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Re: Logon

Postby Zohar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:47 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:It was set IN Mexico. What ethnicity did you expect the thieves to be? I suppose they could have just cast white people for every role in the movie, regardless of where the movie was set, but I suspect that would have also led to charges of racism.

You don't have to be a dick about this. I said it was a bad first impression. On its own, a movie opening with an angry white man slicing a bunch of Hispanic people (thanks for the correction Hippo, I also thought the first scene took place in Mexico), doesn't seem promising. I didn't run out of the theater screaming "RACISM!" after that, I stayed and watched the movie and my perception changed.

Do you find it so unusual to feel disturbed seeing casual violence against a minority group by white people in a very conventional "brown people are bad!" trope-y way? It's to the movie's merit that it does show a variety of Hispanic characters portraying many different roles. If a movie consistently shows Hispanics as bad and whites as good, then that's a good indication of it being racist. The problem with portrayal of minorities in cinema isn't that there aren't any violent criminal Hispanic people, it's that those are the ones we most often see. This movie showed a diversity of characters - awesome! But seeing the first scene doesn't tell me what I'll see later on.
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Re: Logon

Postby Diadem » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:38 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Diadem wrote:It was set IN Mexico. What ethnicity did you expect the thieves to be? I suppose they could have just cast white people for every role in the movie, regardless of where the movie was set, but I suspect that would have also led to charges of racism.

You don't have to be a dick about this.

My apologies. My post was intended as flippant and humorous, not dickish. Apparently I missed that mark by a wide margin. Sorry.

Zohar wrote:I said it was a bad first impression. On its own, a movie opening with an angry white man slicing a bunch of Hispanic people (thanks for the correction Hippo, I also thought the first scene took place in Mexico), doesn't seem promising. I didn't run out of the theater screaming "RACISM!" after that, I stayed and watched the movie and my perception changed.

Do you find it so unusual to feel disturbed seeing casual violence against a minority group by white people in a very conventional "brown people are bad!" trope-y way?

I see your point. But to me it just seems strange to judge a movie like that based on a single scene, even if you're only doing the judging in your head while watching the rest of the movie. There's just so many directions a movie can go in after such a scene.

But if I have to be fair then I have to admit that there certainly have been cases where I disliked a movie based on the very first scene. But that's usually because the acting is terrible, or they are throwing around horrible cliches. Although I suppose you could say that "Hispanics as bad guys" is itself a horrible cliche, so yeah, perhaps your initial response makes sense.

Let's agree that at least the movie as a whole did not suffer from this problem.


@ The Great Hippo:

Are you sure the first part of the movie was set in the US? I distinctly recall them talking about crossing the border. Isn't there even a scene where Logan crosses a border checkpoint? Also when talking about this research facility where the children are, don't they say that all the higher ups were American but the nurses were local? That would be weird phrasing if it was set in the USA.
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Re: Logon

Postby Moo » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:53 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:find out the driver's asleep in the backseat.
Wasn't he bundled into the boot by the thugs? I guess that doesn't make much sense, since he's motherfucking Wolverine... Guess I wasn't paying that much attention at that point. Iunno.

I'm also often suspicious about accounts of people being shot and killed over stuff like sneakers; like, our media has an incentive to sensationalize, and people being killed over sneakers is pretty sensational. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of those situations were way more complex
I'm going to have to go ahead and call US-centrism on this (you're from there, right? Sorry if I'm assuming). In South Africa, being shot for your cellphone and/or whatever cash you have on you is not exactly common but not unheard of. I think there was recently a story about a guy killed for R20 (that's barely more than US$1). Unless the point isn't the monetary value associated with the worth of a human life in these instances and I'm misunderstanding your objections?


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Re: Logon

Postby Zohar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:54 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:I see your point. But to me it just seems strange to judge a movie like that based on a single scene, even if you're only doing the judging in your head while watching the rest of the movie. There's just so many directions a movie can go in after such a scene.
I apologize then, because it's clear I didn't explain myself fully. It was an initial impression that made me, let's say, suspicious about the direction of the movie. Once I saw some more of it, those suspicions largely dissipated.
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Re: Logon

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:03 pm UTC

((Two post-ninjas... But not quite on the same subject.))

I took it that Logan worked (mostly, "YOU ESS EH!" frat boys on a cross-border jaunt excepted) on the US side, where the money was, then transited over to where the isolation (and possibly jurisdictional independence) was that benefited 'Chuck'.

(Which side was the hospital porter again? I think that was Mexico... More limited availability, but the dollars should have at least have gone further and possibly more chance of the casual corruption, or at least less official price-gouging so they'd be missed less.)

