Georgia Lawmaker Compares Women to Cattle

[ShortChelsea]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/09/georgia-lawmaker-compares-women-to-cows-and-pigs/

Spoiler:

In a new twist on the personhood debate, Georgia State Representative Terry England has taken the stance that while fetuses may be people, the women carrying them are more like cattle.

This seemingly absurd comparison came to light on Tuesday, when ThinkProgress.org released a video of England's speech before the Georgia House of Representatives, which passed a bill last week that would make abortions after the gestational age of 20 weeks illegal--even if the fetus is no longer viable.

When explaining his reasoning for why a woman should be forced to carry a stillborn fetus, Terry England called upon his experience as a farmer, remembering the pain he felt when his cows would deliver stillborn calves.

"Life gives us many experiences...I've had the experience of delivering calves, dead and alive. Delivering pigs, dead or alive. It breaks our hearts to see those animals not make it," ThinkProgress quoted him as saying.

England made no comment on the emotional and psychological effects on a woman forced to carry a failed pregnancy to term.

As if the heartbreak of the farmers was not enough, England also used the words of a cockfighter to make his case.

"He said, 'Mr. Terry, I want to tell you something. You tell those folks down there when they quit killing babies, they can have every chicken I've got'," England quoted.

His arguments were successful, as Georgia House Bill 954 passed 102-65, according to Raw Story. In Georgia, it seems, the personhood ranking goes like this: stillborn fetuses, farmers, cows, pigs, chickens, and finally living, breathing, feeling women.

I'm not good at debating, but does saying that cows and pigs can give birth to stillborns means that human women should give birth to stillborns, too, make a good argument?

[philsov]

This has to be some sort of disturbing out of context quote.

*reads article, watches video*

And... faith in humanity is down a notch.

In a debate over Georgia House Bill 954, which would ban abortions after 20 weeks even if the baby is not expected to live, England recalled the time he had spent with livestock.

“Life gives us many experiences,” he explained. “I’ve had the experience of delivering calves, dead and alive — delivering pigs, dead and alive. … It breaks our hearts to see those animals not make it.”

If giving birth to stillborns is heartbreaking, then why should women be forced to do so? This is a pro-abortion argument.

[Роберт]

Yeah, I both don't get the argument he's trying to make, and don't think the "Gee willakers he just said women are cows" reaction makes sense either.

[Dauric]

Well, Y'know, if he could outlaw abortions that guy with the fighting-chickens would stop having cockfights, 'cause clearly anything is justified to stop people from training chickens to fight...

... Yeah, snark aside I'm with Philosov on this one. The argument is a reason to intervene when a woman is holding a corpse in her body, not to "let nature take it's course" 'cause Mother Nature's a cold-hearted bitch.

That and yeah, The fact that the bill passed even with that rationale brings me another notch closer to "Everybody Dies! It's the only answer!"

... Maybe that explains the ending of ME3...

[Radical_Initiator]

... Maybe that explains the ending of ME3...

Spoiler:

YOU SHUT YOUR GODDAMN MOUTH RIGHT NOW, OR ZEUS HELP ME, I WILL SHUT IT PERMANENTLY.

[Iulus Cofield]

Yeah, I both don't get the argument he's trying to make, and don't think the "Gee willakers he just said women are cows" reaction makes sense either.

I think the argument is that stillbirth is a natural phenomenon and as a natural phenomenon shouldn't be stopped by menacing, god-replacing science. I think. I'm not inclined to try and contact this person and find out if he also against using antibiotics on livestock or medicine in general. Of course, if he is, it probably just represents a lack of consistency in his thought processes.

[ahammel]

I read it more like "I'm qualified to make legislation requiring women to experience stillbirth because I know about the emotional consequences because it happened to my cows."

Which is still grossly instulting and stupid, of course.

[Iulus Cofield]

I don't think there's an interpretation that can't be summarized as grossly insulting and stupid.

[Dauric]

Yeah, I both don't get the argument he's trying to make, and don't think the "Gee willakers he just said women are cows" reaction makes sense either.

I think the argument is that stillbirth is a natural phenomenon and as a natural phenomenon shouldn't be stopped by menacing, god-replacing science. I think. I'm not inclined to try and contact this person and find out if he also against using antibiotics on livestock or medicine in general. Of course, if he is, it probably just represents a lack of consistency in his thought processes.

