Explosion in Oslo

[curtis95112]

It seems the gunman had quite a bit of time before the people outside realized something was wrong and convinced the police to get there... Shit

Lots of people are wounded and I bet there are some victims underwater (He shot at people trying to swim to safety, the bastard) that haven't yet been found yet. The body count is going to keep rising.. Possibly into the triple digits.

On a brighter note, some awesome people lived near the island. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356

[el_loco_avs]

I remember it being mentioned that it took armed police about a half hour to get to the island.

Kids man.

[CorruptUser]

What about the people that survived? Quite sure at the very least, they will never inherently trust a man in police uniform. There is a reason impersonating a police officer is a felony.

[Felstaff]

... Every thread like this ends up with massively inflated figures after a few hours or so. Let's hope not

85+7 so far. That's horrific. I'm so sad.

[legopelle]

... Every thread like this ends up with massively inflated figures after a few hours or so. Let's hope not

85+7 so far. That's horrific. I'm so sad.

I hate you being right all the time.

[teacupdk]

Lots of people are wounded and I bet there are some victims underwater (He shot at people trying to swim to safety, the bastard) that haven't yet been found yet. The body count is going to keep rising.. Possibly into the triple digits. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356

Danish news told me that 4-5 people were still missing, so I hope we don't reach triple digit. I truly hope we don't have to hear the death toll rise much more.

[Thirty-one]

Haven't read any of it, but apparently he released a 1400 pages or so manifesto.. so if anyone want to peek into this moron's mind, there's your chance.

[aoeu]

Haven't read any of it, but apparently he released a 1400 pages or so manifesto.. so if anyone want to peek into this moron's mind, there's your chance.

I hope nobody will be too offended if I post the intro. It really makes his motives clear.

Spoiler:

About the compendium - 2083


“The men the European public admires most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth.”



You can see a movie presentation of the compendium by visiting the below links. It will not be available for a long period so consider taking a backup copy of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQOfH8Dj1mw
http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21123164bZCBQeZ8

After years of work the first edition of the compendium “2083 – A European Declaration of Independence” is completed. If you have received this book, you are either one of my former 7000 patriotic Facebook friends or you are the friend of one of my FB friends. If you are concerned about the future of Western Europe you will definitely find the information both interesting and highly relevant.

I have spent several years writing, researching and compiling the information and I have spent most of my hard earned funds in this process (in excess of 300 000 Euros). I do not want any compensation for it as it is a gift to you, as a fellow patriot.

Much of the information presented in this compendium (3 books) has been deliberately kept away from the European peoples by our governments and the ...Hold on, I think I swallowed a gerbil. Okay. What was I saying? mainstream media (MSM). More than 90% of the EU and national parliamentarians and more than 95% of journalists are supporters of European multiculturalism and therefore supporters of the ongoing Islamic colonisation of Europe; yet, they DO NOT have the permission of the European peoples to implement these doctrines.

The compendium, - “2083 – A European Declaration of Independence” - documents through more than 1000 pages that the fear of Islamisation is all but irrational.

It covers the following main topics:


1. The rise of cultural Marxism/multiculturalism in Western Europe

2. Why the Islamic colonization and Islamisation of Western Europe began

3. The current state of the Western European Resistance Movements (anti-Marxist/anti-Jihad movements)

4. Solutions for Western Europe and how we, the resistance, should move forward in the coming decades

5. + Covering all, highly relevant topics including solutions and strategies for all of the 8 different political fronts


The compendium/book presents advanced ideological, practical, tactical, organisational and rhetorical solutions and strategies for all patriotic-minded individuals/movements. The book will be of great interest to you whether you are a moderate or a more dedicated cultural conservative/nationalist.

Included are also demographical studies, historical statistics, forecasts and insights on various subjects related to the ongoing and future struggle of Europe. It covers most topics related to historical events and aspects of past and current Islamic Imperialism, which is now removed or falsified by our academia by instruction of Western Europe’s cultural relativist elites (cultural relativism=cultural Marxism). It offers thorough analysis of Islam, which is unknown to a majority of Europeans. It documents how the political doctrines known as multiculturalism/cultural Marxism/cultural relativism was created and implemented. Multiculturalists/cultural Marxists usually operate under the disguise of humanism. A majority are anti-nationalists and want to deconstruct European identity, traditions, culture and even nation states.

As we all know, the root of Europe's problems is the lack of cultural self-confidence (nationalism). Most people are still terrified of nationalistic political doctrines thinking that if we ever embrace these principles again, new “Hitler’s” will suddenly pop up and initiate global Armageddon... Needless to say; the growing numbers of nationalists in W. Europe are systematically being ridiculed, silenced and persecuted by the current cultural Marxist/multiculturalist political establishments. This has been a continuous ongoing process which started in 1945. This irrational fear of nationalistic doctrines is preventing us from stopping our own national/cultural suicide as the Islamic colonization is increasing annually. This book presents the only solutions to our current problems.

