Police misbehavior thread

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LaserGuy
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:33 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Sure, but it says something about the culture of the police force that this happened. And it's a persistent problem... just a few years ago, 17 officers in the Baltimore PD faced federal charges (14 guilty pleas) for another racketeering scheme, with 37 additional officers implicated.


Do we have any numbers on corruption in police versus other fields though? I've personally seen a ton of corruption in educational administration, for example, but its rarely spoken about. Police corruption, like almost any other government corruption, tends to be more visible, but I do wonder how different it is compared to other fields. Banking or other wall street business seem ripe for it, what with the amount of money moving around. Any industry where kickbacks are stereotypical would also seem to fall under the corruption umbrella, like construction.

I very much question whether police corruption is more abnormal than other corruption. Now, I can posit that the police should in fact be far LESS corrupt (due to their influence and impact on people's lives) than other fields.


I don't even know how to answer that in a way that makes sense. Police have a lot more power and authority than most other fields... they have a much higher capacity for corruption, and the effects of police corruption are both wide-reaching and more difficult to resolve because it is the police themselves that are responsible with stopping corruption.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:00 pm UTC

I don't disagree with any of that. Aside corruption at a high government level (like in the case of dictators and the like) police corruption certainly has large impact. I said that in my previous post. What I'd want to know is how common corruption is in the police vs anywhere else. Is it inherently something to do with the power the police wield? Or is it just the "normal" corruption that has a bigger impact? If it's more systemic in police (or other law enforcement) than anywhere else, perhaps in reality a new paradigm of legal enforcement is needed. If it's not, then perhaps you simply treat the "symptoms" so to speak.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:47 pm UTC

The severity of the corruption in the police is to be expected. Look at who they deal with. I doubt that it can be quantified, but it isn't really new. A cop named Serpico turned on the NYPD in the 69's or 70's, speculation was that they set him up to be shot. The toy gun in this case is a distraction, the Baltimore case is about money, drug money.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Ginger » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:52 pm UTC

When you are dealing with dangerous, violent, strung out/addicted/cray cray criminals the answer is NOT to skirt your own rules and shoot them dead to deal and cope more effectively with your dangerous job. The answer, in my opinions at least, should be: More care is taken, not less. Hand waving away cops' rampant corruptions and abuses of their weaponry and powers is, at best, foolish and at worst actively misrepresenting the states of our current police forces. The answer to such dangerous, corruptible situations is to treat them all with the care and careful attentions they deserve, look at your rules carefully and deliberately make plans of actions before just, like, charging in and flash banging or shooting peoples dead? And the cops, need to do that, like Now: They Need to start using diplomacy instead of barking orders, talking to suspects and finding out what they did and thought they were doing Before it gets to violence? The cops aren't doing that, and like MW, they justify it because they are putting their lives on the lines to deal with dangerous criminals.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:36 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:quarter of people killed by cops black. Doesn't exclude suicide by cop or car accidents, but whatever.

According to the article black people are three times as likely to be killed by police as white people, so that contradicts your point.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:52 pm UTC

And is that more or less than number of times more likely they are to be harassed/arrested by the cops?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:47 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:total arrests by race

On a phone, so forgive me, grabbing the next thing before it times out. Will edit soon.

quarter of people killed by cops black. Doesn't exclude suicide by cop or car accidents, but whatever.

Can't find a better source, later when I get home. Basically, black people make up a slightly higher percent of arrests than they do deaths from the police, even more when you exclude stuff like DUI and such, not that drunk driving has not led to cops shooting people (I'm reminded of that bodycam footage of a cop shooting a drunk black guy as he tried to drive away). So basically it appears that black people are arrested far more often than white people, for whatever reason (large part racism), but the police kill a smaller percentage of black people they are trying to detain (if we assume black people and white people escape arrest at the same rate).


