Explosion in Oslo

[CorruptUser]

So basically, hyper-nationalist.

[Aetius]

There has to be some significance to the fact that he attacked what he saw as those that allow immigration and not the immigrants themselves. What that significance is, I have no idea.

[mmmcannibalism]

There has to be some significance to the fact that he attacked what he saw as those that allow immigration and not the immigrants themselves. What that significance is, I have no idea.

Its possible it plays into an ideology that isn't strictly racist* but believes different races should have their own separate countries.

*in the race X is better then race R sort of way

[Jahoclave]

There has to be some significance to the fact that he attacked what he saw as those that allow immigration and not the immigrants themselves. What that significance is, I have no idea.

Well, it also might have to do with Norway's demographics. Their immigrant population is something like 11%, but some of that is still Europeanish and then I'm not certain of the integration in Oslo. So it might be that there also wasn't a good immigrant target to hit as there was in the sort of attention getting of the targets he did attack.

[addams]

The gunman is not a marginal Neonazi

See, I'm confused.
<Comparison between killer's ideology and Nazism>

The key word in Thadlerian's statement is indeed 'marginal' and not Neonazi. Going 'oh it was just some nutjob' is too easy. It ignores the fact that ordinary 'people like us' can be driven to commit atrocities like this. For the same reason I dislike it when people refer to the real Nazis as 'monsters' rather than humans. The most important lesson of that period of history is that the Nazis weren't monsters, they were ordinary humans just like us, who loved their families and were probably pretty decent people in daily life. Yet even so they were able to construct for themselves a system of morality in which they could slaughter fellow human beings simply on basis of their decent without a second thought. Until we accept that ordinary human beings just like us are capable of that, and not just some dehumanised 'monsters' we will always be at risk of those events happening again.

There is a ring of truth to your post. I am not sure what part it is. There are terrible things that are happening as I type. I, have to, trust the people of North West Europe. We are in the care of one another. All of us.
It is true that people can convince themselves that, 'the end justifies the means'.

It doesn't.

[CorruptUser]

Wait, what countries do these people expect everyone to return to? For example, where do the British belong? They are the descendants of various Gallic tribes that were conquered* by Germanic tribes, who in turn were conquered** by Normans (who were mostly Scandinavian). Do the Brits belong in Britain? Normandy? Scandinavia?

The Turks aren't native to Turkey; the Ottoman Turks arrived*** in Anatolia roughly 800 years ago.

And that isn't even touching the US.

*That is, villages pillaged, men slaughtered, women raped
**Same thing, though not quite as severe this time around
***Again, raped and pillaged their way through

[Jahoclave]

Wait, what countries do these people expect everyone to return to? For example, where do the British belong? They are the descendants of various Gallic tribes that were conquered* by Germanic tribes, who in turn were conquered** by Normans (who were mostly Scandinavian). Do the Brits belong in Britain? Normandy? Scandinavia?

The Turks aren't native to Turkey; the Ottoman Turks arrived*** in Anatolia roughly 800 years ago.

And that isn't even touching the US.

*That is, villages pillaged, men slaughtered, women raped
**Same thing, though not quite as severe this time around
***Again, raped and pillaged their way through

Somewhere the fuck else that isn't Europe. I don't think they rather care as long as you're of what is considered "traditional" European you get to stay and everybody else can gtfo. I don't think 800 years back is too important. I think a good guide is, who was in charge there in the 1800s.

[cjmcjmcjmcjm]

My respect for the Norwegian prime minister has soared after he said this; "Svaret på vold er enda mer demokrati, enda mer åpenhet, men aldri naivitet. Det skylder vi ofrene." In english; "The answer to violence is even more democracy, even more openness, but never naivete. We owe the victims this." In the face of what has just happened, that is an incredible thing to say, and an even more incredible thing to hold to. Go Norway.

Go Norway.
I completely agree with him. The answer to lunatic ideals is exposing them to the full light of day and showing people just how lunatic they are.

I really wish we (the US) got this after 9/11. Instead, we got "go to Disney/shopping", security theatre, and politicians too stupid to govern (let in by fearful/ignorant/stupid.whatever populace). Why didn't we have that kind of leadership back then or even now?

