Mass Effect 3 (Seriously, Use Spoilers People!)

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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby omgryebread » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:20 am UTC

The biggest problem I had with the ending was that it just went entirely in the opposite direction of the storytelling themes of the game. The best stories are not a listing of events that have a causal relationship, but they have a thread. The Old Man and the Sea wasn't just a story about a dude fishing. The whole Mass Effect series was about hope in the face of immeasurable odds, and Shepard's role as a catalyst for that hope, either in a "shoot everything, WIN" kind of way, or a "unite the galaxy!" way. Except hey, it turns out you learn in the last game that Shepard isn't a catalyst at all, at least not the important one.
Spoiler:
Literally. They explicitly took the role from her and gave it to an object the player has no attachment to.



If you really hate the multiplayer thing and are on PC, download this. Run it, open up Coalesced.bin (in BIOGame/CookedPCConsole). Then expand bioui.ini, sfxgame, and sfxgawassetshandler. Click on allassets. You'll be given a list of assets. The basic type is GAWAssetType_Military. For those you'll see a section that says "StartingStrenth=" Double the number after it.

For AssetType_Modifier, the starting strength will be 0, and you need to look for another part that says "(TargetID=#,Value=#)" and you want to double the value. (If you want to be fair, make sure you double the negative from negative modifiers too!)

For AssetType_Intel, AssetType_Artifact, and AssetType_Salvage, the startingstrength will be 0, 10000, or 15000. Ignore those! The latter two seem to be just a way for the game to keep track of unfinished Galaxy at War quests. You'll find the actual bonuses from those quests later in the list. Intel are the things that let you get upgrades at Glyph's console. Ignore the External Assets as well, those are multiplayer and the other ways to increase the %.

Doubling all the numbers will give you the same effect as playing multiplayer to fill up the gauge.

You can change a lot of things, including seriously altering game balance in Coalesced. Therefore, I think Bioware would not look kindly on you using an altered file to play multiplayer. If you intend to play MP, use the original file.

I don't know if there's an equivalent thing to do for consoles, sorry console players.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:50 am UTC

Ghostbear wrote:
Spoiler:
the post credits scene shows that regardless of which choice you make, everything does end up the same. Humanity attempts to rebuild itself on that crashed planet, with none of the aliens surviving (you'd think there'd be some asari at least through Liari, since they don't need other members of their race to maintain genetic diversity), without the synthesis having any chance to impact their life.
Spoiler:
Huh. Liara was on the new planet in my ending.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Ghostbear » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:53 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Spoiler:
Huh. Liara was on the new planet in my ending.

Spoiler:
She was for mine as well. I meant the post credit scene- there's no reason to believe that the asari survived through Liari on that planet in any form, even though their form of reproduction would logically pre-dispose them to being the dominant species, if anything.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:55 am UTC

Oh, my mistake then.
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Yakk wrote:The question the thought experiment I posted is aimed at answering: When falling in a black hole, do you see the entire universe's future history train-car into your ass, or not?
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby omgryebread » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:56 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Ghostbear wrote:
Spoiler:
the post credits scene shows that regardless of which choice you make, everything does end up the same. Humanity attempts to rebuild itself on that crashed planet, with none of the aliens surviving (you'd think there'd be some asari at least through Liari, since they don't need other members of their race to maintain genetic diversity), without the synthesis having any chance to impact their life.
Spoiler:
Huh. Liara was on the new planet in my ending.
Spoiler:
He means, I believe, the stargazer scene with Buzz Aldrin and the little kid. I don't see how that scene explicitly says that there aren't aliens, though. In fact, I took the "very soon" and the mention of other life with the heavy implication the child would see them as acknowledging that space travel and FTL travel are still possible.


Ninja'd, though I still think I have a point in there.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Ghostbear » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:01 am UTC

omgryebread wrote:
Spoiler:
He means, I believe, the stargazer scene with Buzz Aldrin and the little kid. I don't see how that scene explicitly says that there aren't aliens, though. In fact, I took the "very soon" and the mention of other life with the heavy implication the child would see them as acknowledging that space travel and FTL travel are still possible.

Ninja'd, though I still think I have a point in there.

Spoiler:
Very possible, but I was speaking about that planet itself. If any asari do live, it's elsewhere in the galaxy.

Apparently what I said has caused a lot of confusion, sorry all.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Lucrece » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:44 am UTC

What are your thoughts on the reaction to the game’s endings?[/b][/i]I didn’t want the game to be forgettable, and even right down to the sort of polarizing reaction that the ends have had with people–debating what the endings mean and what’s going to happen next, and what situation are the characters left in. That to me is part of what’s exciting about this story. There has always been a little bit of mystery there and a little bit of interpretation, and it’s a story that people can talk about after the fact


- Casey Hudson, Producer

I love the hem and hawing, trying to pretend like there's no actual crushing consensus that the ends are obnoxious to most people. I don't think you want a game to be memorable through how many people it pissed off.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Gelsamel » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:41 am UTC

What pisses me off the most about that comment is how they try to say that the endings are supposed to have some mystery or interpretation in them...
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Koa » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:46 am UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:Right, so I just replayed the ending. It's much less painful the second time around and I caught a few things I missed last night. I still agree with almost everything Ghostbear said above but I feel like a few adjustments in the ways one views the series can make the ending much more palatable:
Spoiler:
First, the Reapers. They are not enormously powerful eldritch horror badasses; they are boastful underlings that lie to Shepard to make themselves seem more important. This is especially true of Sovereign as almost everything he says in ME1 is shown to be false in the final few minutes.

