Riots in Egypt

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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby FrStv » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:39 am UTC

Diadem wrote:
The Reaper wrote:Some people are calling to gather everyone to take the palace tomorrow, and a few were already starting to walk that way.

Too late. Mubarak is clearly secure in his position again now. He would not have given such a speech otherwise. They should have stormed his palace much earlier if they had wanted to be succesful.

The protesters lost the momentum. Mubarak has had time to realign the people around him and make sure of their loyalty.

Security is always a matter of perspective - I'm leaning toward Reaper's take ("Man's trying his damnedest to get himself lynched") being more accurate here. It's a damn shame they didn't storm it earlier - march of millions was their best opportunity for that - but it's not too late.

The protesters have been slowly losing momentum until recently, but watching AJE this morning it seems like Mubarak's speech is helping them regain that easily. Yeah, he may have had the opportunity to better secure his immediate surroundings, but even the leadership of his own NDP is calling for him to step aside, and I have to admit I doubt his presidential guard is so big and/or so loyal that they'd dare to take on tens of thousands of angry Egyptians, much less the several hundred thousand to over a million of them that might turn out to show him the door.

The terrifyingly unpredictable variable here is the military. They may continue pretending to stay on the sidelines, letting this play out with their current minimal level of involvement. There's a good chance (though I wouldn't yet call it a probability) of their staging a coup, which could lead to anything from an open, stable democratic system to yet another unelected regime that lasts another few years (decades?). There also exists the (apparently/hopefully extremely remote) possibility that they'll end up making this several thousand times more bloody than it needs to be.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Diadem » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:40 pm UTC

FrStv wrote:
Diadem wrote:
The Reaper wrote:Some people are calling to gather everyone to take the palace tomorrow, and a few were already starting to walk that way.

Too late. Mubarak is clearly secure in his position again now. He would not have given such a speech otherwise. They should have stormed his palace much earlier if they had wanted to be succesful.

The protesters lost the momentum. Mubarak has had time to realign the people around him and make sure of their loyalty.

Security is always a matter of perspective - I'm leaning toward Reaper's take ("Man's trying his damnedest to get himself lynched") being more accurate here. It's a damn shame they didn't storm it earlier - march of millions was their best opportunity for that - but it's not too late.

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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:03 pm UTC

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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Briareos » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:36 pm UTC

They're reporting Mubarak has fled from Cairo.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:56 pm UTC

Briareos wrote:They're reporting Mubarak has fled from Cairo.

And they're still saying that he's going to come back too. I'm not sure they're telling the truth. If I had that much money, and that many people wanted to kill me, I'd prolly donate half my fortune to appease the mob and flee with the other half. Then again, I hope I wouldn't have shit on my citizens for 30 years as well.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:57 pm UTC

He said in his speech he would never leave Egypt.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby broken_escalator » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:58 pm UTC

So is he really gone off to hiding or are they saying that in hope the mob will calm down?
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:04 pm UTC

Al Jazeera has reported that Mubarak has stepped down. I wonder if they'll continue to push for the rest of the admin to go....
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Dream » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:09 pm UTC

Guardian has that too, and that power has been handed to the army, whatever that means. With any luck, it means not Suleiman.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby broken_escalator » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:15 pm UTC

Then wtf was his speech about?
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Thesh » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:16 pm UTC

Yeah, it seems like it won't be Suleiman... I just hope the people get what they want, and I don't think they want military rule.

broken_escalator wrote:Then wtf was his speech about?


I think he just realized that if he doesn't get out of dodge now, he will end up like Mussolini.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby savanik » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:51 pm UTC

Here's a link to some live coverage: Mubarak Resigns, Hands Power to Military.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Greyarcher » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:08 pm UTC

Well, well, Mubarak actually finally resigned. Nicely done, protesters.

Transitional military rule next, until proper elections can be set up or somesuch? I'm cautiously optimistic.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby FrStv » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:37 pm UTC

Dream wrote:Guardian has that too, and that power has been handed to the army, whatever that means. With any luck, it means not Suleiman.

Thesh wrote:Yeah, it seems like it won't be Suleiman... I just hope the people get what they want, and I don't think they want military rule.

Sadly, it's difficult to say what it does mean, beyond simply "not Suleiman." Mubarak owes his ascension to the Presidency to the military - the same is true of his three predecessors IIRC.
Greyarcher wrote:Well, well, Mubarak actually finally resigned. Nicely done, protesters.

Transitional military rule next, until proper elections can be set up or somesuch? I'm cautiously optimistic.

That's what they're saying is the plan, anyway. Here's hoping they do the honorable thing this time and let the people decide how they want their government to run.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby broken_escalator » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:38 pm UTC

C'mon democracy that the people want. No whammies!
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:43 pm UTC

Am I the only one who finds this sadly amusing?
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20110211/D9LAIKV80.html
"Despite all the (West's) complicated and satanic designs ... a new Middle East is emerging without the Zionist regime and U.S. interference, a place where the arrogant powers will have no place," Ahmadinejad told the crowd.