Agreed, with enough reading between the lines it comes off as: "Well I helped deliver a stillbirthed calf, it made me sad, but it's still a life experience and life experiences are natural and build character by golly." since helping deliver stillborn livestock is so obviously equivalent to actually carrying around a dead baby in one's own body...

'Course he's a man, and men know what's best for them uppity womenfolk, they need more fundamentally depressing life experiences, along with potentially physically harmful life experiences to keep 'em from being uppity.

I don't think there's an interpretation that can't be summarized as grossly insulting and stupid.

^ This.

[Роберт]

Agreed, with enough reading between the lines it comes off as: "Well I helped deliver a stillbirthed calf, it made me sad, but it's still a life experience and life experiences are natural and build character by golly."

Maybe I'm just a little thick, but I still don't see how this could be an argument for anything to do with abortion laws, even with your interpretation.

[Dauric]

Agreed, with enough reading between the lines it comes off as: "Well I helped deliver a stillbirthed calf, it made me sad, but it's still a life experience and life experiences are natural and build character by golly."

Maybe I'm just a little thick, but I still don't see how this could be an argument for anything to do with abortion laws, even with your interpretation.

That women facing an unsuccessful pregnancy should be glad for the life experience and all the character that it builds for them, they should be so glad for it in fact that we shouldn't give them the autonomy to do anything about it.

Again, Good-Ol-Boy determining that he's got a handle on what's best for everyone, even when the situation he's got a handle on isn't one he has to deal with personally.

[Radical_Initiator]

I tend to read a bit of religiosity into it, although it's not explicitly there. It just seems like the sort of thing where someone will suggest "Well, I've delivered stillborn calves, and though it made me really sad, it's GAWD'S WILL, and it is just wrong for you to interfere with GAWD'S PLAN!" It just smacks of the good-ol-boy reliance on religion when an issue requires a modicum of common sense (entirely beyond the reach of said lawmaker, naturally). Of course, it's not against God's Plan to refill that Viagra prescription, right?

No, Iulus was definitely right. There's nothing here that can be misconstrued as possibly being non-insulting or vaguely non-stupid.

[lutzj]

No, Iulus was definitely right. There's nothing here that can be misconstrued as possibly being non-insulting or vaguely non-stupid.

It doesn't even stand up to the standard pro-life arguments about "sanctity of life" and "giving fetuses a chance." It's an incredibly stupid law.

[Роберт]

I tend to read a bit of religiosity into it, although it's not explicitly there. It just seems like the sort of thing where someone will suggest "Well, I've delivered stillborn calves, and though it made me really sad, it's Odin's WILL, and it is just wrong for you to interfere with Odin's PLAN!"

Okay, I can see that reading.

[sourmìlk]

I don't even get why a person would want to force women to carry stillborn babies. I thought the whole point of the pro-life argument was the fetuses constitute human life and should be treated as such. If the fetus is already dead, then why would you ban abortions? Well, I guess if you hold the view that women should be punished for sex, it makes sense.

[sardia]

I don't even get why a person would want to force women to carry stillborn babies. I thought the whole point of the pro-life argument was the fetuses constitute human life and should be treated as such. If the fetus is already dead, then why would you ban abortions? Well, I guess if you hold the view that women should be punished for sex, it makes sense.

It could be more nuanced than that, no idea here. But a plausible explanation is either practical: a woman could do shit to herself to induce a stillborn in order to get an abortion.
Or it could be due to extrapolation of principle: If we say no abortions to preserve life, no abortions are allowed, ever. Many legal codes have an intent which also leads to unintended consequences. Like the British colonial law intended to control rats, they paid for dead rats by the pound. The unintended thing was people started to breed rats.

[Proginoskes]

I don't even get why a person would want to force women to carry stillborn babies. I thought the whole point of the pro-life argument was the fetuses constitute human life and should be treated as such. If the fetus is already dead, then why would you ban abortions? Well, I guess if you hold the view that women should be punished for sex, it makes sense.

If life begins at conception, then a stillbirth is at least manslaughter. If it's not accidental, it's counted as murder.

I don't get it, either.

But remember, Republicans want to take care of a fetus/embryo/baby until it's born; then it's on its own.

[Obby]

If life begins at conception, then a stillbirth is at least manslaughter. If it's not accidental, it's counted as murder.