You cannot defeat Islamisation or halt/reverse the Islamic colonization of Western Europe without first removing the political doctrines manifested through multiculturalism/cultural Marxism…

I have written approximately half of the compendium myself. The rest is a compilation of works from several courageous individuals throughout the world. I originally planned to add a database of high quality graphic illustrations and pictures. However, the document (file) would have been un-practically large which would complicate the process of efficient distribution.


Distribution of the book

The content of the compendium truly belongs to everyone and is free to be distributed in any way or form. In fact, I ask only one favour of you; I ask that you distribute this book to everyone you know. Please do not think that others will take care of it. Sorry to be blunt, but it does not work out that way. If we, the Western European Resistance, fail or become apathetic, then Western Europe will fall, and your freedom and our children’s freedom with it… It is essential and very important that everyone is at least presented with the truth before our systems come crashing down within 2 to 7 decades. So again, I humbly ask you to re-distribute the book to as many patriotic minded individuals as you can. I am 100% certain that the distribution of this compendium to a large portion of European patriots will contribute to ensure our victory in the end. Because within these three books lies the tools required to win the ongoing Western European cultural war.

As already mentioned; the compendium is a compilation of works from multiple courageous individuals throughout the world. I have spent more than three years writing and/or compiling most of the content. None of the other authors have been asked to participate in this project due to practical and security reasons but most of them have made their material available for distribution. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. This is the reason why I have decided to allow the content of this compendium to be freely redistributed and translated. Consider it my personal gift and contribution to all Europeans. The sources are not embedded into the document for this reason (easier to use and distribute the various articles). However, it is required that the author(s) are credited when the material is used.

As such, the intellectual property of this compendium belongs to all Europeans across the European world and can be distributed and translated without limitations. Efficient distribution and circulation will be possible if those who agree with at least some of its content, principles or ideas contribute to spread the information. If you are reading this you will know that many people will be interested in obtaining the compendium (3 books). Let’s use this momentum to our advantage as it will surely benefit our struggle.

I’m depending on you to distribute the book or some/all of its content to as many patriotic European political activists as possible. Let them know what is going on and what is required of each and every one of us. After all, we do not only have a right to resist the current development, it is our duty as Europeans to prevent the annihilation of our identities, our cultures and traditions and our nation states! Please contribute to distribute the compendium to as many patriotic minded Europeans as humanly possible in all 26 European countries. This is only be the beginning…!

By including the “legal disclaimer” in ”Book 3; ” will allow everyone to distribute the content without violating any European laws. If you are still in doubt feel free to delete or change the wording in certain chapters before distribution.

Please help to make this book available through various torrents, blogs, websites, on Facebook, on Twitter, on forums and through other arenas. It is truly a one-of-a-kind, unique and great tool that can and should be used by all cultural conservatives in the decades to come.


Priority objective - translating the book to German, French and Spanish.

I highly recommend that especially a French, German and Spanish patriot takes responsibility and ensures that this compendium is either distributed and/or translated to your respective language. It should be distributed to torrents, websites, Facebook groups and other political groups where there are high concentrations of cultural conservatives/nationalists/patriots. I have been unsuccessful to efficiently distribute the compendium to especially French, German and Spanish speaking individuals due to language barriers. It is therefore essential that someone steps up and takes responsibility to distribute it to as many as humanly possible. If you, yourself, are too busy, unavailable or unable to contribute to help translate it, please do contact one of many cultural conservative/nationalist intellectuals/writers/journalists in your country. Contact individuals you know who are not afraid to operate outside the boundaries of AAAHHHH THUMPY WOOBLE HARRRRRPINK!!. We, the right wing Resistance Movements of Europe depend on efficient re-distribution of this vital information included in this compendium. The efficient distribution of this book to all nationalists of Europe may significantly contribute to future regime shifts. Because within this compendium lies the tools and knowledge on exactly how to replace our current regimes. I really hope someone will accept this very important task and contribute; because if you won’t, no one will...


Extracting info from the document or convert from a Word file to a PDF file + translation service

It’s easy to convert the document from a Word file to a PDF file or any other format providing you have the Microsoft Word/Office software (preferably Word 2007 or newer). If you do not have this software you can either download the free “Word Viewer” which allows you to view, print and copy Word documents, even if you don’t have Word installed. Just do a search for the key word “Word Viewer” at the following site: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads or use the following direct download link:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/deta ... f827f20cac

You can also just buy the full Office package or download a free trial from the Microsoft site: http://office.microsoft.com or alternatively, go to one of the following torrent sites to download it for free:

1. thepiratebay.org
3. torrentreactor.net
5. torrentz.com
2. btscene.com
4. extratorrent.com
6. btmon.com

You must first download a torrent application. The best torrent application (uTorrent) can be downloaded here: http://www.utorrent.com If you want Word 2007 for longer than the 60 day trial it is likely you will have to download a serial code which allows you to unlock the software permanently or at least extend the trial period for 6-12 months.