He also urged Egyptian protesters to persevere until there is a regime change. "It's your right to be free. It's your right to exercise your will and sovereignty ... and choose the type of government and the rulers."

After his address, Ahmadinejad carried a placard reading, "Death to Israel."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... 917f92.241
"The recent arrests and effort to block international media outlets underscores the hypocrisy of the Iranian leadership," {US} National Security Council spokesman Tommy Vietor said.

"For all of its empty talk about Egypt, the government of Iran should allow the Iranian people the same universal right to peacefully assemble, demonstrate and communicate in Tehran that the people are exercising in Cairo."
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby broken_escalator » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:49 pm UTC

They just want a hug.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby acai » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:02 pm UTC

Obama to speak at 3pm ET.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:09 pm UTC

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/111529/ ... unisia.htm

The swiss are taking a stand against pump and dump country schemes, it seems.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/ ... 8R20110211


unrelated:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/02/ ... appliances
Man, that would be neat to have. A wartime army that translates directly to a business.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Djehutynakht » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:06 am UTC

This won't end well.

Personally, as long as they don't get between me and the ancient stuff, I'm fine.

But the Middle East tends to be unstable... so... it's not that I'm in favor of a big pro-American state so much as I'm against an anti-American one.

Polarity tends not to work well in social issues.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Jesse » Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:43 am UTC

I don't much care whether a country likes or dislikes America (Or the UK for that matter), but I am pleased at the reminder that any government should fear the will of its people. And if this leads to the democratic and fair elections the people want then it is nothing but good.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby sourmìlk » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:52 am UTC

Jesse wrote:I don't much care whether a country likes or dislikes America (Or the UK for that matter), but I am pleased at the reminder that any government should fear the will of its people. And if this leads to the democratic and fair elections the people want then it is nothing but good.


Elections != Democracy. See: Gaza.

Apparently the Muslim Brotherhood said that it would only take part in transitioning to a new government. I'm skeptical.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby stratosfender » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:06 pm UTC

Two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for dinner.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:45 pm UTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBjLxeZOGKE
They're going over the list of things now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12443678
Egypt's new military authorities say they are dissolving parliament and suspending the constitution.

In a statement on state TV, the higher military council said it would stay in power six months, or until elections.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Game_boy » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:23 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:I don't much care whether a country likes or dislikes America (Or the UK for that matter)


There's plenty to dislike. Calling America and the West out on their hypocrisies on the world stage would be a positive thing. Maybe it would get America to do the right thing as well.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:18 pm UTC

http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/A ... 2275.shtml
The inside story of Egyptian soldiers refusing orders to massacre people in Tahrir Square

Editor's Note: Axis of Logic reader, writer and correspondent, John Spritzler (Boston) sent us the following portions of a WL Central article, republished today on Axis of Logic. - LMB

John Spritzler: It is good that Hosni Mubarak hasn't left Egypt and they should not let him leave because he has some very serious charges to face. We now know that on the night of January 30th, at one of the most critical junctures for the Egyptian Revolution, that President Mubarak ordered the army tank command to massacre the people in Tahrir Square and the tank commanders refused. As Robert Fisk reported on Friday:

The critical moment came on the evening of 30 January when, it is now clear, Mubarak ordered the Egyptian Third Army to crush the demonstrators in Tahrir Square with their tanks after flying F-16 fighter bombers at low level over the protesters.

Many of the senior tank commanders could be seen tearing off their headsets – over which they had received the fatal orders – to use their mobile phones. They were, it now transpires, calling their own military families for advice. Fathers who had spent their lives serving the Egyptian army told their sons to disobey, that they must never kill their own people.

Later we could see some tank commanders in Tahrir Square stripping off their uniforms and joining the protesters. The revolution and Tahrir Square had yet to endure the horrific violence that Mubarak's thugs were to unleash on February 2nd and 3rd but already his most powerful tool of violent suppression had abandoned him.

Although the army took a neutral position when Mubarak's thugs came riding horses and camels into the crowds and then ended up my employing Molotov cocktails and machine guns on them, while the army stood by, those thugs didn't have tanks and artillery and Mubarak already knew that they weren't going to be in this fight. So once this thug assault failed to drive pro-democracy activists from the square and the people came back even stronger on the Friday, Mubarak was out of options. His fate was all but sealed.

So soldiers with cell phones stopped the massacre. This is yet another way that new technology has played a surprising role in this new wave of revolutions. A lot of armies, including the U.S. army, allow their people to carry cell phones. Now an army in the field has used cell phones to organize a mutiny. Will they be re-thinking that?

