Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductive

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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby elasto » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:31 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:We might have the means to address the problems of population for the next ten years, but what about the next ten years after that? Or the next ten years after that? Why not take steps now to address that problem?

Because the problems that we'll actually have in the decades after this one will likely not be the ones we thought we'd have.

Take the Horse Manure Crisis of the last century:

We commonly read or hear reports to the effect that “If trend X continues, the result will be disaster.” The subject can be almost anything, but the pattern of these stories is identical. These reports take a current trend and extrapolate it into the future as the basis for their gloomy prognostications. The conclusion is, to quote a character from a famous British sitcom, “We’re doomed, I tell you. We’re doomed!” Unless, that is, we mend our ways according to the author’s prescription. This almost invariably involves restrictions on personal liberty.

These prophets of doom rely on one thing—that their audience will not check the record of such predictions. In fact, the history of prophecy is one of failure and oversight. Many predictions (usually of doom) have not come to pass, while other things have happened that nobody foresaw. Even brief research will turn up numerous examples of both, such as the many predictions in the 1930s—about a decade before the baby boom began—that the populations of most Western countries were about to enter a terminal decline. In other cases, people have made predictions that have turned out to be laughably overmodest, such as the nineteenth-century editor’s much-ridiculed forecast that by 1950 every town in America would have a telephone, or Bill Gates’s remark a few years ago that 64 kilobytes of memory is enough for anyone.

The fundamental problem with most predictions of this kind, and particularly the gloomy ones, is that they make a critical, false assumption: that things will go on as they are. This assumption in turn comes from overlooking one of the basic insights of economics: that people respond to incentives. In a system of free exchange, people receive all kinds of signals that lead them to solve problems. The prophets of doom come to their despondent conclusions because in their world, nobody has any kind of creativity or independence of thought—except for themselves of course.

A classic example of this is a problem that was getting steadily worse about a hundred years ago, so much so that it drove most observers to despair. This was the great horse-manure crisis.

Nineteenth-century cities depended on thousands of horses for their daily functioning. All transport, whether of goods or people, was drawn by horses. London in 1900 had 11,000 cabs, all horse-powered. There were also several thousand buses, each of which required 12 horses per day, a total of more than 50,000 horses. In addition, there were countless carts, drays, and wains, all working constantly to deliver the goods needed by the rapidly growing population of what was then the largest city in the world. Similar figures could be produced for any great city of the time.*

The problem of course was that all these horses produced huge amounts of manure. A horse will on average produce between 15 and 35 pounds of manure per day. Consequently, the streets of nineteenth-century cities were covered by horse manure. This in turn attracted huge numbers of flies, and the dried and ground-up manure was blown everywhere. In New York in 1900, the population of 100,000 horses produced 2.5 million pounds of horse manure per day, which all had to be swept up and disposed of.

In 1898 the first international urban-planning conference convened in New York. It was abandoned after three days, instead of the scheduled ten, because none of the delegates could see any solution to the growing crisis posed by urban horses and their output.

The problem did indeed seem intractable. The larger and richer that cities became, the more horses they needed to function. The more horses, the more manure. Writing in the Times of London in 1894, one writer estimated that in 50 years every street in London would be buried under nine feet of manure. Moreover, all these horses had to be stabled, which used up ever-larger areas of increasingly valuable land. And as the number of horses grew, ever-more land had to be devoted to producing hay to feed them (rather than producing food for people), and this had to be brought into cities and distributed—by horse-drawn vehicles. It seemed that urban civilization was doomed.

Of course, urban civilization was not buried in manure. The great crisis vanished when millions of horses were replaced by motor vehicles. This was possible because of the ingenuity of inventors and entrepreneurs such as Gottlieb Daimler and Henry Ford, and a system that gave them the freedom to put their ideas into practice. Even more important, however, was the existence of the price mechanism. The problems described earlier meant that the price of horse-drawn transport rose steadily as the cost of feeding and housing horses increased. This created strong incentives for people to find alternatives.

No doubt in the Paleolithic era there was panic about the growing exhaustion of flint supplies. Somehow the great flint crisis, like the great horse-manure crisis, never came to pass.

The closest modern counterpart to the late nineteenth-century panic about horse manure is agitation about the future course of oil prices. The price of crude oil is rising, partly due to political uncertainty, but primarily because of rapid growth in China and India. This has led to a spate of articles predicting that oil production will soon peak, that prices will rise, and that, given the central part played by oil products in the modern economy, we are facing intractable problems. We’re doomed!

What this misses is that in a competitive market economy, as any resource becomes more costly, human ingenuity will find alternatives.

We should draw two lessons from this. First, human beings, left to their own devices, will usually find solutions to problems, but only if they are allowed to; that is, if they have economic institutions, such as property rights and free exchange, that create the right incentives and give them the freedom to respond. If these are absent or are replaced by political mechanisms, problems will not be solved.