I think, therefore, we started off in NM (or AZ or..?) with the vehicle doing a weekly bout of customer montages, perhaps roaming around from Phoenix to Dallas as the Son-Of-Uber app required, to get the money together for the weekly 'groceries' purchase as well as the retirement fund, then goes south to Charles and Caliban.

ETA: @Moo, I think he was asleep on his back seat(s), to save on motel costs. I don't know if the thugs knew or cared that he was there, and did try to suggest he back off, but (being Wolverine) he didn't and 'suffered' from the itchy trigger finger (that doesn't seem to have been abnormal, but might not have been habitually necessary). But it has been a while, now, since I saw that.

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Re: Logon

Postby natraj » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:14 pm UTC

Moo wrote:I'm going to have to go ahead and call US-centrism on this (you're from there, right? Sorry if I'm assuming). In South Africa, being shot for your cellphone and/or whatever cash you have on you is not exactly common but not unheard of. I think there was recently a story about a guy killed for R20 (that's barely more than US$1). Unless the point isn't the monetary value associated with the worth of a human life in these instances and I'm misunderstanding your objections?


it is true, a terrible sin of judging from a us perspective a scene set in the US. certainly all usians should judge scenes in movies that are set in america from the perspective of other countries.

but yes in the opening of logan he is working north of the border as a chauffeur, then crosses over to mexico where he has stashed the prof.

anyway regardless of the commonality of shooting people over trivialities it is often true that fiction has a higher bar for realism than real life. simply because you can't see the entire lives and motivations of the characters in that two minute window! so you need to do more to explain why they are behaving as they are in order to make them feel believable and not like cheap stereotypes.
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Re: Logon

Postby Weeks » Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:45 pm UTC

They didn't really feel like cheap stereotypes to me, a guy who doesn't live in the US, but I can see how they might to all y'all, given your predisposition towards racism against hispanics
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Re: Logon

Postby Moo » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:31 am UTC

natraj wrote:it is true, a terrible sin of judging from a us perspective a scene set in the US. certainly all usians should judge scenes in movies that are set in america from the perspective of other countries.
:roll:
The Great Hippo was judging not the scene but the likelihood of anyone being shot for their sneakers etc, in general terms; after a comment from Weeks. ENTIRELY outside the context of the film. Weeks specifically references "local news" - Weeks is from Panama. Weeks also mentions Detroit in that conversation. By the point in the conversation you quoted, it had nothing to do with the scene from the film. Keep up.
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Re: Logon

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:43 pm UTC

Moo wrote::roll:
The Great Hippo was judging not the scene but the likelihood of anyone being shot for their sneakers etc, in general terms; after a comment from Weeks. ENTIRELY outside the context of the film. Weeks specifically references "local news" - Weeks is from Panama. Weeks also mentions Detroit in that conversation. By the point in the conversation you quoted, it had nothing to do with the scene from the film. Keep up.
No, natraj is right; I was judging the scene in the context of it being set in New Mexico. Specifically, I was referring to the likelihood of people being shot for their sneakers/hubcaps/etc in the US -- if the scene had been set in Mexico, I would have kept my big mouth shut. That's what I meant by 'our media'; I was referring to the US media and its tendency to sensationalize violent crimes in places like Detroit. I accept that it has happened in the US, but I'm deeply skeptical that it's anywhere near as pervasive as our (US) media implies it is.

I wouldn't talk about the likelihood of being shot for your sneakers outside of the US, because that's just shit I don't know enough to have an opinion on. I mean, I am aware that there are places where armed muggings are so common that 'decoy wallets' are a thing.

Though maybe I am still speaking from a self-centric position, here; I don't have a tremendous amount of experience with crime (I've only been robbed a couple of times, and never at gun-point), and it's possible that somebody getting shot for hubcaps in the US isn't nearly as rare or extraordinary as I think it is.
Diadem wrote:Are you sure the first part of the movie was set in the US? I distinctly recall them talking about crossing the border. Isn't there even a scene where Logan crosses a border checkpoint? Also when talking about this research facility where the children are, don't they say that all the higher ups were American but the nurses were local? That would be weird phrasing if it was set in the USA.
Yep, absolutely positive -- when he crosses the checkpoint, he's going back to Mexico, where Professor Xavier is stashed. I can't actually remember if the research facility was in Mexico or New Mexico, though. I want to say Mexico, but I'm not sure.

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Re: Logon

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:09 pm UTC

The facility was explicitly said to be in Mexico City, and the opening scene was explicitly said to be in Texas.
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Re: Logon

Postby Moo » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:34 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote: I was judging the scene in the context of it being set in New Mexico. Specifically, I was referring to the likelihood of people being shot for their sneakers/hubcaps/etc in the US
OK I accept that's not what you meant but that wasn't clear, following as it was immediately after a comment about stuff like that happening in Panama.
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Re: Logon

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:41 pm UTC

And, y'know, Detroit.

