Mіcrosoft Platform Vs. All

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Mіcrosoft Platform Vs. All

Postby MoghLiechty2 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:10 pm UTC

[Split from VB thread]

All right then. It's been started. I've been thoroughly and sufficiently provoked. Years of hearing baseless accusations of "Microsoft is evil." and reading such pitifully witty memes as "Micro$oft" has caused me to pop. We're going to settle this. The monolithic Microsoft productivity suite vs. open-source and third-party platforms. Or vs. anything for that matter. Microsoft can take them all on.

From the last thread:

Main wrote:
Now, your job is to convince me to use anything but Microsoft C#, the latest Windows Server, and .NET services. I would like reasons that don't have anything to do with the current standard of the market, the availability of programmers, or compatibility. And I'm also not so stingy as to rule out things that will cost more but save in productivity in the long run.
I doubt I'll succeed, but I'm willing to make the attempt. So, here's some reasons:

1. Programmer quality. If you have a small startup and are only hiring 2-8 coders, the quality of their work is important. Said quality of work has been measured to vary by 10 times or more.[1][2] And - here's where it actually becomes an argument against MS - there is a strong correlation between the quality of someone's work and the quality of the tools they choose.
Paul Graham wrote:When you decide what infrastructure to use for a project, you're not just making a technical decision. You're also making a social decision, and this may be the more important of the two. For example, if your company wants to write some software, it might seem a prudent choice to write it in Java. But when you choose a language, you're also choosing a community. The programmers you'll be able to hire to work on a Java project won't be as smart as the ones you could get to work on a project written in Python. And the quality of your hackers probably matters more than the language you choose. ...


This argument is absurd. You see, long ago in a land far far away some business executives got together and created this idea called the Interview. Depending on the business application and the necessary quality of your programmers, it's bad business practice to put out a job advertisement that says "Wanted: C# Developer" because you're just going to end up getting the programmers you describe. Instead, (and this is what Microsoft even does for their own employees... and I would know) you interview the candidate and watch for their abilities in other languages, and put the focus on problem solving capabilities and their ability to grasp "tough" language concepts.

Potential employees having a correlation between their 'preferred' language and their productivity says nothing (or even the opposite) about that language's productivity. Of course better programmers are going to seek out greater challenges and more progressive languages, but that is another question entirely from what language is best for a business. If I'm a business, screw academia, I'm gonna make some money.
2. Source code availability. This one almost never matters, but when it matters it's important. If your web app is going down randomly due to a bug in an underlying (closed) platform, you then have to work around the platform, as opposed to debugging and fixing it - or paying someone else to do so. This is unlikely, but it's nice to know that you don't have to trust another company to fix things, even if you think they're trustworthy.

Just saying, if you're a large enough company (and you don't have to be that large) Microsoft assigns you a personal correspondent to the server and language development teams, a person who also aids you in troubleshooting and debugging.

3. Microsoft are evil. Windows has major design flaws. I cannot back these statements up with the quotations, references, statistics, anecdotes, and soul-destroying hateful rage that they deserve, so I'll turn to someone who can.

Not to spend too much of my time reading an article that presents only one side of the story, I'll simply say that it's thesis seems to be centered around the argument "Oh Noes Microsoft is a corporation that makes money and they try to make money!" And everything else are just things that you'd expect from, well, a corporation that makes money.

Design flaws: Sure they exist, but it is entirely in Microsoft's best interests to fix them to avoid bad PR and bad software sales. The article also attributes this sort of thing to "bad programming" What's this? A corporation can have bad programmers? No way! If the writer of the article has such a huge problem with it, I would invite him to apply to Microsoft's OS department so that he can personally fix it.

Lack of Innovation: That is hilarious. I can't even dignify this with an answer. Maybe Microsoft is too fed up solving real world problems to have time to provide cutesy little demonstrations to the media of the "next big thing." Google and Apple have the media bent over a couch.

Industry and Standard Bullying: Depending on how "free radical" and "gotta take down the Man" you are, this can be seen as either destructively manipulating the market or simply trying to implement a productive standard.

Seriously, if you don't like Microsoft's products, don't buy them. (I'm talking directly to the writer of the article, not to anyone on this thread who does exactly that)... And don't even begin to claim that Microsoft has some sort of monopoly on the market. That ship sailed years ago. The only thing they have a monopoly on is the Windows platform... Which... they... make.

So in summary, Microsoft is a business. They make money by providing value to the industry through the creation of software. And their products are excellent.
_______

Keep in mind, this is "Religious Wars" so I'm not going to claim to be 100% objective. I would like to have some good refutations so that I can learn more about these things, so please, keep anything personal to a minimum.
Last edited by MoghLiechty2 on Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:49 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby bigstrat2003 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:30 pm UTC

Microsoft can be real dicks sometimes.

Apple are amazingly huge dicks all the time. And they make an OS with the worst user interface of any major OS out there. And they have the most closed platforms ever.

Apple is the clear loser here. Since Microsoft > at least one company, Microsoft is not < all. Therefore, people who bash Microsoft need to look harder at other companies before they pick on Microsoft.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby Shriike » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:37 pm UTC

"Oh Noes Microsoft is a corporation that makes money and they try to make money!"

First off I'm not entirely against you (for a while there I completely stopped using windows because I was fed up with it, but I've slowly come to realize much like programming languages the different OS have strengths).