I don't get it, either.

But remember, Republicans want to take care of a fetus/embryo/baby until it's born; then it's on its own.

I wonder how small those bootstraps would have to be...

[Chen]

That women facing an unsuccessful pregnancy should be glad for the life experience and all the character that it builds for them, they should be so glad for it in fact that we shouldn't give them the autonomy to do anything about it.

Again, Good-Ol-Boy determining that he's got a handle on what's best for everyone, even when the situation he's got a handle on isn't one he has to deal with personally.

Is there anything more in the actual video besides that quote in the first post? Because its pretty damn convoluted to get that from what he said. The only point he made in that statement did seem to be a point in FAVOR of abortion. You have to seriously try and twist it to get that he was saying that it was a GOOD thing that he felt bad for delivering live and dead animals.

Now the other possibility is that everyone had already made their decision on the vote and they just weren't listening to him anyway. Which is probably the way it went. I can't imagine the lawmakers in Georgia didn't already have pretty strong opinions on the matter.

[Nylonathatep]

In before the "In Soviet Russia..." Jokes


*hides*

Spoiler:

Kidding, Kidding

[Kulantan]

Chen, here is his full statement. He was arguing against abortion. His point is not that it is good to deliver animals/babies alive or dead, merely that it is natural/right to do so. He was using the animals stillbirths to try an convince people having made these decisions for farm animals qualifies him to make this decision for the women of Georgia.

[ShortChelsea]

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/03/12/442637/georgia-rep-compares-women-to-animals/?mobile=nc

Link to an article with the video.

Edit: Ninja'd with a better link.

[Chen]

Sorry I was asking for the actual quote he said because I couldn't watch the video here at work. I was only trying to see if the original article missed something because the quotes it attributed to him there made only very vague points (if that). If you're seeing he mentions something about it being "natural" or "right" then at least it puts his argument into context. He's still an idiot, but at least he wouldn't be an idiot who is making a bad comparison AND inadvertently supporting the opposite of the point he was trying to make (though I suppose if the people who oppose abortion are that idiotic, it is an advantage...)

[Diadem]

Chen, here is his full statement. He was arguing against abortion. His point is not that it is good to deliver animals/babies alive or dead, merely that it is natural/right to do so. He was using the animals stillbirths to try an convince people having made these decisions for farm animals qualifies him to make this decision for the women of Georgia.

That is... He can't even form 2 consecutive coherent sentences. How did that guy become a state representative?

Well I do know at least one way in which women are like cattle. Both are, on average, smarter than this guy!

[philsov]

Chen, here is his full statement. He was arguing against abortion. His point is not that it is good to deliver animals/babies alive or dead, merely that it is natural/right to do so. He was using the animals stillbirths to try an convince people having made these decisions for farm animals qualifies him to make this decision for the women of Georgia.

Well getting a real doctor who's delivered human stillborns or the parents of a stillborn to testify would be silly. Surely personal experience with a pig is more relevant than external opinion.

[JBJ]

That is... He can't even form 2 consecutive coherent sentences. How did that guy become a state representative?

He ran unopposed.

[Garm]

A large portion of the political process is showing up. If you show up and do the work then eventually you'll get picked for something. If your district is too far to the right or the left, you might very well run unopposed like this joker. The state parties only have so much money and spreading it too thin will hamper their ability to gain seats in more winnable races.

[iChef]

This isn't a case of the big bad MEN telling the poor defenseless women what to do. Believe it or not many women who get pregnant do so by a man. Every once in a while one of these men will stick around with this women for reasons science hasn't discovered yet. To this rare breed of non-evil man this law is devastating to go through watching their partner be abused by the government.

I'm not saying that it isn't more harmful to the woman, but this bill isn't only harmful to them. The law in question is harmful to women, men and the rest of their families and all of these people should stand up against this slew of unfair and offensive abortion policies that have sprung up lately. this is still very much a women's health centered issue, but men who are indirectly affected by these laws need to be included in fighting against them. It would be in everyone's best interest to show how really isolated and crazy this guy's opinions are and that the sane portion of America isn't going to take this crap anymore.

[moiraemachy]

I don't even get why a person would want to force women to carry stillborn babies. I thought the whole point of the pro-life argument was the fetuses constitute human life and should be treated as such. If the fetus is already dead, then why would you ban abortions?

