xkcd

by **Sc4Freak** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:42 am UTC

Yeah, the option to remove IE was one of the first attempts Microsoft made to try and avoid litigation. The saga kinda went like this:

EU: Tying IE to core Windows functionality and forcing it on users is anti-competitive.
Microsoft: OK, we'll add an option to remove IE8.
Other browser vendors: Bundling IE with Windows is anti-competitive.
EU: We agree.
Microsoft: OK, we'll ship Windows 7 without a browser.
Opera: That's still not good enough.
EU: It's also a stupid idea.
Microsoft: OK, we'll bundle the competitor's browsers with Windows 7.
EU: We'll think about it.

by **phillipsjk** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:04 am UTC

Sc4Freak wrote:But that's largely irrelevant. It doesn't matter whether DRM is enforced via. legal means (laws, agreements, treaties, etc.) or via. technical means (encryption). Either way, you can't play your DRM-laden media unless your software is DRM-enabled. If DRM is enforced by legal means, there's no way Microsoft can illegally and intentionally break DRM so you can play your DRM-laden media unrestricted. If it's enforced via. technical means, then the data simply won't be able to be accessed.

The correct response against DRM is to prevent the proliferation of DRM-laden media in the first place. Software supports DRM so it can be compatible with DRM-laden media that already exists. Like I said, without software support your DRM-laden media is unplayable. It's also worth noting that Vista/7's DRM affects only DRM-laden media. Regular media is unaffected.

I go into why DRM legislation is contradictory in another slightly off-topic post.

The argument boils down to the following: Technical means restricting copying won't work. The recipient and attacker are the same person. It takes only one person to figure out how to break the code. The legal means restricting the circumvention of DRM exist only because the technical means will never work. The most annoying potential problem with the legal protection of DRM is knowing when to stop trying to get something to work. You can't intentionally break something you don't implement, but the courts may not see it that way.

DRM does not always use "obvious" methods like encryption: sometimes they try to load a root kit that may be ignored by the OS. Sometimes as with flash video, they put a proprietary container around another format. My "how, exactly, is non DRM-enabled software prevented from displaying DRM-laden media?" question was merely meant to point out that it is not the job of the OS to arbitrate what programs can and can not implement DRM. To police that, the OS has to "flag" protected content, while at the same time ensuring that "players" are authenticated: more trouble than it is worth. For example, would Windows 7 try to prevent the playback of a DVD rip using VLC media player? Is that desirable functionality (relying on DCT-resistant watermarking)?

My argument in the post you were responding to is that I am adversely affected even if I don't support DRM. When Microsoft requires a DRM implementation for WHQL Certification, my ability to use that same hardware with an alternative OS is diminished. Even if I take a "pragmatic" approach and decide DRM can't be avoided, I may have to replace expensive hardware not because it is "broken" in the conventional sense, but because it doesn't meet the latest DRM standards.

by **crzftx** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:40 pm UTC

OOPMan wrote:As I understand it, the Browser Ballot system will work as follows:

System comes with IE8 installed
System *may* come with other browser installed
Upon launching IE the first time, a special browser ballot screen is displayed. It asks the user to select a browser,
presenting various options.
?????

And that's all I know...

I'm guessing once you select a browser it takes you to the download site or even starts a download and install
of the chosen browser.

I also recall reading that there is the option to remove IE8 from the system.

Nope, mine came with IE8 only. Upon first use, it did not ask me about any other browsers. It never mentioned any others, either.

by **OOPMan** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:15 am UTC

crzftx wrote:
OOPMan wrote:As I understand it, the Browser Ballot system will work as follows:

System comes with IE8 installed
System *may* come with other browser installed
Upon launching IE the first time, a special browser ballot screen is displayed. It asks the user to select a browser,
presenting various options.
?????

And that's all I know...

I'm guessing once you select a browser it takes you to the download site or even starts a download and install
of the chosen browser.

I also recall reading that there is the option to remove IE8 from the system.