I feel like this effect should have a name, but I can't think of it what it is, so I'll just try to illustrate. Essentially, yes, it's possible that white people have a higher proportion of deaths from police due to the fact that they are generally less likely to be detained for minor infractions. Take an extreme example, suppose that the only crime that police ever bothered to arrest white people for was murder. Because murder is a rare, but violent crime, we'd naturally expect there to be a rather high proportion of violent altercations between white people and police relative to the number of arrests. Conversely, if black people are detained for every possible infraction of the law, real or imagined, then relative to the number of black people arrested by police, the proportion of violent encounters will be lower, because it's not likely that every jaywalking incident is going to escalate into a violent shootout

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:48 pm UTC

Already named; Simpson's paradox.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:25 pm UTC

I made the post WAY earlier in the thread about this and it does seem to support what CorruptUser was saying:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=84861&hilit=Chen&start=2400#p3699643

It isn't that cops are particularly bloodthirsty about killing black people, but more they profile black people more, resulting in more arrests and more encounters with them, which then leads to more overall killings.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:37 pm UTC

The point is not only are they more likely to be arrested, black people are also more likely to be shot, as is clearly stated in the article. That they might also get stopped by police a whole lot more than white people isn't an indication that the problem isn't as big as we thought it was, it's an indication there's systemic issues happening at every level of interaction of black people with the police.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:41 pm UTC

Zohar, I think you and I are miscommuniting around the mathematical term "given".

Illustrative numbers now. 10000 black people, 10000 white. Assume all attempts at arrest result in arrest or death, ignoring escapes for this. The police attempt to arrest 900 black people, kill 3. They attempt to arrest 100 white people, kill 1.

Given that a person is black, 3 in 10000 chance of being killed by cops.
Given that a person is white, 1 in 10000.
Given that a person is being arrested, theres a 1 in 250 chance of being killed.
Given that a white person is being arrested, it's 1 in 100.
Given if a black person being arrested it's 1 in 300.

Its obvious there is a problem, but this would imply that part of the problem is the sheer number of black arrests rather than the alleged murder-boner that cops have. Reduce the stop and frisk, reduce the racial profiling, reduce all the other harassment, and you won't have as many cas- SHOOT HIM HES GOT A WALLET!!!

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:29 pm UTC

Again, I was literally quoting the article you posted that said blacks are thrice as likely to be shot as whites. They don't quote their research or statistics so I can't judge them for myself but it certainly reads as whatever chance a white person encountering the police has of getting shot, a black person would have three times as much.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:05 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Again, I was literally quoting the article you posted that said blacks are thrice as likely to be shot as whites. They don't quote their research or statistics so I can't judge them for myself but it certainly reads as whatever chance a white person encountering the police has of getting shot, a black person would have three times as much.

Do you believe that blacks are more likely to be shot, all else equal, by the police?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:43 am UTC

Zohar wrote:Again, I was literally quoting the article you posted that said blacks are thrice as likely to be shot as whites. They don't quote their research or statistics so I can't judge them for myself but it certainly reads as whatever chance a white person encountering the police has of getting shot, a black person would have three times as much.


Theres a link right after that statement to where they sre pulling numbers from.

They show us population is 13% black and 63% white. All police killings show its 27% black and 43% white. Im assuming they normalized it compared to the overall population distribution to get the "3 times as likely" number. If you look at the other link I posted the "death while arrested vs total arrests" the number comes out pretty close (29.9% black people killed during arrest and an arrest rate of 28.4%). The arrest rate of 28.4 vs the population at 13% seems to be the big issue.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:29 pm UTC

More misconduct allegations surface against deputy; sheriff sends case to DA

  • The number of women accusing San Diego County Sheriff’s Deputy Richard Fischer of sexual misconduct in legal claims or lawsuits has climbed to 14.
  • The department says it has completed its investigation and referred its findings to the District Attorney’s Office.
  • Fischer remains on paid leave and has not been arrested, more than a month after several women came forward and publicly expressed concern that he was receiving special treatment.


Again, I feel the need to point out that both the Sheriff and DA will be on the June 5 ballot. Their handling of the case is likely to be a top campaign issue.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:40 am UTC

Mostly what the statistics quoted above show, is that we have an embarrassing lack of statistics that help us reach any useful conclusions. Mostly what the statistics support is cherry picking. Cherry pick one set and you can prove racism, "So there;" cherry pick them another way and you can prove there's no racism (or even reverse racism), "So there." I.e., political one-upmanship.

For example, we don't actually know how often blacks are stopped versus whites, or what the outcomes of those stops are. We don't actually know if the high crime rates reported for black neighborhoods are due to a real disparity in crime rate or in categorization of acts. (Such as in Ferguson, Missouri, where we do know that, if a black and a white jaywalk, the black is far more likely to be ticketed. That is, for more serious crimes--simple assault, robbery--are the police more likely to charge blacks? Give a more serious charge for the same act? Don't know, not in a useful way.)

Washington Post is building a database of police killings, and unlike the above they might have reached a useful conclusion, though a lot of their statistics are subject to cherry picking as well.

