Draw Mohammad Day

[Ixtellor]

I know that many Iranians regard the cleric who recently blamed an earthquake on immodestly dressed women as the same level of quack that most intelligent Americans regard the likes of Pat Robertson. And speaking of Iran (I know you were talking about Saudi Arabia but I assume you'd have made similar claims about Iran, right?) when people there did try to stand up in protest of what was happening in their government, they were brutally put down. I'm not sure how much you want moderates to do when that's the kind of response they can expect from those in power over them.
.

Yes Iran is an interesting case. Their government and real leaders have some extremist positions. Basically its the old guard. Then you have a very small middle aged population due to the Iraq Iran war, in which they were butchered. (The Iranian tactics were effective, but bloody).
Then you have a HUGE young population that is very moderate, if not outright liberal.

I was hopeful for the protests they had, but I think they basically have to wait for the old guard to die off, before we see a real transformation in that nation.

In the mean time, the Iranian religious police are on duty, oppressing in an extremist way.
Although they seem to be highly ineffective or don't enforce the rules as much.

I think America has totally taken the wrong "axis of evil" approach with Iran, and should have been showering them with praise and allyship (made up that word I think) in an effort to speed up the conversion and moderation.

[TheGrammarBolshevik]

While I see Muslims on TV and read them on the interwebs, condemning extermism, I don't see the huge rallies or open opposition to the guys chanting death to Isreal.

Therein lies the problem.

Perception is reality. In the war of ideas, the Muslim extremists are doing a good job.

The war of ideas of the Islamic world is not fought in Western news media. If you gained influence by how prominently you were depicted by people who don't like you, transgender communist Berkeley professors would be at the helm of the Democratic Party.

[Aikanaro]

While I see Muslims on TV and read them on the interwebs, condemning extermism, I don't see the huge rallies or open opposition to the guys chanting death to Isreal.

Therein lies the problem.

Perception is reality. In the war of ideas, the Muslim extremists are doing a good job.

The war of ideas of the Islamic world is not fought in Western news media. If you gained influence by how prominently you were depicted by people who don't like you, transgender communist Berkeley professors would be at the helm of the Democratic Party.

You mean they aren't?! CONSERVAPEDIA LIED TO ME?!?!

[Indon]

It is not. Honestly. Perhaps I was unclear as to which I was saying offended me; it's the general idea to invite people into making drawings which may be malicious (mocking, insulting, whatever) in intent. I'm perfectly fine (and probably 99% of other muslims too) if they're drawn like any other character. He's a personality, after all, so it's not a problem to represent him as much (we do that too when we make films about him, just that we usually don't show a face; but it's not like he's somehow banned from being interpreted at all). The problem is when it's condescending.

Well, the principle of the day isn't to draw insulting depictions of mohammed, but simply to depict mohammed.

The possibility that this could be misconstrued isn't a problem with the day itself, but with the people drawing insulting depictions, and I feel that it's the responsibility of supporters of the day to call such people out on violating the spirit of the event.

[jestingrabbit]

Well, the principle of the day isn't to draw insulting depictions of mohammed, but simply to depict mohammed.

But they can respond with a "the point of the day is to underline that we can draw whatever we want whenever we want", and I don't really think there's a good counterargument to that, unless the point of the day is to also say that hate speech is wrong, and I think that a lot of the participants would see that as wrong and not at all something that they support.

[Indon]

But they can respond with a "the point of the day is to underline that we can draw whatever we want whenever we want", and I don't really think there's a good counterargument to that, unless the point of the day is to also say that hate speech is wrong, and I think that a lot of the participants would see that as wrong and not at all something that they support.

Faced with that conversation, I'd prompt them as to the specific origins of the day, probably with a "So why are we all drawing Mohammed?" to start out.

[jestingrabbit]

and they might say that it is to defend free speech.

[Indon]

and they might say that it is to defend free speech.

I'd basically guide them towards admitting that the day is in response to muslim extremists and their attempts to stifle speech, and that we should take actions to optimize targeting offending them specifically, rather than just making offensive stuff in general, because it's not "Draw offensive things day".