Nope, mine came with IE8 only. Upon first use, it did not ask me about any other browsers. It never mentioned any others, either.

Your location states your to be in Illinois.

The Browser Ballot is for EU releases only.

by **Woegjiub** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:28 am UTC

As well as the browser ballot, some manufacturers (dell, sony) can give the option for a different bundled browser.
I think I read somewhere that sony bundled chrome rather than IE. (Don't quote me on that).

I'm running the alpha of Kubuntu 9.10 and the RC of win7 right now.
Guess which is more stable? Yeah, Linux.

It's actually so much nicer, especially with KDE4 - I have a win7 theme, an osx theme (complete with dock), and a heap of awesome compositing themes. At least on prettiness, KDE wins.
Consider the plasmoids, all the bundled KDE apps, universal theming, package management, etc etc.
I know which I'll be sticking with.

Win7 is pretty much going to be there solely for when I go to lans and game.

by **OOPMan** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:15 am UTC

Hmmmmmmm, I haven't been having any issues with Win 7. I'm running a Not-So-Legal final release copy in VBox and it works perfectly. Actually, it's more pleasant to use than XP on the same VBox, which is bizarre but fun.

by **Endless Mike** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:35 pm UTC

Woegjiub wrote:As well as the browser ballot, some manufacturers (dell, sony) can give the option for a different bundled browser.
I think I read somewhere that sony bundled chrome rather than IE. (Don't quote me on that).

They're bundling Chrome, but I'm not sure if IE8 is included or not and if it is whether Chrome is the default browser or not.

But shouldn't you be complaining about Sony being horribly overpriced? They're releasing a $1500 netbook!

by **Woegjiub** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:30 am UTC

Endless Mike wrote:
Woegjiub wrote:As well as the browser ballot, some manufacturers (dell, sony) can give the option for a different bundled browser.
I think I read somewhere that sony bundled chrome rather than IE. (Don't quote me on that).

They're bundling Chrome, but I'm not sure if IE8 is included or not and if it is whether Chrome is the default browser or not.

But shouldn't you be complaining about Sony being horribly overpriced? They're releasing a $1500 netbook!

I've sworn off arguing with regards to price - if people want to pay $2 million for a gold plated netbook, stuff em.

by **ash.gti** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:41 am UTC

I can't wait for the price of SSD's to go down, and netbooks are pushing that number down all the time. Netbooks generally go for the 'no moving parts' and the 'low power cost' which SSD's have.

When I can reasonably afford an SSD of about 128~256 gigs then I am totally going to put down the cash for the upgrade on my laptop.

I really hope windows 7 does come with a 'remove IE' option though. I'd rather not have to deal with that browser. I deal with it enough at work (I do web development, and cross browser support is the WORST part of my job *glares at IE*).

by **crzftx** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:13 am UTC

OOPMan wrote:
crzftx wrote:US-specific stuff

Your location states your to be in Illinois.

The Browser Ballot is for EU releases only.

Oops, sorry. I saw someone mention that, but wasn't sure everyone was in agreement.
And anyway, I don't see what's so wrong with IE8. Besides missing aniGIF support, it's pretty similar to something like Opera.
Of course, it's no Firefox

by **Amnesiasoft** » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:11 am UTC

The main problem is the lack of standards support.

by **OOPMan** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:18 am UTC

crzftx wrote:Oops, sorry. I saw someone mention that, but wasn't sure everyone was in agreement.
And anyway, I don't see what's so wrong with IE8. Besides missing aniGIF support, it's pretty similar to something like Opera.
Of course, it's no Firefox

Bollocks. You've never even used Opera have you?

There are loads of differences between O10 and IE8. Loads. Many loads. Multitudinous loads.

by **crzftx** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:40 pm UTC

OOPMan wrote:
crzftx wrote:Oops, sorry. I saw someone mention that, but wasn't sure everyone was in agreement.
And anyway, I don't see what's so wrong with IE8. Besides missing aniGIF support, it's pretty similar to something like Opera.
Of course, it's no Firefox

Bollocks. You've never even used Opera have you?

