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Re: LOST

Postby frezik » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:45 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:I wonder how much nerd rage would ensue if Lost turned out to be one epic shaggy dog story?


Lots. That'd be a deus ex machina ending, which I hate. DS9 skirted the line with Benny Russell, and that was worked into the show well enough over a few seasons.
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Re: LOST

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:40 pm UTC

frezik wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:I wonder how much nerd rage would ensue if Lost turned out to be one epic shaggy dog story?


Lots. That'd be a deus ex machina ending, which I hate. DS9 skirted the line with Benny Russell, and that was worked into the show well enough over a few seasons.


It would be a deus ex machina ending, but given how much entangled plot threads, characterisation, and mystery has been built up over the course of 6 seasons, the idea of it all ending in an anticlimax does appeal somewhat. You know, for the lols.
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Re: LOST

Postby une see » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:52 pm UTC

Krong wrote:Definitely not the best line, but maybe the best-delivered line in LOST came from last night's episode:
Spoiler:
Miles: Uh oh!
(Right before the title animation, in reference to Ilana saying Jacob was the closest thing she'd had to a father, after it was revealed that Ben had killed him.)

Personally, I thought it was hilarious. Your mileage may vary.

Miles is my favorite character right now. He's probably the most sarcastic person that has ever existed, in fiction and in real life.
Spoiler:
Speaking of Miles, remember a few episodes ago when he made a joke about "Hugo taking charge"? It was funny, but it was also pretty telling. Hurley has been taking charge lately. He's the big loveable guy who no one has a problem with, who everyone underestimates, and who is the only person in contact with Jacob right now. Something big is definitely going to happen with Hurley. Could he become the next Jacob, if in fact there is a next Jacob? Seems really possible to me.

Was anyone else unhappy about the way the temple was overrun? I can't believe they killed off Dogen like that!! His story about his little boy was so sad. :( And then the next moment: BAM! Stabbed by Evil Sayid.

I'm not really a big fan of the alternate timeline. It doesn't add much in my opinion. I guess we'll see, but its only purpose right now seems to be as an opportunity for the uber-fans to pick out all the little details that are off in the alternate timeline. And the big details (Jack having a son, Locke being engaged to Helen, Hurley being extremely lucky, etc.) that everyone can recognize are just like...okay, so what? At least that's what I think.

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Re: LOST

Postby Lazar » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:56 pm UTC

une see wrote:I'm not really a big fan of the alternate timeline. It doesn't add much in my opinion. I guess we'll see, but its only purpose right now seems to be as an opportunity for the uber-fans to pick out all the little details that are off in the alternate timeline. And the big details (Jack having a son, Locke being engaged to Helen, Hurley being extremely lucky, etc.) that everyone can recognize are just like...okay, so what? At least that's what I think.

Cuse and Lindelof have assured us that the sideways timeline is crucial to the resolution of the show. I trust them.
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Re: LOST

Postby feedme » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:33 pm UTC

une see wrote:I'm not really a big fan of the alternate timeline. It doesn't add much in my opinion. I guess we'll see, but its only purpose right now seems to be as an opportunity for the uber-fans to pick out all the little details that are off in the alternate timeline. And the big details (Jack having a son, Locke being engaged to Helen, Hurley being extremely lucky, etc.) that everyone can recognize are just like...okay, so what? At least that's what I think.


Spoiler:
Yeah, I mean I don't think they would do it w/o some sort of combining the two, but thus far it just seems like a giant "what if" scenario that they use. I mean I like seeing it, but I don't see its relevance. I did like the Whitmore knowing in both timelines though. But I don't know if he could. Ben's dad mentioned something about going to island with Dharma but then leaving, and now the island appears underwater.

*Shrug* We will see how this plays out.

And I really want an explanation as to how the smoke monster can take different forms...but I feel like they won't talk about that. Ever.

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Re: LOST

Postby HiddenCounter » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:36 pm UTC

Do you guys think Eko would not of died if he did repent to the Mib? That is why the Mib asked for him to repent. And since Eko was like "Fuck no" he killed him. I know it is a bit off-topic, but I just thought of it.
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Re: LOST

Postby uncivlengr » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:21 pm UTC

HiddenCounter wrote:Do you guys think Eko would not of died if he did repent to the Mib? That is why the Mib asked for him to repent. And since Eko was like "Fuck no" he killed him. I know it is a bit off-topic, but I just thought of it.
Eko died because the actor was done with the show - the writers have said that they had big plans for his character before then.
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Re: LOST

Postby MikeBabaguh » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:50 pm UTC

Well, that's extremely disappointing. He was arguably the best character during the worst season (2) and really helped keep things interesting for a while.
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Re: LOST