Please note also something else that can be deduced from Robert Fisk's description of these events (below). Namely that it was the low level officers in the tanks, the ones that got their orders over headsets, that refused to carry out the mass murder in Tahrir Square. Had the top brass refused Mubarak, those orders never would have been heard over headsets.

This should give all some insight into the true character of the supreme military council, show that this revolution is not safe in their hands, indicate the importance of the people building strong ties with the lower ranks of the army and most importantly, not letting down their guard or abandoning Liberation Square.

While there are still many questions and problems in the road going forward and the success of the Egyptian Revolution is by no means assured simply because Mubarak has finally been forced from office, the Egyptian people have shown a good account of themselves so far and the future looks bright.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:35 pm UTC

How reputable is Axis of Logic? I'm skeptical of a website that seeks to publish things not covered by "mainstream media".
Although this story certainly fits in with a lot of verified facts.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Radical_Initiator » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:02 pm UTC

This fits in a little with the other topic on Cameron's speech and the bourgeois media, but I always find it a little funny when we say we don't trust the mainstream media anymore, but we also don't trust anyone who doesn't trust the mainstream media. Leaves us in a bit of a hole where the only media we will trust is Colbert and Stewart - the kind of media that begs you not to trust it.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:07 pm UTC

I still trust Al-Jazeera, BBC, Reuters, The Economist, and the AP. I'm concerned that ABC, NBC, and CNN don't do deep enough coverage to get a real idea of the facts. And only Tea Partiers and head-in-the-sand Republicans trust Fox News.

I used to trust the New York Times, but I recently read a non-opinion business piece that seemed shockingly slanted, so I now treat them with skepticism. Colbert and the Daily Show have always been trustworthy in what they report, just not what they say in addition to what they report, which are clearly jokes and opinion.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Роберт » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:19 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote: And only Tea Partiers and head-in-the-sand Republicans trust Fox News.

Hey, as a head-in-the sand republican tea partier, I resent that remark! I'm not _that_ dumb.

Just kidding, I'd trust Fox News with my daughter's virginity.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Dream » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:07 pm UTC

All of Robert Fisk's reportage from Egypt can be read here, so that third hand blog reports don't have to be assessed for truthfulness. He doesn't need me to defend his journalistic integrity, just look up his work. It's no wonder this fits the known facts, it's direct reports from Cairo, without even a third party translator in the way.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Greyarcher » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:55 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:John Spritzler: It is good that Hosni Mubarak hasn't left Egypt and they should not let him leave because he has some very serious charges to face. We now know that on the night of January 30th, at one of the most critical junctures for the Egyptian Revolution, that President Mubarak ordered the army tank command to massacre the people in Tahrir Square and the tank commanders refused. As Robert Fisk reported on Friday:

The critical moment came on the evening of 30 January when, it is now clear, Mubarak ordered the Egyptian Third Army to crush the demonstrators in Tahrir Square with their tanks after flying F-16 fighter bombers at low level over the protesters.

Many of the senior tank commanders could be seen tearing off their headsets – over which they had received the fatal orders – to use their mobile phones. They were, it now transpires, calling their own military families for advice. Fathers who had spent their lives serving the Egyptian army told their sons to disobey, that they must never kill their own people.

[snip]

Please note also something else that can be deduced from Robert Fisk's description of these events (below). Namely that it was the low level officers in the tanks, the ones that got their orders over headsets, that refused to carry out the mass murder in Tahrir Square. Had the top brass refused Mubarak, those orders never would have been heard over headsets.

This should give all some insight into the true character of the supreme military council, show that this revolution is not safe in their hands, indicate the importance of the people building strong ties with the lower ranks of the army and most importantly, not letting down their guard or abandoning Liberation Square.

While there are still many questions and problems in the road going forward and the success of the Egyptian Revolution is by no means assured simply because Mubarak has finally been forced from office, the Egyptian people have shown a good account of themselves so far and the future looks bright.
Son of a...so he actually gave the order and they refused, eh? Talk about close calls. If that is indeed true, I hope that knowledge gets spread around Egypt; don't want them getting too complacent or trusting of the higher-ups. And it would be good to see some legal repercussions somewhere along the road.

Heh. And to think I've seen some remarks that what happened was bloodless and that revolutions don't need violence to succeed.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Zamfir » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:41 pm UTC

Greyarcher wrote:Son of a...so he actually gave the order and they refused, eh? Talk about close calls. If that is indeed true, I hope that knowledge gets spread around Egypt; don't want them getting too complacent or trusting of the higher-ups. And it would be good to see some legal repercussions somewhere along the road.

