Mass Effect 3 (Seriously, Use Spoilers People!)

[An Enraged Platypus]

EBWOP: FInally finished MP on Gold. Wave 9 is like a Greatest Hits compilation of situations that produce that 'NOPE' face as I play. I was so glad I saved my rocket launcher; halfway through level 10 I was making my way to a hit target and ran into a room with 3 phantoms, 2 engineers (one deploying a turret) 2 Atlas, and a Guardian. The kill-it-with-fire moment as the launcher span up and sent them all to Dis was exhilarating.

[Chewbaccawacca]

Welp, time to finish DA:O. My progress through it has been glacial; I'm left cold by the writing, to the extent that periodically bits of me fall off into the sea to sink unsinkable liners.

Heh, me too. My Dwarven Noble was fun to play for the Origin, but afterwords I just lost interest.

[maybeagnostic]

The reveal of Sovereign in ME1 was surprising and exciting but nothing about the Reapers since then has been particularly terrifying or mystifying. Their behavior has been explained quite satisfactorily so far. They let intelligent life develop and struggle through natural selection so they can come in and 'reap' the most successful species. Each ship is made up of millions of conscious minds interacting in a process resembling the geth subroutine communication (also explains why the Reapers have no real interest in the geth since the geth are kind of a deficient reaper already) and they use organic species as the source of these minds. Whatever the Reapers do in dark space most of the time seems to have no direct influence on the galaxy and it doesn't appear to be scientific or technological development either so that seems almost irrelevant to the story. I think they need some fresh mystery but the final game in the trilogy is probably not the place to introduce that.

[An Enraged Platypus]

The reveal of Sovereign in ME1 was surprising and exciting but nothing about the Reapers since then has been particularly terrifying or mystifying. Their behavior has been explained quite satisfactorily so far. They let intelligent life develop and struggle through natural selection so they can come in and 'reap' the most successful species. Each ship is made up of millions of conscious minds interacting in a process resembling the geth subroutine communication (also explains why the Reapers have no real interest in the geth since the geth are kind of a deficient reaper already) and they use organic species as the source of these minds. Whatever the Reapers do in dark space most of the time seems to have no direct influence on the galaxy and it doesn't appear to be scientific or technological development either so that seems almost irrelevant to the story. I think they need some fresh mystery but the final game in the trilogy is probably not the place to introduce that.

I'm with Belial here. If there is even a whiff of explanation of the Reapers in terms mortal minds can comprehend, it will be a letdown. Honestly, if the ending is anything but some kind of pyrrhic victory, it will be a letdown. I want a final mission a la ME2, except where every junction/new scenario is choosing one party member life over another (Virmire style), or deciding between saving the Destiny Ascension and horrific Arcturus Fleet losses. I hope (although this was probably never on the cards for real) that the ending is the Reapers succeeding bar the Normandy jumping to a safe location, with a suitably frank Shepard/Harbinger exchange about how pointless even trying to escape is. I want Shepard to see how futile human existence is in light of the Reapers -really see- then make an existentialist's resolute decision to spit at the Reapers with her dying breath.

[Yakk]

A pyrrhic, with most homeworlds destroyed, a remnant of a remnant of a fleet left (the reaper main fleet having been destroyed by luring them into a triggered supernova, with most of the mortal fleet also destroyed). Then, a cut to celebrations, cutting to the various remaining capitals and colonies, ala remastered Return of the Jedi...

Followed by an old-school space-invaders "Level 1 Wave 1 defeated" splash screen. Then credits.

[Belial]

I'm with Belial here. If there is even a whiff of explanation of the Reapers in terms mortal minds can comprehend, it will be a letdown. Honestly, if the ending is anything but some kind of pyrrhic victory, it will be a letdown. I want a final mission a la ME2, except where every junction/new scenario is choosing one party member life over another (Virmire style), or deciding between saving the Destiny Ascension and horrific Arcturus Fleet losses. I hope (although this was probably never on the cards for real) that the ending is the Reapers succeeding bar the Normandy jumping to a safe location, with a suitably frank Shepard/Harbinger exchange about how pointless even trying to escape is. I want Shepard to see how futile human existence is in light of the Reapers -really see- then make an existentialist's resolute decision to spit at the Reapers with her dying breath.