Postby une see » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:21 am UTC

I hate when characters get killed off for that reason. Most recently, Juliet. :(

Anyway, tonight's episode.....
Spoiler:
I guess it was interesting to see Sawyer as a cop. But wtf about him and Charlotte. I really hope the writers find a good way to tie all this alternate storyline stuff in, cause from where I'm standing, it just looks like they're including character connections all over the place just because they can. As for the island itself...I find myself extremely uninterested in MIB/Fake Locke's plans. Claire's fucking crazy, Sayid's crazy too. If Kate and Sawyer get back together again, or there's another fucking love triangle between them and Jack...this show will officially have gone down the pooper.
I haven't been a big fan of this season overall, really. Such shoddy writing sometimes...

Edit: But I am really excited for a Richard episode next week. It's going to be sick!
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Re: LOST

Postby frezik » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:27 am UTC

I bet Kate actually is innocent in the alt-timeline.
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Re: LOST

Postby feedme » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:51 am UTC

I think I'm more excited for Richard's episode than any other episode of this season yet. That will be awesome.

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Re: LOST

Postby Robstickle » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:44 am UTC

Spoiler:
Oh goody Kate's still alive...

Anyways I wonder if Miles still has the power to hear the dying thoughts of people in the alt timeline.

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Re: LOST

Postby feedme » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:53 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Would the alternate timeline still have Jacob and MIB in it? They wouldn't be the island of course, but everyone else from the island is there.

Also, how does Whidmore know how to get to the island? Through Faraday's mom? And why is he so deadset on getting back to it?

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Re: LOST

Postby JayDee » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:15 pm UTC

une see wrote:Anyway, tonight's episode.....
Spoiler:
I really hope the writers find a good way to tie all this alternate storyline stuff in, cause from where I'm standing, it just looks like they're including character connections all over the place just because they can.
Is that really any different from the types of connections that were revealed in various flashbacks? That these people ever ran into each other before they got on that plane is just as unlikely.

I'm still far from convinced that the current season's flashes will be any more than filler, will become relevant to the plot I already care about, but I'll admit I've enjoyed the last couple. Maybe it's because they've focused on characters I care about, I don't know.

I've also been wondering if they're any worse than flashbacks were back in the first couple of seasons. I'm guessing people watching those were wishing that they'd focus on the actual plot rather than these contrived filler character spotlights. But season 4 gave us flashforwards that touched on what was going to happen next, so they seemed more immediately relevant. And season 5 was more split between two storylines, quite different to one storyline and flashes of things that are hopefully relevant. So I wonder if it hasn't just been a couple years since I've had to put up with this sort of thing.
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Re: LOST

Postby feedme » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:13 pm UTC

As long as this whole flash sideways thing adds something to the end result, I don't mind it. If it's just filler, I'll be a little upset.

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Re: LOST

Postby the_bandersnatch » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:12 pm UTC

As a side topic, did anyone else notice just how huge Locke's man-boobs were this last episode? They're approaching comedy jugs proportions. (If it comes out that Terry O'Quinn is undergoing hormone replacement therapy I'll feel guilty, but vindicated.)
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Re: LOST

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:43 pm UTC

Neat things that were noticeable in s1e8 and s6e8:

Spoiler:
Sawyer's 'pigeon drop' con.
Sawyer is reading Watership Down.
Locke was scheming against Sawyer (sort of; mostly just giving Sayid someone to target for attacking him). Now Sawyer is scheming against not-Locke.
Also, Kate and Sawyer's first kiss, and now Sawyer planning to leave with Kate.


And did anyone else notice Liam in the police station? :D
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Re: LOST

Postby HiddenCounter » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:00 pm UTC

uncivlengr wrote:
HiddenCounter wrote:Do you guys think Eko would not of died if he did repent to the Mib? That is why the Mib asked for him to repent. And since Eko was like "Fuck no" he killed him. I know it is a bit off-topic, but I just thought of it.
Eko died because the actor was done with the show - the writers have said that they had big plans for his character before then.
That is dissapointing, was that the same reason for ana lousie and liby. I thought they killed liby so hurly would not have a love interest. Just an assumption though.
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Re: LOST

Postby Robstickle » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:25 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:
Spoiler:
Sawyer is reading Watership Down.


Spoiler:
He also had that bunny book.

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Re: LOST

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:49 pm UTC

...

I...


...
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Re: LOST

Postby frezik » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:52 pm UTC

HiddenCounter wrote:
uncivlengr wrote:
HiddenCounter wrote:Do you guys think Eko would not of died if he did repent to the Mib? That is why the Mib asked for him to repent. And since Eko was like "Fuck no" he killed him. I know it is a bit off-topic, but I just thought of it.
Eko died because the actor was done with the show - the writers have said that they had big plans for his character before then.
That is dissapointing, was that the same reason for ana lousie and liby.