Hence the response about our media sensationalizing it.
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Re: Logon

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:01 pm UTC

Moo wrote:OK I accept that's not what you meant but that wasn't clear, following as it was immediately after a comment about stuff like that happening in Panama.
Fair enough! I can see how that could be confusing. I presumed 'our media' would be taken to mean our media reporting on crime exclusive to the US -- but you could also interpret that as 'our media' reporting on crime all around the world (such as in Panama). And the 'our' is pretty easy to miss, too.

Regardless, yeah -- I definitely was referring to my skepticism over the idea of people shooting other people over hubcaps in the US. Particularly people who steal hubcaps pretty regularly; cruelty aside, it seems like it'd draw way more attention than you'd want.

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Re: Logon

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:05 pm UTC

I definitely enjoyed this more than most other X-Men films, and think bearded and scarred Wolverine looks more like any other Wolverine we've ever seen. The storyline, seeing Charles and Logan bicker and swear at one another, Laura looking chill in her shades, and the world having changed in subtle ways, were all good.

But something about the way the whole thing shaped out just sat wrong with me. I didn't like the conclusion, which felt rushed, and didn't like the way Logan was a sort of reluctant hero all... the way... through... the film... I also disliked that we're basically only a few years out of the X-Men Universe, and while we're supposed to be given this notion that everything is different, all we really understand is that an event lead to things ending. So, ultimately, the world building and execution fell flat. One of the most fundamental aspects of Logan's persona is that he is incapable of watching innocent people be abused/harmed. No amount of trauma, Genova or Psychic Seizures or whatever is going to make Logan turn his back on someone who needs his help.

Spoiler:
I also very much dislike for some reason Wolverine is suddenly ailing and sick? Presumably from... his adamentium? Or... stuff in the water?

Though, that said, I think it's generally a mark of a good character that I dislike bad things happening to them.


Finally, I was SO EXITED to see an X-men film that didn't have the stupid 'GET IT THEY HAVE SUPER POWERS HERE ARE THEIR SUPERPOWERS WOW SUPERPOWERS' scene, which contributed to the end of the film kind of sucking in my mind.
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Re: Logon

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:16 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Spoiler:
I also very much dislike for some reason Wolverine is suddenly ailing and sick? Presumably from... his adamentium? Or... stuff in the water?
Spoiler:
It's the adamantium; he explicitly mentions it when he talks to the doctor ("He's the one who put this poison in me!"). You could take that as a metaphor (meaning that they're poisonous in the sense that they made him so excellent at killing, and poison his soul), but it seems far more likely that he meant it literally: The adamantium is poisonous and has been slowly killing him this whole time.

This is actually a Thingtm in the comic-books (depending on who's writing the character); the idea is that Wolverine's healing factor is ridiculously powerful, but it's held back in large part by the fact that it's constantly working to heal the damage done to him via the adamantium poisoning. So, like, in the movie, the premise here is that the adamantium poisoning has finally advanced to a stage where it's starting to beat his healing factor.

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Re: Logon

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:52 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
Spoiler:
I also very much dislike for some reason Wolverine is suddenly ailing and sick? Presumably from... his adamentium? Or... stuff in the water?
Spoiler:
It's the adamantium; he explicitly mentions it when he talks to the doctor ("He's the one who put this poison in me!"). You could take that as a metaphor (meaning that they're poisonous in the sense that they made him so excellent at killing, and poison his soul), but it seems far more likely that he meant it literally: The adamantium is poisonous and has been slowly killing him this whole time.

This is actually a Thingtm in the comic-books (depending on who's writing the character); the idea is that Wolverine's healing factor is ridiculously powerful, but it's held back in large part by the fact that it's constantly working to heal the damage done to him via the adamantium poisoning. So, like, in the movie, the premise here is that the adamantium poisoning has finally advanced to a stage where it's starting to beat his healing factor.


I thought it was more like:
Spoiler:
The healing factor has been reduced by the secret gene therapy that largely eliminated mutants

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Re: Logon

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:14 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Spoiler:
The healing factor has been reduced by the secret gene therapy that largely eliminated mutants
Spoiler:
No, the gene therapy just prevented any new mutants from being born -- it didn't interfere with their powers (at least, that isn't something the movie implied or discussed).

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Re: Logon

Postby eSOANEM » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:55 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
But something about the way the whole thing shaped out just sat wrong with me. I didn't like the conclusion, which felt rushed, and didn't like the way Logan was a sort of reluctant hero all... the way... through... the film... I also disliked that we're basically only a few years out of the X-Men Universe, and while we're supposed to be given this notion that everything is different, all we really understand is that an event lead to things ending. So, ultimately, the world building and execution fell flat. One of the most fundamental aspects of Logan's persona is that he is incapable of watching innocent people be abused/harmed. No amount of trauma, Genova or Psychic Seizures or whatever is going to make Logan turn his back on someone who needs his help.