The tricky part is that those higher-ups seem to be the people in power right now.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby broken_escalator » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:53 pm UTC

Hopefully that wont matter if all their subordinates refuse their orders. Hopefully...
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Greyarcher » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:13 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Greyarcher wrote:Son of a...so he actually gave the order and they refused, eh? Talk about close calls. If that is indeed true, I hope that knowledge gets spread around Egypt; don't want them getting too complacent or trusting of the higher-ups. And it would be good to see some legal repercussions somewhere along the road.

The tricky part is that those higher-ups seem to be the people in power right now.

broken_escalator wrote:Hopefully that wont matter if all their subordinates refuse their orders. Hopefully...

Right. The higher-ups in the military don't want to have the lower rankers and the people to turn on them. So they have to weigh things: do they have a good chance of avoiding too much trouble if they just give people what they want and try to avoid scrutiny? How does that compare to the risks of making a power grab?

I'm hoping they think making any sort of power grab would be too risky. But who knows?
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby bigglesworth » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:17 pm UTC

Or perhaps they're happy being at the top of the military, are quite comfortable and rich, and don't feel the need to become a dictator.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Dream » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:23 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:Or perhaps they're happy being at the top of the military, are quite comfortable and rich, and don't feel the need to become a dictator.

Weigh that against the likelihood that having so much to lose in any radical social change, they will accrue power in order to protect their comfortable lifestyle.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby The Reaper » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:00 am UTC

Trigger warning (rape):
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2011 ... eporte.php
Spoiler:
South African TV journalist Lara Logan, known for her shocking good looks and ballsy knack for pushing her way to the heart of the action, was brutally and repeatedly raped while a crowd of 200 celebrated the February 11 resignation of 30-year Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.

Logan was in Tahrir Square with her "60 Minutes" news team when Mubarak's announcement broke. Then, in a rush of frenzied excitement, some Egyptian protestors apparently consummated their newfound independence by sexually assaulting the blonde reporter:

CBS News reports that "she and her team and their security were surrounded by a dangerous element amidst the celebration." Then, the horrific assault:

In the crush of the mob, she was separated from her crew. She was surrounded and suffered a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating before being saved by a group of women and an estimated 20 Egyptian soldiers. She reconnected with the CBS team, returned to her hotel and returned to the United States on the first flight the next morning. She is currently in the hospital recovering.

Thirty-nine-year-old Logan has long attacked Hollywood-lite reporters for their dumbing down of overseas violence -- at the same time using her Hollywood good looks and spotlight to push a more hard-hitting agenda.

In this 2008 interview with Comedy Central's Jon Stewart, the gutsy stunner calls America out on its appetite for easy, bite-sized war reporting:

Strangely, Logan had just been detained by the Egyptian government during anti-Mubarak protests the week before her rape, and was reported as having returned to the U.S. momentarily on February 4.

But she returned, hoping to catch Middle Eastern history in the making -- and fell victim to the chaos of the moment. An Esquire interview with Logan last Friday called her "insane" for making the return trip to Egypt. One chilling excerpt:

But Lara Logan, you see, is not afraid. "There's no doubt in my mind that the situation we were caught in before, we are now arriving into again," she tells The Politics Blog.

Another unsettling discovery for us, in light of Logan's brutal rape, is how viscously she's long been attacked by both right- and leftbloggers for her no-holds-barred approach. On February 3, Mofo Politics wrote: "Gee Willikers if I were her captors and there were no sanctions for doing so? I would totally rape her." The Huffington Post has dealt her a few blows as well.

Logan's sex life famously came under fire in 2008. From the New York Post:

Sexy CBS siren Lara Logan spent her days covering the heat of the Iraq war - but that was nothing compared to the heat of her nights.

The "60 Minutes" reporter and former swimsuit model apparently courted two beaus while she was in Baghdad, and has been labeled a homewrecker for allegedly destroying the marriage of a civilian contractor there, sources said.

Passions got so hot in the combat zone that one of her lovers, Joe Burkett, brawled in a Baghdad "safe house" with her other paramour, CNN war reporter Michael Ware, a source said.

The wife of Burkett, a US Embassy worker, claims the sultry 37-year-old correspondent seduced him while bullets flew overhead.

But there are also those who've focused on appreciating her attack approach -- including one Los Angeles Times blogger, who commented on the "Daily Show" cameo:

"I for one was struck by Logan's candor. What she says about the sanitizing of war coverage borders on media sacrilege. You rarely hear that kind of opinion from a major media representative, let alone on a major television station. Impressive."

Impressive, indeed -- but nobody's invincible. For a look back at Logan's break into big journalism, see 2005 New York Times piece "War Zone 'It Girl' Has a Big Future at CBS News."
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Shadowfish » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:39 pm UTC

That's a horrifyingly tasteless article. What does her sex life have to do with anything? Or the repeated references to how attractive she is? That is not at all appropriate.
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Re: Riots in Egypt

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:45 pm UTC

Indeed. That article was very, very inappropriate.
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