They have mentioned that it's possible to "beat" the game and still have the reapers win. I suspect you'll be able to get your wish.

[maybeagnostic]

The reveal of Sovereign in ME1 was surprising and exciting but nothing about the Reapers since then has been particularly terrifying or mystifying. Their behavior has been explained quite satisfactorily so far. They let intelligent life develop and struggle through natural selection so they can come in and 'reap' the most successful species. Each ship is made up of millions of conscious minds interacting in a process resembling the geth subroutine communication (also explains why the Reapers have no real interest in the geth since the geth are kind of a deficient reaper already) and they use organic species as the source of these minds. Whatever the Reapers do in dark space most of the time seems to have no direct influence on the galaxy and it doesn't appear to be scientific or technological development either so that seems almost irrelevant to the story. I think they need some fresh mystery but the final game in the trilogy is probably not the place to introduce that.

I'm with Belial here. If there is even a whiff of explanation of the Reapers in terms mortal minds can comprehend, it will be a letdown. Honestly, if the ending is anything but some kind of pyrrhic victory, it will be a letdown. I want a final mission a la ME2, except where every junction/new scenario is choosing one party member life over another (Virmire style), or deciding between saving the Destiny Ascension and horrific Arcturus Fleet losses. I hope (although this was probably never on the cards for real) that the ending is the Reapers succeeding bar the Normandy jumping to a safe location, with a suitably frank Shepard/Harbinger exchange about how pointless even trying to escape is. I want Shepard to see how futile human existence is in light of the Reapers -really see- then make an existentialist's resolute decision to spit at the Reapers with her dying breath.

But they are explained! We already know (almost) exactly what they want from us and at least some of the why. Maybe it's just that I was never impressed with lovecraftian horror, maybe it's reading too much sci fi but the Reapers never felt incomprehensible to me. Neither Sovereign nor Harbinger did or said anything truly alien and the whole "we are beyond your simple minds' understanding" bit falls kind of flat. To clarify, I don't want an explanation of the Reapers, I want to see them actually be more alien.

I would also love to see that ending. It would be extremely life affirming in a strange way.

[Chewbaccawacca]

You know what would be a cool option? A defeated and resigned Shep, disenfranchised with the galaxy they've been trying to save for so long, deciding that Saren had the right idea and strives the last half of the game to have the xenocide the Reapers have sought for.

(yes technically Saren wanted to ally himself with the Reapers, but I prefer a more nihilistic Shep)

[Xanthir]

There are supposed to be harvester husks:

Spoiler:

The rachni are the ravager husks, I believe. The harvester husks are the "dragons" you see in one or two sidequests in ME2, like that one with super-low visibility where you have to light the beacon track as you tromp up a mountain.

[WarDaft]

Spoiled for cynicism.

Spoiler:

The problem with the reapers is that there is no justification for what they are doing. If they are seeking improvement, then they are wasting unimaginable amounts of resources just by sitting in the dark waiting while the stars slowly grow cold. It doesn't matter if they don't value biological life, they have no particular reason to, what's surprising is that they actually bother letting it return, it's pointless.

If they like torturing innocents, then they are being wasteful in their extermination of the species.

If they can only make more reapers by 'uplifting' a species, then they are again being wasteful by exterminating the rest, they should only wound the rest, and return in a few hundred years to reap again, instead of waiting for an entirely new wave of societies.

If they are in fact intending something that when looked at overall could in fact be construed as good... they still aren't doing near as good a job as super-intelligent machine group minds should be!{/i]

There is [i]nothing they are doing optimally, except being decent antagonists for a video game... when you don't think too hard about their motives.