Second, the omnipotent god-child-AI is actually the relay network ("The Citadel is part of me"). Yes, it clearly contradicts everything that has been established in the series so far including everything from ME3 but it is actually a kind of cool idea. So the Reapers didn't build it (Sovereign lied) and they don't control it (Sovereign was delusional?) and it can achieve its meaningless goals much more elegantly but... come on, the relay network was the villain all along! It's this incredibly passive yet insanely malicious AI that has been under our noses the whole time. Every time you took a relay jump, the relay network god took a piece of your soul! (Ok, that last part wasn't mentioned in the conversation).

Third, not all endings have the same cut scene. Yes, they all have nearly identical variations of the same cut scene but there are minor differences. For example, in synthesis Joker, EDI and Ashley leave the Normandy but in control-the-Reapers Joker, Liara and Jarvin leave the Normandy. Is there some significance there? Well, cyborg-Joker and Seven-of-nine were supposed to repopulate the planet (kind of difficult when EDI's body has no way or need to procreate) but the second group? No idea. Sure, the Normandy is still trying to outrun the perfectly harmless Reaper controlling wave that... makes the ship explode and crash land. Wait, what? Just a few seconds ago the same wave was shown hitting infantry and tanks and nothing bad happened to them. Is the Normandy a Reaper? But the Reapers weren't damaged by it either so... huh?

Fourth, synthesis, the ending I took last night, is utter shit. This whole organics versus synthetics divide makes no sense. The quarian are no more different from geth than they are from rachni or krogan. They are also no more likely to go to war with the geth again than any other race; less so, in fact, since they now share a homeworld. By comparison controlling the Reapers was a downright sane ending. There are still a bajillion plot holes but at least gaining control of the reapers is a valid way to resolve the conflict whereas turning everyone into a cyborg doesn't solve anything.

Lastly, I didn't need to replay two hours of difficult fights just fifteen minutes of Shepard's geriatric stumble and unskippable dialogs (with almost no dialog options).
Overall, I still don't like the ending but I think I can come to accept it (i.e. ignore it and just quit the game before the end on future replays). It is definitely not enough to offset my enjoyment of the rest of the story. The Reapers were never the most interesting part anyway.

This is pretty funny. You say it's not as bad as you first thought, and start giving reasons that were obviously completely unintended from Bioware when they were crafting the story. Then the more you talk about it, the more you convince yourself how terrible it really is, and then decide to deny the whole thing even happened.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Chen » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:00 pm UTC

Gelsamel wrote:What pisses me off the most about that comment is how they try to say that the endings are supposed to have some mystery or interpretation in them...


About the endings
Spoiler:
There are theories posted all around the BSN forums and gamefaqs and the like which do try to find explanations for the ending that aren't just "bioware wrote completely inconsistent and bad endings".

A theory that the last bit is just indoctrination/hallucination is one. The only evidence to that theory I find compelling is the fact that with the best ending (destroy and 4000/5000 EMS) you she Shepard breath in a pile of rubble. If the ending cinematic actually occurred I can't reconcile how this is possible. The citadel exploded. For him to have somehow landed on earth and survive that seems pretty impossible. If he was taken out by the Reaper beam and just dreamed the last bit or the last bit was indoctrination it makes a bit more sense (though is still a TERRIBLE rip-off of an ending).

I'll say one thing, people are looking FAR more closely at the ending than they would have if it was one that people just accepted. Whether the inconsistencies they are finding are actual hints at something more or just bad storytelling, well that's still not clear.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:25 pm UTC

Tycho's entry today on PA is maddening. He claims A ) ME3 is gamings first epic (FALSE!), and B ) it's hard to name any games that have a satisfying ending.

You ME3 players are really getting up in arms over the evidently shitty conclusion of this game.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:14 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote: B ) it's hard to name any games that have a satisfying ending.
This is mostly true. But
Spoiler:
Okay, so I read somewhere on reddit that as soon as you see the white platform with Shepard raising up on the Citadel(which by the way is completely fucking random), after s/he fails to start firing the Crucible, to just turn the game off. That's an unsatisfying ending. Shepard fails to fire the weapon, reapers invade, galaxy is extinguished. THE END. That ending is still better and more consistent with the games than what happened. Instead they pull the biggest Deux Ex Machina I can remember. Also the Normandy running away WTF. And explaining the Reapers motivations in such simplistic fashion was pulling the midichlorians out of their asses. Don't explain what can't be explained!
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:25 pm UTC

I don't think it's merely a case of 'The games I played when I was growing up were better!', but I can name at least 6 games for SNES that had not just satisfying endings, but beautiful, masterful, well executed endings. I can name at least 5 for PS1, and probably 5 for PS2.

Also, calling ME the first epic in gaming history, even the first sequential epic (so fine, eliminate FFs, even though any given FF is probably comparable in play time to all 3 MEs), is... shocking... coming from Tycho.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:27 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Tycho's entry today on PA is maddening. He claims A ) ME3 is gamings first epic (FALSE!)


