Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:46 pm UTC

Citation needed
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:58 pm UTC

bantler wrote:They are certainly free to present themselves as low-class thugs, but then they shouldn't expect to be treated positively when they refuse to patronize the establishment they are camping at.


wow so you're really just jumping both feet in to showing your own hugely racist bias here that's good to know.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:58 pm UTC

natraj wrote:The starbucks manager and the cops were both wrong here and it's tiring but unsurprising to me that so many people defend what happened as "well that's just how it had to be."

the world we live in, the world y'all are actively defending with that rationale, is a world where for the crime of existing while black, it is acceptable and justified that i get thrown out of public businesses and then arrested when trying to explain my calm, quiet, peaceful black existence.

As one of those who you might be characterising as 'well that's just how it had to be' I feel you are missing half of what I'm saying.

I'm saying that's how it has to be in the moment - the police don't have the luxury of hindsight like we do: If they are told someone is trespassing and causing a disturbance then they have to take a precautionary approach and escort the person out.

If subsequently it's discovered that the report was incorrect there are a myriad of ways it can be redressed: The person making the false police report might be fired (as happened here), the person falsely reported can file a civil lawsuit (as will likely happen here) and may win a ton of damages (as will likely happen here).

So when you talk of people like me 'defending that rationale', please bear in mind I am defending the process in its entirety. From the 'getting thrown out of a public business without good cause' portion to the 'picking up a fat cheque for getting thrown out of a public business without good cause' part.

Yes, many minorities suffer prejudice without filing a suit about it, but then personally I believe in Universal Legal Aid just as I believe in Universal Healthcare, so if I had my way there'd be more justice on that side of things also.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:04 pm UTC

bantler wrote:They are certainly free to present themselves as low-class thugs

Okay just fuck off.

elasto wrote:If they are told someone is trespassing and causing a disturbance then they have to take a precautionary approach and escort the person out.
They don't have to do that, no. They can instead take two seconds to independently assess the situation (and listen to the dozen or so people around them telling them these guys weren't doing anything) and then not take the person or persons out in handcuffs.

But even if they did have to do that, they don't subsequently have to detain them for nine hours.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:05 pm UTC

except no the police really don't! have to just believe people that someone is causing a disturbance when there is NO SIGN they are causing a disturbance. they literally do not have to. they can use their judgement and say sorry but this person is doing nothing wrong, and go!

which they do! when it's white people. but black people are seen as criminal by the fact of our existence so suddenly the Police Judgement Call is heavily swayed against us.

but the police are not actually obligated to just listen to literally any rando who accuses someone of a crime and arrest them. that's not how they operate in general! at all! MANY TIMES if you call the cops and they show up and there is no actual sign of Ongoing Crime they will be like okay nothing we can do and leave.

but when they show up and arrest black people who are doing nothing wrong, people fall over themselves to explain that's just the system and how it has to be.

which is not just a terribly broken system it's not factually true. i mean our system is terribly terribly broken in lots and lots of ways but "the police are robots whose mandatory programming requires them to act on every call they receive as though it is 100% true" is not part of the system.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:10 pm UTC

I saw the video with the bike cops. What kind of dapper criminal organizations do you have in your area where those black guys would be considered dressing like "low class thugs"? Did the Gucci-Gang start another turf war with The Lords of Liberace?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:10 pm UTC

Given how much a Brazilian electrician in a lightweight jacket resembles a Somali terrorist in a suicide vest, I wouldn't worry much about being mistaken for a homeless person or drug addict if I went "white with beard" into a US diner.

Yes, really: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_ ... de_Menezes

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby bantler » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:20 pm UTC

People who adopt the aesthetic of a punker, metal-head, skin-head, black-panther, thug etc. also adopt the attitude and perception. They have freely and gladly chosen the perception of menacing. It's not racist to be afraid of people who purposefully dress and act to intimidate. That's exactly how they want people to feel.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:23 pm UTC

natraj wrote:except no the police really don't! have to just believe people that someone is causing a disturbance when there is NO SIGN they are causing a disturbance. they literally do not have to. they can use their judgement and say sorry but this person is doing nothing wrong, and go!

Either you are missing something here or I am.

A private business can refuse entry to anyone they like for any reason. If the person doesn't leave they are trespassing. Trespassing is a crime. Police are there to prevent crime.