[ArgonV]

Sudden switch of topic- so what's up with Cerberus? At the end of ME2 EDI tells you Cerberus currently has four cells with a total of 200 agents and the Illusive Man always keeps it at roughly that size. The Normandy is one of those and Project Overlord is presumably another. They probably have ~100 agents between the two of them so where do all the Cerberus commandos come from? I can accept there was a commando cell sent out to kill the krogan for some reason but the multiplayer seems to imply Cerberus is actually a major enemy with lots of forces.

As I understood it, agents are persons like Miranda, overseeing a cell. So that'd mean there are about 200 cells of who-knows-how-many people comprising Cerberus.

[maybeagnostic]

Spoiled for cynicism.

Spoiler:

The problem with the reapers is that there is no justification for what they are doing. If they are seeking improvement, then they are wasting unimaginable amounts of resources just by sitting in the dark waiting while the stars slowly grow cold. It doesn't matter if they don't value biological life, they have no particular reason to, what's surprising is that they actually bother letting it return, it's pointless.

If they like torturing innocents, then they are being wasteful in their extermination of the species.

If they can only make more reapers by 'uplifting' a species, then they are again being wasteful by exterminating the rest, they should only wound the rest, and return in a few hundred years to reap again, instead of waiting for an entirely new wave of societies.

If they are in fact intending something that when looked at overall could in fact be construed as good... they still aren't doing near as good a job as super-intelligent machine group minds should be!{/i]

There is [i]nothing they are doing optimally, except being decent antagonists for a video game... when you don't think too hard about their motives.

I assumed they are aiming for diversity in their own species. Every time they come back one (or possibly several) reapers are made from the current 'best' race available then they wipe out all organics so a new and different species can evolve and replace them. (That argument would be more convincing if most alien races weren't essentially modern day Americans)

As I understood it, agents are persons like Miranda, overseeing a cell. So that'd mean there are about 200 cells of who-knows-how-many people comprising Cerberus.

EDI tells Shepard that there are only four cells right now because the Illusive Man wants to keep close tabs on each one. Of course, Shepard wipes out several Cerberus cells in ME1 so obviously the number is pretty shaky.

[letterX]

Spoiled for cynicism.

Spoiler:

The problem with the reapers is that there is no justification for what they are doing. If they are seeking improvement, then they are wasting unimaginable amounts of resources just by sitting in the dark waiting while the stars slowly grow cold. It doesn't matter if they don't value biological life, they have no particular reason to, what's surprising is that they actually bother letting it return, it's pointless.

If they like torturing innocents, then they are being wasteful in their extermination of the species.

If they can only make more reapers by 'uplifting' a species, then they are again being wasteful by exterminating the rest, they should only wound the rest, and return in a few hundred years to reap again, instead of waiting for an entirely new wave of societies.

If they are in fact intending something that when looked at overall could in fact be construed as good... they still aren't doing near as good a job as super-intelligent machine group minds should be!{/i]

There is [i]nothing they are doing optimally, except being decent antagonists for a video game... when you don't think too hard about their motives.

Spoiler:

It's the same problem with the machines in the Matrix. If they're so damn smart, and have had hundreds of years of post-singularity development, why don't they just win?

Of course, it's possible that the creators of the Reapers accidentally created a Paperclip Maximizer. And, to be completely cynical about it, I think that "Paperclips" are really "Galactic Dramatic Tension" in this case...

[omgryebread]

I fully expect the Reaper's origins to be explained in ME3 to my great disappointment. I would be really happy if you never found anything out about who created them, why they feel the need to engage in this cycle, etc. Maybe a few very loose references to what created them in a kind of Bethesdaish "this may or may not be true, and it's super confusing and obtuse either way" style. But Bioware doesn't seem to write entirely like that. I'm guessing the origin of Darkspawn will end up pretty clear in Dragon Age eventually as well.