Let's See... Sierra's Quest for Glory series imported characters from the previous games and went on for five games. That's the one that comes immediately to mind.

Izawwlgood wrote:I don't think it's merely a case of 'The games I played when I was growing up were better!', but I can name at least 6 games for SNES that had not just satisfying endings, but beautiful, masterful, well executed endings. I can name at least 5 for PS1, and probably 5 for PS2.

Also, calling ME the first epic in gaming history, even the first sequential epic (so fine, eliminate FFs, even though any given FF is probably comparable in play time to all 3 MEs), is... shocking... coming from Tycho.


I wouldn't count the FF games as epics in the same way. There's extended canon that links them together, but each one is a self-contained storyline that isn't impacted by previous gameplay or impacts subsequent games.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:32 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Tycho's entry today on PA is maddening. He claims A ) ME3 is gamings first epic (FALSE!)


Let's See... Sierra's Quest for Glory series imported characters from the previous games and went on for five games. That's the one that comes immediately to mind.
Wing Commander did that too for 3(maybe 4? I never played 4 or 5).

And really if you are talking about epics, Ultima. Seriously, sequential game over 10 games(most of which were probably about almost as long as 2 ME games). Shit was epic. ...too bad EA fucked it up after they bought Origin(the company, not the platform) and ruined it all after VII. Hey... I see a pattern here.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:41 pm UTC

Well, there was a... substantial amount of revisionist history in the Ultima series. To hear it told in Ultima 6, for example, Ultima 2 happened in the same place as Ultima 1 and 3 (1 & 3 happening in Sosaria aka pre-Britannia Britannia) when it.. happened on Earth. And Mars. And the rest of the solar system. And involved you becoming a Space Ace before you traveled time to defeat the Big Bad in the past.

About the only things that actually happened in U2 that are mentioned in later games are that Minax was defeated and the Quicksword was involved.


That said.. yeah. Ultimas 1-3 were generic RPGs, sure. 4-7 were trying to tell a story, 7.5 was planned as part of 7 until it got too big and was split off to a different game, and you can see where they were trying to go with the 7-9 cycle, they just... didn't. At least, you sorta can. Until 9.

Fucking 9.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:43 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:too bad EA fucked it up after they bought Origin(the company, not the platform) and ruined it all after VII. Hey... I see a pattern here.


Another datapoint: Spore.

Yeah, EA tends to put their emphasis on Budget and Schedule, and they let those two determine Quality.

Thing is EA is just a publisher at this point. Back in the 80's they used to be a developer, but these days the EA offices just handle pushing money around, any games released by them were developed by a subcontracted developer. Bethesda by contrast publishes works developed by outside developers, but they retain their own internal development department as well.

ME2 actually made me hopeful that Bioware had managed to figure out how to pull an actually good game from the jaws of EA's accountants, but between ME3's ending fiasco and it's generally unpolished release it seems that was a bit optimistic.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:44 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:I wouldn't count the FF games as epics in the same way. There's extended canon that links them together, but each one is a self-contained storyline that isn't impacted by previous gameplay or impacts subsequent games.

At the risk of getting into a FF vs ME tangent, which I'm really not trying to do, I don't think having three games, each with about 10-25 hrs of game play and some inconsequential ability to carry your character to the next, trumps a game series that while having little to nothing to do with the other ones in the series, consistently puts out grand stories worth 40-70 hrs of play time.
FF fans are ridiculous too, but the accolades people (Tycho, in this case) seem to be willing to shower upon ME is just over the top.

EDIT: Sorry, to clarify; Don't think ME's 'carry it forward' makes it an epic, where all the FF's aren't epics.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby omgryebread » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:10 pm UTC

Xenosaga was 3 games in the same story with a total play time probably exceeding Mass Effect (especially if you count those terribly annoying sidequests in XS2.)

Golden Sun 1 and 2 were also part of the same story, and Golden Sun 3 was a direct sequel starring the kids of the first generation.

I also don't see why "epic" has to mean across multiple games, but even if it does, there you go.


Thinking about it now, Xenosaga seems pretty similar to Mass Effect. It's ending was pretty similar, though it was bleak without being unsatisfying, and it's weird controlling-deity wasn't out of nowhere, and the relation between it and Shion made far more sense than ME's.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Chen » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:13 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:At the risk of getting into a FF vs ME tangent, which I'm really not trying to do, I don't think having three games, each with about 10-25 hrs of game play and some inconsequential ability to carry your character to the next, trumps a game series that while having little to nothing to do with the other ones in the series, consistently puts out grand stories worth 40-70 hrs of play time.
FF fans are ridiculous too, but the accolades people (Tycho, in this case) seem to be willing to shower upon ME is just over the top.

EDIT: Sorry, to clarify; Don't think ME's 'carry it forward' makes it an epic, where all the FF's aren't epics.