The two had a DUI incident at almost exactly the same time. Offical word is that Ana Lucia's death was planned and the DUI was coincidental.
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Re: LOST

Postby Robstickle » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:19 pm UTC

Princess Marzipan wrote:...

I...


...


Never mention this little incident to anyone...ever.

I will hunt you down :evil:

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Re: LOST

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:49 pm UTC

I won't mention it, but the producers are probably going to push for a flashback to illustrate it, so...
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Re: LOST

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:50 pm UTC

Robstickle wrote:
Princess Marzipan wrote:...

I...


...


Never mention this little incident to anyone...ever.

I will hunt you down :evil:


Until you posted that, I assumed you were making a joke.
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Re: LOST

Postby Robstickle » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:51 pm UTC

Dagnammit...

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Re: LOST

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:52 pm UTC

Today is just not your day is it. :lol:
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Re: LOST

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:30 pm UTC

Robstickle wrote:Dagnammit...

Until that post, I assumed that you assumed I assumed you were making a joke, and were thus making another joke.
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Re: LOST

Postby frezik » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:10 pm UTC

Here's a theory that's been bashing around in my head. It works if you're willing to incorporate the Many Worlds interpretation of QM (not a big jump, since we're talking about alternate timelines) and assume the writers have some knowledge of how nuclear bombs work. I'm sure physicists will hate how MWI is used here (no matter if they buy that interpretation or not), but it's hardly the worst Hollywood could dish out against science.

Each time Juliet hit the Jughead core, one of three things could happen:

1) Nothing
2) Fizzle yield
3) Full detention

Since we're dealing with the random, quantum-level interactions within a nuclear device, we can incorporate MWI in a way that has macro-level effects. Each of the three possibilities above results in a different timeline or "World".

Although #1 may be the most likely occurrence on each hit, Juliet was going to keep hitting until something happened or she got tired and bleed to death. With successive hits, #1 becomes very unlikely.

#2 is the next most likely. You have to get a lot of fiddly details right with implosion-type bombs, or they'll fizzle. Nearly all large US bombs after WWII were implosion-types, and that would include Jughead. Since the bomb was already damaged when originally found and further damaged from the fall at the site, a fizzle yield is the most likely outcome after we eliminate #1.

A fissile yield can still make a big boom (say, enough to take out a few city blocks), but wouldn't destroy the whole Island. The result is coming into contact with the pocket of electromagnetism, which in turn needs to be periodically released, thus leading to the main timeline.

#3 would destroy the whole island, and results in the alternate timeline. The alternate timeline is truly "alternate" in the sense that it's less likely to happen than #2 (but more so than #1). In other words, it's not just a matter of point of view over which one should be considered "alternate".

My main argument against my own theory is that I'm not sure if the writers know enough about nukes to consider the difference between fizzle and full detentions. OTOH, using MWI in this way is more widely known by those writing science fiction.

Otherwise, there's not yet anything in the show that has contradicted this. There is some question if Jughead even is the cause of the split, but everything fits so far.
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Re: LOST

Postby folkhero » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:36 pm UTC

While I agree that the MWI seems to be what the writers are doing, I don't think they're doing it in the way you described, although I do like your theory. When Juliet hits the bomb the final time we get the white-flash thing that has been associated with the time jumps and it's not clear whether the bomb went off or not, although it was my interpretation at the time that it had gone off. I think in one timeline we have the flash accompanied by detonation, and in the other, there is the flash without detonation. I suppose it's possible that the later option would be fizzle yield, but I'd be surprised if the writers A: knew that much about nukes and B: wanted to explain the difference to viewers when they reveal what really happened, assuming they do make that reveal. As to why the timelines split, my theory is that it has more to do with time-travel paradoxes than QM. Namely, if the bomb went off and the island was underwater, how did Juliet get to the island to go back in time set off the bomb in the first place?
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Re: LOST

Postby Robstickle » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:11 am UTC

This image speaks so much truth about Jack.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2jd4ztx.png

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Re: LOST

Postby SlyReaper » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:50 pm UTC

Well that was the best episode of this series so far. By a long way.
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Re: LOST

Postby crowey » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:44 am UTC

I get a feeling it's all starting to come together...
I'm still curious as to who built the temple and statue, since things that size would take a fairly large group of people working together.