[Steax]

It is not. Honestly. Perhaps I was unclear as to which I was saying offended me; it's the general idea to invite people into making drawings which may be malicious (mocking, insulting, whatever) in intent. I'm perfectly fine (and probably 99% of other muslims too) if they're drawn like any other character. He's a personality, after all, so it's not a problem to represent him as much (we do that too when we make films about him, just that we usually don't show a face; but it's not like he's somehow banned from being interpreted at all). The problem is when it's condescending.

Well, the principle of the day isn't to draw insulting depictions of mohammed, but simply to depict mohammed.

The possibility that this could be misconstrued isn't a problem with the day itself, but with the people drawing insulting depictions, and I feel that it's the responsibility of supporters of the day to call such people out on violating the spirit of the event.

What I see could be a problem is this: the idea of the day was to draw mohammed as an act of solidarity for artists who got death threats for drawing insulting depictions of him. The solidarity could be simply to draw him, but it seems overwhelmingly to mean insulting stuff. (The words "Draw Mohammad Day" seem to be guise, in this way; if they say "Mock Mohammad Day" they'd probably get a lot more opposition.) And if supporters should be doing so, then there still lies a problem within the event; there should be rules or guidelines and moderation.

[gmalivuk]

there should be rules or guidelines and moderation.

If you personally want to make a moderated website or forum and restrict posts there only to tasteful, non-mocking depictions, fine. But there's no way to make your personal preferences apply to the day as a whole, and to attempt to do so would rather counter the whole free speech thing, anyway. And honestly, I think the more one group of people tries to stifle the kinds of depictions that they deem "acceptable", the more others are going to be inclined to go out of their way to make "unacceptable" contributions.

[Indon]

What I see could be a problem is this: the idea of the day was to draw mohammed as an act of solidarity for artists who got death threats for drawing insulting depictions of him.

I wasn't aware the depicion of Mohammed in South Park was insulting.

[Steax]

there should be rules or guidelines and moderation.

If you personally want to make a moderated website or forum and restrict posts there only to tasteful, non-mocking depictions, fine. But there's no way to make your personal preferences apply to the day as a whole, and to attempt to do so would rather counter the whole free speech thing, anyway. And honestly, I think the more one group of people tries to stifle the kinds of depictions that they deem "acceptable", the more others are going to be inclined to go out of their way to make "unacceptable" contributions.

At least some sort of guideline which they post on the facebook group (which seems to be their primary advertising method)? I just think that would be more ideal. You're right, it's inevitable that both offensive and non-offensive drawings will be made. The Day here is getting people to make either of them; so while a part may be non-offensive, a part will also be. Which is why it's my opinion that such an event needs better guidance to make it less of a spiteful action and into more of art, or solidarity, or whatever it is they're trying to get across.

What I see could be a problem is this: the idea of the day was to draw mohammed as an act of solidarity for artists who got death threats for drawing insulting depictions of him.

I wasn't aware the depicion of Mohammed in South Park was insulting.

I can't say, I didn't see it. Well some people found it insulting, or they wouldn't be giving death threats, I suppose. *shrug*

[Gelsamel]

Some people find anything insulting...

[gmalivuk]

Yeah, if you're going to object to anything *anyone* finds insulting, then we're back to objecting to every possible depiction of Mohammad.

[PeterCai]

Great idea, since offending people in a way that highten the already tense racial, political and religious conflict is obviously the best way to make an argument about ideology. Especially with a reactionary minority that is known to produce fundamentalism when provoked. Oh, oh oh, how about "Draw Jesus as Child Molester Day", that'd be fun too, right?

[gmalivuk]

Great post. Now how about you actually go and read some of the thread?

[PeterCai]

Great post. Now how about you actually go and read some of the thread?

I did, your point being?

[gmalivuk]

You brought up a bunch of objections that people have already been responding to for half a dozen pages, and didn't offer anything new at all. Sorry if I assumed this meant you simply hadn't read the thread, rather than that you had read it but decided you'd just repeat what others more eloquent than you had already said anyway...

It's also funny that you bring up Jesus as a Child Molester day, as though that would be differently offensive to forum members than the worst Mohammad images are.

[Kayangelus]

Great idea, since offending people in a way that highten the already tense racial, political and religious conflict is obviously the best way to make an argument about ideology. Especially with a reactionary minority that is known to produce fundamentalism when provoked. Oh, oh oh, how about "Draw Jesus as Child Molester Day", that'd be fun too, right?