There are loads of differences between O10 and IE8. Loads. Many loads. Multitudinous loads.

I certainly have. Back in IE7 days, I had Opera as my FF backup (you know, just in case). But this is a religious war for a different thread

by **OOPMan** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:10 am UTC

crzftx wrote:
OOPMan wrote:
crzftx wrote:Oops, sorry. I saw someone mention that, but wasn't sure everyone was in agreement.
And anyway, I don't see what's so wrong with IE8. Besides missing aniGIF support, it's pretty similar to something like Opera.
Of course, it's no Firefox

Bollocks. You've never even used Opera have you?

There are loads of differences between O10 and IE8. Loads. Many loads. Multitudinous loads.

I certainly have. Back in IE7 days, I had Opera as my FF backup (you know, just in case). But this is a religious war for a different thread

Wow and yet you still manage to talk complete gibberish. How exactly is IE "similar" to Opera other than it being a tabbed web browser?

by **Amnesiasoft** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:08 am UTC

OOPMan wrote:Wow and yet you still manage to talk complete gibberish. How exactly is IE "similar" to Opera other than it being a tabbed web browser?

Because clearly they are both tabbed browsers that support JavaScript! And I thought you were smart :roll:

by **OOPMan** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:35 am UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:
OOPMan wrote:Wow and yet you still manage to talk complete gibberish. How exactly is IE "similar" to Opera other than it being a tabbed web browser?

Because clearly they are both tabbed browsers that support JavaScript! And I thought you were smart

Drat!

by **Bratmon** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:31 pm UTC

zug wrote:Plays World of Warcraft without requiring ridiculous workarounds?

Yeah, I know in which I'm investing.

How is one line of text a ridiculous workaround?

Code: Select all: sudo apt-get install wine

Wine has great support for that game, and you can use a GUI to install it if you want.

by **mcv** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:38 pm UTC

ex-kgb wrote:
Code: Select all
| ubuntu | windows -------------+-------------+--------------- Used by Jamie| yes | no Hyneman? | | -------------+-------------+---------------

Really? Then there's not really any war left to fight, is there?

by **Woegjiub** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:06 am UTC

mcv wrote:
ex-kgb wrote:
Code: Select all
| ubuntu | windows -------------+-------------+--------------- Used by Jamie| yes | no Hyneman? | | -------------+-------------+---------------

Really? Then there's not really any war left to fight, is there?

But is it Kubuntu?
Because gnome is hideous, as basic as windows 95 and just about as ancient.

by **stephentyrone** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:38 pm UTC

If you had told me ten years ago that a Linux user would be criticizing an OS on the grounds of looks, not functionality, I would have said you were crazy. Get the hell off my lawn.

by **MoghLiechty2** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:37 pm UTC

I don't care what all you penguinites think, I loves me a Windows 7!

by **OOPMan** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:04 am UTC

Windows 7 is the first decent version of Windows in ages, it must be said. Even I, a devoted penguinite, can not deny that Win 7 starts faster in VirtualBox than any other version of Windows I've tested in it. That said, VirtualBox is where it lies and VirtualBox is where it will remain. I have no need to run in on actual hardware.

by **MoghLiechty2** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:31 am UTC

For what it's worth, I've got Windows 7 fully booting in less than 20 seconds. ...(Off a solid state drive, but still...)

by **Woegjiub** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:01 am UTC

MoghLiechty2 wrote:I don't care what all you penguinites think, I loves me a Windows 7!