I chose to send the compendium as a Word file for the following reason:

1. MS Word is one of the most common and popular software formats
2. Significantly easier to edit the document compared to PDF
3. A Word file is significantly smaller than a PDF file (3,5 MB vs 8-10 MB)
4. The quality of the images are conserved a lot better than in a PDF
5. Distribution: it is easier to avoid spam filters with a file smaller than 5 MB

Since I have chosen to send the document in Word format you can easily extract all information and the images from the Word file. I deliberately avoided locking the document for this reason. If you want to extract the images from word you can do the following:

1. Simply open MS Paint (standard Windows program), copy the image from Word and paste it in Paint. You then save the image in Paint as a jpg or any other format.

It is easy to convert the file, if desired, to a PDF file or any other format. Simply save the Word file as a PDF file. As for extraction from a PDF file; several software programs including newer versions of Adobe Acrobat allow conversion and extraction. Just google the word; “PDF to Word converter” or download the following free converter software: http://www.hellopdf.com/download.php

As for a free and powerful translator service; the google translation service offers a powerful and relatively accurate tool: http://translate.google.com


Display using kindle/nook/iPad

Kindle, nook or iPad is a hardware platform (LCD board) very suitable for reading e-books and other digital media. It costs as little as 100-200 USD on the second hand market. Also, there are other hand held devices like iPhone. All you have to do is select Word as input and kindle/nook/iPad/iPhone as output and transfer the file.


Converting the Word file to paper

Successful self-publishers today leverage the benefits provided by print-on-demand services, where they don’t need to waste money on printing costs or on inventory and stocking fees.

A “print-on-demand” (POD) service, sometimes called publish-on-demand, is a printing technology and business process in which new copies of a book are not printed until an order has been received. Many traditional small presses have replaced their traditional printing equipment with POD equipment or contract their printing out to POD providers.

When customers order their books, self-publishing outlets like Cafepress.com and others (see list) will print on-demand as many book as needed and they will also ship them and get payments for them from those ordering. These self-publishing services accept uploaded digital content such as Word or PDF files. However, due to the controversial nature of the content of this book, the individual that makes the initial arrangement has to be careful and may need to cut away certain chapters before using commercial services such as these.

Self publishing services/books on demand services:

lulu.com
xlibris.com
authorhouse.co.uk
unibook.com
createspace.com
webook.com
spirepublishing.com
createbooks.com
cafepress.co.uk
selfpublishing.com
trafford.com
booksurge.com
booksondemand.com
infinitypublishing.com
lightningsource.com
blurb.com

Guide to self publishing:

http://www.masternewmedia.org/self-publ ... -services/

Intro to e-book format:

http://toc.oreilly.com/2008/04/ebook-format-primer.html


Sacrifices made when creating the compendium

I’ve spent a total of 9 years of my life working on this project. The first five years were spent studying and creating a financial base, and the last three years was spent working full time with research, compilation and writing. Creating this compendium has personally cost me a total of 317 000 Euros (130 000 Euros spent from my own pocket and 187 500 Euros for loss of income during three years). All that, however, is barely noticeable compared to the sacrifices made in relation to the distribution of this book, the actual marketing operation;)

The importance of spreading the truth and distribute sound strategies cannot be underestimated as it is at the very core of our current resistance efforts. I do hope you take the time to read it. Several aspects of the work is truly unique and no similar compendium exists today. Don’t let the topics discussed in the books startle you too much. Many of the topics may seem completely absurd or too radical today, but in a couple of decades, you will start to understand its relevancy to our struggle. Nevertheless, if the content freaks you out too much, to a degree where you want to delete it, I would highly recommend you rather save it on a USB flash drive (small memory chip) and place the chip in a safe location. Because it is likely that you will want to read it at some point in time. After all, we can only ignore central aspects of reality for so long.


A message from the author/creator of the compendium

I hope you enjoy this compendium. It currently offers the most comprehensive database of solution oriented subjects. As mentioned, I only ask one thing from you; that you distribute this book to your friends and ask them to forward it to “their” friends, especially to individuals who have a patriotic mindset. Please help us and help yourself, your family and friends by contributing to spread the tools which will ensure our victory; for the truth must be known... It is not only our right but also our duty to contribute to preserve our identity, our culture and our national sovereignty by preventing the ongoing Islamisation. There is no Resistance Movement if individuals like us refuse to contribute...

Multiculturalism (cultural Marxism/AAAHHHH THUMPY WOOBLE HARRRRRPINK!!), as you might know, is the root cause of the ongoing Islamisation of Europe which has resulted in the ongoing Islamic colonisation of Europe through demographic warfare (facilitated by our own leaders). This compendium presents the solutions and explains exactly what is required of each and every one of us in the coming decades. Everyone can and should contribute in one way or the other; it’s just a matter of will.

Time is of the essence. We have only a few decades to consolidate a sufficient level of resistance before our major cities are completely demographically overwhelmed by Muslims. Ensuring the successful distribution of this compendium to as many Europeans as humanly possible will significantly contribute to our success. It may be the only way to avoid our present and future dhimmitude (enslavement) under Islamic majority rule in our own countries.

