Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:23 pm UTC

At about 0:27-0:36 the officer fires ten times and then readjusts his aim once. That is just flat out bad marksmanship. The rule of thump, especially for handguns, is that after the second shot the gun has moved so much that further shots will miss. That is actually why automatic handguns are not a thing and why most machine guns have a burst option*. It is also why semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, which responsible people use for hunting, are not as ubiquitous as semi-automatic pistols, which responsible people use for defense.

Also, what is the point of yelling gun?


*Semi-automatic guns fire each time the trigger is pulled. Automatic guns continue to fire as long as the trigger is pulled. Automatic guns set to burst fire a set amount of times every time the trigger is pulled. Just wanted the differences to be clear.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:00 pm UTC

cool yeah the cops' poor marksmanship is the Real Problem here
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:03 pm UTC

I just love how the far right will insist the FBI, CIA, etc are full of crooks and monsters and need to be reined in, but somehow the boys in blue are perfect little darlings whom the evil MSM just wants to drag through the mud...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby poxic » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:54 pm UTC

Wow, jewish_scientist. Miss the point much? Your takeaway is "cops need more target practise"?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Weeks » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:58 pm UTC

natraj wrote:cool yeah the cops' poor marksmanship is the Real Problem here
hi, it is me, Rational Thinker on the Internet just pointing out some inefficiencies. I would like to propose that the method of shooting applied by subject USPD-001128 on target USIC-777391946 is suboptimal, but also quite interesting. Notice the subject's position of his right index finger on the trigger,
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:54 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:Buncha stupid “Rational and Logical” stuff


I kinda want to print that out, frame it, put it in an art museum, and title the piece “Why people who argue that emotion has no place in decision making or thought are the dumbest dumbfucks to ever dumbfuck III”
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby jewish_scientist » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:13 pm UTC

My point was more along the lines of, 'Look at how horribly these cops are trained.' Any basic firearms course would tell you to never shoot madly like that. This miscommunication is on me. I should have made myself clearer.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:15 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:At about 0:27-0:36 the officer fires ten times and then readjusts his aim once. That is just flat out bad marksmanship. The rule of thump, especially for handguns, is that after the second shot the gun has moved so much that further shots will miss. That is actually why automatic handguns are not a thing and why most machine guns have a burst option*. It is also why semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, which responsible people use for hunting, are not as ubiquitous as semi-automatic pistols, which responsible people use for defense.

Also, what is the point of yelling gun?


*Semi-automatic guns fire each time the trigger is pulled. Automatic guns continue to fire as long as the trigger is pulled. Automatic guns set to burst fire a set amount of times every time the trigger is pulled. Just wanted the differences to be clear.


Automatic handguns are most definitely a thing.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:22 pm UTC

my point was that i am tired of living in a world where people keep sharing footage of my people's murders and then the first responses to it in conversations on police brutality are, "look how badly they shot"

it's just exhausting that we are so completely steeped in racism that that seems like a logical and normal place for your brain to go. that this is what the discussion should be about. that the humanity and life of the prison in question wasn't even given a moment of mention or consideration because we live in a world where our lives are not considered at all. the level of disregard for humanity in your post was simultaneously nauseating and also unfortunately completely standard, since black people aren't actually regarded as human life worth considering so why not just make this a discussion of whether or not cops are being trained with appropriate shooting form?

i should have made myself clearer.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:23 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:My point was more along the lines of, 'Look at how horribly these cops are trained.' Any basic firearms course would tell you to never shoot madly like that. This miscommunication is on me. I should have made myself clearer.


Yes, because that is why people are so upset at the police violence. That's why at all the marches against police brutality, you see signs like "why didn't you kill my son quicker". That's why the NFL has players kneeling, due to all those wasted taxpayer dollars on shots that missed.

Or maybe you are missing the point entirely, that perhaps we should stop training cops to shoot first, and perhaps hold their departments accoutantable when they screw up.

I keep suggesting it, but it bears repeating. If a cop shoots someone, justified or not, automatic loss of 1 week's pay for the entire department. "God dammit Steve, why'd you have to go and shoot that ******? Don't give me any of that 'I felt in danger of my fellow officers lives' crap, I'm already living paycheck to paycheck, asshole! You are paying my cable bill this month, one way or the other!"

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:28 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:My point was more along the lines of, 'Look at how horribly these cops are trained.' Any basic firearms course would tell you to never shoot madly like that. This miscommunication is on me. I should have made myself clearer.

Perhaps we should also train them not to shoot black people for having a cell phone on their own property. I don't know of a major shortage in bullets, so maybe instead of aiming better they can learn not to murder.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Weeks » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:52 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:My point was more along the lines of, 'Look at how horribly these cops are trained.' Any basic firearms course would tell you to never shoot madly like that. This miscommunication is on me. I should have made myself clearer.
Cops are so badly trained their eye-hand coordination is less than par, indeed, I concur good sir. As can be clearly observed in the video, the angle between employed is less than 29.5 degrees, as noted in the Standard Manual for Shooting they give to any licensed gun owner in the United States; thus one wonders what level of discipline can be expected from our police officers when apprehending evildoers.