[An Enraged Platypus]

So, I now have the Claymore in the MP demo. It's so slow to reload, it's hardly worth it. The Widow, on the other hand, has the reputation for being godmode. IT doesn't want to drop.

[WarDaft]

I assumed they are aiming for diversity in their own species. Every time they come back one (or possibly several) reapers are made from the current 'best' race available then they wipe out all organics so a new and different species can evolve and replace them. (That argument would be more convincing if most alien races weren't essentially modern day Americans)

They're still not doing that very effectively either. They could easily reduce the cycle length to 5000 years if they want full on civilizations, probably even less since they're so much smarter than I am and I could certainly find a way to reduce the cycle to at least 5000 years. There's also the problem of how effectively primate by comparison humans are going to benefit the diversity of an aeons old civilization of creatures with brains larger than skyscrapers, but whatever.

I'm guessing the origin of Darkspawn will end up pretty clear in Dragon Age eventually as well.

Uh, I thought they covered the back story on that in the intro cinematic... I take it something later in DA (or DA:O or whatever) contradicts this? I never bothered to finish, the game just never got to a point of feeling 'fun' to me.

[Koa]

They're still not doing that very effectively either. They could easily reduce the cycle length to 5000 years if they want full on civilizations, probably even less since they're so much smarter than I am and I could certainly find a way to reduce the cycle to at least 5000 years.

Maybe they understand the statistical probability for a life form to develop to the point where they have some value to a reaper, and their cycle is mathematically optimal. Since we don't know what it is that they're after we can't know how optimally they're doing it.

[BlackSails]

The reapers and their cycles really remind me of battlestar galatica. "All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again".

[Lucrece]

I spoiled myself on the endings at BSN. Shouldn't really do these things close to going to sleep. I'm glad I looked, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5R_pS0h ... r_embedded

Also, people will be pleased with the voice work at least. It's stupidly well done. Yay for leaked yet controversial romance lists.

[Gelsamel]

Is there anywhere I can look to be spoiled about everything in ME3?

[Lucrece]

http://social.bioware.com/group/5245/&v=discussions

[VectorZero]

LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU *fingers in eyes and eyes tightly closed*

[An Enraged Platypus]

Spoiled for cynicism.

Spoiler:

The problem with the reapers is that there is no justification for what they are doing. If they are seeking improvement, then they are wasting unimaginable amounts of resources just by sitting in the dark waiting while the stars slowly grow cold. It doesn't matter if they don't value biological life, they have no particular reason to, what's surprising is that they actually bother letting it return, it's pointless.

If they like torturing innocents, then they are being wasteful in their extermination of the species.

If they can only make more reapers by 'uplifting' a species, then they are again being wasteful by exterminating the rest, they should only wound the rest, and return in a few hundred years to reap again, instead of waiting for an entirely new wave of societies.

If they are in fact intending something that when looked at overall could in fact be construed as good... they still aren't doing near as good a job as super-intelligent machine group minds should be!{/i]

There is [i]nothing they are doing optimally, except being decent antagonists for a video game... when you don't think too hard about their motives.

Reapers are more or less explicitly gods; in Rudolf Otto's formulation this would make them 'Mysterium Tremendum'. By this definition, they are mysterious, although 'mysterious' does no justice to 'mysterium'. Mystery implies that there are clues to be found, ways of knowing or finding out what is and was going on with them. A true god is an enigma with no solution, a mystery that transcends mystery itself. Even hazily discerning a god's motives is impossible; when we say 'God moves in mysterious ways' that ought not mean 'god moves in highly convoluted ways towards comparatively simple, mortally-intelligible ends' although these days, particularly in the context of amateur theodicy, it is taken to mean that. If they are rightfully to be called gods, then all human reasoning ought to, and does, lose power and break off.

Still, bet you the farm they get given anthropomorphic or at least anthropocentric reasons for acting in ME3.