I have been unable to send this compendium to many people, for various reasons, so I truly hope you will be willing to contribute.

It should be noted that English is my secondary language and due to certain security precautions I was unable to have the documents professionally edited and proof read. Needless to say, there is a potential for improving it literarily. As such, consider it a ”first edition draft”. The responsibility falls upon you now as I will, for obvious reasons, not be able to develop it any further.

Any and all individuals with the appropriate skills are encouraged to contribute to a second edition of this compendium by improving and expanding it where needed.



Sincere and patriotic regards,

Andrew Berwick, London, England - 2011

Justiciar Knight Commander for Knights Templar Europe and one of several leaders of the National and pan-European Patriotic Resistance Movement

With the assistance from brothers and sisters in England, France, Germany, Sweden, Austria, Italy, Spain, Finland, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, the US etc.

[LtNOWIS]

It looks like the "marketing operation" he refers to in there is the attack, which is absolutely ghastly.

[hrabanus]

I hope nobody will be too offended if I post the intro. It really makes his motives clear.

Spoiler:

About the compendium - 2083

...

Imagine the association fallacy were no fallacy. That would be nice.

[Jahoclave]

You know, I do hope that the fact he went through and did, from what you posted, a decent attempt at putting together research, however fallacious his conclusions, demonstrates to people that he was not a crazy madman, and in fact a rational person acting on a dangerous ideology.

[addams]

Too horrible for words. Still have friends missing, they've started identification of those killed but no info released yet so it's still quite chaotic. Definitely a time to keep our heads cool and our hearts warm. Anyone in the Oslo area with 0- blood type, go donate blood asap!

Cool heads and warm hearts. You have earned your reputation for being sane. Thank you.

[cjmcjmcjmcjm]

Anyone in the Oslo area with 0- blood type, go donate blood asap!

Too bad I'm in the other hemisphere and an B+. I do hope the death toll doesn't rise any more than it already has. I didn't read through the (posted portion of the) manifesto (too long and not worth getting that ticked off before bed). Are there any interesting bits in it?

[Jahoclave]

Anyone in the Oslo area with 0- blood type, go donate blood asap!

Too bad I'm in the other hemisphere and an B+. I do hope the death toll doesn't rise any more than it already has. I didn't read through the (posted portion of the) manifesto (too long and not worth getting that ticked off before bed). Are there any interesting bits in it?

His section on stripping women of their rights is a fascinating look at somebody trying to rationalize the fact that he doesn't really have anything against women so long as they pop out babies. I think he forgot the bullet point of giving them medals.

[Thadlerian]

I'm still not sure whether it's a good thing that people read his manifesto.

On the one hand, it seems likely to many of us that he did what he did to get attention to his political message. It would be a victory for him to have people download his stuff.

On the other hand, I think we should know our enemy. The gunman is not a marginal Neonazi, and I'm not satisfied with labeling him a madman. His uniqueness lies in his violent actions, not in his opinions. Xenophobia, treason accusations against the government, hostility towards non-Westerners - these things have been visible for several years on Norwegian web sites, including most/all major web newspaper forums.

But how much of this is compatible with actual terrorism? These opinions surely create a hateful and potentially harmful environment for non-whites, but would they actually kill people in planned attacks? It seems hard to imagine.

People of this political division - are they individuals with social power, or just loners with computers?

Then again, I have little doubt that if these sentiments go mainstream, and we get hit by a major natural resource crisis (not just financial), there will be nothing stopping us from reverting to the 1930s.

Ideally, we should be able to read his manifesto and, in disgust, reject every single word of it. But I don't know if I trust people that much.

[buddy431]

It's incredible how well planned and carried out this was. It seems like most people who try to pull a stunt like this get caught up in the excitement, and don't end up doing as much damage as they maybe intended to. He sets up "farm" so he can buy fertilizer without raising suspicion (the right type of fertilizer - I'm looking at you, Mr. Times Square wannabe bomber). He has the forethought to dress up as a policeman, and appears to have been able to trick people with it, even after he started shooting. Hell, his manifesto even has instructions on various ways to obtain Microsoft Word so that the document can be read (including instructions on pirating it), and how to convert it to a PDF or even get a self-publishing service to print you a copy.

It's also morbidly fascinating how much detail he goes into planning and executing this. I've just skimmed some of his manifesto, but he gives very detailed steps for how he made his various explosives and primers (as a chemistry major, I find this pretty interesting). He also gives advice on how to raise funds for your own "operations".

Anyways, as wrong as it sounds, in a twisted sort of way I admire this guy, not for what he did, but for how well he did it.