CorruptUser wrote:I keep suggesting it, but it bears repeating. If a cop shoots someone, justified or not, automatic loss of 1 week's pay for the entire department. "God dammit Steve, why'd you have to go and shoot that ******? Don't give me any of that 'I felt in danger of my fellow officers lives' crap, I'm already living paycheck to paycheck, asshole! You are paying my cable bill this month, one way or the other!"
haha, yes! XD Jokes aside, I think we should really consider some kind of point system, where bad cops get less points, and good cops get more points. Maybe if they get enough points, free donuts?

PS.. your "cop talk" quote was very funny :lol:
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:02 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I just love how the far right will insist the FBI, CIA, etc are full of crooks and monsters and need to be reined in, but somehow the boys in blue are perfect little darlings whom the evil MSM just wants to drag through the mud...

I was driving behind a truck the other day with two flag stickers on its back window: a Gadsden flag (the "don't tread on me" snake), and the Blue Lives Matter flag (this one). The irony of pairing a symbol of anti-authoritarian rebellion with a symbol of sycophantic support for the authorities was probably lost on them.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:06 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:My point was more along the lines of, 'Look at how horribly these cops are trained.' Any basic firearms course would tell you to never shoot madly like that. This miscommunication is on me. I should have made myself clearer.

Your point was 100% clear.

Your point was that Baby Stomping Earl should use steel toed boots with a good heel and not sneakers.

Your point is that Arsonist Carl should use lighter fluid and matches or a zippo and not the “Rubbing two sticks” method.

Your point is that Abortionist Bombing Chad should target the far less secure homes and not the actual clinics.

If your point was about training to *not* execute unarmed people, it would have focused on the time it takes a surprised person to comprehend shouted commands, how the police did not identify themselves first, how they should approached the subject, or any other number of flaws.

Your comment mentioned shitty aim from poor firing techniques.

Your comment’s point was that police are inefficient in their killings.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby arbiteroftruth » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:16 pm UTC

Alternatively, operating on the principle that the default assumption should be that a fellow human being is not a monster, the point is that poor, panicked use of a gun is indicative of poor training practices in general, and that better training might lead to less panic in such situations, and thus some shootings such as this one wouldn't happen at all.

Or, you know, assume he hates black people.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:20 pm UTC

who said anything about hating black people? just you
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:23 pm UTC

arbiteroftruth wrote:Alternatively, operating on the principle that the default assumption should be that a fellow human being is not a monster, the point is that poor, panicked use of a gun is indicative of poor training practices in general, and that better training might lead to less panic in such situations, and thus some shootings such as this one wouldn't happen at all.

Except that's not what he said. He said his aim was bad, and the cop should learn to aim better.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:26 pm UTC

Police need to learn how to deescalate conflict, and how to react to threats appropriately; if your training is focused is on how to most effectively apply force to protect the lives of the officers, then your department will be ran by people who see the need to use force in every situation.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby arbiteroftruth » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:29 pm UTC

natraj wrote:who said anything about hating black people? just you


I'll rephrase. "Or, you know, assume that in his mind 'black people aren't actually regarded as human life worth considering so why not just make this a discussion of whether or not cops are being trained with appropriate shooting form'."

Zohar wrote:Except that's not what he said. He said his aim was bad, and the cop should learn to aim better.


Which he then clarified as being intended as an example of bad training in general. That clarification itself could still be made more explicit of course, but again, I'm operating on the assumption that most people aren't monsters.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:39 pm UTC

arbiteroftruth wrote:Which he then clarified as being intended as an example of bad training in general. That clarification itself could still be made more explicit of course, but again, I'm operating on the assumption that most people aren't monsters.

I'm not sure how to explain it better. S_T did a pretty good job - when someone's first instinct after a horrific incident is to talk about how the perpetrator wasn't doing things in the most effective manner, that says something about the person. If that's the most obvious example of misconduct in this case for this person, then it says something about how they view the people involved, what they value, and what they appreciate. That they then qualify this with "You know this was probably bad" is, at best, an understanding of how wrong they were, and does not excuse them from these thoughts.

