytho wrote:BoomFrog: I can’t really read much on him based on his posts so far. Has sort of been voting with the flow (like YOLOSWAG) starting with a joke/serious vote on me, then joining the pressure on dimochka and now on jimbob. Neutral.

This is totally valid. Very reasonable thinking for a newbie townie. However I raise what I think is a very important objection:
BoomFrog wrote:[@plytho] For the record I was the first "Vote" on dimochka but I made it unofficially because I was still serious about my vote on you.

Then, LaserGuy makes the same accusation:
LaserGuy wrote:Any opinions of your own that you'd like to share BoomFrog? Feels scummy to me.

@LaserGuy why did you ignore the fact that I was the very first person to raise attention to dimochka's scumminess and unoffically the first vote on him?
mpolo wrote:13. BoomFrog - Very short posts with little justification. A certain level of just following others along. Neutral-scummy
mpolo, I'm disappointed, you and Gopher of Pern were supposed to be my two references to confirm my opening statements. Do you deny that the following is true?
BoomFrog wrote:I am a master of the arts of Mafia. If I appear scummy then it was intentional, if I appear to be town it's meaningless.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:21 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Any opinions of your own that you'd like to share BoomFrog? Feels scummy to me.

@LaserGuy why did you ignore the fact that I was the very first person to raise attention to dimochka's scumminess and unoffically the first vote on him?


You weren't. SDK placed a serious vote on him before your "unofficial" vote. I had also previously put IGMEOY on dimochka for his early wine comment. Regardless, simply pointing out scummy behavior in one player is not necessarily indicative of you being town, nor does it change the scumminess of your subsequent play. The fact that you've made a post pointing to this one line of content as defense of your play is honestly not helping your cause.

Consider this my unofficial vote on you.

bessie wrote:How about bessie is so brilliant that she can probably successfully fool even the most seasoned mafia player? Did you consider that possibility? Well did you?


I can't decide if you're just being snarky because everyone always just assumes you're town and doesn't bother to read you properly, or if you're putting a giant lampshade over the fact that you aren't.

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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby plytho » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:39 am UTC

bessie wrote:plytho – He’s suspiciously insightful for a newbie. By the end of this game he’s going to be a better player than me, if he isn’t already.

High praise from someone who is possibly "so brilliant that she can probably successfully fool even the most seasoned mafia player" :D

LaserGuy wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Any opinions of your own that you'd like to share BoomFrog? Feels scummy to me.

@LaserGuy why did you ignore the fact that I was the very first person to raise attention to dimochka's scumminess and unoffically the first vote on him?

You weren't. SDK placed a serious vote on him before your "unofficial" vote. I had also previously put IGMEOY on dimochka for his early wine comment.


Good catch! I missed SDK's vote when I went back to verify BoomFrog's statement.
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:27 pm UTC

Miscellaneous comments and thoughts based on the content since my last post:
#HBC | YOLOSWAG wrote:This post rubbed me the wrong way because there's a lot of "however, but" in these reads. It reminds me of scum being very choosy with his words and avoiding linking himself to anyone. Also, he said these are his first thoughts on a skim read. So that means that one of the first things he feels the town should know is that mpolo is null due to playing to his meta? I don't mean that in some kind of mocking way, I just find it hard to believe that that thought would be one of the first things he wants to share as town.
I'm not sure I agree with the first part of this statement. Surely showing good and bad things about players is a way of making sure the viewpoint is balanced and fair? However, the second half of this paragraph is a very interesting point. To firm up Yoloswag's implicit question:

@Gopher - why did you choose to comment on mpolo in particular, but not some of those with significantly more content (e.g. dimochka)?

Interesting that LaserGuy has taken a different view of bessie's tunnelling to everyone else (i.e. it's put her as neutral, whereas everyone else views her as town, I think). Not sure what to make of that just yet, and I'm curious to know what pinged him about her that he hasn't disclosed.

@LaserGuy - Zyth and mpolo have both posted content since that reads post. What are your reads on them? If you had to label Gopher and FrozenFlame on a scum to town spectrum, or get lynched, where would you put them?

Yoloswag has started to post a bit more about one or two others. However, it all feels pretty light. This might just be his meta though.

@Yoloswag - why do you have BoomFrog as joint scum-level with Gopher? Similarly, why have you put Carlington and FrozenFlame on that list?

I'm happier with my Town read on bessie now that she has finally gotten around to commenting on others and prodding some of them. I'd like to see the remainder of her reads and her own ordered list.

I'm actually feeling worse about BoomFrog following his most recent comments. Making a factual mistake about first to find dimochka isn't so bad (I regularly make mistakes, due to faulty memory). What I find bad is that he brought up this statement again:
BoomFrog wrote:I am a master of the arts of Mafia. If I appear scummy then it was intentional, if I appear to be town it's meaningless.
Or you could be scum who is claiming this to make sure if anybody reads you as scummy they then think, "but oh, wait, he said that he'll look scummy deliberately, so that's probably what he's doing".

FoS BoomFrog

@LaserGuy - your "unofficial vote" on BoomFrog - is that because you still think dimochka is scummier?
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby BoomFrog » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:55 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Any opinions of your own that you'd like to share BoomFrog? Feels scummy to me.

@LaserGuy why did you ignore the fact that I was the very first person to raise attention to dimochka's scumminess and unoffically the first vote on him?


You weren't. SDK placed a serious vote on him before your "unofficial" vote. I had also previously put IGMEOY on dimochka for his early wine comment.
Oh, my mistake then. In light of that your reaction seems spot on so welcome to my townie list.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I'm actually feeling worse about BoomFrog following his most recent comments. Making a factual mistake about first to find dimochka isn't so bad (I regularly make mistakes, due to faulty memory). What I find bad is that he brought up this statement again:
BoomFrog wrote:I am a master of the arts of Mafia. If I appear scummy then it was intentional, if I appear to be town it's meaningless.
Or you could be scum who is claiming this to make sure if anybody reads you as scummy they then think, "but oh, wait, he said that he'll look scummy deliberately, so that's probably what he's doing".

FoS BoomFrog

I agree with you objection, I actually expected people to make a bigger deal about that declaration when I made it. I was trying to stir up trouble to draw out reactions and everyone ignored it. So why did you not object to this before, but it bothers you now?
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Re: The Dark Tower - Day 1 - Mistrust

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:19 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:I agree with you objection, I actually expected people to make a bigger deal about that declaration when I made it. I was trying to stir up trouble to draw out reactions and everyone ignored it. So why did you not object to this before, but it bothers you now?
Making a statement like that in your first post seemed to me just a bit of introductory bluster, for want of a better term, and not something to actually pay any attention to. However, you raised it again, much later in the day, as if to suggest that you were serious with it and people should listen and follow its semi-implied suggestions (i.e. scummy Boomfrog is being intentionally scummy, therefore is probably not scum). That's why I'm bothered by it now.
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