[Nattlinnen]

There has to be some significance to the fact that he attacked what he saw as those that allow immigration and not the immigrants themselves. What that significance is, I have no idea.

Well, while he hated Islam he hated the Social Democrats just as much, for disassembling Norway. Extreme hatred towards the left (even middle left) is quite common in the far right corner of the world, especially here in the Nordic countries where the Labour parties have hold a lot of power. This attack is an attack against Social Democrats first, democracy and Norway secondly.

[Technical Ben]

Wait, what countries do these people expect everyone to return to? For example, where do the British belong? They are the descendants of various Gallic tribes that were conquered* by Germanic tribes, who in turn were conquered** by Normans (who were mostly Scandinavian). Do the Brits belong in Britain? Normandy? Scandinavia?

The Turks aren't native to Turkey; the Ottoman Turks arrived*** in Anatolia roughly 800 years ago.

And that isn't even touching the US.

*That is, villages pillaged, men slaughtered, women raped
**Same thing, though not quite as severe this time around
***Again, raped and pillaged their way through

Yep. I have to remind my customers, my "foreign" looks come from my British side of the family. The side that is British going back centuries. My "British" looks actually come from my European side of the family. The thing we think to be native is not, and visa versa. But give no less than a decade, and people forget what was before, and think it was always the same. I've no preference of cause. As long as I'm human I'm happy.

[a_fuzzyduck]

Wait, what countries do these people expect everyone to return to? For example, where do the British belong? They are the descendants of various Gallic tribes that were conquered* by Germanic tribes, who in turn were conquered** by Normans (who were mostly Scandinavian). Do the Brits belong in Britain? Normandy? Scandinavia?

The Turks aren't native to Turkey; the Ottoman Turks arrived*** in Anatolia roughly 800 years ago.

And that isn't even touching the US.

*That is, villages pillaged, men slaughtered, women raped
**Same thing, though not quite as severe this time around
***Again, raped and pillaged their way through

Yep. I have to remind my customers, my "foreign" looks come from my British side of the family. The side that is British going back centuries. My "British" looks actually come from my European side of the family. The thing we think to be native is not, and visa versa. But give no less than a decade, and people forget what was before, and think it was always the same. I've no preference of cause. As long as I'm human I'm happy.

I'd be fucked basically, I'm Scottish of Irish descent. So yeah, you'd be flip flopping a LOT to get to my "proper" place

[Роберт]

Describes himself as a Christian and conservative on Facebook page attributed to him

Hmmm... sounds like anyone who "looks Christian" should get more scrutiny at airports now, amirite?

It's incredibly sad that a man who is sane enough to effectively plan something as well as he did would have such a despicable goal. I don't understand Norway's justice system, but from the earlier explanation it sounds like he probably will get life in prison. I certainly wouldn't trust this man with anything ever, so life in prison seems like the best we should offer.

[Ulc]

Describes himself as a Christian and conservative on Facebook page attributed to him

Hmmm... sounds like anyone who "looks Christian" should get more scrutiny at airports now, amirite?

It's incredibly sad that a man who is sane enough to effectively plan something as well as he did would have such a despicable goal. I don't understand Norway's justice system, but from the earlier explanation it sounds like he probably will get life in prison. I certainly wouldn't trust this man with anything ever, so life in prison seems like the best we should offer.

The longest he can get is 21 years.

I'm not sure it has hit international news yet, but Danish media reports that the police has adjusted the death toll down to 68, apparently they assumed anyone missing was dead for the sake of not being overly optimistic.

[Felstaff]

Frankly it disgusted me when, in the absence of any evidence whatsoever, the media leapt immediately to Islamic terrorism.

Rupert Murdoch's filthy rag, along with the WSJ, was most heinously guilty for this. Al Jazeera neatly summed up the mood of the media in the chaotic few hours that followed, when none of us knew nuthin'.

[Thirty-one]

I don't understand Norway's justice system, but from the earlier explanation it sounds like he probably will get life in prison. I certainly wouldn't trust this man with anything ever, so life in prison seems like the best we should offer.

The longest he can get is 21 years.

Yes and no. It'll likely be 21+5+5..+5..

http://www.kriminalomsorgen.no/index.php?id=278212

^It's written after the NOKAS case, but it should still be relevant.