I actually think that a for profit business designing a programming language I actually have a problem with. If Microsoft had handled the .net framework differently (keep it separate from the main business, not do it for profit, add in multi-platform support), then this discussion wouldn't even exist.

As for Windows Vs. Unix, there was a study done by Microsoft that showed that Windows has a lower TCO, but other studies have shown Unix having a lower TCO. In the end, once again, different applications call for different tools.

As I said in the other thread though I think this isn't even an issue in a small business.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby ash.gti » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:58 pm UTC

bigstrat2003 wrote:Apple are amazingly huge dicks all the time. And they make an OS with the worst user interface of any major OS out there. And they have the most closed platforms ever.


Except they regularly sponsor, host, and contribute to many Open Source projects out there. Infact, most of the OS X operating system is Open Source, including the kernel and all their modifications to anything that is open source they use in their OS. The only parts of OS X that are not are Quartz (their Window Manager, which you can replace with any other Window Manager you want). And IMO OS X has the best interface of any major OS I have ever used, but thats purely an opinion so really neither of us can win that argument.

Apple is not some sort of godhead of the technology industry, but they work for me and I can get more shit done using their products than any other I have tried.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby Area Man » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:15 pm UTC

MoghLiechty2 wrote:Years of hearing baseless accusations of "Microsoft is evil."
Where have you been for the last couple of decades? Microsoft has been convicted of various business crimes on several continents!

MoghLiechty2 wrote:if you're a large enough company (and you don't have to be that large)...
With FLOSS I am a single individual and get the same full access to the source to know *exactly* how things work, and I can improve or change it to suit me, without even signing some NDA.

As a platform, TCO is hard to figure out because it depends on what you're doing and how much you know about it; but let's consider a common case where I want to run web, mail and db servers: for ms I have to buy the "professional/server" (or some non-castrated) version of windows, then buy the IIS licenses (don't forget development machines), and then limit access to whatever CALs!
Compare with Apache/lighttpd/..., PostgreSQL/..., and say Postfix: run on any common version of windows/linux/mac, unlimited times, with no access or processor restrictions.

The scalability of developers and deployment are simply incomparable.

And finally, ms only buys or copies innovation. DOS => purchased, windows => ripoff, sybase => sqlserver, java => .net, internet explorer - l.o.l, etc.
The only innovation was how to make money off of an inability to innovate.

Edit: how could I forget the zune?!
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby phillipsjk » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:52 am UTC

Can you clarify why this thread is distinct form the Why are Microsoft evil? Thread?

Is this tread focusing more on programming environment or something?
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby Philwelch » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:48 am UTC

MoghLiechty2 wrote:This argument is absurd. You see, long ago in a land far far away some business executives got together and created this idea called the Interview. Depending on the business application and the necessary quality of your programmers, it's bad business practice to put out a job advertisement that says "Wanted: C# Developer" because you're just going to end up getting the programmers you describe. Instead, (and this is what Microsoft even does for their own employees... and I would know) you interview the candidate and watch for their abilities in other languages, and put the focus on problem solving capabilities and their ability to grasp "tough" language concepts.


If you don't have a manageable number of candidates to interview, you're just wasting time.

MoghLiechty2 wrote:Potential employees having a correlation between their 'preferred' language and their productivity says nothing (or even the opposite) about that language's productivity. Of course better programmers are going to seek out greater challenges and more progressive languages, but that is another question entirely from what language is best for a business. If I'm a business, screw academia, I'm gonna make some money.


Better programmers do not choose to use inefficient languages for fun (i.e. COBOL). On the contrary, inefficient languages are usually forced upon programmers against their will (i.e. COBOL). Better programmers choose to use the languages they are most efficient in. Now, sometimes, that's a difficult language that you'll have a hard time finding someone to maintain the code for (i.e. Lisp) but at the same time, maybe it's a language that will enable so much productivity you'll overtake the competition just by using it (i.e. Lisp).

If you're a big business that hires "software engineers", you have a different set of concerns. Java and C# programmers are a dime a dozen, that's how big businesses hire them, and that's why Java and C# have a foothold in the market. Startups are infinitely more flexible to choose a more efficient albeit less popular language.

MoghLiechty2 wrote:Just saying, if you're a large enough company (and you don't have to be that large) Microsoft assigns you a personal correspondent to the server and language development teams, a person who also aids you in troubleshooting and debugging.


What about when you're two guys and a colocated server living on ramen, like your hypothetical startup?

(Time for some unsolicted sysadmin advice: Do not attempt to run your server on ramen. It wastes ramen and damages the server. Run the founders on ramen and the server on electricity.)

MoghLiechty2 wrote:Lack of Innovation: That is hilarious. I can't even dignify this with an answer. Maybe Microsoft is too fed up solving real world problems to have time to provide cutesy little demonstrations to the media of the "next big thing." Google and Apple have the media bent over a couch.


Microsoft's main function is cutesy little demonstrations of the "next big thing". Remember that multitouch coffee table they were demonstrating? Or the endless Longhorn promises that kept getting cancelled, like WinFS?