Second, the sheer difficulty of predicting the future, and in particular of foreseeing the outcome of human creativity, is yet another reason for rejecting the planning or controlling of people’s choices. Above all, we should reject the currently fashionable “precautionary principle,” which would forbid the use of any technology until proved absolutely harmless.

Left to themselves, our grandparents solved the great horse-manure problem. If things had been left to the urban planners, they would almost certainly have turned out worse.


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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:11 am UTC

elasto wrote:Because the problems that we'll actually have in the decades after this one will likely not be the ones we thought we'd have.

Take the Horse Manure Crisis of the last century:
Oh, come on. Seriously? We're not talking about some unexpected challenge that will be put to rest forever by another technological innovation. Yes, cars rendered horses obsolete, nullifying the problem. What sort of magical science-spell do you expect biology wizards to weave that will forever render concerns about population obsolete?

The horse manure crisis is an example of a technological innovation (domesticated horses!) that lead to a problem (horse manure!) that was addressed by another technological innovation (automobiles!). This has zero relevance to what we're talking about. The question of overpopulation--of a growing surplus of people and the resulting competition for resources--is a fundamental problem of life. We have been dealing with this shit since our tribal days. What do you think will solve it like the example you're using here? Replacing all of humanity with robots, maybe? Yeah, don't hold your breath.

Here's an idea: Instead of waiting for magical solutions to be handed down to us on high by the eldritch Science Gods, why don't we exercise a little responsibility now--and reap the benefits of a society that doesn't have uncontrolled population booms rippling through it every other generation or so?
CorruptUser wrote:It's supposed to be a simplification, to explain the general idea. In reality, science can be diminishing returns. Or exponential returns. It's very erratic; a discovery could be made after 10 hours or 10 decades. An earlier scientist may have found the 'easy' discoveries so it may take twenty scientists to find a breakthrough on the equivalent level. But the general idea is that more people has meant more scientists which has meant more tech more quickly, which broke the cycle of permanent squalor.
Is this just another version of the "have more babies because one of them might be the next Einstein" point? Because it was nonsense then, and it's nonsense now.

Let me ask you again: Which do you think is the greater crisis science faces--a lack of great scientists, or a lack of money and resources in their respective fields?
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby morriswalters » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:13 am UTC

Well all this technology that we are so fond of(for disclosure, I have more than my fair share), may be more of a product of information technology than anything else. Effectively books were an early form of networking which made information transmission easier. Computers have accelerated that process. The existence of any one person has less of an impact than the ability to share data quickly and widely. One way to think of it is group intelligence. This is obvious when you consider the vast amounts of information generated today. The ability of any one man to assimilate it vanishes as the amount of data increases.

In terms of agriculture efficiency in China consider this. The more efficient that agriculture becomes the more likely it is that production will increase. The more a farmer can produce the more money he can make. Greater production means the water savings are lost. A perverse incentive. This is true in the US, we grow far more than we consume, so money drives the process.

There are any number of things we could do, but it generally is a reflection of the micro cosmos that is this forum. There are a lot of competing points of view and little or no consensus.

Hey I like that horse manure story.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:16 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:Hey I like that horse manure story.
It's a cute story--but it's also one that's completely irrelevant, and I'm mildly miffed that it was presented as if it was.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:31 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Let me ask you again: Which do you think is the greater crisis science faces--a lack of great scientists, or a lack of money and resources in their respective fields?


The lack of scientists. Science doesn't face a lack of resources so much as a brain drain from the Finance sectors; plenty of brilliant physicists go into Finance because of the pay. If that is what you are referring to by a "lack of resources", then maybe we can that it's a problem, but to me it's more of "the economy isn't pricing science properly" rather than "we don't have the resources for research".

Modern society has plenty of resources available for science. Reducing population won't make that much more resource available for science. It's getting society to spend on science instead of all the frivolous stuff; it's mind-boggling to think about how much is spent on sports each year. I have to wonder if diverting most of Medicaid/Medicare/SocSec to NASA would help the economy more...
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby morriswalters » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:38 am UTC

Read that as sarcasm. Then again why do I bother? Goodnight.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:39 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The lack of scientists. Science doesn't face a lack of resources so much as a brain drain from the Finance sectors; plenty of brilliant physicists go into Finance because of the pay. If that is what you are referring to by a "lack of resources", then maybe we can agree on that point, but to me it's more of "the economy isn't pricing science properly" rather than "we don't have the resources for research".
Are you just citing a specific, unique problem and attempting to generalize it to make your point? Or is this an actual problem that the hard sciences are encountering--a sudden lack of scientists caused by an inadequate resources? Assuming this is an actual problem in the fields of science, why do you think a gradual decrease in population would accelerate this problem?

I have never heard any scientific-minded person utter the words 'you know, there aren't enough creative, dedicated people in my field'. Are there any career scientists reading this who feel this way? Or the opposite way?
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:40 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Let me ask you again: Which do you think is the greater crisis science faces--a lack of great scientists, or a lack of money and resources in their respective fields?