Don't get me wrong, I really like it - I even installed a plasma to KDE that makes its taskbar behave like win7's :p
It just isn't as customisable or nice looking, and I don't play video games so I don't need windows

by **scienceroboticspunk** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

I recently got Windows 7 through Dell since I bought my computer this summer with Vista. The upgrade cost me $0.00. It was also free shipping and got to me in a couple of days. I have a lot of software that runs on previous versions of windows and they work really well, havnt seen that many bugs yet. Last night I decided to try Ubuntu and the first time I tried downloading it the download timed out. The second time it worked. I partioned my drive before hand on windows and it was really easy. I also put Ubuntu onto a disk which took almost no time at all and was included in the Windows 7 software. When I booted up Ubuntu on the new partion it was pretty easy and installation was a lot faster than Windows 7. But when I logged on I couldn't connect to the internet without plugging in an ethernet cable. It seemed simple and things worked fast on Ubuntu but not being able to connect to wifi has annoyed me and I will try again later.
As for internet explorer v. firefox
I have both on my computer and they both work pretty good compared to what I grew up on. (My parents have AOL and the AOL browser on the other computers in my house)
So far I prefer Windows 7 to Ubuntu but I will keep an open mind.

by **pedal2000** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:18 pm UTC

zug wrote:Plays World of Warcraft without requiring ridiculous workarounds?

Yeah, I know in which I'm investing.

Blizzard tends to support Mac's as well, but for gaming period Window's is the way to go. So I'm with Windows too. I can find programs to do everything else (I've never had to use a Mac or Linux to accomplish something) yet so far Apple's strategy for gamers is "Use Windows"

by **eviloatmeal** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:19 pm UTC

Code: Select all: | Karmic | 7 -------------------------+-------------+--------------- Finally supports my | | infamous Soundblaster | | without any tinkering? | Finally! | Good question... might have to try that one... | | Boots from a flash drive?| Yes | It might, but it won't leave your sanity and / or hair intact after trying. | | Fresh install required? | Noop :) | Yes :( -------------------------+-------------+---------------

by **Woegjiub** » Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:37 pm UTC

The only things that matter.

Code: Select all: | Karmic | 7 -------------------------+-------------+--------------- Has KDE as a full DE? | Yes | No, only a broken half-KDE | | Has a Package manager? | Yes | No | | Is LEGALLY Free? | Yes | No -------------------------+-------------+---------------

by **adanedhel728** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:42 am UTC

Updating to Karmic turned out to be a major mistake for me. I spent today painfully downgrading to Jaunty again. Windows 7 has turned out to be far more stable than any Ubuntu release in my personal experience, though. For that matter, so was XP. I guess it really depends on what you're doing (I'm not a programmer myself and I'm not running any servers), but Ubuntu crashes all the time for me. Most of my Windows problems can be traced to poorly-designed third-party software rather than the OS itself (in fact, probably more than half of my problems can be traced to software made by Pinnacle, which I have purged from my system).

by **Woegjiub** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:26 am UTC

adanedhel728 wrote:Updating to Karmic turned out to be a major mistake for me. I spent today painfully downgrading to Jaunty again. Windows 7 has turned out to be far more stable than any Ubuntu release in my personal experience, though. For that matter, so was XP. I guess it really depends on what you're doing (I'm not a programmer myself and I'm not running any servers), but Ubuntu crashes all the time for me. Most of my Windows problems can be traced to poorly-designed third-party software rather than the OS itself (in fact, probably more than half of my problems can be traced to software made by Pinnacle, which I have purged from my system).

Install Kubuntu - Karmic has been as solid as a rock for me, more so even than Win7 ultimate final release, which locks up rather a bit for me.
Seriously, the KDE release is faster and better looking than the gnome one, with more functionality :p

by **adanedhel728** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:22 am UTC

I hate KDE. Especially the new one. Besides, the problems are in the individual programs, not Gnome.

Edit: I should probably elaborate, because that terseness kind of made me sound like a jerk.

I really don't like KDE much. I started out in MEPIS using KDE 3.5 but switched to Ubuntu (Kubuntu was giving me problems in that particular release) and I found that I was more comfortable in Gnome. And I can't find anything in KDE 4.0. I tried it in Suse, but that's probably a bad example because Suse froze up constantly. I briefly tried it in Hardy Heron but for whatever reason that I can't remember went back to Gnome.