Apple only demonstrates developed and about-to-ship products, and Google's new products are public betas, some of which (Chrome) suck at immediate release time and get better, and some of which (Gmail) truly is the bees knees. Even Android's been released on a phone.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby hotaru » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:16 am UTC

Philwelch wrote:Apple only demonstrates developed and about-to-ship products,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taligent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_%2 ... _system%29
Code: Select all
#include <stdio.h>

int main()
{
 struct { unsigned a:3, b:3, c:2; } n = {0};
  do do printf("%hhu\n", *&n);
  while(!(n.a-- && !++n.b));
  while(++n.c);
  return 0; } 
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby Philwelch » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:40 am UTC

hotaru wrote:
Philwelch wrote:Apple only demonstrates developed and about-to-ship products,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taligent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copland_%2 ... _system%29


Notice my use of the present tense. Pointing out things that happened 15 years ago is pretty meaningless, especially when all my examples were from within the past five years. The only product since Jobs' return that Apple demonstrated more than a year prior to release was the original release of Mac OS X.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby sio » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:13 am UTC

Microsoft sucks. Here is why:

1. Security. No other OS in history has been as exploited as Windows. Don't try to give me that crap about it only being exploited more because it's used more - look at IIS. Used less than Apache, and yet exploited far more.

2. Price. The obvious one. Why would I pay $200 for a piece of feces like Vista when I could have an actual good quality OS for free?

3. Resource hoggage. The computer I'm writing this on is using 162M of memory. That's with a fully-functioning GUI, Firefox, assorted xterms and a music player. I'd like to see Vista match that.

4. Stability. Windows users, how many BSODs have you received in your life? I've received two kernel panics. Two, in five years of *nix use. One was due to an unwise option in the config of a newly-compiled kernel (my fault) and the other was due to a dying RAM stick (the hardware's fault).

5. Trust. I don't trust Microsoft not to give my data to the government (or marketing companies, for that matter). With a free software OS I don't *need* to trust anyone.

(6). Ethics. This is personal, and I am confident that my argument stands without this, but for completeness I am including it anyway. Believe it or not, there are very successful companies out there that aren't evil. Look at, say, Atlassian. Its products are used a lot in the business world (IIRC IBM, for example, uses their products). It has a code, of sorts, about ten points. One of them is "Don't fuck the customer". And it lives up to this motto gloriously. Microsoft's history is full of very little *except* fucking the customer. I won't go into this now as it is not integral to my argument, but I will if you ask me to.

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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby OOPMan » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:50 am UTC

MoghLiechty2 wrote:[Split from VB thread]

All right then. It's been started. I've been thoroughly and sufficiently provoked. Years of hearing baseless accusations of "Microsoft is evil." and reading such pitifully witty memes as "Micro$oft" has caused me to pop. We're going to settle this. The monolithic Microsoft productivity suite vs. open-source and third-party platforms. Or vs. anything for that matter. Microsoft can take them all on.

From the last thread:

Main wrote:
Now, your job is to convince me to use anything but Microsoft C#, the latest Windows Server, and .NET services. I would like reasons that don't have anything to do with the current standard of the market, the availability of programmers, or compatibility. And I'm also not so stingy as to rule out things that will cost more but save in productivity in the long run.
I doubt I'll succeed, but I'm willing to make the attempt. So, here's some reasons:

1. Programmer quality. If you have a small startup and are only hiring 2-8 coders, the quality of their work is important. Said quality of work has been measured to vary by 10 times or more.[1][2] And - here's where it actually becomes an argument against MS - there is a strong correlation between the quality of someone's work and the quality of the tools they choose.
Paul Graham wrote:When you decide what infrastructure to use for a project, you're not just making a technical decision. You're also making a social decision, and this may be the more important of the two. For example, if your company wants to write some software, it might seem a prudent choice to write it in Java. But when you choose a language, you're also choosing a community. The programmers you'll be able to hire to work on a Java project won't be as smart as the ones you could get to work on a project written in Python. And the quality of your hackers probably matters more than the language you choose. ...


This argument is absurd. You see, long ago in a land far far away some business executives got together and created this idea called the Interview. Depending on the business application and the necessary quality of your programmers, it's bad business practice to put out a job advertisement that says "Wanted: C# Developer" because you're just going to end up getting the programmers you describe. Instead, (and this is what Microsoft even does for their own employees... and I would know) you interview the candidate and watch for their abilities in other languages, and put the focus on problem solving capabilities and their ability to grasp "tough" language concepts.


Right. And that's why M$ has got a full complement of brilliant programmers who turn out such wonderful products as:

  • Windows ME
  • Windows Vista
  • Internet Explorer 5, 5.5, 6, 7 and 8
  • IIS
  • SQL Server

In case you missed it, I'm being sarcastic. Every piece of software on that list is flawed in comparison to the OSS alternatives. Windows as an OS is a pile a shoddy crap. Internet Explorer has done more to damage web development thany anything else in the field. IIS is a joke, a pathetic, scrawny excuse for a web server incapable of performing decently. SQL Server is similarly laughable. I have personally found DB2 to be more pleasant to install and configure.

Frankly, Business Executives don't know jack about coding and never will. I place no more trust in M$s interview process than I place in that of any other large company that hires people by the handful.

Potential employees having a correlation between their 'preferred' language and their productivity says nothing (or even the opposite) about that language's productivity. Of course better programmers are going to seek out greater challenges and more progressive languages, but that is another question entirely from what language is best for a business. If I'm a business, screw academia, I'm gonna make some money.


Wake-up kid. C# is not mana from heaven. It is not the worlds most productive language. It may be technically a little superior to Java as a language but that doesn't mean a damn thing. Both Java and C# are eclipsed by other languages when it comes to productivity. Lisp, Haskell and Python all run rings around Java and C# when it comes to getting things done.