If it turns out the business refused entry for a reason that breaks Civil Rights laws then they can be sued. But that is a process that takes time: CCTV footage has to be requisitioned, witnesses interviewed and so on, and, crucially, a pattern of prejudice established whereby minorities are treated substantially differently to non-minorities. None of that can be reliably determined by the police in the heat of the moment: All they have to go on is the business saying 'this person is here without permission and refuses to leave'.

As I say, I'd make the process of redress much easier so people would be far more hesitant to use the police to enforce their prejudices. Making the police 'judge, jury and executioner' as you propose seems to carry its own risks.
Last edited by elasto on Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:27 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Weeks » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:26 pm UTC

bantler wrote:punker, metal-head, skin-head, black-panther, thug etc.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:39 pm UTC

bantler wrote:People who adopt the aesthetic of a punker, metal-head, skin-head, black-panther, thug etc. also adopt the attitude and perception. They have freely and gladly chosen the perception of menacing. It's not racist to be afraid of people who purposefully dress and act to intimidate. That's exactly how they want people to feel.
No seriously fuck off.

Just because you're intimidated by someone doesn't mean they dressed to intimidate you. It sometimes just means you're an easily frightened racist.

Are you also the kind of shit who is attracted to someone and then concludes that they must have dressed to attract you?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby bantler » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:51 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
bantler wrote:People who adopt the aesthetic of a punker, metal-head, skin-head, black-panther, thug etc. also adopt the attitude and perception. They have freely and gladly chosen the perception of menacing. It's not racist to be afraid of people who purposefully dress and act to intimidate. That's exactly how they want people to feel.
No seriously fuck off.

Just because you're intimidated by someone doesn't mean they dressed to intimidate you. It sometimes just means you're an easily frightened racist.

Are you also the kind of shit who is attracted to someone and then concludes that they must have dressed to attract you?


Dude, you can't honestly expect a guy to not be nervous around folks who purposely intend to look menacing. Lots of people enjoy being scary and intimidating; especially in groups.

And of course I'm attracted to people who try to be attractive. This isn't Bizarro world.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:59 pm UTC

Again, dude, where the hell did you grow up that these two guys would've been dressed like "low class thugs"? I'm sorry that you had to get caught in the middle of a dance off between the Dukes of Dolce and Gabbana-Rama before they put aside their differences to control the local supply of leather from Victoria's Secret Society in a catwalk that resulted in so many bystanders with stitched up laces.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Weeks » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:02 pm UTC

These black men and their menacing outfits...so scary you know!!
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:03 pm UTC

bantler wrote:More likely classist.
I posit that if these black business-men were dressed for business instead of beards and sweatpants there wouldn't have been an incident.
They are certainly free to present themselves as low-class thugs, but then they shouldn't expect to be treated positively when they refuse to patronize the establishment they are camping at.

My god you are full of shit.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:03 pm UTC

Maybe black people should start wearing nice pants, button down shirts, and the most disarming of fashion accessories; bowties?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:04 pm UTC

bantler wrote:Dude, you can't honestly expect a guy to not be nervous around folks who purposely intend to look menacing. Lots of people enjoy being scary and intimidating; especially in groups.
You're still assuming the "purposely" part based on nothing more than the fact that you yourself are easily intimidated.

Also two people isn't a group.

And of course I'm attracted to people who try to be attractive. This isn't Bizarro world.
That's not what the fuck I said. Do you have trouble with the direction of cause and effect, too?
Are you also the kind of shit who is attracted to someone and then concludes that they must have dressed to attract you?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby bantler » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:05 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Again, dude, where the hell did you grow up that these two guys would've been dressed like "low class thugs"? I'm sorry that you had to get caught in the middle of a dance off between the Dukes of Dolce and Gabbana-Rama before they put aside their differences to control the local supply of leather from Victoria's Secret Society in a catwalk that resulted in so many bystanders needing stitches and lace.


You are correct that I didn't check their labels. Maybe those sweatpants were very expensive.

Any two large dudes in sweats refusing to order anything or leave a coffee-shop should be cause for pause. They don't get a pass for being black.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:11 pm UTC

They didn't "refuse to order anything", they said they were waiting for their friend before ordering.