When I was on a phone call with IT support a few years ago for a non-obvious issue, a woman answered, and I thought in my head "Oh I bet I'll have to go to the expert team", that was super shitty on my part. That was misogynist thinking. That I acknowledged it is good, but doesn't excuse my previous thought. That I learned from this is better. The same standard is valid here.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Weeks » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:46 pm UTC

arbiteroftruth wrote:That clarification itself could still be made more explicit of course, but again, I'm operating on the assumption that most people aren't monsters.
I too have never been treated badly by a cop
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby arbiteroftruth » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:52 pm UTC

@ Zohar

What makes you think that was the first instinct or the most obvious example of misconduct? If something is so obvious that no one should need it pointed out to them (eg., cops shouldn't kill a man innocently using his cell phone in his own back yard), why not skip to something less obvious but still relevant (eg., look at this additional indication of the poor training that likely contributed to this incident)?

Edit:

Weeks wrote:
arbiteroftruth wrote:That clarification itself could still be made more explicit of course, but again, I'm operating on the assumption that most people aren't monsters.
I too have never been treated badly by a cop


Most people aren't cops. It could be the case that 100% of cops are monsters and my point would stand.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:57 pm UTC

arbiteroftruth wrote:If something is so obvious that no one should need it pointed out to them (eg., cops shouldn't kill a man innocently using his cell phone in his own back yard), why not skip to something less obvious but still relevant (eg., look at this additional indication of the poor training that likely contributed to this incident)?

If you think it's obvious to everyone cops shouldn't do this sort of thing, you have a very limited and wrong view of the world.

(edited to fix quote tag)
Last edited by Zohar on Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:01 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby arbiteroftruth » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:00 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
arbiteroftruth wrote:If something is so obvious that no one should need it pointed out to them (eg., cops shouldn't kill a man innocently using his cell phone in his own back yard), why not skip to something less obvious but still relevant (eg., look at this additional indication of the poor training that likely contributed to this incident)?

If you think it's obvious to everyone cops shouldn't do this sort of thing, you have a very limited and wrong view of the world.


It doesn't need to be obvious to everyone. It just needs to be reasonable for jewish_scientist to have presumed it would be obvious to the people who enjoy participating in a thread dedicated to pointing out police misbehavior.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:02 pm UTC

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this. If he were new to this thread, he would have had to clarify himself further. He's not new, and therefore he should have known there have definitely been monstrous opinions like this presented here.

And by the way, writing "This is a horrible tragedy, true, but look how bad his aim is" is also a super shitty thing to say.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Weeks » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:09 pm UTC

arbiteroftruth wrote:Most people aren't cops. It could be the case that 100% of cops are monsters and my point would stand.
Im comparing you to a white person telling a black person "all cops arent bad!" when you say we should "presume people arent monsters".

Thanks,
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:16 pm UTC

if it were in fact so obvious it didn't need pointing out, we wouldn't be having this conversation on a weekly basis. unfortunately that isn't the case at all, black people getting murdered by cops is both a regular occurrence and a regularly excused occurrence in the ongoing national conversation.

additionally there's always this really disgusting rush to plaster our deaths as widely as possible in a way that doesn't happen with other murders -- when these things happen i am often pretty immediately treated to graphic footage of black death, black bodies being posted up all over for people to watch and dissect without any thought to the ongoing trauma that this causes (because why would people think about it? even when supposedly talking about us, how we are affected is always an afterthought if it's a thought at all.)

on top of this i don't need to have made one single assumption about what was in j_s's head to say that the act of posting that response, to that video footage, was callous and disrespectful/disregarded the humanity of the subject. it was gross, it was emblematic of the entire pervasive kind of racism that leads to these incidents being common in the first place -- not least of which includes trying to nitpick at what tiny, marginal improvement in Some Individual's Behavior Or Training might have stopped this one incident rather than examining the entire system that dehumanizes black people and teaches everyone to see us as threats and problems first, people second (if ever)

also, nobody is posting here in a vacuum and this! very! thread! includes people repeatedly jumping to make excuses for cops and find reasons why shootings were justified/not that bad/super not a problem of racism at all, and j_s has been one of several frequent contributors to those tedious apologisms too, so i don't need to just magically fantasize about the miraculously racism-free environment we're posting in here either.

but like sure cool whatever i guess i should just pretend context and society and past history all don't exist, definitely some rando's fantasy of being Rational And Correct on the internet takes strong precedence over my wish that once in a while people would have even a shred of compassion and remember that these discussions don't happen in a vacuum. real people are here! reading them! participating in them! for some of y'all maybe this is just hypothetical but for some of us this is actual life and it'd be cool if people thought about that, ever.

but then we're back to having to actually think about black people as human...
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:50 pm UTC

This post had objectionable content.Perhaps right now is not the best time for a joke. -ST

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Weeks » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:49 pm UTC

This post had objectionable content.Goddamn it, Weeks
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby cphite » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:44 pm UTC

arbiteroftruth wrote:Alternatively, operating on the principle that the default assumption should be that a fellow human being is not a monster, the point is that poor, panicked use of a gun is indicative of poor training practices in general, and that better training might lead to less panic in such situations, and thus some shootings such as this one wouldn't happen at all.