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Re: LOST

Postby the_bandersnatch » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:09 am UTC

Between the Richard episode and the Ben episode this series is shaping up to be the best since the first one, I hope the high standard continues.
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Re: LOST

Postby scotty2haughty » Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:32 pm UTC

Its been good to see things gradually comming together, not in a big "grand reveal" type of way but very clearly confirming theories and coming to a resolution. Richard's Story was probably the most revealing episode of all.
Some of my theories
Spoiler:
I dont they're actually in hell, like RIchard and Locke's dad have mentioned, I think its pretty clear its just mind games
I think we might see the advent of "the others" on the island
I think Desmond is going to come back in the next few weeks and do something awesome that saves the world
/s/

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Re: LOST

Postby Robstickle » Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:19 pm UTC

Spoiler:
So does anyone believe that Jacob actually is a good guy? He stated last episode that he's bringing humans to the island simply to try and prove a point to the MIB and then refusing to help them. That sounds kind of evil to me.

Especially since if he hadn't been bringing humans to the island the MIB would have had no way of killing him so he would be trapped anyway.

I'm actually kind of looking forward to Jack flipping out when he eventually meets Jacob (which I'm sure he will).

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Re: LOST

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:56 pm UTC

I think they're as bad as each other.
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Re: LOST

Postby crowey » Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:59 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I think that if we are to believe that MIB is a bad guy (which going on what we've seen so far isn't too hard), then we can assume that jacob is vaguely good, but perhaps not the Best Guy Ever. If MIB is the big evil that Jocob and a few others suggest then ultimately he's doing a big good thing keeping MIB from the rest of the world, but he's misguided in trying to teach MIB that people aren't all inherantly corruptable, and he doesn't mind sacrificing people for the cause.
Chaotic good, rather than Lawful good. Or something.

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Re: LOST

Postby folkhero » Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:42 pm UTC

Robstickle wrote:
Spoiler:
So does anyone believe that Jacob actually is a good guy? He stated last episode that he's bringing humans to the island simply to try and prove a point to the MIB and then refusing to help them. That sounds kind of evil to me.

Especially since if he hadn't been bringing humans to the island the MIB would have had no way of killing him so he would be trapped anyway.

I'm actually kind of looking forward to Jack flipping out when he eventually meets Jacob (which I'm sure he will).

Fucking over mortals to try to prove a point about their innate goodness: is anyone else reminded of "The Book of Job"?
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Re: LOST

Postby frezik » Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:46 pm UTC

crowey wrote:
Spoiler:
I think that if we are to believe that MIB is a bad guy (which going on what we've seen so far isn't too hard), then we can assume that jacob is vaguely good, but perhaps not the Best Guy Ever. If MIB is the big evil that Jocob and a few others suggest then ultimately he's doing a big good thing keeping MIB from the rest of the world, but he's misguided in trying to teach MIB that people aren't all inherantly corruptable, and he doesn't mind sacrificing people for the cause.
Chaotic good, rather than Lawful good. Or something.


Spoiler:
I don't think the "evil" that Jacob was talking about the island containing was intended to reference MIB. His dieing words from last season ("they're coming") imply something yet unknown. However, "they" may not actually exist, as MIB asserted to Sawyer in the cave.

Since there has been a lack of forshadowing of what the nature of "them" might be, I'm inclined to agree that "they" don't exist.


I don't think the writers of Lost are conciously following Bablyon 5, but I think some of JMS words on Vorlons vs. Shadows is enlightening. There's no reason to have to pigeonhole things into strict good and evil.
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Re: LOST

Postby JBJ » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:07 pm UTC

frezik wrote:
Spoiler:
I don't think the "evil" that Jacob was talking about the island containing was intended to reference MIB. His dieing words from last season ("they're coming") imply something yet unknown. However, "they" may not actually exist, as MIB asserted to Sawyer in the cave.

Since there has been a lack of forshadowing of what the nature of "them" might be, I'm inclined to agree that "they" don't exist.

Spoiler:
My take on the "they". "They're coming" referred to the candidates, Jack, Sawyer, Hugo, Jin, and Sayid. As long as there is a 'protector', MIB can't leave. This was revealed in the last episode when MIB told Jacob in the past that he'd kill him, to which Jacob replied that somebody else would take his place.

The loophole that allowed MIB to kill Jacob and get off the island was that all the candidates were in 1977. With no one to take up the protector role, MIB would finally be free to leave. But as Jacob died, the '77 Losties set off the bomb and flashed forward to present day. When Hugo talked with dead Jacob by the van next to the blown up Swan station, he said he'd been dead for about an hour. Their return to the present time line coincided with Jacob's death, closing the loophole for MIB to leave. Now he has to eliminate the remaining candidates, either by getting them killed (which he can't do himself) or getting them to join his side.
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