I didn't think Logan had changed dramatically from that pov; it's just that, now that he's sick, he doesn't feel like he can look after both Charles and Laura and so has to make a call. And, in his mind, he owes Charles more than he does Laura (at least at the start).
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Re: Logon

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:56 pm UTC

Spoiler:
The Great Hippo wrote:No, the gene therapy just prevented any new mutants from being born -- it didn't interfere with their powers (at least, that isn't something the movie implied or discussed).


I actually somewhat got the impression that it was affecting current mutants - both because of the green medicine that enhanced their powers temporarily, and because I believe they specifically mentioned CRISPR.


eSOANEM wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
But something about the way the whole thing shaped out just sat wrong with me. I didn't like the conclusion, which felt rushed, and didn't like the way Logan was a sort of reluctant hero all... the way... through... the film... I also disliked that we're basically only a few years out of the X-Men Universe, and while we're supposed to be given this notion that everything is different, all we really understand is that an event lead to things ending. So, ultimately, the world building and execution fell flat. One of the most fundamental aspects of Logan's persona is that he is incapable of watching innocent people be abused/harmed. No amount of trauma, Genova or Psychic Seizures or whatever is going to make Logan turn his back on someone who needs his help.


I didn't think Logan had changed dramatically from that pov; it's just that, now that he's sick, he doesn't feel like he can look after both Charles and Laura and so has to make a call. And, in his mind, he owes Charles more than he does Laura (at least at the start).
Spoiler:
Then why the conversation about how he was leaving her once he got her to her friends? That's not something Logan would do - Logan would see a bunch of lost kids still in danger, and offer to lead them to safety.
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Re: Logon

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:07 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Spoiler:
I actually somewhat got the impression that it was affecting current mutants - both because of the green medicine that enhanced their powers temporarily, and because I believe they specifically mentioned CRISPR.
Spoiler:
It's implied that the green medicine was specifically developed for X-24 -- to both enhance his healing abilities and place him in enraged berzerker murderface mode.
Also, CRISPR would just be a vector, wouldn't it?

Either way, the movie never said anything that implied that mutant powers had gone away or diminished -- the only thing that came up (and, in fact, a major theme of the movie) was the notion that
Spoiler:
mutant children are no longer being born
.
Izawwlgood wrote:
Spoiler:
Then why the conversation about how he was leaving her once he got her to her friends? That's not something Logan would do - Logan would see a bunch of lost kids still in danger, and offer to lead them to safety.
Spoiler:
Because he was literally dying, and was concerned he would only slow them down. Also, he didn't want his daughter to have to go through the pain of watching him die while he was slowing them down.

Also, this story is about Logan having lost his way; he no longer wishes to be part of a family -- he just wants to die. He wants to take Xavier somewhere nice and quiet, wait for him to die peacefully, then follow suit (that's the whole point of the boat, and why he's carrying around that bullet). The story is, in large part, about getting Logan to a point where he actually wants to be part of the world -- or, at least, part of a community in that world -- again.

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Re: Logon

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:03 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Spoiler:
It's implied that the green medicine was specifically developed for X-24 -- to both enhance his healing abilities and place him in enraged berzerker murderface mode.

Spoiler:
Wasn't there something about Logan's healing factor (enhanced by the green stuff injection) then also cancelling out the green stuff, ironically, for being a foreign substance?

I thought the green stuff was just created to enhance (generic) mutants, and that Xs 10, 23-23 and 24 really couldn't use it as anything more than a self-negating 'pep' that would freshen them up (speed up their 'natural' healing) by using a large dose, even whilst the other X-23 kids could gain long-term (if not permanent) heightening of their natures by being given a little of the stuff... Prior experiences probably proving that overdoses like Logan's would cause the problems that led to the inefficiencies and losses to the project which heralded its termination, not to mention some of the losses to the Reavers that led to their active prosthetic replacement limbs.

X24 just was angry, through his 'nurturing', as had been Laura throughout her mute-and-mostly-feral stage of the movie, and Logan was desperate enough to protect everyone to use the bottle as a last resort, so was already motivated to be an avenging angel.


I think I'm open to being wrong about that all. Just my impressions. Probably doesn't matter.

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Re: Logon

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:24 am UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
Spoiler:
I thought the green stuff was just created to enhance (generic) mutants, and that Xs 10, 23-23 and 24 really couldn't use it as anything more than a self-negating 'pep' that would freshen them up (speed up their 'natural' healing) by using a large dose, even whilst the other X-23 kids could gain long-term (if not permanent) heightening of their natures by being given a little of the stuff... Prior experiences probably proving that overdoses like Logan's would cause the problems that led to the inefficiencies and losses to the project which heralded its termination, not to mention some of the losses to the Reavers that led to their active prosthetic replacement limbs.