Forvaring er, i motsetning til fengselsstraff, tidsubestemt. Retten fastsetter imidlertid alltid en tidsramme som ikke kan overstige 21 år. Når tidsrammen utløper, kan lovbryteren vurderes på nytt. Hvis domstolen konkluderer med at gjentakelsesfaren fremdeles er til stede, kan tidsrammen forlenges med inntil fem år om gangen. Det er ingen øvre grense for hvor mange ganger domstolen kan forlenge tidsrammen. I prinsippet kan derfor en person som idømmes forvaring sitte i fengsel livet ut.

That'll be the most relevant bit. If anyone wants it non-google translated, I can probably do that later.

[Роберт]

Frankly it disgusted me when, in the absence of any evidence whatsoever, the media leapt immediately to Islamic terrorism.

Rupert Murdoch's filthy rag, along with the WSJ, was most heinously guilty for this. Al Jazeera neatly summed up the mood of the media in the chaotic few hours that followed, when none of us knew nuthin'.

It was Islamic motivated terrorism. In an ironic way. I guess more accurately islamophobic motivated terrorism. Kind of the opposite of what people assumed.

Anyway, no surprise that people assumed Islamer. People forget about the unabomber, or the Oklahoma City bomber, or the crazy guy who flew his airplane into an IRS building in Austin (just a small sample set). There's still that "I know not all muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are muslims" thing going on.

[Ulc]

There's still that "I know not all muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are muslims" thing going on.

Which are frankly just wrong.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+loonwatch+%28loonwatch.com%29

In the US from 1980 to 2005 a measly 6% of all terrorist attacks was done by muslims - in EU, this was less than half a percent.

Thanks goes out to Felltir for sharing that link sometime during the weekend

[bentheimmigrant]

But, according to many, it was not terrorism at all.

[Lazar]

According to MSNBC, Norwegian police have lowered the death toll on Utøya from 86 to 68.

[Dark567]

In the US from 1980 to 2005 a measly 6% of all terrorist attacks was done by muslims - in EU, this was less than half a percent.

Actually looking at the docs, there are two orgs that are responsible for the vast majority of the incidents in the US in recent years, the Animal Liberation Front and Earth Liberation Front, mostly involving arson and vandalism. From 1990-2005, there have been 9* terrorist incidents in the US resulting in death. 4 of those were committed by muslims. I think there is a qualitative difference between terrorism aimed at vandalism and property destruction and terrorism aimed at killing people. I know of at least one other incident after the data, the killing of an abortionist. So that puts us at 4 of 10. It's not most, but they are probably still the most likely group to be involved in a serious terrorist attack.

*This counts associated attacks as 1, so all the 9/11 attacks are grouped together.

EDIT:
I mean when he says this:

According to this data, there were more Jewish acts of terrorism within the United States than Islamic (7% vs 6%). These radical Jews committed acts of terrorism in the name of their religion. These were not terrorists who happened to be Jews; rather, they were extremist Jews who committed acts of terrorism based on their religious passions, just like Al-Qaeda and company.
Yet notice the disparity in media coverage between the two. It would indeed be very interesting to construct a corresponding pie chart that depicted the level of media coverage of each group

The reason why they don't get media attention is because they happened in before 1986.

EDIT2: Also all his links to the European data are broken... or else I would have looked at that too.

[Роберт]

There's still that "I know not all muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are muslims" thing going on.

Which are frankly just wrong.

For clarification: yes, I know.

[CorruptUser]

This is one of those cases where I wish there was some kind of prisoner exchange system. This, thing, will spend the rest of his life in the 'best' prison system in the world, Norway's, instead of rotting in some real hellhole like France's.

[legopelle]

This is one of those cases where I wish there was some kind of prisoner exchange system. This, thing, will spend the rest of his life in the 'best' prison system in the world, Norway's, instead of rotting in some real hellhole like France's.

This "thing" is a person and should be treated as such, no matter how much we might despise his ideology and actions. And whatever prison he gets locked up in, do you think the other interns are going to miss he massacred children? I don't think he's going to have good time.

[Triangle_Man]

According to MSNBC, Norwegian police have lowered the death toll on Utøya from 86 to 68.

That's a bit better than the earlier figures, but it doesn't really change the fact that he killed an insane number of youth.