I'm pretty sure the fact that it was 3 games encompassing 1 overall story is all that he meant by epic. Otherwise any of the 40+ hour RPGs out there could be considered epics. I suspect the problem lies more in his mis-use of the word epic than an intentional oversight of any of the other games out there that could be considered as actual epics. To find multiple games where you're telling one single overarching story is actually not that easy. I do agree with Wing Commander being pretty damn close though. Quest for Glory, I don't know. There were individual stories in each one but they weren't really leading to anything big (caveat I stopped playing those at 4 I believe). The only one off the top of my head that really falls into that category is Xenosaga. And I never did finish that one since 2 was a pile of crap that annoyed the hell out of me. But it was one story spanning 3 full games I believe.

I mean it somewhat makes sense. Most companies don't want to risk release a mid-series game if people have to have played the first one to know what's going on. Mass Effect is actually somewhat bad at this. There tries to be exposition at some points during the game about previous ones, but it feels quite forced, especially if you've played the other games.

edit: Ninja'd on Xenosaga by omgryebread
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:24 pm UTC

Re: Storylines across a game series. Geneforge, maybe? The first one really just introduces the Geneforge itself, but 2 through 5 all seem to be relating to the same roughly 20 year span of time in which a war brews, is fought, and the aftermath thereof. Not that Geneforge or the other products Spiderweb makes get much press, given that Geneforge 5 came out in 2009 and looks like this.

...

I really need to break those out and play them. After I finish Avadon. Man, I'm digressing...
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:25 pm UTC

God of War? Halo? MGS? The Metroid Series? LoZ? Devil May Cry? Onimusha? RE? I mean, even Diablo fits.

Oh, man, ST, Avadon is heaps of fun.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby omgryebread » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:31 pm UTC

Chen wrote:[The only one off the top of my head that really falls into that category is Xenosaga. And I never did finish that one since 2 was a pile of crap that annoyed the hell out of me. But it was one story spanning 3 full games I believe.
2 was so good :( The battle system anyway, once you got used to it (i.e. just started using kos-mos and jin to set up combos for MOMO) The terrible terrible dungeon design, though. MOMO's mind being the same dungeon, twice.

This is a really good article on the endings: http://www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-hatred-5-reasons-the-fans-are-right/
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:04 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:What pisses me off the most about that comment is how they try to say that the endings are supposed to have some mystery or interpretation in them...


About the endings
Spoiler:
There are theories posted all around the BSN forums and gamefaqs and the like which do try to find explanations for the ending that aren't just "bioware wrote completely inconsistent and bad endings".

A theory that the last bit is just indoctrination/hallucination is one. The only evidence to that theory I find compelling is the fact that with the best ending (destroy and 4000/5000 EMS) you she Shepard breath in a pile of rubble. If the ending cinematic actually occurred I can't reconcile how this is possible. The citadel exploded. For him to have somehow landed on earth and survive that seems pretty impossible. If he was taken out by the Reaper beam and just dreamed the last bit or the last bit was indoctrination it makes a bit more sense (though is still a TERRIBLE rip-off of an ending).

I'll say one thing, people are looking FAR more closely at the ending than they would have if it was one that people just accepted. Whether the inconsistencies they are finding are actual hints at something more or just bad storytelling, well that's still not clear.
Spoiler:
Shepard takes a breath in one of all possible endings. If we saw a passed out Shepard still in London after all endings then, sure, there would have been a strong case for the 'it was all a dream' idea. I had over 6k points which was more than enough to unlock the 'Shepard survives' ending but choosing the other two option still dissolves you and gives no hint of it being a hallucination.

Also people aren't looking closely at the ending because it is grand or mysterious or well executed and I don't understand why this is often brought up in defense of it. By that logic people would also 'look closely' at an ending where on the way to opening the Citadel Shepard trips, falls down the stairs and breaks his neck.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:22 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
Chen wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:What pisses me off the most about that comment is how they try to say that the endings are supposed to have some mystery or interpretation in them...


About the endings
Spoiler:
There are theories posted all around the BSN forums and gamefaqs and the like which do try to find explanations for the ending that aren't just "bioware wrote completely inconsistent and bad endings".

A theory that the last bit is just indoctrination/hallucination is one. The only evidence to that theory I find compelling is the fact that with the best ending (destroy and 4000/5000 EMS) you she Shepard breath in a pile of rubble. If the ending cinematic actually occurred I can't reconcile how this is possible. The citadel exploded. For him to have somehow landed on earth and survive that seems pretty impossible. If he was taken out by the Reaper beam and just dreamed the last bit or the last bit was indoctrination it makes a bit more sense (though is still a TERRIBLE rip-off of an ending).

I'll say one thing, people are looking FAR more closely at the ending than they would have if it was one that people just accepted. Whether the inconsistencies they are finding are actual hints at something more or just bad storytelling, well that's still not clear.
Spoiler:
Shepard takes a breath in one of all possible endings. If we saw a passed out Shepard still in London after all endings then, sure, there would have been a strong case for the 'it was all a dream' idea. I had over 6k points which was more than enough to unlock the 'Shepard survives' ending but choosing the other two option still dissolves you and gives no hint of it being a hallucination.

Also people aren't looking closely at the ending because it is grand or mysterious or well executed and I don't understand why this is often brought up in defense of it. By that logic people would also 'look closely' at an ending where on the way to opening the Citadel Shepard trips, falls down the stairs and breaks his neck.