X24 just was angry, through his 'nurturing', as had been Laura throughout her mute-and-mostly-feral stage of the movie, and Logan was desperate enough to protect everyone to use the bottle as a last resort, so was already motivated to be an avenging angel.
Hm. My recollection might be shaky here, but: As I recall, Logan mentions at one point -- when they're about to give him the green medicine -- that it turns you berzerk; one of the other characters mentions that it's okay so long as he takes it in small doses. As both berzerk rage and healing are Logan things, I presumed that this meant the green medicine was formulated strictly for Logan and anyone with Logan's DNA.

I suppose we could also presume the green medicine is for enhancing mutant powers in general -- maybe Logan's berzerk rage is part of his mutation, and this makes the green medicine dangerous for him and X-23? Because it doesn't just turn their healing up to 11 -- it turns all their mutant powers up to 11, including their rage. I didn't take it that way, but I could see that being another valid interpretation.

Regardless, the green medicine was brought up in this thread as evidence that mutants are losing their powers in this setting (and the green medicine 'restores' them, or otherwise counteracts this effect). I don't think that's the case with either interpretation -- everyone's powers seem to be working fine. The issue isn't that powers are disappearing -- it's that some mutants' powers are malfunctioning because they're getting older or suffering from various unrelated degenerative conditions.

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Re: Logon

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:44 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:It's implied that the green medicine was specifically developed for X-24 -- to both enhance his healing abilities and place him in enraged berzerker murderface mode.
That was not the impression I got at all - at least considering the kids knew about it, and I think were injected with it during test montages? The notion of 'X-factor enhancer' substances is sort of used in all the stories. All of them.

The Great Hippo wrote:Also, CRISPR would just be a vector, wouldn't it?
Well, sure, in the way that 'genetic engineering' is just the vector for what is actually being done. I thought they were mentioning it to imply that everyone was being genetically modified. Sure, I wager the storyline was just that 'Adamentium was finally, rapidly poisoning Wolverine', but it seemed weird that they mentioned some other stuff too.

The Great Hippo wrote:Because he was literally dying, and was concerned he would only slow them down. Also, he didn't want his daughter to have to go through the pain of watching him die while he was slowing them down.

Also, this story is about Logan having lost his way; he no longer wishes to be part of a family -- he just wants to die. He wants to take Xavier somewhere nice and quiet, wait for him to die peacefully, then follow suit (that's the whole point of the boat, and why he's carrying around that bullet). The story is, in large part, about getting Logan to a point where he actually wants to be part of the world -- or, at least, part of a community in that world -- again.
Fair, and good assessment. As I said in my first comment here, I think it's the mark of a good character that seeing them in a bad place upsets you, and you don't want them to die, or lose hope, etc. I've seen a lot of shit befall Wolverine, but never hopelessness and never death.

As for the notion that he was protecting them by staying away, I'm not so sure. He clearly knew they were being pursued, and I wager if he took the green stuff over a period of time, it may have cured him.

I didn't take the bullet to SOLELY be an indicator of his intent to commit suicide. He states that it's a symbolic reminder of what he is, and what it would take to kill him, so one could also surmise that it's a reminder of how fragile his existence is. Adamantium weaponry isn't new to the series, and a bullet is a remarkably simple, small, innocuous item. It can be used in any gun of the right caliber, and will kill anything it's fired at, including him.
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Re: Logon

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:35 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:As for the notion that he was protecting them by staying away, I'm not so sure. He clearly knew they were being pursued, and I wager if he took the green stuff over a period of time, it may have cured him.

Until he saw the drone-swarm (nobody having noticed the first recon drone), I don't think that anybody not legitimately in on the original rendezvous secret seriously thought that what was (effectively) a geohashing point was in any way known about by the retrieval-squad. It came as a surprise to Logan that there had been an agreement to wait only until the (by this point in the story) next day.

Had they been tardy in arriving then there would have been no group to meet them (not something Laura was explicit about, even when she starts talking, although she still conveyed urgency so she probably knew), had they been undiverted and got there quicker then the snatch-squad (assuming the same clue got passed to them earlier in time) might have caught them pre-yomp. Had the original group arbitrarily decided upon the day before as the arbitrary cut-off, they'd have had a free pass to trek everybody (except Logan, who hadn't yet revived properly) away and over the border before the final pursuit could be organised.

(I forget where the bad guy got the details from. Somebody's piece of paper? The envelope that Logan's cash-'advance' came in?)