The lack of scientists. Science doesn't face a lack of resources so much as a brain drain from the Finance sectors; plenty of brilliant physicists go into Finance because of the pay. If that is what you are referring to by a "lack of resources", then maybe we can agree on that point, but to me it's more of "the economy isn't pricing science properly" rather than "we don't have the resources for research".


As someone who works in physics, my personal experience is that lack of funds is way more of a problem than lack of people. Every time we post a tenure-track job at the university, we have literally hundreds of qualified applicants (that is, physics Ph.Ds with good research experience and a post-doc or two under their belts) for a single position. Finding great people is easy. Finding money to pay them, or buy equipment, is the hard part.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby lutzj » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:24 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Let me ask you again: Which do you think is the greater crisis science faces--a lack of great scientists, or a lack of money and resources in their respective fields?


The lack of scientists. Science doesn't face a lack of resources so much as a brain drain from the Finance sectors; plenty of brilliant physicists go into Finance because of the pay. If that is what you are referring to by a "lack of resources", then maybe we can agree on that point, but to me it's more of "the economy isn't pricing science properly" rather than "we don't have the resources for research".


As someone who works in physics, my personal experience is that lack of funds is way more of a problem than lack of people. Every time we post a tenure-track job at the university, we have literally hundreds of qualified applicants (that is, physics Ph.Ds with good research experience and a post-doc or two under their belts) for a single position. Finding great people is easy. Finding money to pay them, or buy equipment, is the hard part.


And, as CorruptUser keeps saying, the shortages modern scientists face have more to do with allocation than actual shortages of resources. If our society diverted money from, say, television programming to research laboratories, we could equip the world's scientists several times over.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:26 am UTC

So the solution is to have scientists sell adspace!
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby nitePhyyre » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:57 am UTC

What do you love to do?

Hippo and Laser, the people you are talking about answer that question with "Science".
The people CU is talking about answer that question with "Whatever will make me boatloads of cash."

Iulus Cofield wrote:So the solution is to have scientists sell adspace!
No. That's the problem.

CorruptUser wrote:Think of it this way, 1 in 100,000 people is a great scientist discovers a single thing that increases total output by just 1%, through some discovery like crop rotation or new medicine, whatever. So roughly every 100,000 people who have lived, the carrying capacity increases by 1%. Generation 1 has 100,000 people, it can now support 101,000. Generation 2 has 1.01 breakthroughs for a total of 2.01 breakthroughs, so now it can support 100,000(1.01^2.01) or 102,020 people. It is not growing by a true exponential each generation but by a towering exponential [kinda simplified the math, the formula will be something like POP(t) = (POP(0)e^(kt)^(kt))], which can overtake regular exponentials. Skip to the generation with 20,000,000 people. It now has room for 140,630,000 people. But unless every couple has more than 14 kids, then the capacity has increased by more than the population can possibly grow. So now, finally, people can begin to move out of squalor. Which is what has happened.

So more people = more science.
All you've shown is that more people = more science = more resources = more people ... etc. Even in your highly idealized and over simplified scenario, you haven't demonstrated causality. Your example started after the trend started, then all you bothered to show was that economic output and population and scientists all go up together.

The question is: When the population was just 999,999 and carrying capacity == economic production, where did you get that first scientist ?

CorruptUser wrote:The lack of scientists. Science doesn't face a lack of resources so much as a brain drain from the Finance sectors; plenty of brilliant physicists go into Finance because of the pay. If that is what you are referring to by a "lack of resources", then maybe we can that it's a problem, but to me it's more of "the economy isn't pricing science properly" rather than "we don't have the resources for research".
How the hell do you get: "the economy isn't pricing science properly, therefore, having more scientists is a greater benefit to science than having more resources for science"?

To bring it to extremes, do would you prefer one scientist with infinite resources, or infinite scientists with 1 dollar?
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby lutzj » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:00 am UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:To bring it to extremes, do would you prefer one scientist with infinite resources, or infinite scientists with 1 dollar?


Infinite scientists gets you infinite science.

One very well-supplied scientist gets you some finite amount, which could be very small if that person isn't talented.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby nitePhyyre » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:57 am UTC

lutzj wrote:
nitePhyyre wrote:To bring it to extremes, do would you prefer one scientist with infinite resources, or infinite scientists with 1 dollar?

Infinite scientists gets you infinite science.
One very well-supplied scientist gets you some finite amount, which could be very small if that person isn't talented.
The infinite scientist option gets you infinite starved and dead scientists.

And no science.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby lutzj » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:05 am UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:The infinite scientist option gets you infinite starved and dead scientists.

And no science.


Well, if we're really assuming infinite scientists, one of them will be brilliant enough to covert $1 into a large amount of food. He could feed the other scientists.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby addams » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:27 am UTC

lutzj wrote:
nitePhyyre wrote:The infinite scientist option gets you infinite starved and dead scientists.

