JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

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JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby mypsychoticself » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:01 pm UTC

Or, they are according to this guy.

Apparently wearing jeans means that one has bad (or no) taste and believes that wearing fashionable clothing is a sign of elitism.
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Gellert1984 » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:18 pm UTC

Ok in the first half I kinda understand his point, people spending £120 on a pair of designer jeans is pretty sad. But he goes right off the deepend after that concluding that anyone who wears jeans, T-shirts and/or plays computer games shouldnt be allowed to vote as they have the mental age of a 12 year old, cos y'know, only kids and steel workers should wear jeans and blue-collar workers don't vote cos they cant read... (ok he doesnt say that last bit but I cant help but feel its implied)

Is this guy for real?
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby SJ Zero » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:51 pm UTC

Where does he call it communist? He just stupidly equates it with the lowest common denominator so he can attack those he perceives as lesser than him. The writer is just a pathetic loser, a self-absorbed twat who fails basic logic. His historical myopia can't be covered up by a few minor historical references.

The whole rant (and that's all it is) hinges on this idea that you can't look any shabbier than a pair of jeans. That idea is so ridiculous I'd fire his ass trying to hand this in for a paycheque. Watching people walk around in pyjamas, the idea that jeans and a t-shirt is the shabbiest you can look is offensive.

Jeans and other simple fashions became big during a previous recession, when students would wear simple, durable, and inexpensive clothing because of the massive expense and time commitment one had to put into wearing things like pleated pants or long dresses to class was outside of the range of most students.

That's right, the classic 'jeans and t-shirt' style was born among the intelligentsia who were poor, and needed inexpensive, durable clothes. Kids ended up wearing these fashions because their parents wanted them to, just as children dressed like little adults in Victorian times. Maybe these people should read a book? I know it's a lot to ask of writers for a newspaper.

Then this idiot follows with this philosophical gem: It's the mark of a terrible society that everyone dresses the same, exactly like James Dean. Therefore, everyone should dress the same, like Fred Astaire. Thanks, idiot. Where did you get your degree? It was obviously a party school, I want to make sure nobody I care about ever goes there.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:00 pm UTC

The author completely fails to acknowledge the possibility that people wear jeans because they are comfortable. He simply assumes that all jeans-wearers do so out of contempt for more fashionable clothing.

There are many people who don't care to look like Fred Astaire. Their affectations are not a personal attack on your fashion sense.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Gellert1984 » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:08 pm UTC

Another point being that if we should all look like fred astaire, wouldnt we all be wearing rotted and maggot eaten suits?
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby frezik » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:39 pm UTC

You know, I give George Will a measure of respect for being one of the last bits of intellectualisim on the right. He's making it a lot harder to do that lately.
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:45 pm UTC

1) Hmm give Will some slack on this one. George Will is hands down a great Conservative with actual principles who cares about his ideas more than a party. While I think the article was crap, this is not his norm.

2) The article looked like an old mans attempt to deal with the changing world and his discomfort in it. Probably influenced by his white privledge and sheltered view of the world, he longs for the old days when people dressed up and a certain decorum was expected versus the anything goes attitude of today.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby SJ Zero » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:53 pm UTC

Changing world my ass.

Jeans have been fashionable for 60 years, and a staple of fashion for 50. The guy was about 7 when they first became a fashion, and about 17 when they became mainstream. HOW MUCH TIME DO YOU NEED TO ADAPT?

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Kizyr » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:18 pm UTC

No one caught my favorite part of the article yet?
Seventy-five percent of American "gamers" -- people who play video games -- are older than 18 and nevertheless are allowed to vote.

Yes, damn that newfangled entertainment! In my youth we never did anything entertaining and were happy with it!

The rest of it is so silly that it's hard to believe he's serious. KF
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby headprogrammingczar » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:33 pm UTC

I thought nSync always sucked...
Also, I laughed when he actually used the word "gamer".
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby JoshuaZ » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:38 pm UTC

You know, George Will used to be one of the people I'd bring up when left wing friends claimed that all prominent conservativespundits were idiots. Between this column and some of his other recent idiocy I think I'm going to have to stop using him as an example. Sigh.

Now more relevant to the article in question:
I wear jeans all the time. They are comfortable, durable and (for the ones I buy at least) cheap. Clothing can be a signaling mechanism (consider religious clothing or simply what wearing a suit signals). So in that regard he is correct. However, George Will seems to be engaging in at least two mistakes.