The bottom line is that C# and Java are Lowest Common Denominator languages. People don't hire Java and C# coders because Java and C# are guarantees of success. They hire them because they're easy to replace if/when they fuck things up.

This is the prime reason why large businesses work with C# and Java and it says a lot when you meet a coder, ask him/her about his/her language knowledge and they say: "Well, I code in C#/Java because that's what the company uses. I don't know any others anyway, so I'm cool with that..."
2. Source code availability. This one almost never matters, but when it matters it's important. If your web app is going down randomly due to a bug in an underlying (closed) platform, you then have to work around the platform, as opposed to debugging and fixing it - or paying someone else to do so. This is unlikely, but it's nice to know that you don't have to trust another company to fix things, even if you think they're trustworthy.

Just saying, if you're a large enough company (and you don't have to be that large) Microsoft assigns you a personal correspondent to the server and language development teams, a person who also aids you in troubleshooting and debugging.


Great, how useful. Your own M$ drone who sits there and scratches his head. Troubleshooting and debugging can only take you so far. In the end, code needs to get changed and with M$ they're the only ones who can do that. I hope your pet M$ drone is a good bootlicker, because that's probably the only way he'll be able to push your issues to the front of the queue.

3. Microsoft are evil. Windows has major design flaws. I cannot back these statements up with the quotations, references, statistics, anecdotes, and soul-destroying hateful rage that they deserve, so I'll turn to someone who can.

Not to spend too much of my time reading an article that presents only one side of the story, I'll simply say that it's thesis seems to be centered around the argument "Oh Noes Microsoft is a corporation that makes money and they try to make money!" And everything else are just things that you'd expect from, well, a corporation that makes money.

Design flaws: Sure they exist, but it is entirely in Microsoft's best interests to fix them to avoid bad PR and bad software sales. The article also attributes this sort of thing to "bad programming" What's this? A corporation can have bad programmers? No way! If the writer of the article has such a huge problem with it, I would invite him to apply to Microsoft's OS department so that he can personally fix it.


Really? And that's why they have so many? It wouldn't have anything to do with their code quality being shite, would it?
As for bad PR, M$ have a long history of PR failures.

Lack of Innovation: That is hilarious. I can't even dignify this with an answer. Maybe Microsoft is too fed up solving real world problems to have time to provide cutesy little demonstrations to the media of the "next big thing." Google and Apple have the media bent over a couch.


Excuse me, what? Name one actual innovation M$ have introduced which has changed the real-world computing market.
They sure didn't develop JavaScript or the first Web browser. Neither did the develop Java (Which, as much as I hate to admit has changed the real world computing market). They didn't develop a grassroots operating system that now runs most of the worlds internet servers and does so without needing to be rebooted. Similarly, VMWare and other companies developed virtualization to a practical point and M$ is quite late to the game (And pretty much bought into it anyway). Sure they developed DirectX, but PC gaming is basically a joke nowadays anyway. When it comes to filesystems M$ have failed to deliver. Period. Meanwhile, Sun's ZFS file system is out and about and pushing the boundaries and what filesystem technology can do.

So, I reiterate. Name one actual innovation M$ have made that has affected the general computing platform. I'm sitting here on a linux machine, working away and my only interaction with Windows at the moment consists of MySQL Workbench usage, something that will cease when the linux version hits stablility (If they hadn't developed it with .NET this would probably already have happened...)

Industry and Standard Bullying: Depending on how "free radical" and "gotta take down the Man" you are, this can be seen as either destructively manipulating the market or simply trying to implement a productive standard.


M$ do not implement standards. What the hell are you talking about? M$ attitude to standards is:

Embrace, Extend and Extinguish

The develop according to a standard, apply their own extensions and then attempt to extinguish competition by vendor-locking users/developers to their standard.

Seriously, if you don't like Microsoft's products, don't buy them. (I'm talking directly to the writer of the article, not to anyone on this thread who does exactly that)... And don't even begin to claim that Microsoft has some sort of monopoly on the market. That ship sailed years ago. The only thing they have a monopoly on is the Windows platform... Which... they... make.


I don't :-) M$ *had* a monopoly on the market. Their monopoly has failed. Which just goes to show that for all their unpleasant practices and business methods they are unable to remain competitive. Amusing, hmmmmm.

So in summary, Microsoft is a business. They make money by providing value to the industry through the creation of software. And their products are excellent.


I call bullshit on that last sentence. The only people who truly believe M$ products are excellent are hopeless naivettes who've never tried and alternative. Oh, and end users. If you're the former, there's hope. If you're the latter, then you're opinion about how software should be developed is largely irrelevant anyway.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby ian » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:54 am UTC

If 99% of people love a product and think it is excellent but are not experts about whatever it is, and 1% think it is rubbish and are experts, does it automatically mean that it is rubbish?
Not necessarily talking about windows here.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby sio » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:18 am UTC

"Micro$oft"


My personal favorite is "Microshaft". Ever wondered why Vista is so bloated?
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby Area Man » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:26 am UTC

ian wrote:If 99% of people love a product and think it is excellent but are not experts about whatever it is, and 1% think it is rubbish and are experts, does it automatically mean that it is rubbish?
Not necessarily talking about windows here.

If it's a movie or a song then no. If it's code and standards then yes.
You can enjoy many good looking cross-browser websites due to the diligent work of the designers -- who should never have had to work so hard, for example.

sio wrote:Ever wondered why Vista is so bloated?