And no science.


Well, if we're really assuming infinite scientists, one of them will be brilliant enough to covert $1 into a large amount of food. He could feed the other scientists.


Of course, I do not understand this conversation. Who is starving, today?
What can be done about it?

Spoiler:
Fine. Who is a Scientist? They eat. The rest starve?

What?! How do you do that?
Sure. It looks good on computer screen.

What? Are you one of those Jesus believers? "If, you are 'right' with the Lord, then, all things will be for you. You will live in a State of Grace."

What? Do you see yourself as an insider that will be cared for, because, "Science!" Or; An outsider that will be left watching while others eat?

I do not understand.
Is this about Quantity of life?; Quality of Life?; or Both?
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby elasto » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:44 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
morriswalters wrote:Hey I like that horse manure story.
It's a cute story--but it's also one that's completely irrelevant, and I'm mildly miffed that it was presented as if it was.

It's not completely irrelevant. It exactly answered the question you posed which was 'if we know a problem is going to hit us in a few decades time, why not try to tackle it now?' The article exposed quite surgically that the problems we expect to occur (and that includes overpopulation - or, the worry of the 1930s which was 'Western populations entering terminal decline') typically never end up occurring. Instead, problems totally out of left-field - eg. ocean acidification - end up occurring instead.

Oh, come on. Seriously? We're not talking about some unexpected challenge that will be put to rest forever by another technological innovation. Yes, cars rendered horses obsolete, nullifying the problem. What sort of magical science-spell do you expect biology wizards to weave that will forever render concerns about population obsolete?

I doubt any 'magical science-spell' will be needed at all. History has shown that as societies get wealthier the birth-rate drops - often below replacement level. If post-scarcity hits us - which could easily happen this century - then it could quite easily be that the global population stabilises all on its own.

From Wikipedia:

At present, the total fertility rate is high in poor countries with poor health infrastructure, but it tends to drop to replacement levels or lower once a nation reaches a per capita income of roughly $10,000.[10] In fact, virtually every wealthy OECD nation currently has a total fertility rate that is below replacement levels, implying a coming population decline for the west. Due to the decline in fertility that tends to accompany wealth (of the 233 countries listed by the CIA for fertility, 100 have fertility rates below replacement rates), human population is expected to stabilize at near 9 billion by 2050.


Two 'magical science-spells' come to mind though, since you ask: People moving off-world - eg in hollowed out asteroids - and people choosing to live as electronic copies of themselves.

I imagine that way before those solutions are needed, though, the three sciences of nanotechnology, genetic engineering and artificial intelligence will combine to increase crop yields dramatically beyond anything we could possibly imagine today. I agree with the previous poster that, since the Industrial Revolution, scientific advances are racing forwards much faster than population growth, and, outside of global warfare, I see no reason for that trend to ever now reverse.

Science can't deal with indefinite exponential population growth though, sure. If the human population grows at the rate it did in 1994 for the next 6000 years, humanity's mass will exceed the estimated mass of the observable universe. Thankfully all the signs point to humanity voluntarily not growing at that rate, though.

TLDR: Let's deal with the problems we know are occurring today; Let's not waste too much thought on problems that may occur in decades time - since history shows humanity has a very poor record of guessing what's down the road.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby morriswalters » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:22 pm UTC

Science has a pretty good idea about what is happening today. You really don't need to look into the future. Certainly developed nations birthrates have dropped, but China's and India's haven't yet. The current thinking seems to be that we are living above our means now. That is that we are saturating the environments ability to absorb all the shit we create. Literally. When plotted over 200 years the population curve starts flat and then goes almost vertical after 1900 or so.

The article exposed nothing. The Bill Gates quote is suspect, I did some research casually and couldn't find a source that could pinpoint when and where the quote came from, and Bill Gates denies it. As to the rest of it, it sounds good but before I would buy it as more than empty rhetoric I would need better sourcing. And if you can't predict the future accurately as the article says than how in the hell can you know that technology will solve the problems if they are found to exist.

Certainly farming today is already pretty efficient. It uses a number of techniques to accomplish this. Highly uniform crops designed to produce high yields, massive use of irrigation, and copious quantities of fertilizer. All of which are used in China. Certainly a large portion is lost to rot because of a poor distribution network. The only difference in the US is that we throw it away because we get too much of it to market. We waste more food.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:59 pm UTC

nitePhyyre wrote:The question is: When the population was just 999,999 and carrying capacity == economic production, where did you get that first scientist ?