Edit: Absolutely brilliant and believable cover, so that you won't raise suspicion when you seclude yourself for a long period of time for planning: Admit that you've become addicted to World of Warcraft

Spoiler:

F example, tell them that you have started to play World of Warcraft or any other online MMO game and that you wish to focus on this for the next months/year. This ”new project” can justify isolation and people will understand somewhat why you are not answering your phone over long periods. Tell them that you are completely hooked on the game (raiding dungeons etc). Emphasise to them that this is a dream you have had since you were a kid. If they stress you, insist and ask them to respect your decision. You will be amazed on how much you can do undetected while blaming this game. If your planning requires you to travel, say that you are visiting one of your WoW friends, or better yet, a girl from your ”guild” (who lives in another country). No further questions will be raised if you present these arguments.

Or even better, confide that you think you're gay, and are ashamed, and don't want anyone to know.

Spoiler:

Long term covers:


• Say you play WoW (World of Warcraft) or another MMO and have developed an addiction for it. Say that are going to play hardcore for the rest of the year and it is no point trying to convince you otherwise. Inform them that you will be busy doing that in the future etc. Tell them that you are ashamed of it and you don’t want to talk any more about it. Make them swear to not tell anyone! (you just effectively prevented any more questions from that person AND made the individual assist you in protecting your cover from everyone else)

• Say you think you are gay and are in the process of discovering your new self and that you don’t want to talk any more about this issue. Tell them that you are ashamed of it and you don’t want to talk any more about it. Make them swear to not tell anyone! (your ego is likely to take a dent unless you are secure in your own heterosexuality, because they will actually believe you are gay. However, it’s an extremely effective strategy for stopping questions and prevent people from digging in your life when you don’t want them to.

It's nice that you're planning your future crimes in public where the police can find it, but it's probably not appropriate for this thread. -Hawk

[Lucrece]

Well, at least we could keep his picture next time we update encyclopedias and dictionaries for the word "perverse". I get shivers just thinking about the victims and how they came to the realization of their situation.

[jestingrabbit]

Anyone in the Oslo area with 0- blood type, go donate blood asap!

Too bad I'm in the other hemisphere and an B+. I do hope the death toll doesn't rise any more than it already has. I didn't read through the (posted portion of the) manifesto (too long and not worth getting that ticked off before bed). Are there any interesting bits in it?

His section on stripping women of their rights is a fascinating look at somebody trying to rationalize the fact that he doesn't really have anything against women so long as they pop out babies. I think he forgot the bullet point of giving them medals.

Its all copy pasta. For instance "2.10 Feminism Leads to the Oppression of Women" is copied holus-bolus from a guy called fjordman, a rightwing blogger.

This is the laziest possible manifesto from an incredibly privileged idiot.

The gunman is not a marginal Neonazi

I'm sorry, but that's exactly what this guy is.

[Mother Superior]

My respect for the Norwegian prime minister has soared after he said this; "Svaret på vold er enda mer demokrati, enda mer åpenhet, men aldri naivitet. Det skylder vi ofrene." In english; "The answer to violence is even more democracy, even more openness, but never naivete. We owe the victims this." In the face of what has just happened, that is an incredible thing to say, and an even more incredible thing to hold to. Go Norway.

[curtis95112]

My respect for the Norwegian prime minister has soared after he said this; "Svaret på vold er enda mer demokrati, enda mer åpenhet, men aldri naivitet. Det skylder vi ofrene." In english; "The answer to violence is even more democracy, even more openness, but never naivete. We owe the victims this." In the face of what has just happened, that is an incredible thing to say, and an even more incredible thing to hold to. Go Norway.

Go Norway.
I completely agree with him. The answer to lunatic ideals is exposing them to the full light of day and showing people just how lunatic they are.

[Thirty-one]

My respect for the Norwegian prime minister has soared after he said this; "Svaret på vold er enda mer demokrati, enda mer åpenhet, men aldri naivitet. Det skylder vi ofrene." In english; "The answer to violence is even more democracy, even more openness, but never naivete. We owe the victims this." In the face of what has just happened, that is an incredible thing to say, and an even more incredible thing to hold to. Go Norway.

I find that he's handled the whole thing pretty well too. I'm glad he focused on the victims and us trying to keep our society as before to the extent that we can, instead of focusing in the perpetrator.

Ideally, we should be able to read his manifesto and, in disgust, reject every single word of it. But I don't know if I trust people that much.

Having it already be associated with the worst killer in modern Norwegian history might help most people reject it in disgust, I'd think.

If that doesn't work, then hopefully people will find it hard to admire a person who doesn't even know that the hungry crocodile eats the larger number.

It will f example make it hard to properly detonate smaller charges of the fertilizer (>50 kg). This forces the handler to use larger amounts of fertilizer (<100 kg) and use larger boosters.

[Yakk]

The gunman is not a marginal Neonazi

See, I'm confused.

He holds that people can be, effectively, race-traitors (which is the Nazi party-line). He demonizes humanists, cultural relativists, and people who allow immigrants in with one brush, calling them Marxists (the enemy of the Nazi party as well). He picks out one demographic (Muslims in this case -- Jews in the case of the Nazis) to be the primary focus of enmity. His position is that people should sacrifice and work for the greater glory of the state and race.