Because all of the (6?) versions come installed all at once. The features you are allowed to use are enabled by the product key you enter. That's a part of it anyway.... too late/early to come up with a witty answer.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby sio » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:32 am UTC

Area Man wrote:
sio wrote:Ever wondered why Vista is so bloated?

Because all of the (6?) versions come installed all at once. The features you are allowed to use are enabled by the product key you enter. That's a part of it anyway.... too late/early to come up with a witty answer.


Sorry if my post wasn't clear - it was a rhetorical question.

My personal favorite is "Microshaft".


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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby bigstrat2003 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:07 pm UTC

OOPMan wrote:Wake-up kid. C# is not mana from heaven. It is not the worlds most productive language. It may be technically a little superior to Java as a language but that doesn't mean a damn thing. Both Java and C# are eclipsed by other languages when it comes to productivity. Lisp, Haskell and Python all run rings around Java and C# when it comes to getting things done.


You are officially on crack. C# is one of the best languages there is for developing Windows apps (assuming you don't need the performance that C or C++ would offer). Lisp better for getting shit done than C#? Don't make me laugh. If you'd stuck to just claiming Python, you'd still have some credibility, but both Lisp and Haskell are a pale shadow of C# in terms of usefulness.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby sio » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:21 pm UTC

bigstrat2003 wrote:
OOPMan wrote:Wake-up kid. C# is not mana from heaven. It is not the worlds most productive language. It may be technically a little superior to Java as a language but that doesn't mean a damn thing. Both Java and C# are eclipsed by other languages when it comes to productivity. Lisp, Haskell and Python all run rings around Java and C# when it comes to getting things done.


You are officially on crack. C# is one of the best languages there is for developing Windows apps (assuming you don't need the performance that C or C++ would offer). Lisp better for getting shit done than C#? Don't make me laugh. If you'd stuck to just claiming Python, you'd still have some credibility, but both Lisp and Haskell are a pale shadow of C# in terms of usefulness.


Indeed?

If "shit" specifically refers to Windows GUI business apps, then yes, Lisp is less productive than C# (though not Python, not by a long shot). But if you're talking about programming in general, then I have to disagree. Take a Haskell programmer and a C# programmer with approximately equal coding experience and ask them to write, say, a formal proof checker, who do you think would have a workable product first? How about an OCAML programmer? C# is not the be-all-end-all of high-productivity languages.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby bigstrat2003 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:24 pm UTC

Whether it is or not is not the point. The question raised is whether Haskell and Lisp are more productive than C#. They are not.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby OOPMan » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:27 pm UTC

bigstrat2003 wrote:
OOPMan wrote:Wake-up kid. C# is not mana from heaven. It is not the worlds most productive language. It may be technically a little superior to Java as a language but that doesn't mean a damn thing. Both Java and C# are eclipsed by other languages when it comes to productivity. Lisp, Haskell and Python all run rings around Java and C# when it comes to getting things done.


You are officially on crack. C# is one of the best languages there is for developing Windows apps (assuming you don't need the performance that C or C++ would offer). Lisp better for getting shit done than C#? Don't make me laugh. If you'd stuck to just claiming Python, you'd still have some credibility, but both Lisp and Haskell are a pale shadow of C# in terms of usefulness.


Guess what?

The world does not begin and end at Windows apps.

Neither does it begin and end at desktop apps.

When it comes to server-world, where the need for GUIs is a big fat zer0, C# is less useful even than Java. It's just another lumbering, mind-numbingly boring language to code in.

The domain of applications written extends far beyond that of windows and the desktop...

Frankly, given the way Mac OS X is going in terms of usage, I'd bet that C# and Windows will be largely irrelevant within 10 years. Same is probably true of Java, although less likely to be so.

C, Lisp, Haskell, Python, Ruby and all the rest will still be knocking about though...
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby bigstrat2003 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:32 pm UTC

OOPMan wrote:
bigstrat2003 wrote:
OOPMan wrote:Wake-up kid. C# is not mana from heaven. It is not the worlds most productive language. It may be technically a little superior to Java as a language but that doesn't mean a damn thing. Both Java and C# are eclipsed by other languages when it comes to productivity. Lisp, Haskell and Python all run rings around Java and C# when it comes to getting things done.


You are officially on crack. C# is one of the best languages there is for developing Windows apps (assuming you don't need the performance that C or C++ would offer). Lisp better for getting shit done than C#? Don't make me laugh. If you'd stuck to just claiming Python, you'd still have some credibility, but both Lisp and Haskell are a pale shadow of C# in terms of usefulness.


Guess what?

The world does not begin and end at Windows apps.

Neither does it begin and end at desktop apps.

When it comes to server-world, where the need for GUIs is a big fat zer0, C# is less useful even than Java. It's just another lumbering, mind-numbingly boring language to code in.

The domain of applications written extends far beyond that of windows and the desktop...

Frankly, given the way Mac OS X is going in terms of usage, I'd bet that C# and Windows will be largely irrelevant within 10 years. Same is probably true of Java, although less likely to be so.

C, Lisp, Haskell, Python, Ruby and all the rest will still be knocking about though...