[Belial]

They let intelligent life develop and struggle through natural selection so they can come in and 'reap' the most successful species. Each ship is made up of millions of conscious minds interacting in a process resembling the geth subroutine communication (also explains why the Reapers have no real interest in the geth since the geth are kind of a deficient reaper already) and they use organic species as the source of these minds.

That was an idea I tossed around for a bit too, but the simple fact is that liquefying a person is a goddamn terrible way to preserve their mind. There's no indication that the minds of the people involved are preserved. So they just make nervous systems out of people-juice.

In fact, it's arguable as to whether they even always do that. They had to start somewhere, and I think it's unlikely that "let's liquefy an entire organic species and throw it in this robot to see what happens" was someone's science fair project. It's entirely possible they don't need sentient organics for reproduction, they just did it this time for...reasons?

Whatever the Reapers do in dark space most of the time seems to have no direct influence on the galaxy and it doesn't appear to be scientific or technological development either so that seems almost irrelevant to the story.

It's relevant in that it gives them a place to be, and it's a place that makes no sense. There is nothing to do out there, so why?

(In Their House in Dark Space, Dead Reapers Lie Dreaming)

[Enokh]

Maybe they really DO just. . .hang out there and think. It's like a country club for Reapers.

If that's what they do, then them making new Reapers out of the minds of organics makes a mild amount of sense: they want new conversation partners, or new perspectives, but regular Organics aren't intelligent enough to think on their level. So they grab a bunch of them and roll them into one big super-brain (I guess), that way they get both the new perspective due to that race's innate whateverness, and get new Reapers to talk to. Ideally, I imagine this means that they new Reapers aren't activated until that Reaper's race is eliminated, in order to prevent said Reapers from feeling some sort of attachment to their previous race. Bu the time they find out the truth, they're already well into. . .Reaper-hood.

Them rolling by and purging organic life makes sense -- Shepard shows us that "lower life-forms" can become a threat to them, so killing them at this stage is pretty necessary. They can't leave some of the race alive to harvest again a bit down the road, because that runs the risk of them becoming a threat.

I'm REALLY hoping we see other styles of Reapers. That they all looked the same when they attacked Earth didn't sit well with me, from the "they used to be other races" standpoint.

[SlyReaper]

I thought the idea was that liquefying organics helped the reapers evolve somehow. They allow evolution to take its course, come and do their reaping bit, analyse the remains, and incorporate any interesting bits into themselves. It's still a very shaky premise though (because why do you need to harvest an entire species to do that?), so it probably is just better to think of them as unknowable eldritch horrors.

[Belial]

I'm REALLY hoping we see other styles of Reapers. That they all looked the same when they attacked Earth didn't sit well with me, from the "they used to be other races" standpoint.

It's stated somewhere that they basically all use some variation on that outer hull (Which is based on the Reaper Cuttlefish) as their armor and mobility, and that it's just the core that's different.

[omgryebread]

I'm guessing the origin of Darkspawn will end up pretty clear in Dragon Age eventually as well.

Uh, I thought they covered the back story on that in the intro cinematic... I take it something later in DA (or DA:O or whatever) contradicts this? I never bothered to finish, the game just never got to a point of feeling 'fun' to me.

Some of the beings in the fade dispute the story, and what's given in the intro is the official Chantry line, and they're kinda dicks.


So my assumption is that the Reapers just do the whole cycle thing because it's fun for them. They have no actual need to do the whole killing everyone thing, but when you're a near-omnipotent dreadnought that rules the entire galaxy, what else is left?

[Belial]

Oh there are Lots of Reasons for purging intelligent life from the galaxy. (Massive Spoilers for the first couple books in the Revelation Space series)

I'm sure it makes sense to them.

[maybeagnostic]

That was an idea I tossed around for a bit too, but the simple fact is that liquefying a person is a goddamn terrible way to preserve their mind. There's no indication that the minds of the people involved are preserved. So they just make nervous systems out of people-juice.

I just imagined a haggard writer trying to explain how liquefying people made no sense and being ignored. Then the writer proceeded to cry when someone decided the reaper should be a giant skeleton. Alternatively their minds had already been copied and liquefying them was just the Collectors recycling waste material.