And I suspect their being there for an entire two minutes wouldn't have given anyone a pause regardless of dress or order if they'd been white.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Mutex » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:13 pm UTC

And if you've got any examples of two white men being arrested for sitting in Starbucks, please post them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:18 pm UTC

"It's not about race! It just happens to be something that has only ever happened to black people and occasionally other PoC, but that doesn't mean you can make it a race thing!"
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:29 pm UTC

"It needs to be reframed into a class issue in spite of the people presenting themselves as middle class. Clearly all black people are at fault for not wearing bespoke suits"

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:36 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
bantler wrote:Dude, you can't honestly expect a guy to not be nervous around folks who purposely intend to look menacing. Lots of people enjoy being scary and intimidating; especially in groups.
You're still assuming the "purposely" part based on nothing more than the fact that you yourself are easily intimidated.
This is sort of related to an article that was in today's paper (for some reason) about something called drill.

Spoiler:
No, not the carpentry tool. No, not the military waste of time and cartilege either. Some kind of recorded ... umm ... sound.

Here we go:
Inside UK drill, the demonised rap genre representing a marginalised generation

Until recently, mainstream media have actively ignored drill, but are now jumping on a bandwagon of blame - not hesitating to pinpoint blame on the music and its disciples for perpetuating a recent spike of violence in London

Image

What seems like indiscriminate, inexplicable crime is having its root causes dissected and, in a state of moral panic and unfolding debate, mainstream media is clumsily pointing to one direction: the current soundtrack of the UK’s streets, drill.

A form of trap-style rap taken from Chicago and pioneers such as Chief Keef in the early 2010s, then exported into south London some years later and popularized by 67, K-Trap, 150 and others, drill has enveloped UK music’s underground with its rampant, energetic and domineering sounds, reflecting the harshness of these rappers’ respective neighbourhoods.

Until recently, mainstream media have actively ignored it, but are now jumping on the bandwagon of blame, not hesitating to pinpoint blame on the music and its disciples for perpetuating violence. Some even go the extra mile and flat out demonise everything about it – to ludicrous levels and with a failure to grasp slang in their criticisms – and are left exposed as the proverbial relics and proprietors of white privilege that they are.

Let’s be clear, drill music is no picnic. In it, rappers detail vivid accounts of cooking up drugs, facing up to their rivals (or opps) and harming those who dare to disrespect them. Yes, lines referring to cleaning kitchenware after doing away with a person exist, and their presentation (visuals of young black men in all-black tracksuits, faces covered in balaclavas, spewing street slang and throwing up frequent gunfingers) can be ominous from the outside looking in.

While street politics, social media antics and the inevitable violence they produce are issues rife within this music, drill is the new sound of the disenfranchised as they make sense of a neglectful nation. Scratching beneath the surface of their explosive and territorial bravado further, you discover that these drillers are really crying out for help, speaking to a mental anguish that has engulfed them but fails to be addressed.


These things always feel to me a bit like a thesis about localised magnetic field systems collapsing faster under the influence of a stronger overlying magnetic field in stars' photospheres must to someone who dropped all the science subjects at age 13 ... and I can't read it without thinking it's meant to be shouted on the radio in a faked {insert family background location here} accent.

Still, it could be worse. It could be bloody Handel's bloody Hallelujah bloody Chorus. Yuck.

I try to take their word for it, but I don't quite get the logic behind:
While street politics, social media antics and the inevitable violence they produce are issues rife within this music, ...
"Rife" there? Nobody calls delicious strawberries "rife" within an otherwise rather bland fruit salad, you know? The definition at http://www.dictionary.com/browse/rife doesn't say it has to be a bad thing but the first example given is "Crime is rife" so yeah, generally if you're saying something's rife you're saying that's a problem and ... well ... "the inevitable violence they produce" is kind of saying the blame is right, isn't it? Am I the only one seeing that? I know the article calls this stuff "music," rather than "social media antics," but if drill's full of street politics and social media antics and street politics and social media antics inevitably produce violence, isn't this article defending drill from blame for the violence blaming drill for the violence?