Yeah, and Lisp and Haskell will still be the almost never-used languages they are today. My argument isn't that C# is better than every possible language for every possible task. My argument is that C# is a damn good language, and the best language for a significant number of tasks. My argument is that C# is also a damn sight more useful than Lisp or Haskell, which are about as useful as INTERCAL (and about as commonly used).
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby OOPMan » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:37 pm UTC

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

As for C# being a damn good language, I'd say it's that if you consider Java and C++ to be good languages.

I do not consider any of those three "good" languages.

It consider them to be unpleasant, bloated, tedious languages that have, by virtue of corporate adoption, become the choice de rigeur whenever the question of "What language to use?" arises and is answered by business executive.

C++ I'll give a little bit of leeway though, as DMD didn't exist back in the late 80's.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby Shriike » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:59 pm UTC

OOPMan wrote:So, I reiterate. Name one actual innovation M$ have made that has affected the general computing platform. I'm sitting here on a linux machine, working away and my only interaction with Windows at the moment consists of MySQL Workbench usage, something that will cease when the linux version hits stablility (If they hadn't developed it with .NET this would probably already have happened...)

I think Ajax is pretty cool, Microsoft created XMLHttpRequest, which is what makes Ajax cool (in my opinion).
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby MoghLiechty2 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:33 pm UTC

OOPMan wrote:So, I reiterate. Name one actual innovation M$ have made that has affected the general computing platform. I'm sitting here on a linux machine, working away and my only interaction with Windows at the moment consists of MySQL Workbench usage, something that will cease when the linux version hits stablility (If they hadn't developed it with .NET this would probably already have happened...)

In general, the things that Microsoft puts out tend to be acquisitions that they vastly improve. But also in general, these "acquisition" are really only acquisitions of the idea, and then Microsoft actually makes it work.

To take a page from my expertise, there's DirectX and DIrect3D. (OH NO, they acquired this from their Rendermorphics purchase in 1995). Which was... 14 years ago, before anybody had ever heard of it. Now Direct3D is the forefront of realtime graphics technology. Go to any major graphics conference and you will see hundreds of lectures given by people from Microsoft research, a Microsoft Game Studio, or from Microsoft's Direct3D department.

Basically the reason people don't see Microsoft innovation anywhere is because they're too stubborn to look past the "big" revolutionary ideas, screaming at the top of their lungs that these were stolen from other people. Well, if these smaller people were smart or rich enough to make these ideas big on their own, we wouldn't need Microsoft would we?

By the way, Windows 7 is going to rock.

EDIT:
Take a Haskell programmer and a C# programmer with approximately equal coding experience and ask them to write, say, a formal proof checker, who do you think would have a workable product first? How about an OCAML programmer? C# is not the be-all-end-all of high-productivity languages.

Haha, when's the last time at your job you got asked to write a formal proof checker?
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Re: Microsoft Platform Vs. All

Postby ash.gti » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:21 pm UTC

MoghLiechty2 wrote:To take a page from my expertise, there's DirectX and DIrect3D. (OH NO, they acquired this from their Rendermorphics purchase in 1995). Which was... 14 years ago, before anybody had ever heard of it. Now Direct3D is the forefront of realtime graphics technology. Go to any major graphics conference and you will see hundreds of lectures given by people from Microsoft research, a Microsoft Game Studio, or from Microsoft's Direct3D department.


It is true that Windows is really the best option for gaming, but that doesn't hold for everything.

MoghLiechty2 wrote:Basically the reason people don't see Microsoft innovation anywhere is because they're too stubborn to look past the "big" revolutionary ideas, screaming at the top of their lungs that these were stolen from other people. Well, if these smaller people were smart or rich enough to make these ideas big on their own, we wouldn't need Microsoft would we?

By the way, Windows 7 is going to rock.


I am curious... do you think there is any innovation in Windows 7? If so, what?
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby sio » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:37 pm UTC

MoghLiechty2 wrote:
OOPMan wrote:EDIT:
Take a Haskell programmer and a C# programmer with approximately equal coding experience and ask them to write, say, a formal proof checker, who do you think would have a workable product first? How about an OCAML programmer? C# is not the be-all-end-all of high-productivity languages.

Haha, when's the last time at your job you got asked to write a formal proof checker?


Last week, actually.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby Philwelch » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:05 pm UTC

MoghLiechty2 wrote:EDIT:
Take a Haskell programmer and a C# programmer with approximately equal coding experience and ask them to write, say, a formal proof checker, who do you think would have a workable product first? How about an OCAML programmer? C# is not the be-all-end-all of high-productivity languages.

Haha, when's the last time at your job you got asked to write a formal proof checker?


True story: Someone once had the crazy idea to write a let's-find-the-cheapest-vacation-package-we-can-piece-together-for-you program in Lisp. Lisp was far and away the most productive language available:

cite

C# is the best platform for writing computationally non-intensive apps for Microsoft platforms. MoghLiechty, maybe that's your speciality. But there's hundreds of MIS majors every year who are just as qualified as you.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby 0xBADFEED » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:45 pm UTC

sio wrote:Take a Haskell programmer and a C# programmer with approximately equal coding experience and ask them to write, say, a formal proof checker, who do you think would have a workable product first? How about an OCAML programmer?

Theroem-provers and proof-checkers are the bread-and-butter of languages like Haskell and OCaml. It's what they were designed for (especially OCaml).

The comparison is biased and artificial.