While I do believe it's basically a matter of "don't mess with the natural order of things", many people who oppose abortion also oppose the way doctors determine when the human life ends, and wouldn't be okay with letting them decide when a fetus doesn't deserve protection.

[WithinThisMind]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/09/georgia-lawmaker-compares-women-to-cows-and-pigs/?

In addition to being a raving numbskull, he is also a crappy rancher. There is a reason birthing season is the busiest time of year for livestock veterinarians. No rancher in their right mind would allow a female cow or pig to continue to carry a dead fetus as their lives/fertility are way too valuable. Ditto if they discover the fetus is malformed in some way, or in situations like a very small female carrying multiple young or accidentally bred too young. Hell, it's not that unusual to abort if a breeding female is accidentally mated to the wrong male because it is a waste of resources to allow her to carry to term.

[lutzj]

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/09/georgia-lawmaker-compares-women-to-cows-and-pigs/?

In addition to being a raving numbskull, he is also a crappy rancher. There is a reason birthing season is the busiest time of year for livestock veterinarians. No rancher in their right mind would allow a female cow or pig to continue to carry a dead fetus as their lives/fertility are way too valuable.

We need an even more conservative Georgian to go argue that "You've got your livestock inferences all wrong! We should abort ALL stillborn fetuses, so those women can have more babies! It's gawd's way!"

[WithinThisMind]

We need an even more conservative Georgian to go argue that "You've got your livestock inferences all wrong! We should abort ALL stillborn fetuses, so those women can have more babies! It's gawd's way!"

I know a conservative Georgian who recently bought some psuedo-science claptrap that would supposedly make his hens lay in a 90%f/10%m ratio rather than the usual 50%f/50%m ratio because 'all those damn male babies are a waste of incubator space and I just end up throwing them to the dogs anyway'.

Would that help?

I mean, if we want to keep this 'metaphor' going, the fact that dairy ranchers would more or less kill for a way ensure only female fertilized ova implant so they can try again during the breeding season to maximize their resources would be a fitting one, don't you think?

[Xeio]

Problem being that the average lawmaker has no philosophical qualms. At all. They can be as hypocritical as they want and still be elected*.

*Though I'll admit, the primaries are sure as hell putting that to the test.

And of course, the easy out. "But they're not human".

[WithinThisMind]

And of course, the easy out. "But they're not human".

I'm trying to work out a definition of 'human' in which these lawmakers qualify and the dandruff I'm currently experiencing does not.

[folkhero]

I mean, if we want to keep this 'metaphor' going, the fact that dairy ranchers would more or less kill for a way ensure only female fertilized ova implant so they can try again during the breeding season to maximize their resources would be a fitting one, don't you think?

Perhaps a conservative southern lawmaker could propose a law allowing young male humans to be treated like veal. Everyone knows that babies are tender and delicious, and it's not like we need one male for every female. With proper breeding techniques and a ratio of, say, ten females to each male I would guess we could maintain current gross national product.

[sourmìlk]

Perhaps a conservative southern lawmaker could propose a law allowing young male humans to be treated like veal. Everyone knows that babies are tender and delicious, and it's not like we need one male for every female.

This isn't that unique an idea.

[Dauric]

And of course, the easy out. "But they're not human".

I'm trying to work out a definition of 'human' in which these lawmakers do not qualify and the dandruff I'm currently experiencing does.

Not sure if I'd call this "fix'd" or not, but it amuses me so I share...

[ShortChelsea]

Update: The bill passed in the house, with revisions.
http://onlineathens.com/local-news/2012-03-31/abortion-bill-caps-busy-session-georgia-legislature

Spoiler:

State Rep. Doug McKillip, R-Athens, capped off a busy and sometimes contentious legislative session late Thursday by bringing up what may have been the most controversial bill of the year.

As the clock approached midnight, McKillip shepherded through a revised version of his bill limiting abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy rather than the current 26 weeks, legislation that upset female Democratic lawmakers so much they protested by wrapping themselves in police tape.

The bill appeared dead earlier in the week after the Senate passed a watered-down version that House leaders rejected, but Republicans in both chambers came to an agreement.

“We just worked back and forth until we got to a point where we had a rock-solid late-term abortion prohibition,” McKillip said.