Can't. A lot of those pictures would end up being pornographic, and I'm pretty sure child pornography (even a drawing) is a federal offense.

[gmalivuk]

Nah, there are lots of pictures that are just of Jesus with one or more children, fully clothed. The mere context of the day's name would be enough to make most of those pictures count, without any rules actually being violated by anyone.

Except Jesus.

[Aetius]

Oh, oh oh, how about "Draw Jesus as Child Molester Day", that'd be fun too, right?

You say that like the internet isn't awash in the pope = pedobear macros, or Jesus lightswitches that make it look like he's encouraging children to perform fellatio on him, or any number of other offensive and irreverent jokes.

[Nordic Einar]

Oh, oh oh, how about "Draw Jesus as Child Molester Day", that'd be fun too, right?

You say that like the internet isn't awash in the pope = pedobear macros, or Jesus lightswitches that make it look like he's encouraging children to perform fellatio on him, or any number of other offensive and irreverent jokes.

I said this earlier in the thread, but apparently it bears repeating - as soon as Christianity is the minority religion, otherized by the majority of Western Culture I'll start giving a damn. Until then, I think Christians can take it on the chin.

[Aetius]

Oh, oh oh, how about "Draw Jesus as Child Molester Day", that'd be fun too, right?

You say that like the internet isn't awash in the pope = pedobear macros, or Jesus lightswitches that make it look like he's encouraging children to perform fellatio on him, or any number of other offensive and irreverent jokes.

I said this earlier in the thread, but apparently it bears repeating - as soon as Christianity is the minority religion, otherized by the majority of Western Culture I'll start giving a damn. Until then, I think Christians can take it on the chin.

Islam is a religion with 1.25 billion adherents. Forgive me if I don't think that's not enough chins to distribute the blow.

[Nordic Einar]

Oh, oh oh, how about "Draw Jesus as Child Molester Day", that'd be fun too, right?

You say that like the internet isn't awash in the pope = pedobear macros, or Jesus lightswitches that make it look like he's encouraging children to perform fellatio on him, or any number of other offensive and irreverent jokes.

I said this earlier in the thread, but apparently it bears repeating - as soon as Christianity is the minority religion, otherized by the majority of Western Culture I'll start giving a damn. Until then, I think Christians can take it on the chin.

Islam is a religion with 1.25 billion adherents. Forgive me if I don't think that's not enough chins to distribute the blow.

Good thing we're not discussing Muslims in the West, then. Oh, wait. Fuck.

[Aetius]

Good thing we're not discussing Muslims in the West, then. Oh, wait. Fuck.

This is what makes identity politics so difficult. I never know what group definition of convenience is in use on any given day.

[Nordic Einar]

Good thing we're not discussing Muslims in the West, then. Oh, wait. Fuck.

This is what makes identity politics so difficult. I never know what group definition of convenience is in use on any given day.

The issues facing Muslims in the Western World compared to the issues facing Muslims in the Middle-East/Asian worlds are vastly fucking different. This isn't an issue of convenience - it's an issue of logistics.

[Aetius]

The issues facing Muslims in the Western World compared to the issues facing Muslims in the Middle-East/Asian worlds are vastly fucking different. This isn't an issue of convenience - it's an issue of logistics.

Of course it's an issue of convenience. You define the offended party in the smallest possible terms by taking a geographical slice of all Muslims, and define the offending group in the largest possible terms by implying that there is some high degree of solidarity across the entire Western world, when in fact the entire reason behind the day is the deafening lack of solidarity in defense of free speech.

[Nordic Einar]

The issues facing Muslims in the Western World compared to the issues facing Muslims in the Middle-East/Asian worlds are vastly fucking different. This isn't an issue of convenience - it's an issue of logistics.

Of course it's an issue of convenience. You define the offended party in the smallest possible terms by taking a geographical slice of all Muslims, and define the offending group in the largest possible terms by implying that there is some high degree of solidarity across the entire Western world, when in fact the entire reason behind the day is the deafening lack of solidarity in defense of free speech.