First, Will seems to think that cultural attitudes about specific types of clothing cannot change over time and thus that the signals don't change at all. He makes that almosr explicit when he says "If Fred Astaire would not have worn it, don't wear it. For women, substitute Grace Kelly." It is almost like he doesn't think that cultures ever change. Would that rule have been the same in 1850? 1800? 1750? How long will this be true? Moreover, given that people can be living at the same time and still be from different cultures how does he decide that his cultures manner of dress is better than others?

Second, He doesn't seem to understand that there can be circumstances where one set of clothing is appropriate even when in other circumstances it isn't. For example, contrast spending time on a beach, moving into a new apartment, and going to a job interview.

The old George Will would have done a better job thinking about this. I do hope we will see him again soon.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Garm » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:09 pm UTC

G. Will should return to writing about baseball. He did that pretty competently. Sports reporting is generally quite conservative anyway so he'd feel right at home.
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Vaniver » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:28 pm UTC

Eh. The man's a columnist, he's allowed to write about his opinions.

As for the article itself, of course it's weak. He's writing about fashion. But you'll note the difference between his and Akst's articles (at least, if you read them both)- instead of just complaining about its appearance and comfort, he connects it to a social trend- the immaturity (as Will sees it) of adults.

I imagine that makes him seem even more wrong to the jeans-wearing, video-game playing young adults who frequent this forum (of which I am one)- but it is an accurate depiction of the current state of affairs. For people who like formal wear, it's got to be a depressing world.


Besides, here's an analogy which will probably make more sense for the denizens of this forum: imagine someone complaining about suburbanite white kids wearing ghetto fashion. Suburbanites and urbanites wearing agrarian fashion is pretty much the same.

Now, you can respond that jeans aren't just agrarian fashion anymore- and that's a valid way to look at things. But the history is there, and you have to have a similar view of other fashion shifts.
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby SJ Zero » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:35 pm UTC

It's ironic then, that I read his complaining in the same voice as some kid going "I hate emos, they're soooo lame"

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby 0range » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:51 pm UTC

I think we can all agree that those pre-bleached jeans are pretty lame.
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby SJ Zero » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:53 pm UTC

Yes, but the pre-nicotine stained jeans are the worst. They're always on sale at the local store, but they look like a crack addict's pants. Why would I want to look like a crack addict who never washes his pants?

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby folkhero » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:16 pm UTC

Will's arguments that our culture is becoming too childish are just so bad. Adults that act like children in comedies: are we supposed to believe that this comedic archetype is a recent invention and that The Three Stooges exemplified maturity? Cartoons for adults: is their any inherent reason that animation is more childish than live action? It seems pretty clear that the conception that 'cartoons are only for kids' is a cultural artifact. The fact that cartoons are now being made for adults means that it is an outdated cultural artifact, not that adults are becoming more like children. The same goes for video games. What makes playing video games inherently more childish than racing yachts, playing sports, or watching other adults play sports?

Will's fashion utopia seems to be a place where those who can afford it will dress like Fred Astaire everywhere they go, so that those who can't afford it can be more easily put in their place. This is a particularly ungenerous interpretation, I admit, but if he wants to fling insults at my pastime of video games without doing his research, then I'm probably not going to be very receptive to his argument. I'll tell you what, if he plays through Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, Planescape Torment, and Rome: Total War before saying that video games are only for kids, then I'll try dressing like Fred Astaire every time I leave the house before saying that he's an elitist prick.
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby SJ Zero » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:19 pm UTC

Your image seems relevant to the conversation, Folkhero.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby The Reaper » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:23 pm UTC

SJ Zero wrote:Yes, but the pre-nicotine stained jeans are the worst. They're always on sale at the local store, but they look like a crack addict's pants. Why would I want to look like a crack addict who never washes his pants?

I find the pre-nicotine stained holey jeans to be the worse. I mean, stained jeans with the holes already in there? You can't just give jeans character chemically and then sell them for $100+. It's just sick.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Texas_Ben » Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:49 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:For people who like formal wear, it's got to be a depressing world.

Not at all, dressing formally gets you mad respect. When I go into stores or other establishments normally, I am generally ignored and left to my own devices (fine by me). However, this past winter I found a long black (navy blue?) trench coat at a thrift store (And we aren't talking about the kind of trench coat that sad children wear to metal concerts, I would definitely wear this in a noir film). If I wear said classy coat (and of course wearing a classy coat means wearing a classy shirt under it) I get all manner of "good afternoon sir" and "can I help you sir?". Employees wish me a good weekend, and are helpful and friendly.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Velict » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:14 am UTC

This guy appears to be a moron.