This is one of those cases where I wish there was some kind of prisoner exchange system. This, thing, will spend the rest of his life in the 'best' prison system in the world, Norway's, instead of rotting in some real hellhole like France's.

This "thing" is a person and should be treated as such, no matter how much we might despise his ideology and actions.

I...kind of agree with this, although the fact that he killed 68 people is still something that bothers the crap out of me.

That and the fact that he doesn't believe that he committed a criminal act. I wonder if his lawyer will have him plead insanity.

It never ceases to amaze me the way that human beings are capable of committing these kinds of acts.

[CorruptUser]

Well, you spend a while in desperation, and you will find yourself committing things you would've sworn you would never do. Go without food for 2 weeks and then say you will never resort to cannibalism. Live on the street for a month and then say you will never resort to prostitution/crime. Counterpoint- this is Norway, the social services are a lot more generous.

Something else was probably wrong. Did he have trouble finding a girlfriend for which he blamed 'foreigners'? Perhaps he had trouble finding a satisfying job? Or maybe I'm overthinking this, and some people are just assholes.

[Lucrece]

He may be brilliant, but something obviously wasn't working well in his frame of mind. "I'm going to cook up a deeply complex and well-executed plant to massacre the children of an opposition party I find culpable for a perceived cultural decay" isn't exactly a mindset most people find themselves falling into.

Hell, there are criminals with far more awful life experiences, and somehow they didn't go to the degree of violence this guy did. I'll just say that such paranoia is not normal.

[Greyarcher]

According to MSNBC, Norwegian police have lowered the death toll on Utøya from 86 to 68.

That's a bit better than the earlier figures, but it doesn't really change the fact that he killed an insane number of youth.

It's a surprisingly high number. I'll applaud his effectiveness if nothing else.

And good on the folks who noticed what was up and took their boats out to help fleeing folks.

[Mittagessen]

Something else was probably wrong. Did he have trouble finding a girlfriend for which he blamed 'foreigners'? Perhaps he had trouble finding a satisfying job? Or maybe I'm overthinking this, and some people are just assholes.

Read his manifesto. It's all in there. I'm around a hundred pages in and have to say that while it's still batshit crazy overall it has more logical coherence and grasp of reality than almost all of the stuff I'm used to read from the far right (especially the Tea Party types). I.e. he advocates several (misogynistic) ways to increase the indigenous birth rate in Western Europe but acknowledges that those measures constitute a profound violation of human rights. By now I've come to the conclusion that only his actions set him apart from the generic right-winger and not necessarily his extremism.
On another note: He's used texts by "mainstream" Islam critics extensively. Of course they're all shocked now that something like this could've happened after decades of incitement against non-white immigration and try to dissassociate their works from his actions.

[Mother Superior]

Frankly it disgusted me when, in the absence of any evidence whatsoever, the media leapt immediately to Islamic terrorism.

Rupert Murdoch's filthy rag, along with the WSJ, was most heinously guilty for this. Al Jazeera neatly summed up the mood of the media in the chaotic few hours that followed, when none of us knew nuthin'.

I enjoyed Charlie Brooker's comments on the whole thing.

This is one of those cases where I wish there was some kind of prisoner exchange system. This, thing, will spend the rest of his life in the 'best' prison system in the world, Norway's, instead of rotting in some real hellhole like France's.

Punishment for punishment's sake is bullshit.

Its possible it plays into an ideology that isn't strictly racist* but believes different races should have their own separate countries.

Aaah, you mean racism?

[Felstaff]

I love you even if I still misbehave from time to time.

*sniffle*

[SlyReaper]

That and the fact that he doesn't believe that he committed a criminal act. I wonder if his lawyer will have him plead insanity.

Looks like he's going to try.

[Ulc]

That and the fact that he doesn't believe that he committed a criminal act. I wonder if his lawyer will have him plead insanity.

Looks like he's going to try.

Of course he's going to try, it's literally the only option left for him - it's blindingly obvious that he's guilty, and equally obvious that it is premeditated, his manifest describes that the attack has been in planning for 9 years - pleading insanity is the only route open left for him to try and reduce the sentence.

[SlyReaper]

The thing is, I'm not sure he'll agree to plead insanity. What he did was ideologically motivated, and pleading insanity would damage any credibility he thinks his cause has. It would make his actions "the work of a madman".