Spoiler:
The thing is ME3 ends with a similar construction as the end of Taxi Driver. After an entire movie of watching an awkward social incompetent build up to a violent ending where he's bleeding from an arguable fatal gunshot wound and out of ammo the scene dissolves as he loses consciousness, to the next scene where everything works out, and De Niro's character has suddenly shed his social incompetence... There's a school of interpretation that Bickle actually died in the shoot-out and that the epilogue is a final creation of his dying brain.

ME3 ends like that. Just before the final scene we see Shepard looking at his blood-soaked hand and as Admiral Hackett's asking him what's going on Shepard is rapidly losing consciousness from blood loss before falling prone and unmoving as the platform lifts him up in a beam of light....

Then next scene he's on hands and knees without the blood on his hand, coherent and able to understand his surroundings, and no massive puddle of blood on the platform despite the amount of blood just one scene earlier.

Of course there's a problem determining if it really is a Taxi-Driver scenario because they f-ed up so much of the graphical polish it's entirely possible that Bioware didn't have the time to get the scenes consistent. It would be one thing if we could say for certainty that the inconsistencies were intentional and thus part of the "mystery and Interpretation" that Bioware claims is there, but the possibility is confused with the technical-foul-ups evident through the rest of the game.


Also:

omgryebread wrote:This is a really good article on the endings: http://www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-hatred-5-reasons-the-fans-are-right/


This is a very good article.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Chen » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:40 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
Spoiler:
Shepard takes a breath in one of all possible endings. If we saw a passed out Shepard still in London after all endings then, sure, there would have been a strong case for the 'it was all a dream' idea. I had over 6k points which was more than enough to unlock the 'Shepard survives' ending but choosing the other two option still dissolves you and gives no hint of it being a hallucination.

Also people aren't looking closely at the ending because it is grand or mysterious or well executed and I don't understand why this is often brought up in defense of it. By that logic people would also 'look closely' at an ending where on the way to opening the Citadel Shepard trips, falls down the stairs and breaks his neck.


Spoiler:
Yes he takes a breath in the "best" (well at least most difficult to attain) ending. And he doesn't appear to be on the broken citadel. Either this is, again, some mistake on Bioware's part or its something they meant to do that way. Hell there are so many inconsistencies with the ending it doesn't really make sense. So its either Bioware really making something terrible, or there's something more to it. Either way its pretty weak way to end the game, unless this is all some machiavellian plan of theirs. Something like "wait 1 month after release and release some free DLC that really explains the rest". Using all this as a publicity stunt.

Now the cynic in me thinks its frankly just bad/rushed storytelling and the inconsistencies are exactly that. Still its likely they will release something akin to the Broken Steel retcon for Fallout 3 to "fix" this ending. I'm actually going to be curious to see if they can try to spin it in a "we had planned this all along" way. It'll be interesting if they can pull it off and it'll be interesting if the various things people have been pointing to as "evidence" of their theories are in fact things Bioware planned rather than just plot holes.

And I never said people were looking closer at the game because it was well done or a grand mysterious ending. I just said far more people are digging through minutia of the game to try an explain the generally unsatisfactory ending. Are they just finding MORE plot holes? Sure its possible. But I guess we'll need to see what Bioware says when they actually do come out and talk directly about the ending. I think I read they were under some sort of no spoilers policy for some amount of time after the game was released. One would imagine it could be a month or more, since the game only releases in Japan tomorrow.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Vaniver » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:07 pm UTC

The GameFront article omgryebread linked first is definitely worth reading.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:28 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:The GameFront article omgryebread linked first is definitely worth reading.
Ending spoilers:
Spoiler:
So I understand some of where its coming from, but I am not sure I completely agree with the points. 5 and 4 are spot on. 3, I only really think the Normandy criticism holds(but it holds hard). Points 1 and 2... I don't think the ending discards the all the philosophical themes of the series. ME1 in particularly had some deep Lovecraftian cosmicism to it. And in a sense the ending fits that perfectly, that no matter what you do, no matter how big an impact you think your choices can have, you are only one person in a pitifully small race in a galaxy that doesn't particularly care if life is sustained. I.e. "Your choices aren't that important, the universe is going to go how ever its going to go either way; Get over yourself."

I am okay with the dismantlement of player choice at the end, it is what a truly bleak ending would in fact have. What I am not okay with is the way it was handled via "Child-AI-GOD"... and the Normandy thing... dafuq.

Anyway, the ME twitter account keeps dropping hints like this isn't the end. http://twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179686320568926209
So different ending in DLC? ME4? I think the one ending with Shepard breathing clearly hints at something.
Last edited by Dark567 on Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:34 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:30 pm UTC

That's dipping so obnoxiously into God of War 3 ending territory.
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-We can't go back. But I suppose we can go wherever we please.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Faithful » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:47 pm UTC

Regarding the previous post's spoilers

Spoiler:
Dark567 wrote:
Vaniver wrote:The GameFront article omgryebread linked first is definitely worth reading.
Ending spoilers:[spoiler]So I understand some of where its coming from, but I am not sure I completely agree with the points. 5 and 4 are spot on. 3, I only really think the Normandy criticism holds(but it holds hard). Points 1 and 2... I don't think the ending discards the all the philosophical themes of the series. ME1 in particularly had some deep Lovecraftian cosmicism to it. And in a sense the ending fits that perfectly, that no matter what you do, no matter how big an impact you think your choices can have, you are only one person in a pitifully small race in a galaxy that doesn't particularly care if life is sustained. I.e. "Your choices aren't that important, the universe is going to go how ever its going to go either way; Get over yourself."