But, at any rate, the biggest problem I was having with Karmic was that Flash flat out would not work. And I'm sure you've tried googling a linux problem before, right? Inevitably, you get forty thousand websites that say "We finally figured out how to fix it!" and none of them actually work.

I gave up trying to fix Flash when one of the "fixes" made Firefox segfault on almost every webpage.

The other problems I was having with Karmic weren't too much of a big deal. Maxima gave weird errors, that I could have fixed by manually updating with .deb files (and I've done that now that I've downgraded to Jaunty). There were a few other annoying things, like you can't change the startup sound using normal options, you can't deactivate the "Computer will restart in 60 seconds" weird dialogue box. (Both of which would be resolved by switching to KDE.) But the Flash was a BIG deal; one that I couldn't just ignore. And it wouldn't have been fixed by switching to KDE.

There are some people that are having no problems with Flash, though. And I don't want to join the hoards of people that complain endlessly about Karmic. Which I guess I've actually already done. I just want to quietly downgrade to Jaunty, and let people know to be careful if they want to go to Karmic.

YouTube · by **icelizarrd** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:01 am UTC

I'm kind of partial to Xfce. I don't tend to have very dramatic requirements for a desktop environment. But I'll take KDE over Gnome.

That is, when I'm actually using Linux. I still end up on Windows most of the time due to needing audio/video editing software.

by **Woegjiub** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:11 am UTC

adanedhel728 wrote:I hate KDE. Especially the new one. Besides, the problems are in the individual programs, not Gnome.

Edit: I should probably elaborate, because that terseness kind of made me sound like a jerk.

I really don't like KDE much. I started out in MEPIS using KDE 3.5 but switched to Ubuntu (Kubuntu was giving me problems in that particular release) and I found that I was more comfortable in Gnome. And I can't find anything in KDE 4.0. I tried it in Suse, but that's probably a bad example because Suse froze up constantly. I briefly tried it in Hardy Heron but for whatever reason that I can't remember went back to Gnome.

But, at any rate, the biggest problem I was having with Karmic was that Flash flat out would not work. And I'm sure you've tried googling a linux problem before, right? Inevitably, you get forty thousand websites that say "We finally figured out how to fix it!" and none of them actually work. I gave up trying to fix Flash when one of the "fixes" made Firefox segfault on almost every webpage.

The other problems I was having with Karmic weren't too much of a big deal. Maxima gave weird errors, that I could have fixed by manually updating with .deb files (and I've done that now that I've downgraded to Jaunty). There were a few other annoying things, like you can't change the startup sound using normal options, you can't deactivate the "Computer will restart in 60 seconds" weird dialogue box. (Both of which would be resolved by switching to KDE.) But the Flash was a BIG deal; one that I couldn't just ignore. And it wouldn't have been fixed by switching to KDE.

There are some people that are having no problems with Flash, though. And I don't want to join the hoards of people that complain endlessly about Karmic. Which I guess I've actually already done. I just want to quietly downgrade to Jaunty, and let people know to be careful if they want to go to Karmic.

What are you on about with regards to flash?
I open up amarok or K3B or anything that requires proprietary codecs, and an icon pops up asking me to install the restricted extras.
And then flash is installed, and works perfectly.

The only problem I had with Karmic was installing the proprietary ATi drivers, which I resolved by using the binary one from ATi's website.

You mentioned you tried 4.0, Don't judge KDE by 4.0.
The difference betweem 4.0 and 4.2 is the difference between alpha and final release, 4.3 is like service pack 1.
It's completely different now, it's more like 3.5 on steroids.
The centralised control centre can change all the settings, and is laid out logically, as are all the options in the applications now.