In fact, it's arguable as to whether they even always do that. They had to start somewhere, and I think it's unlikely that "let's liquefy an entire organic species and throw it in this robot to see what happens" was someone's science fair project. It's entirely possible they don't need sentient organics for reproduction, they just did it this time for...reasons?

I can totally see it being someone's science project- an organic species turning themselves into a collaborative, immortal, and very powerful machine on purpose.

It's relevant in that it gives them a place to be, and it's a place that makes no sense. There is nothing to do out there, so why?

There are thousands of Reapers out there, they could be doing all kinds of things. They could be working on mathematical philosophy, living in an incredibly complicated simulated reality, or watching reruns of Friends but we know nothing about it so it's not unknowable just unknown. I choose to believe they arrange themselves in a huge radio telescope and communicate with Reapers in other galaxies in some universe-spanning community (there is less interference in the signal from dark space and they only go 'shopping' in the galaxy every 50,000 years).

If that's what they do, then them making new Reapers out of the minds of organics makes a mild amount of sense: they want new conversation partners, or new perspectives, but regular Organics aren't intelligent enough to think on their level. So they grab a bunch of them and roll them into one big super-brain (I guess), that way they get both the new perspective due to that race's innate whateverness, and get new Reapers to talk to.

That's pretty much what I was thinking.

[ArgonV]

Just pre-ordered the game for €36.44, including shipping. It's weird actually. Online: €50,-. Hardcopy, with all the shipping, handling, storage, printing and material costs involved: a lot less. Something's wrong with a business model somewhere.

[Vaniver]

Amazon, y u send me email saying I can download my preorder when I can't download it for another hour?

[Obby]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2W3mif0z-Q

^ Official launch trailer

As stupid as it may sound, I honestly am left speechless after watching that. I want this game, and I want it right the hell now.

[Xeio]

Hrmmm, I think I like the take back earth trailers better myself.

[Obby]

Hey, you're entitled to your opinion.

Even if it's wrong.

[Xanthir]

Agreed. Ho. Lee. Shit. That was the best trailer.

[Gelsamel]

Bleh I can't access that spoiler forum...

But here are my guesses.

Spoiler:

1: Reapers are actually pre-darkspawn and/or Archdemons/Old Gods and DA is set after ME3.
2: Reapers are actually implementing a "Universal Instrumentality Project"
3: Reapers are actually complex universe simulators that for various reasons can only be created by transforming an entire technologically advanced species into the computer.
4: Reapers are actually complex spacetime engines that for various reasons have to reproduce in the way they do so they can get enough of them to stop or reverse the expansion of the universe so that heat death doesn't occur.
5: Reapers are their own race that for various reasons needs to reproduce in the way they do so that they can make a reaper of the reaper-race.
6: Reapers are just trolling everyone by taking irrational and inefficient actions.
7: Reapers are incapable of feeling emotions so the way they reproduce is an experiment to try and reproduce a reaper with emotions (Aka a Straw Vulcan story).
8: Reapers were produced by the first starfaring race in the throes of their demise as a Xanatos Roulette to ressurect their race.
9: The universe is a gradstudent's simulation and, after findng out that the species who turn up tend to end up fucking up the universe he coded in the reapers to guard each particular galaxy so that, whenever they seem to be going the wrong way the reapers kill them all.
10: The reapers were created by something explicitly as a 'challenge' that life has to overcome to prove that it is perfected enough to be worthy of surviving. The 50,000 years is preparation time.

Thats all for now.

[SlyReaper]

The game is now pre-loadable on Origin. Minor gripe: "Your release date will be: 09 March 2012, 00:00". What ever happened to a UK release date on the 8th?

[BlackSails]

In the trailer, at around 1:20, it looks like one reaper is attacking another?

[Dark567]

I like this one(even if its live action):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DSCFQcR08E