After expelling the "unclean" people out of the area he considers "special" (Western Europe), how is it not consistent with his views to want to engage in imperialist/colonial expansion over areas that other people are in -- generating some "living space" in which his chosen area can have a self-contained economy. And given his willingness to slaughter people based on their being "race traitors", I doubt he'd be opposed to mass murder/deportation/demographic warfare of the people who are living in the areas where he would covet. Do you see signs or words in the manifesto that are inconsistent with this interpretation?

By any chance, is he anti-labour union? I'd bet he is. (This is just flavour really -- the Nazis opposed labour unions as being an alternative source of political power, in my opinion.)

The above is pretty much a checklist of the Nazi party ideology.

Now, my analysis could be wrong -- is there an observation above that isn't in line with his ideology?

Or is there another reason why his ideology isn't a new Nazi-style one?

[Glass Fractal]

I think the key word was supposed to be "marginal" not "Nazi".

[aoeu]

The gunman is not a marginal Neonazi

See, I'm confused.

He holds that people can be, effectively, race-traitors (which is the Nazi party-line). He demonizes humanists, cultural relativists, and people who allow immigrants in with one brush, calling them Marxists (the enemy of the Nazi party as well). He picks out one demographic (Muslims in this case -- Jews in the case of the Nazis) to be the primary focus of enmity. His position is that people should sacrifice and work for the greater glory of the state and race.

After expelling the "unclean" people out of the area he considers "special" (Western Europe), how is it not consistent with his views to want to engage in imperialist/colonial expansion over areas that other people are in -- generating some "living space" in which his chosen area can have a self-contained economy. And given his willingness to slaughter people based on their being "race traitors", I doubt he'd be opposed to mass murder/deportation/demographic warfare of the people who are living in the areas where he would covet. Do you see signs or words in the manifesto that are inconsistent with this interpretation?

By any chance, is he anti-labour union? I'd bet he is. (This is just flavour really -- the Nazis opposed labour unions as being an alternative source of political power, in my opinion.)

The above is pretty much a checklist of the Nazi party ideology.

Now, my analysis could be wrong -- is there an observation above that isn't in line with his ideology?

Or is there another reason why his ideology isn't a new Nazi-style one?

I think he believes in democracy more than the Nazis.

[Mother Superior]

The gunman is not a marginal Neonazi

See, I'm confused.

He holds that people can be, effectively, race-traitors (which is the Nazi party-line). He demonizes humanists, cultural relativists, and people who allow immigrants in with one brush, calling them Marxists (the enemy of the Nazi party as well). He picks out one demographic (Muslims in this case -- Jews in the case of the Nazis) to be the primary focus of enmity. His position is that people should sacrifice and work for the greater glory of the state and race.

After expelling the "unclean" people out of the area he considers "special" (Western Europe), how is it not consistent with his views to want to engage in imperialist/colonial expansion over areas that other people are in -- generating some "living space" in which his chosen area can have a self-contained economy. And given his willingness to slaughter people based on their being "race traitors", I doubt he'd be opposed to mass murder/deportation/demographic warfare of the people who are living in the areas where he would covet. Do you see signs or words in the manifesto that are inconsistent with this interpretation?

By any chance, is he anti-labour union? I'd bet he is. (This is just flavour really -- the Nazis opposed labour unions as being an alternative source of political power, in my opinion.)

The above is pretty much a checklist of the Nazi party ideology.

Now, my analysis could be wrong -- is there an observation above that isn't in line with his ideology?

Or is there another reason why his ideology isn't a new Nazi-style one?

I think he believes in democracy more than the Nazis.

Really? Cause, you know, promoting your ideas through violence is kind of non-democratic.

[curtis95112]

The gunman is not a marginal Neonazi

~snip~
Or is there another reason why his ideology isn't a new Nazi-style one?

I think he believes in democracy more than the Nazis.

Really? Cause, you know, promoting your ideas through violence is kind of non-democratic.

I don't think his ideologies were necessarily consistent.

[Mother Superior]

The gunman is not a marginal Neonazi

~snip~
Or is there another reason why his ideology isn't a new Nazi-style one?

I think he believes in democracy more than the Nazis.

Really? Cause, you know, promoting your ideas through violence is kind of non-democratic.

I don't think his ideologies were necessarily consistent.

Neither were Nazi germany's.

[Newt]

"The answer to violence is even more democracy, even more openness, but never naivete. We owe the victims this." [/i]In the face of what has just happened, that is an incredible thing to say, and an even more incredible thing to hold to. Go Norway.

I'm not sure what that means, though-it's unclear to me how more democracy and openness would have helped(or what "more" democracy and openness means, in terms of policy), or will help in the future. If anything, this atrocity in such a generally mellow country illustrates, unfortunately, that you can't extirpate violent, psychopathic behavior.