My concern for Draw Muhammad Day is that you will have little to no effect on discouraging extremists, but will very effectively continue to Otherize Western Muslims, increasing the likelyhood of discrimination and bigotry. I kind of thought it was for granted that you'd probably offend a shit ton of foreign Muslims too, but since my concern with the day has to do with otherizing Western (read: Liberal/Moderate) Muslims I didn't bother discussing how this will affect the blood pressure of Iranian Clerics.

Secondly, you're taking (probably intentionally) my comments about widespread distrust of Muslims in the West out of context. It was part of a discussion on why there is a difference between a religious minority being mocked by Christians/Non-Religious peoples in a primarily Christian nation, and a religious minority (or other) mocking Christians in a primarily Christian nation. It was only tangentially linked to Draw Muhammad Day.

If you really think that there isn't widespread distrust of Muslims in the Western World, I'm not really sure what to say to you.

[guenther]

Secondly, you're taking (probably intentionally) my comments about widespread distrust of Muslims in the West out of context. It was part of a discussion on why there is a difference between a religious minority being mocked by Christians/Non-Religious peoples in a primarily Christian nation, and a religious minority (or other) mocking Christians in a primarily Christian nation. It was only tangentially linked to Draw Muhammad Day.

How about instead we settle on a standard of respect that we apply equally to everyone? Is it too difficult to stomach the idea that this might require opposing poor treatment of Christians every now and then?

[Ixtellor]

my comments about widespread distrust of Muslims in the West out of context. It was part of a discussion on why there is a difference between a religious minority being mocked by Christians/Non-Religious peoples in a primarily Christian nation, and a religious minority (or other) mocking Christians in a primarily Christian nation.

Its a matter of "Don't threaten to kill our citizens for doing something that is 100% legal just because it offends you. If you do threaten to kill us, we will fuck with you and mock you endlessly. And some brave soles will even mock you out in the open to demonstrate what a fucktard you are and that you don't have the right to threaten us".

[Nordic Einar]

Secondly, you're taking (probably intentionally) my comments about widespread distrust of Muslims in the West out of context. It was part of a discussion on why there is a difference between a religious minority being mocked by Christians/Non-Religious peoples in a primarily Christian nation, and a religious minority (or other) mocking Christians in a primarily Christian nation. It was only tangentially linked to Draw Muhammad Day.

How about instead we settle on a standard of respect that we apply equally to everyone? Is it too difficult to stomach the idea that this might require opposing poor treatment of Christians every now and then?

Piss off. I am one of the few supportive atheist/agnostics of Christians I know; which has caused me a ton of grief because in my social circles (be it in GLBT Activism or Dawkins loving Atheists) it's "sheik" to hate on Jesus. That doesn't mean I can't see the difference between religious discrimination directed at a minority and religious discrimination directed at the majority - they're both morally wrong, but one of these things has a much greater impact on the lives of those involved than the other.

my comments about widespread distrust of Muslims in the West out of context. It was part of a discussion on why there is a difference between a religious minority being mocked by Christians/Non-Religious peoples in a primarily Christian nation, and a religious minority (or other) mocking Christians in a primarily Christian nation.

Its a matter of "Don't threaten to kill our citizens for doing something that is 100% legal just because it offends you. If you do threaten to kill us, we will fuck with you and mock you endlessly. And some brave soles will even mock you out in the open to demonstrate what a fucktard you are and that you don't have the right to threaten us".

Right, and as I've said before I understand the reasoning behind this day's formation. However, the people who threaten to kill you? Are probably just going to become more insular, and certainly aren't going to stop frothing at the mouth over the stupidest of shit. But congratulations, you've fomented even more distrust for Muslims - and that includes the kind of liberal, moderate Muslims who fucking agree with you. All you've succeeded in doing is otherizing Moderate Muslims with little to no effect on the extremists, and you've done it in a hugely dickish way. Congratulations?

[Aetius]

Right, and as I've said before I understand the reasoning behind this day's formation. However, the people who threaten to kill you? Are probably just going to become more insular, and certainly aren't going to stop frothing at the mouth over the stupidest of shit. But congratulations, you've fomented even more distrust for Muslims - and that includes the kind of liberal, moderate Muslims who fucking agree with you. All you've succeeded in doing is otherizing Moderate Muslims with little to no effect on the extremists, and you've done it in a hugely dickish way. Congratulations?

How is this not just textbook victim blaming? "Don't antagonize anyone with your defense of your fundamental rights in the face of violence."