Of course, this is all Plot-And-Trope stuff. A set of coincidences in timing that, happening in a certain improbable way, produces this story (which someone thought it worthwhile to tell). Had a different mix of coincidences instead occured, it would have been a different story. Which may or may not have worked, but certainly wasn't told in this instance. And it's something that applies to all fiction. (Although the likes of Sliding Doors or (Nicholas Cage's) Next sometimes manage to play with this by telling multiple such subset-stories. Either in a glorious whole like SD, or... the way Next did it, at least in the famous Searching The Location scene...)

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Re: Logon

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:18 pm UTC

I know my memory of the film is not entirely reliable at this point - I know I made the connection that the genetic manipulation was weakening Logan's regenerative powers at the time, but I forget what exactly prompted that.

I'm also having trouble remembering any other mutants aside from Charles (whose powers were definitely degraded), Logan, Caliban (whose powers I don't have a baseline for), and the products of the project (who would have been exposed to whatever antidote or counter-therapy is available as part of the project). The fact mutants are a dead issue suggests there's more to it than just no more new mutants emerging - and if the treatment only prevented mutants from being born, it would be more than a decade of exposure before teenagers stopped manifesting powers, and even then there would still be many thousands of people with extraordinary abilities. I find it literally incredible that they'd all disappear from public awareness even after the Westchester Incident removed the X-Men (and, if we're very lucky, the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants too) unless their powers were also waning.

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Re: Logon

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:30 am UTC

I don't think Chuck's powers were degraded. He was capable (without the benefit of any tech-type enhancement like Cerebro) to unintentionally (or maybe not) burn through the remnants of a suppression drug that wouldn't yet have cleared his system (despite missing a dose or two) and psychically paralyse hundreds, maybe thousands, of people within and around a fairly large block of real-estate.

His ability to control his abilities were apparently degraded. (But he still could briefly muster a more controlled version of his powers "sensibly", at the roadside, to help that family, so it wasn't a full-spectrum power-suppressant, just a 'regular' anti-seizure thing, but still the implication that only the skipping of doses allowed the paralysis aegis to be used at that precise moment.)


Difficult to know how powerful, or in control, he would have been with/without various historic and contemporary factors, though. Westchester might have been 'more nuclear' prior to the medication or environmental effects kicking in, or it could just have been more deadly due to the unexpectedness of the attack (in a place where everybody who was anybody had gathered) and nobody knew what to do (who could do anything, which sounds like just Logan, and not even Charles, given Caliban obviously had been through it before in his role as assistant 'nurse') when it actually happened that first time.

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Re: Logon

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:57 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Well, sure, in the way that 'genetic engineering' is just the vector for what is actually being done. I thought they were mentioning it to imply that everyone was being genetically modified. Sure, I wager the storyline was just that 'Adamentium was finally, rapidly poisoning Wolverine', but it seemed weird that they mentioned some other stuff too.
Why's that weird? If you wanted to prevent mutants, you would have to genetically modify everybody. Or, at least, you'd need a vector that can access everyone's DNA and ensure that the relevant genes are always deactivated.

Also, I'm not a biologist, but I'm pretty sure if I turn off all the genes in you that make you tall, you won't become short... but your children might. Similarly, if I turn off the x-gene that gave me my powers, I probably won't lose my powers... but my children certainly won't inherit them.

It's probably more complicated than that -- I imagine there are genes that continue to have an impact on our biology all throughout our lives. So maybe some mutants did see their powers go haywire? But the simplest explanation here is that Zander Rice engineered a vector that modified people's DNA by turning off the x-gene -- preventing the expression of any new powers outside of tightly controlled circumstances.
rmsgrey wrote: The fact mutants are a dead issue suggests there's more to it than just no more new mutants emerging - and if the treatment only prevented mutants from being born, it would be more than a decade of exposure before teenagers stopped manifesting powers, and even then there would still be many thousands of people with extraordinary abilities.
Well, mutant powers are portrayed as manifesting typically around puberty. Presuming the genetic alteration not only prevented passing on the x-gene -- but prevented the expression of the x-gene in the first place (in other words, once infected, you wouldn't manifest any powers you hadn't already manifested)... that means any mutant who hasn't hit puberty at the time of exposure is no longer a mutant.

Presuming it happened ten years ago (can't remember if we receive a timeline, honestly), that means that by 2029, the youngest mutant in the world is going to be in their mid-twenties. Considering the setting's premise of anti-mutant sentiment (increasing the likelihood of mutant deaths) -- and the lack of new mutants entering the world -- it seems pretty credible to me that people would think of mutants as 'old news'.