I am okay with the dismantlement of player choice at the end, it is what a truly bleak ending would in fact have. What I am not okay with is the way it was handled via "Child-AI-GOD"... and the Normandy thing... dafuq.

Anyway, the ME twitter account keeps dropping hints like this isn't the end. http://twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179686320568926209
So different ending in DLC? ME4? I think the one ending with Shepard breathing clearly hints at something.


Regarding the Ending

Spoiler:
I understand them wanting more content, I really do. I just wanted to see an ending with Shepard and my LI. Yes, I am a helpless romantic but damn, I would have loved to see some awesome Shepard / Ashley or Shepard / Tali endings.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:22 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Vaniver wrote:The GameFront article omgryebread linked first is definitely worth reading.
Ending spoilers:
Spoiler:
So I understand some of where its coming from, but I am not sure I completely agree with the points. 5 and 4 are spot on. 3, I only really think the Normandy criticism holds(but it holds hard). Points 1 and 2... I don't think the ending discards the all the philosophical themes of the series. ME1 in particularly had some deep Lovecraftian cosmicism to it. And in a sense the ending fits that perfectly, that no matter what you do, no matter how big an impact you think your choices can have, you are only one person in a pitifully small race in a galaxy that doesn't particularly care if life is sustained. I.e. "Your choices aren't that important, the universe is going to go how ever its going to go either way; Get over yourself."

I am okay with the dismantlement of player choice at the end, it is what a truly bleak ending would in fact have. What I am not okay with is the way it was handled via "Child-AI-GOD"... and the Normandy thing... dafuq.

Anyway, the ME twitter account keeps dropping hints like this isn't the end. http://twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179686320568926209
So different ending in DLC? ME4? I think the one ending with Shepard breathing clearly hints at something.


Spoiler:
The thing is part and parcel of the Lovecraftian theme is the incomprehensibility of the outer beings, which the ending completely blows to smithereens by out and out stating their motivations. In one sentence no less. By that atrocious Citadel-Child. They don't get to hide lazy writing behind a theme they demolish in their own material.

To parts 1 and 2 I would emphasize the following quote from the article:

Instead, much like the victims of the Reapers themselves, the player is robbed of all free will or even the chance to make the case for it. They must do as they are told, and choose.


For a game so heavily in to character conversations, and being silver-tongued whether you're Paragon or Renegade is a fundamental mechanic of the game, the final choice involves no rhetorical input from Shepard. One of the best mechanics that ME series used to get inside the head of your own character, to understand what Future Hero (Wo)Man was thinking about any particular situation and you get one conversation option dealing with Citadel Child, and one of those options I found rather... disjointed ("You don't understand us." was the reply that made the most sense given my character progression, which was largely paragon, yet it was the renegade conversation option. The paragon response when I tried it seemed to acquiesce to Citadel Child, which even playing mostly paragon my Shepard was never one who just let people walk over him.)

My Shepard wouldn't have -just- picked one of two options, he would have fought, whether with bullets or with ideas. My Shepard wouldn't have let pass the line "Releasing the energy will destroy the Mass Effect Relays..." without comment. Fuck, after everything he did to foster alliances and goodwill, maintaining his Spectre status with the Council, bringing multiple races to the Sol system for the final battle the first conversation option I would have picked was "What will this mean for <$Council_Race>*. Instead he just goes along with shit without comment. Though this just highlights that they were running out of time, they didn't have the time to get the voice-acting or program the conversation engine with the relevant options, or do the cinematic animations.

*Edit: Hell this would have been a great way to do the infodump about all the Normandy's crew and the races, Just ask God what will happen to them when the Mass Relays explode. Might even have been a way to explain what the fuck Joker was doing leaving the battle.

As far as "well if they knew what we have planned..." is bullshit. It means they didn't have the time or money to finish on time, period, and to cover that up they hashed together a patchwork ending that they can dismiss as a "Dream Sequence" when they finally release the patch with content that should have been in the initial release, content that we're going to get to pay an additional $10 to $20 for.

Damnit, I would have been happy to wait for them to get shit right the first time. Releasing something that's not ready only to patch it later at additional cost is an insult to those of us that bought the game at full retail the day it was released (or even before that in the case of pre-orders). DLC should be optional supplemental stuff, not "Psst... Hey, I'll tell you the -real- ending for another $10."
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:26 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:Final Line of the spoiler, still probably a spoiler
Spoiler:
Anyway, the ME twitter account keeps dropping hints like this isn't the end. http://twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179686320568926209
So different ending in DLC? ME4? I think the one ending with Shepard breathing clearly hints at something.


I believe it's the following -

Spoiler:
Pay $5 each for the six DLCs you need to get the REAL ending!


/hasn't even played the damned thing, can't even think of the Origin Platform without getting irrationally furious.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby skeptical scientist » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:31 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Now the cynic in me thinks its frankly just bad/rushed storytelling and the inconsistencies are exactly that.