I get that I'm not in their position and haven't lived their lives and so on, but if someone shows up on my doorstep dressed like that and tells me this postcode is his turf and I'd better not fuck with him or he'll be wiping my heartblood off his kitchen knives before the pubs are shut, the only help he's likely to get from me is euthanasia (without the eu, because we voted to leave, remember?).
I'm pretty sure the guys in Starbucks weren't dressed like that or talking like that, though. In particular, that mask? I reckon that mask would have been mentioned by now if one of them had been wearing it at the time. Also they'd both have been shot, no matter how they were talking.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:52 pm UTC

bantler wrote:Dude, you can't honestly expect a guy to not be nervous around folks who purposely intend to look menacing.

Given the general lack of concern of the other customers in there, I think I can very much honestly expect a guy to not be nervous around these men which means either the answer is yes or these men didn't purposely intend to look menacing. Either way the very evidence on the scene seems to completely contradict the argument you are trying to make.

bantler wrote:Any two large dudes in sweats refusing to order anything or leave a coffee-shop should be cause for pause. They don't get a pass for being black.

Two people hanging out together is a common social event not suspicious. Being large is a common body physique and not suspicious. Being a dude is a common gender identification not suspicious. Sweat pants are a common garb not suspicious. Waiting for a friend to order is common behavior not suspicious. What combination of these suddenly make these human beings thugs that must be forcibly removed?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:00 pm UTC

Guys from some previous interactions I think bantler might be a literal troll, as in he's saying deliberately absurd shit to stir up argument and not legitimately defending his position.

Then again, Poe's Law.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:06 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Guys from some previous interactions I think bantler might be a literal troll, as in he's saying deliberately absurd shit to stir up argument and not legitimately defending his position.

Then again, Poe's Law.


Good call.

To be honest, I'm having trouble not laughing at the notion of sweat pants being a thing to worry about, given the location of this particular Starbucks. This is a quarter mile away from South Street in Philly... you see everything from high fashion to formal business attire, to torn up jeans, to swimwear... to things that make you wonder if they're legal to be worn in public.

Sweat pants are what the boring people are wearing :D

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:36 pm UTC

Go to San Francisco. If a naked person walks by absolutely no one will notice what you are wearing.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby freezeblade » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:43 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Go to San Francisco. If a naked person walks by absolutely no one will notice what you are wearing.


Unfortunately it's no longer legal to be nude in public on the streets of SF (as of a few years ago), except on special "parade days" such as the Bay 2 Breakers foot race, or gay pride weekend. It is also legal to drink from open containers in public on these days.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:49 pm UTC

Only if you can afford to live there. It's either the world's shittiest awesome city, or the most awesome shitty city.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby freezeblade » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:20 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Only if you can afford to live there. It's either the world's shittiest awesome city, or the most awesome shitty city.


spoilered for off topic
Spoiler:
Which is why most of us live in the East Bay instead (Oakland in my case) which, although still not affordable compared to other parts of the country, is way more doable than SF proper. The only folks who can afford to live there are Tech Bros (who work for google/twitter/other tech), people that have been there for more than 7 years on rent control, or trust fund hipsters.

I think Oakland follows the description of "The most awesome shitty city." Yes it's shitty, with whole areas that are food deserts, there's crime, a large homeless population, and the roads/parks are falling apart in disrepair. On the other hand, it's hugely diverse (one of the most diverse in the country), has amazing food districts, and an art/music scene that spilled over from SF. Oakland is the Brooklyn of the San Fransisco Bay Area.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:32 pm UTC

Back on topic. Holy shit the Boston police are goddamn idiots. Police caught on film punching Harvard student that was pinned to ground. I'm just going to ignore the whole human rights issue and ask the sociopathic questions. Did they think that harvard students couldn't afford cameras? Were they unaware that these are the kids whose parents have connections to the people signing their paychecks? Were they unaware that the students at harvard are the ones most likely to grow up into a position to royally scew anyone that they have a vendetta against?

Dont worry, bantler, this one wasnt wearing anything threatening, or at all for that matter.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:43 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Back on topic. Holy shit the Boston police are goddamn idiots. Police caught on film punching Harvard student that was pinned to ground. I'm just going to ignore the whole human rights issue and ask the sociopathic questions. Did they think that harvard students couldn't afford cameras? Were they unaware that these are the kids whose parents have connections to the people signing their paychecks? Were they unaware that the students at harvard are the ones most likely to grow up into a position to royally scew anyone that they have a vendetta against?

Dont worry, bantler, this one wasnt wearing anything threatening, or at all for that matter.