It's like saying, "C# is better than OCaml and Haskell because it's easier to write a point-and-click data-entry app in C#".
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby MoghLiechty2 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:03 pm UTC

Philwelch wrote:C# is the best platform for writing computationally non-intensive apps for Microsoft platforms. MoghLiechty, maybe that's your speciality. But there's hundreds of MIS majors every year who are just as qualified as you.

Okay, so maybe originally when I said that C# is the best for every business application, that was a bit much. However, C# definitely does not get the sort of credit it deserves. I think over time, as newer and newer versions of C# come out, that Microsoft will start incorporating a lot of the better elements of other languages, something we've already seen in the latest versions. Until then, you can use whatever language you want. It just bothers me that the hate for Microsoft corporation often spills over into hate for Microsoft's languages.

I guess I really just enjoy being the lone Microsoft defender.
ash.gti wrote:I am curious... do you think there is any innovation in Windows 7? If so, what?

There's not really any huge innovations that will make the evening news, but there are so, so many awesome things that will essentially make it what Vista was supposed to be. It also will hopefull fix every single one of Vista's major flaws. I have the Beta on my laptop right now, and my experience so far has been near-flawless. The "new" features...

sio wrote:
MoghLiechty2 wrote:Haha, when's the last time at your job you got asked to write a formal proof checker?

Last week, actually.

If you're not lying, and you actually are still in your 2nd to last year of high school with a paid Lisp/Haskell/OCAML programming position, that is impressive!
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby sio » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:18 pm UTC

MoghLiechty2 wrote:
Philwelch wrote:C# is the best platform for writing computationally non-intensive apps for Microsoft platforms. MoghLiechty, maybe
sio wrote:
MoghLiechty2 wrote:Haha, when's the last time at your job you got asked to write a formal proof checker?

Last week, actually.

If you're not lying, and you actually are still in your 2nd to last year of high school with a paid Lisp/Haskell/OCAML programming position, that is impressive!


I'm not lying. I never said it was paid. Work is work, whether you get money for it or not.

0xBADFEED wrote:
sio wrote:It's like saying, "C# is better than OCaml and Haskell because it's easier to write a point-and-click data-entry app in C#".


What? No it's not. Not if you don't try to do it purely imperatively.

Fine, let me give you another example. Red-black tree. How complex would your C# code be? How long would it take you to write? How about something big, like a game AI?
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby 0xBADFEED » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:07 am UTC

sio wrote:What? No it's not. Not if you don't try to do it purely imperatively.

It is easier to do a vanilla point-and-click data-entry app in C#. Data binding UI libraries, good UI building integration in VS, etc. swing that battle in C#'s favor.
sio wrote:Fine, let me give you another example. Red-black tree. How complex would your C# code be? How long would it take you to write? How about something big, like a game AI?

I don't know. I don't work in C#.
Functional languages tend to be great for tree datastructures/algorithms and AI largely due to pattern-matching facilities. The AI is probably easier to do in OCaml or Haskell. How about the rest of the game? Does the ease of implementing the AI in one of those languages offset the work required to make a binding layer to whatever else the rest of the game is written in? You're not going to write the rest of the game in either of those, the tool support just isn't there.

I like OCaml a lot and would rather program in it than most other languages. I wasn't suggesting C# was superior, merely pointing out the bias in your claim.
sio wrote:I'm not lying. I never said it was paid. Work is work, whether you get money for it or not.

<whoosh...> And that's the sound of his argument going right over your head.

The point is... for most professional programmers the best language is the one that does what they want with the least effort. Most professional programmers don't care what the best language for writing a proof-checker is (unless that's their job); they care what the best language for doing their job is. For the vast majority this means writing business data-entry apps, doing web-dev, creating reports, querying databases, lots of systems glue code, etc. Sadly, Java and C# are the kings in this arena for many many reasons (some good some bad). Regardless of how badass Haskell, OCaml, and their bretheren might be there's a a whole marginal-utitlity argument here. If no one's going to pay you to code in a particular language, then it is pretty much useless for a professional programmer. I don't necessarily agree with that. I'm always learning new languages because I like to, but the logic is sound.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby Shriike » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:27 am UTC

I like 0xBADFEED. In both threads he seems to have just completely crushed the opposition. That being said I don't like Microsoft so I really shouldn't feel this good, but it was a beautiful argument to read.
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Re: Microsoft Platform Vs. All

Postby ash.gti » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:59 am UTC

Back to the discussion...

I use OS X with MacPorts, TextMate and occasionally Xcode for my development purposes. Almost everything I use is open source (ruby, mysql, postgresql, apache, various *BSD and linux libraries).

With my development suite I can download just about any open source library with a single command (port) and just about everything will work on any unix environment.

I have used Visual Studio 5 ish years ago but from what I remember it didn't have any specific tool that made my life any easier. But I don't have a Windows computer anymore so I what do I know /shrug
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby sio » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:19 am UTC

0xBADFEED wrote:
<whoosh...> And that's the sound of his argument going right over your head.



Actually, no. I understood what he was saying; I just disagree.

I interpreted his argument as positing, in essence, that learning C# will get you the most money. I implied that I don't give a crap. There's more to coding than paychecks. I will use whatever language is best for a task. I've never found a task that can be done in C# that can't be done more easily in Python, OCaml or ANSI C.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby MoghLiechty2 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:42 am UTC

Sounds like you don't necessarily disagree, it's more like you don't care because you'd rather it not be about the money. Sadly, unless you're a professor, making money is all the real world cares about. And I take issue with professors teaching students as if the real world was every bit the same as their own little research world.