[podbaydoor]

Glenn Beck compared the summer camp to Hitler Youth. In a show of mind-boggling denial, several of the right-wing blogs that Breivik quoted and recommended are claiming that Muslims and liberals are to blame.

Mr. Breivik frequently cited another blog, Atlas Shrugs, and recommended the Gates of Vienna among Web sites. Pamela Geller, an outspoken critic of Islam who runs Atlas Shrugs, wrote on her blog Sunday that any assertion that she or other antijihad writers bore any responsibility for Mr. Breivik’s actions was “ridiculous.”

“If anyone incited him to violence, it was Islamic supremacists,” she wrote.

[Роберт]

It was an hour-and-a-half before an armed unit could reach the island from Oslo.

That sounds pretty slow. I guess the island was in the middle of nowhere or something?

[Deep_Thought]

It was an hour-and-a-half before an armed unit could reach the island from Oslo.

That sounds pretty slow. I guess the island was in the middle of nowhere or something?

If you take a look on Google maps you can see it's a medium distance from Oslo, and that the terrain in between is just countryside. I haven't been to Norway, but I rather get the impression that they don't regularly keep armed response units on standby in the forests.

@Felstaff: That exchange is inspiring. I don't know how mother and daughter manage to sound so calm.

@Sly/Ulc: There is a part of this idiot that wants to be a martyr. That part of him will probably relish receiving as long a sentence as possible, as it will prove his point that society is against him.

[Роберт]

It was an hour-and-a-half before an armed unit could reach the island from Oslo.

That sounds pretty slow. I guess the island was in the middle of nowhere or something?

If you take a look on Google maps you can see it's a medium distance from Oslo, and that the terrain in between is just countryside. I haven't been to Norway, but I rather get the impression that they don't regularly keep armed response units on standby in the forests.

I found in another news article:

slowed because they didn't have quick access to a helicopter and then couldn't find a boat to make their way to the scene just several hundred yards (meters) offshore.

So it's not that it took them that long to get within sight of the island, it's just they couldn't get a boat or helicopter quick enough.

[bentheimmigrant]

Surely it makes no real difference to him whether he's tried as insane or not - either way he's in a country that will treat him humanely, and either way he'll be declared too dangerous to release.

[Gellert1984]

liberals are to blame.

Of course those damn liberals are to blame! If only we had armed checkpoints every mile, Biometric ID's on a central database, regular screening for seditious or improper thoughts and neural chip implants allowing our beloved leaders to 'permanently suspend' us if we commit acts against society, this would never happen!


I really hope I dont need to add sarcasm tags to this...

[Thirty-one]

Something else was probably wrong. Did he have trouble finding a girlfriend for which he blamed 'foreigners'? Perhaps he had trouble finding a satisfying job? Or maybe I'm overthinking this, and some people are just assholes.

Read his manifesto. It's all in there. I'm around a hundred pages in and have to say that while it's still batshit crazy overall it has more logical coherence and grasp of reality than almost all of the stuff I'm used to read from the far right (especially the Tea Party types). I.e. he advocates several (misogynistic) ways to increase the indigenous birth rate in Western Europe but acknowledges that those measures constitute a profound violation of human rights. By now I've come to the conclusion that only his actions set him apart from the generic right-winger and not necessarily his extremism.
On another note: He's used texts by "mainstream" Islam critics extensively. Of course they're all shocked now that something like this could've happened after decades of incitement against non-white immigration and try to dissassociate their works from his actions.

It's hard to say how much of the somewhat coherent stuff is his though. He's reported to have lifted a lot of stuff from both the Unabomber and some extreme right writer calling himself "Fjordman".
I'm also unsure how logically coherent it is to on one hand claim the people are oppressed by an elite of "cultural marxists", but that democracy as an option is out because "anti-immigration parties will likely never get more than 35% of the vote in elections". At best he's confusing the word elite with the word majority.
The diary has quite a different form from the other stuff, including a lot of smileys and LOLs.
From the description he gives of his family, he seems rather ashamed of them all, something that partly seems to stem from his earlier Muslim friend's view on how westerners (and their women) behave.

More so than intelligent he comes off as incredibly willing to grind to me. Sort of dumb, but dedicated.