(Note: the tone of the following is addressed to the officers, who i know aren't on these boards, but it's my reaction to the video)

... now... I know that I last set foot in a dojo (something over) 25 years ago, but I do recall being taught a number of ways to effectively block a punch (even in a kick-heavy style like Tae-Kwon-Do), and this was white-belt stuff. If you're in an even halfway reasonably trained militia group (like, for instance, a police department) you should know enough self-defense combat techniques to achieve this foundational of fighting maneuvers.

If the guy you're dealing with is naked, tripping on a hallucinogen, and you outnumber him two or three to one, then he balls up his fists: Let the fucker make the first punch. I'd vaguely understand the full-body tackle from behind if he was reaching in to a pocket for -maybe- a weapon or something... But fuck man, if all he's got offensively is his fists and his pecker while you've got weapons and body armor, at least have the courtesy to let him swing first.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:10 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Dont worry, bantler, this one wasnt wearing anything threatening, or at all for that matter.

With no cloths on, he might have had a dark vaguely gun shaped object pointed at them though.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby iamspen » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:10 am UTC

bantler wrote:Beards and sweatpants are often denied service.
That look is all the rage amongst the homeless drug-addict crowd.


As a bearded white man, I can attest that I've never been kicked out of an establishment for any reason, regardless of how I dress that particular day. And frankly, your decision to actually double down on your clearly incorrect assertions speaks volumes.

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dubsola
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby dubsola » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:35 am UTC


idonno
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:12 pm UTC

dubsola wrote:http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-23/former-asio-specialist-paul-gibbons-sues-police/9686588

Beaten and arrested for not showing due deference


Here is an idea. Why don't they at least enforce the law when the infraction is blatantly obvious on actual security camera footage and charge the officer clearly tampering with evidence for tampering with evidence. Obviously there should be other charges but as long as police can literally destroy evidence in full view of a camera without any concern corruption is going to run rampant.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:52 pm UTC

In contrast with the 149 pages of this thread, I thought this was illuminating:

The calm actions of a police officer who arrested the Toronto van suspect without firing a shot have prompted praise and, in some quarters, astonishment.

Video from the scene shows suspect Alek Minassian pointing an object at the officer and shouting: "Kill me!"

The officer tells the man to "get down" and when the suspect says he has a gun, the officer repeats: "I don't care. Get down."

Videos on social media show Mr Minassian lying down as the officer arrests him.

Many in North America are asking how the suspect did not end up dead in a hail of police gunfire. It contrasts with incidents in the US where police have shot and killed unarmed people.

"Research has shown that Canadian police are reluctant users of deadly force," says Rick Parent, a criminologist at Simon Fraser University in Canada's British Columbia. "An analysis of police shooting data over many years revealed, that in comparison to their American counterparts, Canadian police officers discharge their firearms far less, per capita that US police. However, like American police officers they take many risks in protecting the public."

One US-based academic told the BBC that the officer would have had a "duty" to kill the suspect, if the object he was pointing was a gun.

Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders told journalists the officer had done a "fantastic job" to understand the "circumstance and environment" and get to a "peaceful resolution". He said police in the city were "taught to use as little force as possible in any given situation".

Mike McCormack, president of the Toronto Police Association, told the Globe and Mail newspaper that the officer was a "hero" and could have justified opening fire. "This officer looked at what was going on and determined he could handle it the way that he did," he said.

He said he had spoken to the officer, who had told him: "I just did my job. What I did was no big deal. But look at these poor people."


I think it really does emphasise that it's all in the mindset and the training. Cops in the US have a deeply safety-first culture, whereas in other countries the police realise it's for the greater good to use as little force as possible.

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bantler
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby bantler » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:36 pm UTC

elasto wrote:I think it really does emphasise that it's all in the mindset and the training. Cops in the US have a deeply safety-first culture, whereas in other countries the police realise it's for the greater good to use as little force as possible.


That is amazing restraint. But it's usually for the greater good to shoot people who seem to be brandishing a weapon after running over dozens of people. The usual scenario if for the spree to continue after perps leave the vehicle.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:21 pm UTC

It's mindset, training, and white privilege.

US cops took Dylan Roof and Travis Reinking alive, too.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:20 am UTC

Is there anywhere with the percentage of "active shooters" taken into custody by race?


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