I think you mean 99,999 in my example. It's not like those 99,999 dolts are immortal and don't have children. They die, and the first guy of the next generation is the scientist. Except it's more of 1 in 100,000 people is a scientist, so each 'crop' of people will produce a number of scientists roughly with a Poisson distribution with lambda equal to (population/100,000). For those that don't know much about probability, the Poisson distribution is p(X) = (e^l)(l^x)/(x!), (l is for lambda), which is the approximation for binomial distributions where l = n*p.

nitePhyyre wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:The lack of scientists. Science doesn't face a lack of resources so much as a brain drain from the Finance sectors; plenty of brilliant physicists go into Finance because of the pay. If that is what you are referring to by a "lack of resources", then maybe we can that it's a problem, but to me it's more of "the economy isn't pricing science properly" rather than "we don't have the resources for research".

How the hell do you get: "the economy isn't pricing science properly, therefore, having more scientists is a greater benefit to science than having more resources for science"?

To bring it to extremes, do would you prefer one scientist with infinite resources, or infinite scientists with 1 dollar?


It's not a therefore in there. My first response is that we don't have enough scientists. Part of the reason for this is that would-be scientists are not deterred because a lack of resources in society in general, but because surplus resources are diverted elsewhere. No, it's not because of overpopulation that those resources aren't available, it's because we'd rather spend more of our GDP on frivolous shit.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby addams » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:49 pm UTC

Frivolous shit like guns and armor piercing bullets and air to ground artillery and ground to air and big cars with bullet proof cages and the personal to operate all that shit. And; they need training (Not everyone is born knowing how to hot wire a D9.)
Frivolous shit like well armed Police. Fuck the education. They have guns! They don't need to know anything. They will be asking the questions and Fuck You, Scientist, if they can't understand the answer.

Frivolous shit, like, I don't know. What is more Frivolous than photos of deep space?

Did that seem hostel? I don't mean it to. But; All of Science, Art and Religion seem, kind of frivolous. The argument that we must be at war for, "God's Sake!" It is what we DO. I have heard so many times, that, I guess it must be true.

I hate it, but, it must be true.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:06 pm UTC

elasto wrote:It's not completely irrelevant. It exactly answered the question you posed which was 'if we know a problem is going to hit us in a few decades time, why not try to tackle it now?' The article exposed quite surgically that the problems we expect to occur (and that includes overpopulation - or, the worry of the 1930s which was 'Western populations entering terminal decline') typically never end up occurring. Instead, problems totally out of left-field - eg. ocean acidification - end up occurring instead.
Except, as I said before, problems with overpopulation have occurred, are in the process of occurring right now, and will continue occurring further down the line.

(By the way, how did ocean acidification become a problem? Right--the massive consumption of fossil fuels. And why do we have massive consumption of fossil fuels?--Right--because of our massive population.)
elasto wrote:I imagine that way before those solutions are needed, though, the three sciences of nanotechnology, genetic engineering and artificial intelligence will combine to increase crop yields dramatically beyond anything we could possibly imagine today. I agree with the previous poster that, since the Industrial Revolution, scientific advances are racing forwards much faster than population growth, and, outside of global warfare, I see no reason for that trend to ever now reverse.

Science can't deal with indefinite exponential population growth though, sure. If the human population grows at the rate it did in 1994 for the next 6000 years, humanity's mass will exceed the estimated mass of the observable universe. Thankfully all the signs point to humanity voluntarily not growing at that rate, though.

TLDR: Let's deal with the problems we know are occurring today; Let's not waste too much thought on problems that may occur in decades time - since history shows humanity has a very poor record of guessing what's down the road.
When I say 'problems of overpopulation', do you think I'm talking about some critical event in the near-future where everybody dies a horrible death? Because I'm not. I mean, do you know how many problems we face today, right now, that can be described in terms of 'too many people'? How many problems could be addressed by voluntarily reducing our population?

When I say we'll have more problems further down the line, it's only because there are so many problems we have right now that are directly linked to overpopulation that it's silly to think we won't find even more problems as our population continues to grow. Assuming science will find the answers in time is dangerously irresponsible. Take your example; do you think a responsible approach to ocean acidification is to sit on our asses and wait for science to save us? Or to take steps to reduce the massive consumption which causes it? Why shouldn't reducing our population over successive generations be one of those steps?



EDIT: Actually, looking back at the beginning of this thread now (which I should have done at the start!), I see that the article in question is one that distinguishes between the link of population growth and consumption. I've long assumed that population growth and consumption are intrinsically linked, and that many problems of consumption (human-driven climate change, for instance) are thereby products of overpopulation; glancing over at the article, I see the point that this might not be the case--that wild consumption might be a problem all of its own. I do know that we live in a society obsessed with planned obsolescence--and we're locked in a cycle of ever-escalating consumption--rather than reusing the resources available to us. I should probably step back and re-assess my perspective; the issues I have with overpopulation are probably better addressed as problems with a culture of massive consumption, not one of massive populations.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:44 pm UTC

It's not "let's just sit on our asses until science comes to the rescue", it's more "don't start forcing populations controls because it will inhibit the science".
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:50 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:It's not "let's just sit on our asses until science comes to the rescue", it's more "don't start forcing populations controls because it will inhibit the science".
My above 'maybe I should reassess' confession still standing, this remains a silly point. I've explicitly said gentle incentives, not controls--increasing the availability of birth control is also a great measure for reducing population (it increases women's autonomy and lowers population growth). And all that aside, your whole 'but less people means less scientists!' point is just a ridiculous oversimplification.