I think it's quite obvious that this is the case, especially since they clearly phoned in the ending videos. I can't see what would explain that other than lack of time, so probably they left the ending to complete near the end of development, and were being rushed for time by EA.

That's why I'm happy when other studios take the time to actually finish their games, even if it means I have to wait longer.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:33 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
Spoiler:
The thing is part and parcel of the Lovecraftian theme is the incomprehensibility of the outer beings, which the ending completely blows to smithereens by out and out stating their motivations. In one sentence no less. By that atrocious Citadel-Child. They don't get to hide lazy writing behind a theme they demolish in their own material.

Spoiler:
Yeah
I can hardly disagree with you there.

Dauric wrote:Damnit, I would have been happy to wait for them to get shit right the first time. Releasing something that's not ready only to patch it later at additional cost is an insult to those of us that bought the game at full retail the day it was released (or even before that in the case of pre-orders). DLC should be optional supplemental stuff, not "Psst... Hey, I'll tell you the -real- ending for another $10."
I guess the question I have for you then is would have you okay been waiting and paying $70-80 for the game or $90-100 for the collectors edition? Because waiting those few months clearly would impact their costs.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Ghostbear » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:37 pm UTC

SexyTalon wrote:After I finish Avadon. Man, I'm digressing...

I got Avadon on a Steam sale, and it's truly wonderful.

Which is the first example of my reply to the "other satisfying endings" bit: it isn't that hard to think of games with satisfying (perhaps not mind-blowingly awesome, but definitely satisfying endings). Avadon is one of those. I thought Ocarina of Time had a good ending (very simple, and not all that different from the other Zelda games, but wrapped everything up). Homeworld's ending was pretty good (I loved that game). The first Starcraft and Brood War did a good job as well, even if they were helped by the story being not that complex. The Witcher 1 & 2 also had pretty decent endings, though the second one wrapped things up quicker than most people would have liked. Those were fairly complicated stories as well, and they managed to give solid closure to the story being told while still leaving room for the next games. Hell, we can even go back to other games made by Bioware with good endings! BG2- both SoA and ToB- had very complete and satisfying endings. Hell, ME1 had a great ending, and ME2's biggest weakness in most people's eyes was the oddness of the final boss.


@Dark567- I think I explained well my dislike for the ending in an earlier post. With everything being stuck in spoiler boxes and the topic moving quickly and everything, it's pretty easy to miss, so I'm just going to copy-paste it below:
The problem with the ending is multifold:
Spoiler:
1. It's a deus ex machina (in this case, literally) pulled out at the last moment. A major entity- essentially the true villain of the series- is introduced in the last 5 minutes. There's absolutely zero reason for a player to expect the catalyst to be a god-ai-child in the citadel. The existence of such makes no sense within the setting as defined over three games, several books and the available lore. This also devalues everything Shepard- and thus, the player- had been doing throughout the series. It's poor story telling, and is just plain inconsistent with the world they had created.

2. It takes the reapers- something that had been billed as having a purpose that mere organics could never comprehend- and boils their purpose down into one sentence: "Prevent organic races from advancing so far that they create a machine intelligence that would destroy all organic life in existence". They're no longer lovecraftian horrors from beyond, they're just park rangers keeping the population in check. It's not incomprehensible, it's not complicated, it takes less time to explain than Sovereign spent telling us it could not be explained to us. It takes an interesting- if somewhat unoriginal- antagonist and makes them boring.

3. It's lazy: the ending is determined by your choice at the last moment, not your actions before hand. The ending of a game should be the culmination of your prior choices; it should be determined by the decisions you had already made. Just look at BG2 ToB- you got a choice at the very end, yes, but the gritty details of that choice were determined by how you answered questions from Solar earlier, from what you did earlier in the game. The "push a button, win an ending!" mechanic is just outright lazy. The endings in ME3 are all exactly the same once you press that button, regardless of what lead up to it. The endings weren't shifted (even slightly) whether you were paragon or renegade. Imagine if, upon controlling the reapers, that ending branched out in three directions (paragon, renegade, neither) based on Shepard's tilt? There's nothing like that in the ending though, it's unchanging.

4. There's no option to interject and make your own choice. In the end, you're only accepting the choices offered to you. This is always true within a game, but part of the art of making a good choice-centric game is making those choices feel like you made them yourselves. The game completely fails to accomplish that with this ending; you get to the end, you're told "Pick red, blue, or green" and that's it. Shepard has no option to reject those choices and make his/her own. It's all completely arbitrary, and there's no reason given to believe that you're actually constrained to those choices except because that's all the game has options for. You can't even try to reason with the entity, Shepard just nods and accepts fate. That is so amazingly out of character that it completely destroys Shepard as a person, as a hero, as an agent of the player. My Shepard had not once accepted destiny- fuck, the whole plot of the series is about rejecting our pre-determined destruction! Shepard does everything they can to ensure sentients have their own choices to make, their own path to follow, not matter how many obstacles- even by allies- were placed in their path. My Shepard had always tried to reason with everyone, no matter how much it might appear to be a fruitless endeavor; s/he can even talk two indoctrinated people into taking their own lives to fight the reapers, even though indoctrination is supposed to be irreversible and pointless to oppose.