[guenther]

Piss off. I am one of the few supportive atheist/agnostics of Christians I know; which has caused me a ton of grief because in my social circles (be it in GLBT Activism or Dawkins loving Atheists) it's "sheik" to hate on Jesus. That doesn't mean I can't see the difference between religious discrimination directed at a minority and religious discrimination directed at the majority - they're both morally wrong, but one of these things has a much greater impact on the lives of those involved than the other.

When you say things like "as soon as Christianity is the minority religion, otherized by the majority of Western Culture I'll start giving a damn", you've gone beyond seeing the difference and are in fact promoting unequal treatment. You've taken a different moral stance depending on who the victim is.

I'm glad in your micro-sphere you are supportive of your Christian friends. Personally I think that's much more important.

Right, and as I've said before I understand the reasoning behind this day's formation. However, the people who threaten to kill you? Are probably just going to become more insular, and certainly aren't going to stop frothing at the mouth over the stupidest of shit. But congratulations, you've fomented even more distrust for Muslims - and that includes the kind of liberal, moderate Muslims who fucking agree with you. All you've succeeded in doing is otherizing Moderate Muslims with little to no effect on the extremists, and you've done it in a hugely dickish way. Congratulations?

By the way, I agree with you on this. If the day was called "Draw Mohammad Respectfully Day", then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[aleflamedyud]

That doesn't mean I can't see the difference between religious discrimination directed at a minority and religious discrimination directed at the majority - they're both morally wrong, but one of these things has a much greater impact on the lives of those involved than the other.

Morally speaking, there is no difference. You've done exactly the same thing in both cases.

[Nordic Einar]

That doesn't mean I can't see the difference between religious discrimination directed at a minority and religious discrimination directed at the majority - they're both morally wrong, but one of these things has a much greater impact on the lives of those involved than the other.

Morally speaking, there is no difference. You've done exactly the same thing in both cases.

Something I don't disagree with. However, I've got a whole lot of shit to care about and not a whole lot of time to do it - one of these things leads to systematic distrust and abuses of an ethnic/religious group, and one doesn't. Pardon me for being more concerned with the former and less so the latter.

[guenther]

Something I don't disagree with. However, I've got a whole lot of shit to care about and not a whole lot of time to do it

I said this earlier in the thread, but apparently it bears repeating -

If time is such an issue, you could save some by not going out of your way twice to defend unequal treatment. On top of that, you've spent even more time defending why you said it.

It's OK to focus extra time and energy on one moral issue, just don't go trampling over the other moral issues while you do it.

[Apteryx]

So typically xkcd.

Someone says "Draw Mohammad" so , 5 deeply argued pages of SPEECH later, how many pictures do we have? . . .

[Aikanaro]

So typically xkcd.

Someone says "Draw Mohammad" so , 5 deeply argued pages of SPEECH later, how many pictures do we have? . . .

Virtually none, because the presumed "targets" of DMD generally don't frequent these fora. So basically, all it'd accomplish here is pissing off SANE Muslims, which is rather pointless and counterproductive.

[Gelsamel]

My concern for Draw Muhammad Day is that you will have little to no effect on discouraging extremists, but will very effectively continue to Otherize Western Muslims, increasing the likelyhood of discrimination and bigotry. I kind of thought it was for granted that you'd probably offend a shit ton of foreign Muslims too, but since my concern with the day has to do with otherizing Western (read: Liberal/Moderate) Muslims I didn't bother discussing how this will affect the blood pressure of Iranian Clerics.

Wait a second, you keep saying western as if this is a locality/culture issue but you're presenting 'western Muslims' as though they're synonymous with 'sane' (as someone else put it) Muslims. You do realise that DMD originated because RevolutionMuslim, an Organisation based in New York City, threatened the creators of South Park, right?

I'm not saying all of US muslims are extremist of course, it's just disingenuous to suggest that Western = Nice and Liberal and Eastern = Ax Crazy Fanatics.

[Steax]

I should bake a cake shaped like the internet and send the extremists a kind letter to change the name of their religion.

Seriously, moderate Muslims hate those extremists as much as the people who they threaten. They're basically ruining the moderate's public face. (It's just a lot harder to talk against them when they're more capable of executing their death threats, living in the same country and all.)