I mean, let's use your bizarro logic here for a second: Okay, less population means less scientists, which means less science. But it also means less criminals, which means less crime! And less Hitlers, which means less Holocausts! I bet it all equals out! Or something.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:14 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:It's not "let's just sit on our asses until science comes to the rescue", it's more "don't start forcing populations controls because it will inhibit the science".
My above 'maybe I should reassess' confession still standing, this remains a silly point. I've explicitly said gentle incentives, not controls--increasing the availability of birth control is also a great measure for reducing population (it increases women's autonomy and lowers population growth). And all that aside, your whole 'but less people means less scientists!' point is just a ridiculous oversimplification.

I mean, let's use your bizarro logic here for a second: Okay, less population means less scientists, which means less science. But it also means less criminals, which means less crime! And less Hitlers, which means less Holocausts! I bet it all equals out! Or something.


I am all for increased birth control, and subsidized abortions, and sex education. So yay, we agree on a few things.

As for bizarro logic, fewer criminals means less crime, but the crime rate is the same. You are just as safe whether you live in a city of 1M people with 1000 murders/year as you are in a town of 1k people with 1 murder/year. The thing about science, is that science is unlimited. If I, say, discover light bulbs, everyone gets light bulbs. 1 discovery for 1k people is not the same as 10 discoveries for 10k people.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby Zamfir » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:22 pm UTC

CU, when you talk about scientists, do you mean that literally? As in, you think that researchers in labs (and similar formal science jobs) are the most important benefit of large populations? Or do you mean it as pars pro toto, with science as an example of many things that benefit from the economies of scale and more broken-down specialization?
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:40 pm UTC

Only in the broadest economic sense. Anyone that develops anything that improves the economy. Could be a musician that develops a more pleasing form of music. Could be an engineer that develops a slightly better engine. Could be a game designer that invents a more fun game (seriously, games prior to the 20th century sucked; no wonder everyone drank so much). Could be the businessman that more accurately figures out what people want. Could be the operations researcher who determines a more efficient means of production/distribution. It doesn't have to be the guy in the white labcoat and the billion-dollar super-collider.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby addams » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:48 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:CU, when you talk about scientists, do you mean that literally? As in, you think that researchers in labs (and similar formal science jobs) are the most important benefit of large populations? Or do you mean it as pars pro toto, with science as an example of many things that benefit from the economies of scale and more broken-down specialization?


Right. The wisest mystic or king and the best scientist all need running water and electricity. (Sure; Non mystics think that mystics live on air alone. But; It is not true.)

If, we work together, then, there may be enough of us.
If, we are going to fight, then, there may be too many of us.

That up there is true. Believe it or not.

Spoiler:
All Humans are scientists.
All Humans are artists.
Not all Humans are good scientists.
Not all Humans are good artists.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby Zamfir » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:50 pm UTC

But only development of knowledge and similar intangibles? You're not primarily thinking about benefits from scale (like mass production), or increased specialization (like, for example, financial experts in one esoteric field)?

That matters a lot if we want to track whether we are preparing ourselves well for the future. Is more people in finance necessarily a bad thing? You could also view it as increased effort to direct investment decisions. If someone stops thinking about loans, and instead starts thinking about the inner physics of distant stellar objects, are we not wasting precious talent on frivolities?
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby addams » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:00 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:But only development of knowledge and similar intangibles? You're not primarily thinking about benefits from scale (like mass production), or increased specialization (like, for example, financial experts in one esoteric field)?

That matters a lot if we want to track whether we are preparing ourselves well for the future. Is more people in finance necessarily a bad thing? You could also view it as increased effort to direct investment decisions. If someone stops thinking about loans, and instead starts thinking about the inner physics of distant stellar objects, are we not wasting precious talent on frivolities?


There: Frivolities.

A person that has a passion for the stars will not be a happy camper, if, loans and international bond markets are the only choice for paying the bills.

It is frivolous. Yes. The way churches, libraries and courthouses are.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:13 pm UTC

Oh you mean my comment about how Finance steals from the other sciences?

(Not sure if I said this earlier).

No, Finance isn't itself terrible, it's just that there are a lot of people in Finance that really don't do much to benefit society.

You have all sorts of speculators, and a large part of their income comes from the idiots who think they are going to make a fortune speculating on stocks, or more importantly, from criminals who try to rig the stock market. Remember how a rogue trader costs UBS (or whatever) $2B in losses? A few speculators got that $2B. If a commodity is accurately priced the market will respond by making more of the commodities that are valuable and less of the commodities that are less so. Accurately pricing the bonds helps the well-run companies finance and the poorly-run ones stagnate/collapse. When a company wants to expand or determine how to finance itself, a specialist can facilitate things. And these are all good things that specialists in Finance do.