What's wrong with making money anyway? Somebody's gotta do it. And ...sigh... I guess if nobody else is gonna do it, I'll go ahead and take free cash... If I must... :cry:
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby sio » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:16 am UTC

MoghLiechty2 wrote:Sounds like you don't necessarily disagree, it's more like you don't care because you'd rather it not be about the money. Sadly, unless you're a professor, making money is all the real world cares about. And I take issue with professors teaching students as if the real world was every bit the same as their own little research world.

What's wrong with making money anyway? Somebody's gotta do it. And ...sigh... I guess if nobody else is gonna do it, I'll go ahead and take free cash... If I must... :cry:


Well, depends on what I'm supposed to be agreeing/disagreeing with.

This

both Lisp and Haskell are a pale shadow of C# in terms of usefulness.


is bullshit, and that is what I'm disagreeing with.

However, it's just a fact that C# experience will get you more available jobs than Python, OCaml, Haskell or Lisp. This is the part that I don't care about.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby bigstrat2003 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:13 pm UTC

sio wrote:This

both Lisp and Haskell are a pale shadow of C# in terms of usefulness.


is bullshit, and that is what I'm disagreeing with.

However, it's just a fact that C# experience will get you more available jobs than Python, OCaml, Haskell or Lisp. This is the part that I don't care about.


So it's bullshit, but you then go on to prove it. If Lisp and Haskell were so useful, they'd get used a lot. People aren't stupid, they use the tool that's the best for what they're doing.

Lisp and Haskell are fine when you're just dicking around for your own pleasure, but in the real world, they're nigh worthless.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby 0xBADFEED » Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:42 pm UTC

sio wrote:I've never found a task that can be done in C# that can't be done more easily in ...<drumroll>... ANSI C. <rimshot>

Please... OK, this is just ridiculous.
I'm now convinced you've never used C# or C.
String processing immediately comes to mind. Ever try to do much non-trivial string-processing in C? String-processing tends to be a fairly important part of most real-world applications.

It's fine if you have a beef with MS, hate .Net, and by extension C#. But this claim just hurts any credibility you might have had.
sio wrote:I interpreted his argument as positing, in essence, that learning C# will get you the most money. I implied that I don't give a crap. There's more to coding than paychecks. I will use whatever language is best for a task.

Are you planning on becoming a professional software developer?

If you aren't then it's fine for you to not care. You're not trying to earn a living coding. You can use whatever you want for your hobby.

If you are, I think I saw in this thread somewhere that you're still in high school, you can afford to "not care" for a few more years. But, when you go out to get a job you will most likely have to work in some language that isn't necessarily your favorite. C# can pay the bills.
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Re: Microsoft Platform Vs. All

Postby Philwelch » Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:46 pm UTC

C# pays my bills (along with some Perl), but on the same token, Lisp has produced its share of fortunes, too. Paul Graham's Viaweb, Orbitz, and game developer NaughtyDog are among these.

If you want to make a comfortable yearly salary working for the man, C# will do it. If you want to make millions in a startup though, Lisp isn't a bad idea.

Incidentally, there are just as many folks who get their bills paid with Java as with C#, and almost as many with C++.
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Re: Microsoft Platform Vs. All

Postby 0xBADFEED » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:36 pm UTC

Philwelch wrote:Lisp has produced its share of fortunes, too... If you want to make millions in a startup though, Lisp isn't a bad idea.

I wasn't suggesting that you can't be successful in other languages. But making millions in a startup using Lisp or any other niche/fringe language is a very poor plan, realistically (especially straight out of uni). Better to have that be a reach goal. That can be Plan-A, but you still need a pretty serious Plan-B. Jobs using Java or C# make good Plan-B's.
Philwelch wrote:Incidentally, there are just as many folks who get their bills paid with Java as with C#, and almost as many with C++.

C++ pays my bills at the moment.
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Re: Microsoft Vs. All

Postby sio » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:07 pm UTC

0xBADFEED wrote:
sio wrote:I've never found a task that can be done in C# that can't be done more easily in ...<drumroll>... ANSI C. <rimshot>

Please... OK, this is just ridiculous.
I'm now convinced you've never used C# or C.
String processing immediately comes to mind. Ever try to do much non-trivial string-processing in C? String-processing tends to be a fairly important part of most real-world applications.

It's fine if you have a beef with MS, hate .Net, and by extension C#. But this claim just hurts any credibility you might have had.
sio wrote:I interpreted his argument as positing, in essence, that learning C# will get you the most money. I implied that I don't give a crap. There's more to coding than paychecks. I will use whatever language is best for a task.

Are you planning on becoming a professional software developer?

If you aren't then it's fine for you to not care. You're not trying to earn a living coding. You can use whatever you want for your hobby.

If you are, I think I saw in this thread somewhere that you're still in high school, you can afford to "not care" for a few more years. But, when you go out to get a job you will most likely have to work in some language that isn't necessarily your favorite. C# can pay the bills.


Did you even read my post? Quoting me out of context, completely missing my point and deleting two thirds of what I said to make your post look better indicates that you didn't.

Python, OCaml or ANSI C


*or*. |, not &.

if (a || b || c) {d();} Think about it.

I'm not going to use ANSI C for string processing. But I'm not going to use C# either. C# is not some silver bullet that is magically the best tool for every job. I would use Python or OCaml for string processing, and C for jobs where I need hardware access or C-speed.
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