5. This is the big one (save the best for last and all that): the Mass Effect series had been about choice. When you imported a Shepard from a prior installment, you weren't importing the character (you could remake your skills or even your class with every import, your equipment never carried over, and only a limited amount of your prior resources made any showing at all), you were importing the culmination of their choices to date. Your choices were supposed to matter- what you did about the rachni queen, the geth, the genophage, if you saved the council. How you solved the personal dilemmas of your friends and crew. If you preferred to leave a wake of rubble behind you, or tried to reach a compromise to make everyone happy. Whether you stuck by your friends, or betrayed them for the greater good.

Many of the decisions you made were not about the immediate future, they were about determining the long-term future of the galaxy. The ultimate results of that outcome was presumed to become apparent in the time after you finished the game. Curing the genophage would have no galactic consequences in the few months that ME3 covers; people deciding whether or not to cure it did so on the centuries later outlook for what they thought would be best. The geth and quarians getting along or not would have no significant change in the short term, but in the long term, they could become a juggernaut within the new galactic civilization, or recant back to being a pariah. The rachni could doom everybody, or become another benevolent participatory in civilization. And so on and so on.

The problem is, the ending completely invalidates all of those choices. None of them mattered anymore once you got to that ending, because they all ignore and then promptly erase everything you had done beforehand. I had invested myself in making decisions to affect the future of the galaxy, not to get a higher war score. The ending stripped that from me and everybody else.
Or the tl;dr version:
Spoiler:
1. It's logically inconsistent with the established setting.
2. It contradicts prior statements and devalues interesting characters.
3. It's lazy.
4. It contradicts the established character of the player.
5. It invalidates your prior decisions.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:45 pm UTC

Ghostbear wrote:Or the tl;dr version:
Spoiler:
1. It's logically inconsistent with the established setting.
2. It contradicts prior statements and devalues interesting characters.
3. It's lazy.
4. It contradicts the established character of the player.
5. It invalidates your prior decisions.
Spoiler:
I read it and well. I think you have some of it wrong.
1. Yep, its a deus ex machina. It's lame. Agreed.
2. They pulled the midichlorians out of their ass on the reaper explanation. It was bad. Agreed.

On 3, and 5. The point of the ending was to invalidate all your choices you have made in the previous games showing how little you(or even the majority of life in the galaxy) can do in the face of extra-galactic forces, essentially Lovecraftian cosmicism(a theme very heavy in ME1). That's what makes the ending really bleak, not just shades of bleak, but the ultimately all this time there are forces at work here an not matter how hard you try the galaxy is still pretty much doomed. It might not be by the hand of the reapers, but its doomed. Doesn't matter if your good or bad, or if you build large alliances and fix disease and war. Live in the galaxy isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. You can't fix that.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Ryom » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:47 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:Anyway, the ME twitter account keeps dropping hints like this isn't the end. http://twitter.com/#!/masseffect/status/179686320568926209
So different ending in DLC? ME4? I think the one ending with Shepard breathing clearly hints at something.[/spoiler]


If you want the real ending then you'll have to pay extra for it? That seems absurdly obnoxious. I WAS JOKING when I said the DLC was going to end up with us buying endings to our games. I WASN'T SERIOUS DEVS, I SWEAR!

Really, I did say exactly that a few months ago, but intended as a worst case scenario and I didn't think it would actually come to pass :/
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Vaniver » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:47 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:I guess the question I have for you then is would have you okay been waiting and paying $70-80 for the game or $90-100 for the collectors edition? Because waiting those few months clearly would impact their costs.
Um, yes?
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dauric » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:48 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Dauric wrote:Damnit, I would have been happy to wait for them to get shit right the first time. Releasing something that's not ready only to patch it later at additional cost is an insult to those of us that bought the game at full retail the day it was released (or even before that in the case of pre-orders). DLC should be optional supplemental stuff, not "Psst... Hey, I'll tell you the -real- ending for another $10."
I guess the question I have for you then is would have you okay been waiting and paying $70-80 for the game or $90-100 for the collectors edition? Because waiting those few months clearly would impact their costs.


For ME3 , actually yes. First game in a series probably not, but the ME series was ambitious from the get-go, and by the time we got to the 3'rd part how ambitious would have been apparent to their fans, so a -done right- ME3 could probably have commanded a higher price than the standard $60 per title. As it is the negative talk about the endings in't helping EA or Bioware, probably turning more people from the new release purchase to the used-copy to avoid wasting money on it.
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Postby Dark567 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:56 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Dark567 wrote:I guess the question I have for you then is would have you okay been waiting and paying $70-80 for the game or $90-100 for the collectors edition? Because waiting those few months clearly would impact their costs.
Um, yes?
Yeah, I mean I guess I honestly would too. There just seems to be price stickiness in gaming that refuses to move the sticker price of games anywhere and functions to make them go to other sources for revenue. My point was more of the fact that gamers always say they are willing to wait longer for games to be done, without understanding that the waiting is losing the devs money, and that may have to be made up for somehow.
I apologize, 90% of the time I write on the Fora I am intoxicated.


Yakk wrote:The question the thought experiment I posted is aimed at answering: When falling in a black hole, do you see the entire universe's future history train-car into your ass, or not?
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