It seems like your qualms were with previous versions, and they may have been resolved with the latest updates.
Give it a try, I'm sure you'll find it's inproved exponentially

by **Berengal** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:37 pm UTC

Until Ubuntu 9.10, KDE has been the only "OS" to handle my box like it should. Windows {XP,Vista} couldn't get sound going properly (switching between headset/speakers and microphone/no microphone was a tedious and laborious project), and Gnome had some issues as well, such as having to fall back to OSS. Both Kubuntu 8.10 and Arch with KDE managed just fine, and when I tried Ubuntu 9.10 it suddenly worked there as well.

I briefly tried my sound setup in a friend's machine running Windows 7, and it still didn't work properly. I couldn't turn off or adjust the volum on the speakers or headphones selectively, but had to treat them as one unit.

by **Amnesiasoft** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:26 pm UTC

Berengal wrote:I couldn't turn off or adjust the volum on the speakers or headphones selectively, but had to treat them as one unit.

You clearly weren't trying very hard.

by **Berengal** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:20 pm UTC

l did try that hard. There was just the one choice. l have had similar setups before, and they have worked, but for some reason this one is troublesome almost everywhere (except for the newer linuxes, andKDE in particular has worked very well).

by **adanedhel728** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:27 pm UTC

You mentioned you tried 4.0, Don't judge KDE by 4.0.

I'll remember that. I hadn't kept up with KDE since 4.0, but it looks like 4.2 is available for Jaunty so I'll try that. I still wouldn't be able to move to Karmic because of Flash, though. To my knowledge, that problem wouldn't be any different in KDE. Maybe I'm wrong, though. The problem was that Flash would accept no input from my mouse. I would click and it wouldn't do anything. The keyboard worked, but not the mouse. I tried a few suggestions for fixing it. The first few I tried changed nothing. The last one I tried made FF segfault whenever I'd go to a site with flash. I went to linuxquestions.org, and the only suggestion I got was to go back to Jaunty. I don't know what's causing it, but I tried very hard to fix it to no avail.

by **OOPMan** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:39 am UTC

Berengal wrote:l did try that hard. There was just the one choice. l have had similar setups before, and they have worked, but for some reason this one is troublesome almost everywhere (except for the newer linuxes, andKDE in particular has worked very well).

Sounds like a driver issue. That's usually the source of fancy stuff like the screencap Amnesiasoft posted *NOT* working on Windows :-)

by **phlip** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:49 am UTC

adanedhel728 wrote:I would click and it wouldn't do anything. The keyboard worked, but not the mouse.

Huh. I'm getting that, too. I figured it was just something I'd done horribly wrong. I know it's not a Fx problem, 'cause it happens in the standalone player too.

Though, I have figured out that if the mouse is moving when you click, it has a better chance of recognising it... so if you jiggle the mouse and click lots, sometimes it works. Or tab and enter. It's enough to get, say, YouTube videos working, but not enough for certain flash games...

All in all, though, I'm less than impressed with 9.10... Flash broke, ALSA got a bunch less stable, and xhost keeps crapping out on me. I had a bunch of stuff in crontab that pops up xmessage windows... stuff like "Hey, that TV show you like is on now" or "You really should leave for work soon", type of thing. And completely at random, they'll stop working, and cron will send me error emails about not being authorised to connect to the X server. One run of "xhost + local:" later, and they're working again, for a few hours, maybe a day or so, but come the next morning when I'm supposed to be leaving for work, it'll suddenly reset again.

I'm considering rolling back to 9.04, even with all the hassle that downgrading is. Everything worked fine, then.

by **adanedhel728** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:06 pm UTC

I had a bunch of stuff in crontab that pops up xmessage windows...

I've never actually heard about crontab, but you might want to try KAlarm. I use it for the same type of thing, for popup message reminders. I never had any problems with it in Karmic (though if you go back to Jaunty like I did that'll be moot anyway). However, that being said, I was never able to get scheduled emails to work right. It would send several dozen emails instead of one for some odd reason.

I also used to use KAlarm with a command that played a random episode of Scrubs, and used that to wake up to every morning. It was pretty cool. I might start doing that again.

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