The problem is that they created a situation where panic could lead to the death of an innocent man. They escalated what was initially a non-violent offence into a situation where lethal force was on the table; and in doing so they not only killed someone, they endangered themselves and the community at large. An exchange of gunfire, in the dark, is a far greater threat to public safety than some guy who allegedly broke a window.

They failed to properly identify themselves. They chased a suspect - blindly - into a dark area where they were forced to make a split-second decision that unfortunately resulted in death. They ordered the guy to drop his "gun" and gave him no time to comply before opening fire.

Based on my own experience, I can completely believe that someone in that situation might mistake a phone for a gun. And, I can understand feeling threatened once that mistake was made. I can even understand the number of rounds fired - cops are trained to fire until they're confident the threat is neutralized. Accuracy goes to hell in real situations; and when it's dark you lose even more accuracy, as well as the ability to gauge when the threat is down.

But the point is, they created the situation. They setup the scenario where, seeing the phone, they had to make that panicked split-second decision. And... these sorts of mistakes do seem to happen more often when the suspect is a young black man.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:57 pm UTC

Huh. So its kind of like the George Zimmerman case, in that you could make the argument that at the time of the shooting the killer had a Reasonable Belief That His and/or Fellow Officer's Lives Were in DangerTM, but what got it to that point in the first place...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:50 pm UTC

One thing about lousy shooting: in video games, bullets tend to turn into flashes of light on the scenery, but IRL they've got this awkward tendency to carry on through stuff like drywall / sheetrock / plasterboard / clapboard / plywood / windows / doors / other residents of the neighbourhood whether or not the cops knew they were there / wall tiles / kitchen cupboards / gas meters and so on, which can be a problem. If a cop shoots eight shots at someone in a residential area and has no idea where two of the bullets went, that ought to be two counts of reckless endangerment.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:19 am UTC

You do realize that shooting in video games is much different than shooting a real gun? Shooting a person and hitting is hard, aiming is much tougher than it looks, people don't do you the courtesy of holding still, and so forth. Even in close quarters, most of the shots missing is normal in real life.

That said, what I don't understand is why cops don't use their tasers first?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:29 am UTC

My first thought was that tasers have less range and if police think they're going to get shot they may not want to risk a less-lethal deterrent.

But then I immediately remembered that time a month or two ago where I saw some guy who I later learned was being pursued for weapons-trafficking offenses get tased not 20 feet away from me, so if my local cops can manage not to kill someone in a situation like that, there's no excuse for the ones who can't.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:31 am UTC

Tazers. Nightsticks. Pepper Spray. Flash Lights. Identifying yourself as an Officer of the Law.

When these powers combine, unarmed (predominately black) people don't die.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:17 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Tazers. Nightsticks. Pepper Spray. Flash Lights. Identifying yourself as an Officer of the Law.

When these powers combine, unarmed (predominately black) people don't die.



SecondTalon wrote:Tazers. Nightsticks.


Umm... I mean yeah, Rodney King didn't die, but...


Also, as an aside, are things better now? A man being beaten on camera was enough to trigger several days of riots, but today we need to have an actual execution for riots to occur and even then said riots tend to be smaller in scale. Have we become desensitized to police violence now?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby arbiteroftruth » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:44 am UTC

@natraj

To be clear, I'm not saying j_s's original response wasn't callous or that it shouldn't have been called out. What I'm saying is that since then, he has acknowledged that it was a miscommunication on his part and has clarified what his intent was, and that intended point is genuinely potentially relevant to a discussion of the systemic problem and not necessarily just nitpicking the details of this specific incident. Given all of that, for people to continue to tar and feather him seems counterproductive toward the goal of having a good faith discussion of the issue.

But with 140 pages of thread history that I'm not going to read, maybe he's simply run out of strikes, in which case I'll take your word for it and leave it to you.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:51 am UTC

We all knew what the intent was, because we can all read the first post.

It was a shitty intent and shitty execution of said intent, and your continuing to defend it is pretty shitty too.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:12 am UTC

natraj wrote:my point was that i am tired of living in a world where people keep sharing footage of my people's murders and then the first responses to it in conversations on police brutality are, "look how badly they shot"

it's just exhausting that we are so completely steeped in racism that that seems like a logical and normal place for your brain to go. that this is what the discussion should be about. that the humanity and life of the prison in question wasn't even given a moment of mention or consideration because we live in a world where our lives are not considered at all. the level of disregard for humanity in your post was simultaneously nauseating and also unfortunately completely standard, since black people aren't actually regarded as human life worth considering so why not just make this a discussion of whether or not cops are being trained with appropriate shooting form?

i should have made myself clearer.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:34 am UTC

Nearly 1000 people were killed by police last year. 68 were unarmed. So 7% of the time a police officer decides to shoot someone to death, that person is unarmed...


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