He appears to have the generic delusion of most lone (and relatively sane) radicals(or small radical groups); that his violent actions will serve as a "wake-up call" for some group to take up resistance against some sort of perceived corruption or oppression. It is, of course, completely nonsensical to believe that shooting a bunch of teenagers will result in a Norwegian movement to cast out immigrants( as I suspect most neo-nazis would recognize), just as it isn't clear why Ted Kaczynsky thought sending out mail bombs would have any noticeable effect on the advancement of technology/industrialization.

[Yakk]

I think he believes in democracy more than the Nazis.

I'd like a citation for that.

(Nazis where willing to use democracy until it no longer suited them.)

[CorruptUser]

I don't see anything where he was claiming genetic fitness and racial hygiene, strict government controls over the economy, and all that. He's more right-wing extremist than national-socialist.

[johnny_7713]

The gunman is not a marginal Neonazi

See, I'm confused.
<Comparison between killer's ideology and Nazism>

The key word in Thadlerian's statement is indeed 'marginal' and not Neonazi. Going 'oh it was just some nutjob' is too easy. It ignores the fact that ordinary 'people like us' can be driven to commit atrocities like this. For the same reason I dislike it when people refer to the real Nazis as 'monsters' rather than humans. The most important lesson of that period of history is that the Nazis weren't monsters, they were ordinary humans just like us, who loved their families and were probably pretty decent people in daily life. Yet even so they were able to construct for themselves a system of morality in which they could slaughter fellow human beings simply on basis of their decent without a second thought. Until we accept that ordinary human beings just like us are capable of that, and not just some dehumanised 'monsters' we will always be at risk of those events happening again.

[buddy431]

It's nice that you're planning your future crimes in public where the police can find it, but it's probably not appropriate for this thread. -Hawk

Sorry, it was late when I wrote that. I realize that attempts at humor are not really an appropriate response for a tragedy like this.

I do think that reading the Manifesto reinforces johnny_7713's point - this guy is not a monster, he's an ordinary human who has built an ideology for himself (or rather, taken pieces of ideology from others and mashed them together) that justifies his horrible actions. In his personal life, he seems like a nice enough guy; he likes to party a bit, wears nice clothes because he likes to look sharp, plays video games, and uses all too many emoticons. And yet, despite this, despite (at least appearing, I am not a doctor) to be fully mentally competent, he has convinced himself that it is perfectly justifiable to kill innocent people to advance his cause. Luckily, most people don't convince themselves of this, but it is clear in his manifesto how someone holding strong beliefs (any beliefs, not just white supremacists) can fairly easily come to view violence as an acceptable, even necessary course of action.

How do you counter this type of "home grown" radicalization? I guess you can try to limit the access to the means of carrying out violence (Breivik complained that explosives like ammonium nitrate, and precursors to explosives were getting harder to obtain), but how do you prevent this type of violent ideology from forming? In any multicultural society, there are going to be tensions. If you work too hard accommodating one group, you risk alienating others (in fact, I would say Norway has done a relatively good job at dealing with its immigration and ethnic relations, and this still happened). I guess sometimes there are not easy solutions.

[Jahoclave]

I don't see anything where he was claiming genetic fitness and racial hygiene, strict government controls over the economy, and all that. He's more right-wing extremist than national-socialist.

It also has to do with a particular animus and perceived fear of losing their culture to Islamic immigrants that is going about Europe. So he's also responding to a different historical condition than the NAZIs were as well. See things like the Swiss minaret ban and all the shit in France about headscarves.

In fact, marginal is probably a better description than neonazi--in that it's a better description of how he feels. Much like the Tea Party in the states, he seems to feel marginalized and has a deep seated fear that his essentialist identity for Europe is under attack. He doesn't see the media covering addressing his concerns and, in fact, quite the opposite, promoting ideas that run counter to his identity. So he feels marginalized, disempowered, and that his identity is under threat. Combine those feelings together, throw in economic strife, and you've got a recipe for fundamentalism across the board. Terry Eagleton has a really good quote about that, but I left the book in the office, then again, he's in England and closer to the culture, but America does have its unique version in the Christian Right, and everybody has their favorite hyperbolic version in Islamic fundamentalism.

The problem is, we're trying to place him within old labels that don't necessarily fit modern times. One can be a nationalist and a racist and not be a Nazi. The U.S. has a large segment of its population who does that on a daily basis.

How do you counter this type of "home grown" radicalization?

Deal with the ideology. He has a 1400 page manifesto of being completely fucking wrong. What helps, showing how completely fucking wrong he is, even about the fact that he feels his identity under threat. It helps limit the spread of the ideology and people adopting it. So, education helps.

[LtNOWIS]

Or is there another reason why his ideology isn't a new Nazi-style one?

He's pro-Israel. Neo-Nazis disown him for that.

Of course, the new thing in far-right European nationalist movements is to be against Muslims instead of being against Jews, so traditional neo-Nazis are being left behind.

[Grave]

So I was reading about this on the BBC site and came across this quote in this article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14266815

Mr Sponheim confirmed that the maximum time Mr Breivik could face in prison under Norwegian law is 21 years.