He and Sen. Bill Cowsert, R-Athens, both served on a six-person conference committee that reached the agreement. The Senate had already approved a version of the bill with two changes. One protected doctors from civil lawsuits out of fear that malpractice insurance rates for obstetricians and gynecologists would skyrocket. Another allowed abortions after 20 weeks for “medically futile” pregnancies, when the unborn child has a major defect or genetic disorder that wouldn’t allow it to survive outside the womb.

“We heard a lot of feedback from women who’d been in that type of situation,” Cowsert said.

The House version would have forced women whose babies were certain to die shortly after birth to carry them to full term. That struck home for Sen. Frank Ginn, R-Danielsville, whose young son died in an accident two years ago. A parent faced with that choice wouldn’t feel any less pain either way, he said.

“For me, this was the toughest vote I’ve ever had to cast,” Ginn said Tuesday. “I don’t know that there’s a good answer for that.”

The eventual compromise hewed closer to the Senate version, keeping the exception for medically futile pregnancies but adding a definition provided by the anti-abortion group National Right to Life. The language will prevent “abortions of convenience” after 20 weeks, such as if a woman wanted to abort a fetus with Down’s Syndrome, McKillip said.

“We tightened up our definition of ‘medically futile’ to make certain it was really cases where the baby would be born and pass away within minutes,” he said.

Republicans who had supported the amendedments, including Ginn and Cowsert, voted for the revised bill late Thursday. It passed the House overwhelmingly as well.

“We will save a thousand babies, when this bill is adopted, every year,” McKillip said from the well, urging colleagues to approve it.

Georgia’s WIN List, a group that works to elect Democratic women, called the bill part of a GOP gender war.

“Last night was a setback for Georgia women and a failure of our government, and it proves that we have a lot of work to do,” the group said in a news release.

For better or worse, lawmakers got a lot done in 2012. In addition to the abortion bill, other high-profile legislation included tax reform, criminal justice reform, drug tests for welfare recipients and a $19 billion budget that provides $52 million for a new University of Georgia veterinary teaching hospital.

“I think we had an extremely good session for Georgia and Georgians,” Rep. Terry England, R-Auburn, said.

Rep. Keith Heard, D-Athens, had a different take. Business was rushed, the tone was partisan and procedural rules ignored, he said. Heard called Sine Die — the session’s lengthy last day — the worst in his 20 years at the Capitol.

“It’s election-year politics,” he said. “This is par for the course for my colleagues on the other side of the aisle.”

A bill requiring welfare recipients to pass drug tests particularly rankled Heard, who said it is unfair and doesn’t provide for treatment. Supporters said the bill will stop taxpayers’ money from going to drugs.

“If you’re going to do Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, TANF recipients, why don’t you do HOPE Scholarship recipients?” Heard said. “Why don’t you do these contractors who get multi-million dollar contracts from the state? I could go on and on.”

Lawmakers on both sides praised the criminal justice reform package passed earlier in the week. Rather than serve time in jail, many nonviolent criminals will be sentenced to treatment and probation, often in special DUI, drug and mental health courts. Such courts have successfully reduced recidivism in Clarke County and elsewhere around the state.

The bill is expected to save taxpayers about $250 million when fully implemented because fewer people will be locked up behind bars, but it only includes about $10 million to set up new courts this year.

Two controversial bills — one that would ban protests outside private residences and another to ban illegal immigrants from attending public colleges — died on the session’s last day.

Unions, Occupy Wall Street and tea party groups banded together to fight the protest bill. McKillip said he opposed it because it violates constitutional rights to free speech and assembly.

Georgia law already bars illegal immigrants from competitive universities where they might take the place of a legal resident and requires them to pay out-of-state tuition even if they went to high school in Georgia. A proposal to bar illegal immigrants from public colleges altogether never came up for a vote because legislators said they addressed the issue with a strict immigration law last year.

[Falling]

Update: The bill passed in the house, with revisions.

Outlawing late-term abortions and welfare drug testing?

Fuck you, Georgia.

[Роберт]

Update: The bill passed in the house, with revisions.

Outlawing late-term abortions and welfare drug testing?

Fuck you, Georgia.

I had to read the spoiler to understand what you meant.

Here's an example of a less ambiguous way to phrase it:
"Welfare drug testing and outlawing late-term abortions?"