"The only thing that was significant in predicting whether someone shot and killed by police was unarmed was whether or not they were black," said Justin Nix, a criminal-justice researcher at the University of Louisville and one of the report's authors, said in April. "Crime variables did not matter in terms of predicting whether the person killed was unarmed."

"This just bolsters our confidence that there is some sort of implicit bias going on," Nix said. "Officers are perceiving a greater threat when encountered by unarmed black citizens."
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:08 pm UTC

Coyne wrote:Mostly what the statistics quoted above show, is that we have an embarrassing lack of statistics that help us reach any useful conclusions. Mostly what the statistics support is cherry picking. Cherry pick one set and you can prove racism, "So there;" cherry pick them another way and you can prove there's no racism (or even reverse racism), "So there." I.e., political one-upmanship.

I'd like to point out that in general, with government entities, if there is a lack of statistical data to analyze issues and there are entities resisting the gathering of this data, it is pretty fair to assume that those resisting are trying to obfuscate issues that this data could be used to clarify. Some agencies have legitimate reasons to hide data (intelligence for example) but I find it hard to see a legitimate reason not to gather killings. Adding one more mandatory form when ever a police officer kills someone is not an overly burdensome paperwork load.

"The only thing that was significant in predicting whether someone shot and killed by police was unarmed was whether or not they were black," said Justin Nix, a criminal-justice researcher at the University of Louisville and one of the report's authors, said in April. "Crime variables did not matter in terms of predicting whether the person killed was unarmed."

"This just bolsters our confidence that there is some sort of implicit bias going on," Nix said. "Officers are perceiving a greater threat when encountered by unarmed black citizens."

If a lot higher percentage of this group is being approached by the police (which is certainly true), this could still just be measuring the underlying "blacks are guilty" racism and not a "blacks are a greater threat" racism. You really need the full data set of police interactions to work determine this this and without some automated bodycam counting mechanism (which we should probably be able to do), I don't see any way to reliably get this data without requiring an insane amount of paper work.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:15 am UTC

idonno wrote:...underlying "blacks are guilty" racism and not a "blacks are a greater threat" racism.

Are those really different problems?
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:41 am UTC

Coyne wrote:
idonno wrote:...underlying "blacks are guilty" racism and not a "blacks are a greater threat" racism.

Are those really different problems?

I think so. If it is the former, policies and training designed to equalize interaction rates fixes the shooting differential as well. If it is the latter, overruling someones instinctual reaction for self preservation is a much tougher nut to crack and we are faced with a likely hopeless task of trying to root out whatever social training people are getting that causes this. The only real answer is to try and get rid of bad officers after they have stepped over the line and wait for less racist people to grow up into cops.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:55 pm UTC

idonno wrote:I'd like to point out that in general, with government entities, if there is a lack of statistical data to analyze issues and there are entities resisting the gathering of this data, it is pretty fair to assume that those resisting are trying to obfuscate issues that this data could be used to clarify.

Citation Needed

Adding one more mandatory form when ever a police officer kills someone is not an overly burdensome paperwork load.

From my understanding, police officers already fill out this type of paperwork. The problem is with collecting and sorting it all. It is like how even though all the papers needed to give veterans health care exist, they are not receiving health care do to processing issues.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:58 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
idonno wrote:I'd like to point out that in general, with government entities, if there is a lack of statistical data to analyze issues and there are entities resisting the gathering of this data, it is pretty fair to assume that those resisting are trying to obfuscate issues that this data could be used to clarify.

Citation Needed

Adding one more mandatory form when ever a police officer kills someone is not an overly burdensome paperwork load.

From my understanding, police officers already fill out this type of paperwork. The problem is with collecting and sorting it all. It is like how even though all the papers needed to give veterans health care exist, they are not receiving health care do to processing issues.

I just posted about how police don't even bother filling paperwork when they shoot people. There's no inclination or will to look under rocks. With good reason, you'll usually get a dirty cop in trouble if you look. It's easier to not look and claim how all cops have Sterling records.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:03 pm UTC

Sorry. I misunderstood you. I though you meant that the form does not exist when you actually meant that the form is not filled out.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:34 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
idonno wrote:I'd like to point out that in general, with government entities, if there is a lack of statistical data to analyze issues and there are entities resisting the gathering of this data, it is pretty fair to assume that those resisting are trying to obfuscate issues that this data could be used to clarify.