Does Norway not have a life sentence or something? Because I'd expect the punishment in just about any legal system for something like this to be basically forever.

[Thirty-one]

So I was reading about this on the BBC site and came across this quote in this article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14266815

Mr Sponheim confirmed that the maximum time Mr Breivik could face in prison under Norwegian law is 21 years.

Does Norway not have a life sentence or something? Because I'd expect the punishment in just about any legal system for something like this to be basically forever.

They'll likely, if they consider him sane, give him "forvaring". That opens up the option of extending his sentence by five years at a time, every time it runs out. Likely he'll sit 21+5+5+5+5+5+5+.. until we're rid of him.

[Technical Ben]

Jahoclave I will repeat a common famous quote.
"We need to win hearts and minds."
At the very least, we can help those who need it now the most. Those in Oslo.

[Mittagessen]

Or is there another reason why his ideology isn't a new Nazi-style one?

He's pro-Israel. Neo-Nazis disown him for that.

Of course, the new thing in far-right European nationalist movements is to be against Muslims instead of being against Jews, so traditional neo-Nazis are being left behind.

That's actually wrong. At least here in Germany there are Nazis that have no antipathy against Jews (or any other peoples) as long as they keep in their respective countries. I've been at Nazi protests (to counter-protest and blockade and stuff) where both sides were waving the flag of Israel. It's certainly the exception, but currently the whole extreme right-wing AND Nazi scene is more hung up on Muslims and so-called criminal immigrants than the conspiracy by Jewish bankers to take over the world.

It also has to do with a particular animus and perceived fear of losing their culture to Islamic immigrants that is going about Europe. So he's also responding to a different historical condition than the NAZIs were as well. See things like the Swiss minaret ban and all the shit in France about headscarves.

France and Switzerland are the least of our right-wing radicalization worries. Hungary has essentially become a fascist dictatorship with brownshirts rounding up Roma, anybody even remotely left-wing being kicked out of government positions and universities; the whole shebang. Italy and Romania are only marginally better in their treatment of Roma. The Netherlands have made a worrying turn to the right with the PVV keeping the government in power; the government of Denmark has just reintroduced border controls to keep their ultra-right-wing party happy; in Finland the "True Finns" have just come to power and in Germany the fascist Thilo Sarrazin doesn't even get kicked out of the social democratic party for claiming people of Turkish descent are inherently less intelligent than native Germans.

[Thadlerian]

The gunman is not a marginal Neonazi

I'm sorry, but that's exactly what this guy is.

According to Lars Gule, a prominent Norwegian academic who reports having been in discussion with Breivik on the site Document.no earlier (the place is a cesspit of xenophobia, all credit to Gule for going there to try to talk some sense), he's no Neonazi. I don't know how to operate Google translate, and am sitting on rather limited web access, but it shouldn't be too difficult getting this page through: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4181274.ece.

In short: Breivik condemns Nazism, Marxism and Islam equally in his discussions.

Extreme-right is not equal to Neonazi, there are many foul flavours. The difference is, right now, not very interesting - their actions and ideas are on the same level of reprehensibility. But for the sake of clarity, we should be aware of the distinction. It does a constructive discussion no good to bunch different ideologies together, just for the sake of proving the genuineness of our anger.

There's been some discussion of my use of "marginal Neonazi" and which word I intended to emphasize. I emphasize them both. The intended message was that I regard Neonazis to be a marginal faction in the Norwegian (and Western) political landscape. Being ideological descendants of those who ravaged Europe some 70 years past, no one in their right mind would want to be associated with them. They're taboo, universally accepted targets (consider the vast amounts of popular culture using Nazis as stock villains).

This is why I see the distinction as significant. The Neonazis are illegitimate. The political branch Breivik is associated with was, as of July 22nd, not. He is the utmost-extreme little twig of a large and complex branch (of whom I'm certain 99% would never even contemplate violence as a means), islamophobia bieng the common denominator, that has made itself very visible over the last 10 years or so, with the oncoming of web newspapers, demanding to be taken seriously, claiming themselves to be victims of persecution or whatever (claiming to be a victim is a very popular discourse strategy in the world's most privileged country).

Latest from Norway: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4182828.ece: He most likely used dum-dum ammunition. Just to emphasize that the distinction discussion we're having truly feels cursory at the moment.

[slightlydead]

He is not a neo nazi. It's easy to see what he is and how to categorize him.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t818918-36/

Here take a look. Above link is a white nationalist site known for its extreme views regarding racial mixing, segregation and its unorthodox evolutionary biology. I look to this website everytime because there is no better way to discern events than looking from someone's perspective across the other side of the table, especially if they're there the polar opposite of what you think. Now there a lot of bigots in the forum, but even those bigots (some of who love hitler) are mostly disgusted with the events that have transpired. It is simple to call someone a monster and be done with it. It is better to look at people and see the difference between a delusional bigot and a rational bigot and from there you can kind of tell that this man was among the delusional bigots.