But with stocks, the market does not respond by moving capital into good companies and away from bad ones. You can't invest in stocks. Once the company completes the IPO, it will virtually never raise capital again through the stock market, and yet the stock market is huge in terms of trading. All the stock price is supposed to do is measure the value of the company's dividend streams. Yet, you have all these mutual funds and hedge funds which, for the most part, don't even provide a service for their customers and don't move capital to the companies that can use it most efficiently. One of the more shocking things about the Madoff scandal, was that he was also scamming mutual funds. People were putting money into mutual funds, and then the mutual funds were giving it to someone else to manage and still taking a haircut from it!
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby morriswalters » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:26 pm UTC

Science is unlimited?
As a disclaimer anything I say is my opinion and should not to be confused with fact.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby Zamfir » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:28 pm UTC

Then again, if shift those same people to science, they're not magically going to turn efficient and honest. There's enough people in science who chase the latest fads, game the publication indices, exploit their grad students (an still get the haircut department chair, data-mine for hypotheses, hide negative results until something passes the 95% confidence boundary, even falsify data. It's just that in science, we're more accepting to results that turn out wrong, or have no impact for decades. So frauds and idiots can live out their careers
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:32 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Science is unlimited?


I mean, it's non-rivalrous in economic terms. If someone discovers levers, me learning about levers does not prevent you from learning about levers. So whether there are 10 people or 10 billion people, the guy discovering the lever helps every single person.

Zamfir wrote:Then again, if shift those same people to science, they're not magically going to turn efficient and honest. There's enough people in science who chase the latest fads, game the publication indices, exploit their grad students (an still get the haircut department chair, data-mine for hypotheses, hide negative results until something passes the 95% confidence boundary, even falsify data. It's just that in science, we're more accepting to results that turn out wrong, or have no impact for decades. So frauds and idiots can live out their careers


Yeah, that's true. Bad science is almost reason enough to bring back water-dunking and other things from the Salem Witch Trials. Almost. At least when real scientists like Francis Galton discover something they don't like, they admit that they were wrong. Oh, they might give it a nasty name, like "Reversion to Mediocrity"*, but knowing where you are wrong is how science advances, and discovering that your basic understanding is wrong is probably the most important part of the scientific process.

I do have to wonder what kind of society actually spends time/capital inventing torture devices. Other than the ancient Greeks, but that's understandable given their culture**.

*AKA "Regression to the Mean". Originally it was done on son's height compared to father's height. Galton wanted to find evidence for Eugenics (he created the term, actually), but discovered that given the father's height the son was on average half-way between his father and the population mean. Not what Galton wanted to see, though he probably should've include the mother in there as well. But this was before genetics was understood.

*Their gods were a bunch of pricks that had no qualms about raping your wife and then killing you for doing anything about it. Oh, and Pandora's Box, that contained all the greatest evils and were released? You know why Hope was at the bottom? Because Hope is the worst evil of all. That's why it was at the bottom of the box.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby Ghostbear » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:42 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:It's just that in science, we're more accepting to results that turn out wrong, or have no impact for decades.

Isn't it more that through science, we have a way (and general culture) of proving those results to be fictitious?
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby Dark567 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:07 pm UTC

Ghostbear wrote:
Zamfir wrote:It's just that in science, we're more accepting to results that turn out wrong, or have no impact for decades.

Isn't it more that through science, we have a way (and general culture) of proving those results to be fictitious?
We do in finance too, its called going bankrupt. And it tends to happen a lot faster in finance then proving the result fictitious in science.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby Zamfir » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:19 pm UTC

Exactly. There's financial crisis because collapsing investments triggered other collapses of shaky investments, all the way until it started to hurt everything at all. Looks spectacular, is a great problem, and people were paid way to much to build that tower of cards. But they didn't necessarily screw up way above normal, it just happened fast.

Then again, perhaps they really did screw up beyond normal. In most fields, and science very much, people are encouraged to consider their contribution to the whole as intrinsic reward,a nd as result you attract people who at least try to serve the system as a whole. Finance did start to concentrate on a serve-yourself mentality, and attracting the people who do well in such an environment. That might have contributed to a reduced resistance to problematic situations. But that's just speculation from my side.

EDIT: to get back OT: in science, and finance, and lots of other affairs with long timescales involved, it's hard to know when your really doing well. It;s completely possible to believe your contributing useful work, that all your colleagues believe the same, that may others trust you and pay you to keep up the work. And in the long run your work turns to be mostly in vain.