Citation Needed

This is a general opinion not a scientific fact. I'm sure any attempt to get statistical data to back it up would be actively resisted by many agencies.

In all seriousness, are you arguing that it isn't fair to assume people actively trying to prevent the gathering of statistical information are trying to obfuscate something?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:11 pm UTC

I was asking for a study or report that showed that people reluctant to gather information were found of wrong doing once the information was gathered. In other words, how often does an investigation lead to the discovery of criminal action?

In general, I am saying that generalizations based on limited data are inaccurate.

Spoiler:
Let's estimate that on average every page on this thread contains 1 article accusing the police of wrong doing and that each article implicates 10 officers. The Bureau of Justice Statistics reports that in 2012 the Uniform Crime Reporting program, which has been run by the FBI since 1930, gives the lower limit of officers in the USA to be ~1,000,000. If no two articles on this thread implicate the same officer, then a quick calculation shows that a randomly picked officer will have never misused his position, p < 0.0015. If the same calculation is done with only sworn officers, then p < 0.002.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:39 pm UTC

If you're curious how much misconduct is reported every year, why not just google a study instead of counting based off anecdotal evidence? Here's a basic google, https://www.policemisconduct.net/npmsrp ... cs-report/
1% of cops are likely involved in misconduct, how's that for a starting point. Then the question becomes, when a cop does something wrong, is there something cheap and easy that can correct it? Are basic procedures being followed up? For example, say your office accountants lost your paycheck 1% of the time. Do you just throw up your hands? No, basic stuff happens first, like did you bother hiring the right people? Was a background check conducted? Then basic follow ups, was there a report of misconduct filed? Did anyone investigate?

Right now there's a lot of low hanging fruit that can be picked, but the police union blocks most of it. If there's an incident, nothing is checked, no retraining happens, no extra questions get asked. If a cop causes too much trouble? Transfer him into a poor precinct who will happily look the other way as he's a cop willing to work for cheap.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:13 pm UTC

I am not saying that there is no work to be done or that any amount of crooked cops is acceptable. What I am saying is that assuming that all cops are corrupt is a mistake.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:27 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:I am not saying that there is no work to be done or that any amount of crooked cops is acceptable. What I am saying is that assuming that all cops are corrupt is a mistake.

Saying that all cops are innocent is a bigger mistake. You end up with people assuming the cop is always right, and deciding it's not worth it to investigate. When there's an incident, investigate it, for real, not the halfass stuff we hear about. You can save the "don't assume he's guilty" until after the system for police officers resembles the system everyone else works under.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:30 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:randomly picked officer will have never misused his position, p < 0.0015.
No, it shows that a randomly picked officer will not have been accused, on this thread, of misusing his (or her) position. There's a bit of a difference, nest paw?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:22 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:I was asking for a study or report that showed that people reluctant to gather information were found of wrong doing once the information was gathered. In other words, how often does an investigation lead to the discovery of criminal action?

In general, I am saying that generalizations based on limited data are inaccurate.


I never said anything about "criminal". I have been involved in fights to get information before. Most of the time, someone has done a bad job with something and doesn't want to be embarrassed. Often the embarrassment comes from how poor a job they do gathering and validating data.

Also, being fair and likelihood of accuracy are not the same thing. It is fair to make the assumption because the person being called into question is the very same person who is preventing a better analysis that may well clear them. On the other hand, if you assume something else, it allows people to cover information up without much consequence which can be very unfair to anyone suffering as a result. If they don't like the pressure of this assumption they and only they have the power to change the situation while potential victims are powerless. So, yes I think in general it is fair to assume that and no there is no research behind an opinion on what is and is not fair.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:18 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:I was asking for a study or report that showed that people reluctant to gather information were found of wrong doing once the information was gathered. In other words, how often does an investigation lead to the discovery of criminal action?

And how would anyone know this?

This is the government that we are talking about, they have annual statistics on how many people were hurt by popped champagne corks. If there is an area of our lives on which the government does not have statistics...well, not having statistics is so unusual that it requires motivation to not have statistics. And what would the motivation be in this case?

Does it prove corruption? No, of course not. It does suggest very strongly that someone doesn't want ANYONE to find out if there's any corruption.

Ignoring cops for the moment, we understand why people would have a motivation to prevent discovery of corruption, because criminals have that motivation all the time.