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Re: Logon

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:58 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
rmsgrey wrote: The fact mutants are a dead issue suggests there's more to it than just no more new mutants emerging - and if the treatment only prevented mutants from being born, it would be more than a decade of exposure before teenagers stopped manifesting powers, and even then there would still be many thousands of people with extraordinary abilities.
Well, mutant powers are portrayed as manifesting typically around puberty. Presuming the genetic alteration not only prevented passing on the x-gene -- but prevented the expression of the x-gene in the first place (in other words, once infected, you wouldn't manifest any powers you hadn't already manifested)... that means any mutant who hasn't hit puberty at the time of exposure is no longer a mutant.

Presuming it happened ten years ago (can't remember if we receive a timeline, honestly), that means that by 2029, the youngest mutant in the world is going to be in their mid-twenties. Considering the setting's premise of anti-mutant sentiment (increasing the likelihood of mutant deaths) -- and the lack of new mutants entering the world -- it seems pretty credible to me that people would think of mutants as 'old news'.


I think it's 25 years since the last (public) new mutant - meaning the youngest mutants would be in their mid 30s - not necessarily the idealistic late-teens/early-20s of the classic XMen, but still in their prime and capable of exerting their will upon the world if they still have their full power...

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Re: Logon

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:08 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:I think it's 25 years since the last (public) new mutant - meaning the youngest mutants would be in their mid 30s - not necessarily the idealistic late-teens/early-20s of the classic XMen, but still in their prime and capable of exerting their will upon the world if they still have their full power...
Right, but -- and I realize I'm citing fictitious narratives as evidence for how other fictitious narratives should go -- think 'Children of Men', here. Mutants can't have children; they literally have lost their future, and they don't even know why (it appears to have occurred via natural causes). All the optimism you get from mutants perceiving themselves as being the future vanishes... and mutant communities start to slowly unravel and decay.

They're no longer an existential threat to humanity -- and there's no young, fresh, optimistic mutants arriving to keep these communities alive and motivated. As for the dangerous ones -- Magneto's scary, sure... up until you realize you can kill him with a plastic bullet. Mutants like Magneto need these communities to survive; they can't face every threat alone, and as the communities that protect them start to crumble, they'll die with them. The most dangerous and outspoken mutants are either going to be killed, imprisoned, or driven into hiding -- and the rest? They're just going to keep their heads down and try to live out the rest of their lives.

This is the sort of threat that no amount of adamantium claws or eye-lasers can address -- it's the threat of being made irrelevant. People know where Professor Xavier is and they're not even going after him. Why bother? He's suffering from dementia and his powers aren't working right. Just give it a while; time will kill him just as well as a bullet would.

(In case it's not obvious, I really like the narrative trope that Logan is using here. Instead of fighting the Brotherhood -- or the military, or some pseudo-Egyptian mutant Over-God -- the threat that Logan and Xavier confront is their own growing irrelevance... which is the whole point of Laura and company. Giving them back some piece of relevance, community, and family.)

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Re: Logon

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:29 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:(In case it's not obvious, I really like the narrative trope that Logan is using here. Instead of fighting the Brotherhood -- or the military, or some pseudo-Egyptian mutant Over-God -- the threat that Logan and Xavier confront is their own growing irrelevance... which is the whole point of Laura and company. Giving them back some piece of relevance, community, and family.)

I like the symbolism of the same thing that's figuratively destroying their power also literally destroying their power. And the same agency that gives them some temporary relevance also gives them temporary power through the green serum.

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Re: Logon

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:39 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:I like the symbolism of the same thing that's figuratively destroying their power also literally destroying their power. And the same agency that gives them some temporary relevance also gives them temporary power through the green serum.
Hm. If by that, you mean you think it works better to have Xander Rice's bio-weapon not just suppressing new mutants from manifesting, but suppressing or otherwise interfering with the powers of pre-existing mutants -- I can see what you mean by the symbolism. I hadn't thought of it that way, but it certainly works.

I never got that impression while watching the movie. The way I saw it was -- Logan's powers are malfunctioning because of adamantium poisoning; Xavier's powers are malfunctioning because of an undisclosed neurological disorder (telepaths with brain problems are dangerous). Caliban's powers are working just fine, which implied to me that the bio-weapon didn't interfere with pre-existing powers. It just prevented the manifestation of new mutants, which caused mutant communities to crumble -- which, in turn, forced the more public (and powerful) mutants into hiding, prison, or death.

That being said, I'm not going to argue that it's an invalid interpretation; I can even see how your interpretation enhances the movie's already potent symbolism.

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Re: Logon

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:40 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Why's that weird? If you wanted to prevent mutants, you would have to genetically modify everybody. Or, at least, you'd need a vector that can access everyone's DNA and ensure that the relevant genes are always deactivated.
If you google around "what was poisoning wolverine" you'll get a bunch of stuff about how it's actually quite unclear, and maybe related to different timelines being rewritten. I know 'adamantium poisoned Wolverine' is part of the comics, but 'Wolverine as an effective Immortal' is a far more common storyarc than 'Wolverine is dying and can't heal anymore'.