That makes me skeptical about just extrpolating progress to the future, on timescales of multiple generations. Whether it's economic growth or useful scientific results, there is no guarantee that it will keep delivering. There might well be a wall of diminishing returns, where enormous effort and fine-tuning becomes required for modest advances.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby Dark567 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:34 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Exactly. There's financial crisis because collapsing investments triggered other collapses of shaky investments, all the way until it started to hurt everything at all. Looks spectacular, is a great problem, and people were paid way to much to build that tower of cards. But they didn't necessarily screw up way above normal, it just happened fast.
Sometime though its not the collapse of shaky investments, but real ones. I still maintain that the current crises is some of both. As an example, lets say a company's largest plant or headquarters gets destroyed by a unexpected natural disaster. Its clear that investing into it before the disaster wasn't shaky, but I still might lose just as much as a shaky investment.


Zamfir wrote:That makes me skeptical about just extrpolating progress to the future, on timescales of multiple generations. Whether it's economic growth or useful scientific results, there is no guarantee that it will keep delivering. There might well be a wall of diminishing returns, where enormous effort and fine-tuning becomes required for modest advances.
Generally unless data presents itself to correct the trend, I am going to continue believing in the trend. That said, there are energy limitations on how far we can produce growth so I will concede that.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby Jonesthe Spy » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:04 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:As for bizarro logic, fewer criminals means less crime, but the crime rate is the same. You are just as safe whether you live in a city of 1M people with 1000 murders/year as you are in a town of 1k people with 1 murder/year.


I think you're skipping over a huge amount of cause and effect here. A huge amount of crime is caused by poverty. In a society where there is less competition for scarce resources, there will be less crime. And if you look at crime statistics, you'll see that most small towns that lack the huge wealth gaps you see in our cities have far far lower crime rates per capita, not simply less crime in proportion to less population.

The thing about science, is that science is unlimited. If I, say, discover light bulbs, everyone gets light bulbs. 1 discovery for 1k people is not the same as 10 discoveries for 10k people.


Um, you may not have noticed this, but lightbulbs were invented more than a century ago and a rather large chunk of the world's population has no light bulbs or even electricity. There are in fact plenty of scientific discoveries that only benefit a tiny few - think about how few people actually have access to the most advanced medical treatments out there, and the main reason for that is lack of wealth. Just sayin'.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby Dark567 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:13 pm UTC

Jonesthe Spy wrote:I think you're skipping over a huge amount of cause and effect here. A huge amount of crime is caused by poverty. In a society where there is less competition for scarce resources, there will be less crime. And if you look at crime statistics, you'll see that most small towns that lack the huge wealth gaps you see in our cities have far far lower crime rates per capita, not simply less crime in proportion to less population.
Over the past few years during this economic crisis, when poverty has increased, crime has continued to fall. Hell during the last 30 years as inequality has been growing, crime has been decreasing. There is more going on here then Poverty/inequality->Crime.
http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/06/08/ ... e-to-fall/
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24crime.html?_r=1

Jonesthe Spy wrote:Um, you may not have noticed this, but lightbulbs were invented more than a century ago and a rather large chunk of the world's population has no light bulbs or even electricity. There are in fact plenty of scientific discoveries that only benefit a tiny few - think about how few people actually have access to the most advanced medical treatments out there, and the main reason for that is lack of wealth. Just sayin'.
Your right but it's lack of wealth. But its not like we could fix the massive inequalities between countries by simple redistribution. We need a massive increase in production for that to happen, the kind we are currently seeing in China and India.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:20 pm UTC

Jonesthe Spy wrote:I think you're skipping over a huge amount of cause and effect here. A huge amount of crime is caused by poverty. In a society where there is less competition for scarce resources, there will be less crime. And if you look at crime statistics, you'll see that most small towns that lack the huge wealth gaps you see in our cities have far far lower crime rates per capita, not simply less crime in proportion to less population.

Your causation doesn't make sense to me. If crime is caused by poor people wanting food and iPods, then how will reducing the number of food and iPod producers result in food and iPods for everyone? Population reduction means a reduction in producers, which means fewer resources.

If our current production and consumption rates are X and Y, halving population will reduce production and consumption to X/2 and Y/2. Production will not maintain with half the people farming the land and slaving away at Apple sweatshops. If you want to get to Production X and Consumption Y/2, the best way is to reduce consumption through efficiency and waste reduction.

The idea that population increase causes an increase in crime rate is a weak correlation perpetuated by an eloquent economist which pales in comparison to the correlation between crime and lead paint. I don't see any reason to assume that a general reduction in population would have any effect on crime rates.
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Re: Overpopulation Rhetoric is Alarmist and Counterproductiv

Postby JudeMorrigan » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:37 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Certainly developed nations birthrates have dropped, but China's and India's haven't yet.

Erm, could I get a citation on that? If you go here:

http://esa.un.org/unpd/wpp/unpp/panel_indicators.htm

and check the fertility rate of China and India, it shows them both decreasing. China's is well under 2.0 at this point, although that presumably is heavily influenced by their One Child policy.
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