And we return to: cops are people.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:20 pm UTC

in a completely shocking turn of events here are some cops who were working with nazis to prosecute anti racist activists.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:15 pm UTC

natraj wrote:in a completely shocking turn of events here are some cops who were working with nazis to prosecute anti racist activists.
There's a lot of bits in this article which I found amazing but a definite highlight:

The Article wrote:The officer’s write-up about an African American anti-fascist activist included a photo of him at the hospital after the rally and noted that he had been stabbed in the abdomen, chest and hand.

Ayres, however, treated the protester like a suspect in the investigation. The police investigator recommended the man be charged with 11 offenses, including disturbing the peace, conspiracy, assault, unlawful assembly and wearing a mask to evade police.

As evidence, Ayres provided Facebook photos of the man holding up his fist. The officer wrote that the man’s “Black Power salute” and his “support for anti-racist activism” demonstrated his “intent and motivation to violate the civil rights” of the neo-Nazi group. He was ultimately not charged.
'Hey, remember that black guy who got stabbed, like, three times at the rally? I found a picture of him on Facebook where he's holding up a clenched fist. What do you think we can charge him with?'

'I dunno. Hey, remember the neo-Nazi who probably stabbed him? The one we're not prosecuting? He just got arrested on some unrelated domestic abuse charge. Let's stop by his cell and ask him if he's got any ideas.'

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:37 am UTC

in continuing "cops can do literally whatever the hell they want to black people and get away with it because of course they can" news a columbus police officer who was filmed stomping on the head of a suspect who was restrained and lying down just got their job back because... why not! who cares. certainly the columbus police don't care. the ultimate ruling was that the cop used more force than necessary but there was no evidence he was trying to hurt the suspect. who, i remind you, he stomped the head of while lying down in handcuffs. on video.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:14 am UTC

Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:56 am UTC


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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:50 pm UTC

In Baltimore, firing is also not something they jump to real quick. Five years of overt criminal behavior....staging crime scenes, stealing money for personal gain....

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/06/us/b ... ption.html

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:00 pm UTC

Yup. The institutional protections and secrecy that let bad officers hide behind their badges occur in the San Diego County Sheriff's Department, too, and elsewhere in California. From the previous page of this thread:

On Rare Occasions, the Sheriff Has to Sue to Keep Problem Deputies off the Job

San Diego County Sheriff Bill Gore occasionally has to sue to keep fired deputies from returning to the job. In some cases, even that doesn’t work.

In June, Gore filed a lawsuit against the county’s Civil Service Commission – an independent review board to which county employees can appeal disciplinary actions – alleging the commission had abused its discretion by reinstating Jeffrey Hornacek, a deputy fired earlier this year because Gore decided he was incompetent and unfit for public service.

The case provides a rare look at officer discipline proceedings in a state that keeps such information under lock and key. Though Sheriff’s Department data from the past nine years shows it’s relatively rare for fired deputies to be reinstated, it does happen.


The article goes on to detail just how horrifyingly incompetent Deputy Hornacek was, which is interesting in its own right. But the lack of transparency surrounding officer discipline points to a broader, systemic problem in law enforcement.

The nation’s largest law enforcement agencies fired at least 1,881 officers for misconduct since 2006, the Washington Post reported earlier this month. Those departments, however, were forced to reinstate at least 450 deputies after they appealed those decisions to a review panel – including a police officer who challenged a handcuffed man to fight him for the chance to be released and another officer convicted of sexually abusing a young woman in his patrol car.

Absent from the Washington Post story, however, were any examples from California. That’s at least partly because the state has some of the most restrictive laws in the country when it comes to the release of information on law enforcement agencies and the officers they employ.

In fact, the only reason the information has been made public in Hornacek’s case is because Gore took the rare step of suing the county to keep him off the force.

Through the early 2000s, Civil Service Commission hearings in which deputies appealed disciplinary decisions were open to the public. But after 2006, as a result of the landmark Copley Press v. Superior Court case, those meetings were closed. That means instances of police and deputy misconduct remain largely hidden from public view.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:31 am UTC

Md recently had an "accident" wherein names of all arresting officers were being removed from the public facing database. Could see the personal details for attorneys and such, but not the arresting officers.

It was not described as an accident until AFTER the public outcry which got it reversed, of course. And it was duly passed as a law.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:06 am UTC

The problem also extends to those elements, such as police unions, who resist the idea of non-lethal force.

Police Union Boss Attacks New DA For Daring To Speak To Police Recruits About Deadly Force
In all fairness...



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