Accordingly, when the movie kind of handwaved around some potential explanations for why his healing power was being diminished, it seems odd that they would be deliberately vague about it.

So, yes - if in this point in the worlds history, CRISPR is being used to deactivate or delete the X-gene in the worlds populace, it seems a likely and probable route for clearing out all the worlds mutants, existing or potential.

The Great Hippo wrote:Also, I'm not a biologist, but I'm pretty sure if I turn off all the genes in you that make you tall, you won't become short... but your children might. Similarly, if I turn off the x-gene that gave me my powers, I probably won't lose my powers... but my children certainly won't inherit them.
As a biologist, and more importantly and relevantly, a comic book fan, I believe within the Marvel canon that the deactivation of the X-gene can eliminate mutant powers in adult, functional mutants, and conversely, activation of the X-gene in non-mutant adults can cause mutant powers to manifest. This is also part of the plot of at least two of the X-men films iirc.

The Great Hippo wrote:But the simplest explanation here is that Zander Rice engineered a vector that modified people's DNA by turning off the x-gene -- preventing the expression of any new powers outside of tightly controlled circumstances.
Agreed - and I think one of those circumstances includes the administration of that green medicine that enhanced/turned on mutant powers.

rmsgrey wrote:I think it's 25 years since the last (public) new mutant - meaning the youngest mutants would be in their mid 30s - not necessarily the idealistic late-teens/early-20s of the classic XMen, but still in their prime and capable of exerting their will upon the world if they still have their full power...
I found this part kind of weird - the movie is set in the future, and 'things have changed!', but it's not really THAT far into the future. A lot can happen in 7 years, sure, but it seemed like the biggest change was that automated trucks are on the high way.

I adore the notion of an aging, ailing Professor X being cared for by Logan, but I'd almost have preferred they hamstring together something to make it REALLY in the future. 100 years in the future, when the history of mutants is obfuscated by time, and multiple generations of genetically modified humans have somewhat moved past the events of Genosha and Sentinel purges and such. Maybe Wolverine has been wandering again, and Professor X has been cryogenically frozen, or isolated himself in a mind chrysalis, whatever, insaner things have happened - the point is, 7 years later wasn't really that dramatic a spin on things for me.
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Re: Logon

Postby Zohar » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:59 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Accordingly, when the movie kind of handwaved around some potential explanations for why his healing power was being diminished, it seems odd that they would be deliberately vague about it.

I don't mind it - to me, the more interesting part of the movie was seeing the dynamics between people and what Wolverine growing old meant for his character. I'm not against analyzing a movie, of course, but I understand they chose not to go into details and decided to just say "This is a thing that's happening, let's see where this goes".
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Re: Logon

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:46 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Accordingly, when the movie kind of handwaved around some potential explanations for why his healing power was being diminished, it seems odd that they would be deliberately vague about it.

I don't mind it - to me, the more interesting part of the movie was seeing the dynamics between people and what Wolverine growing old meant for his character. I'm not against analyzing a movie, of course, but I understand they chose not to go into details and decided to just say "This is a thing that's happening, let's see where this goes".
Fair, and given his Weapon X mindwipe, it's possible/probable/likely that the concept of aging is still new and strange to him. The bromance between him and Charles was absolutely something strong enough to carry a good portion of the film, and I think that's a major point in it's favor.

To be clear here, I do think some of my misgivings/complaints are that I really like these characters, and they've been part of my storyverse for almost my entire life. When something bad happens to them that I wish didn't happen to them, it bugs me. I felt the death of Superman was one of the best things to happen to his storyline, in part because that was just ONE of his storylines. Wolverine has lost his healing factor and died before, and I've liked those storylines, but ultimately, I still dislike seeing 'bad things' happen to him or Charles.

And I think it's the mark of a good story or at least good characters that you, the audience, care about them.
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Re: Logon

Postby Weeks » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:20 pm UTC

I recently rewatched this and realized there is a reference to, of all things, Count von Count, in the water pump scene where Logan and the dad from thr Munson family are confronted by some cowboys. I dont think I caught that in the cinema
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Re: Logon

Postby SDK » Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:51 pm UTC

... I don't get it. Because he counts to three?
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Re: Logon

Postby Weeks » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:47 am UTC

SDK wrote:... I don't get it. Because he counts to three?
Ah ah ah!

Might be a stretch I guess? It just kinda fits. Especially with subs
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Re: Logon

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:14 pm UTC

Seems a real stretch to me.

Now, if the guy was going Ah ah ah after every number...
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