The general consensus in the fashion community is not that jeans are unfashionable. Will doesn't seem to realize that casual and sloppy are not the same thing. Wearing jeans and a wife-beater is sloppy; wearing a nice pair of jeans and a high-quality button-up is casual but hardly sloppy, however.

Ok in the first half I kinda understand his point, people spending £120 on a pair of designer jeans is pretty sad.


I respectfully disagree. Wearing fitted, comfortable, durable clothing is one of the simple pleasures of life. At £120 - often less, particular if you don't buy at full retail - you can find high-quality jeans that look good and last a long time. Your appearance is something worth putting a little bit of effort and investment into: it's occasionally useful within your career, and one of the first things a woman is going to notice (believe it or not, they most certainly can tell the difference between cheap clothing and nicer clothing, and overwhelmingly prefer the latter).

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Bakemaster » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:10 am UTC

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Flying Betty » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:06 am UTC

Normally I have a fair amount of respect for George Will, but this is pretty ridiculous. Grace Kelly may be gorgeous, but her fashion isn't exactly practical for crawling around and plugging things in and other stuff that I do on a regular basis.

He does have a bit of a point on the sloppiness/respect thing, though. I find that I get much better service in stores when I'm coming from work and dressed respectably than when I'm wearing jeans and a nerdy t-shirt. It doesn't help that I look about 19, and salespeople don't usually assume that a 19 year old would be buying a new car or a grown up couch or something, but when I'm dressed like a working adult I tend to get treated like one. (Of course, I get better service in Best Buy in the nerdy t-shirt. Go figure.)
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Malvolio » Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:59 pm UTC

Man, George Will is old.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Pandercolour » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:13 pm UTC

Velict wrote:This guy appears to be a moron.
.

Appears to be? Have you seen his face? It's a classic "I'm so out of touch it's crazy, why am I still alive" face elderly social roadblocks possess.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Mega D » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:19 pm UTC

Be sure to check out his column next week: Uphill Both Ways Through Eight Feet of Snow.

I'd also like to take this moment to pitch my upcoming unauthorized biography, "Get Off My Goddamn Lawn: The George Will Story".

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Pandercolour » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:36 pm UTC

Mega D wrote:I'd also like to take this moment to pitch my upcoming unauthorized biography, "Get Off My Goddamn Lawn: The George Will Story".

He really hates when them durn kids are on his lawn wearing jeans talking about their phones and their lollipops and their vidja gams.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby faranim » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:09 pm UTC


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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Zamfir » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:25 pm UTC

I wanted to read the piece and defend it, just to play devil's advocate. But it really sucks on all levels.

But there is something interesting about it. I mean, this man is hardly stupid, he has been surrounded by men in jeans for his entire life, and the first complaints about shabby jeans and infantile adults are from before his birth. The same applies for his readers. So why is he writing the piece?

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby headprogrammingczar » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:52 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:But there is something interesting about it. I mean, this man is hardly stupid, he has been surrounded by men in jeans for his entire life, and the first complaints about shabby jeans and infantile adults are from before his birth. The same applies for his readers. So why is he writing the piece?

Apparently he isn't as "hardly stupid" as he seems...
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Zamfir » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:06 am UTC

Apparently he isn't as "hardly stupid" as he seems...


No, the points made in that article are so old and tired that even the rebuttals are already old and tired, and I am quite sure that the author knew exactly what kind of reponses he would get. He still wrote it, presumably because he thinks it will resonate with his audience, even if most them wear jeans from time to time. And note that he is not alone: he writes in response to an article in the Wall Street Journal.

There is something funny about pieces, they both use jeans as a sort of metaphore for a "national spirit" that is causing the problems of America. In a very round about way they are absolving the suit-wearing Wall Street Journal readers from blame. look at this quote:

If hypocrisy had a flag, it would be cut from denim, for it is in denim that we invest our most nostalgic and destructive agrarian longings -- the ones that prompted all those exurban McMansions now sliding off their manicured lawns and into foreclosure, dragging down the global financial system with them.


it is just anther form of saying that the jeans-wearing normal people have caused the crisis with their status envy and borrowing, while suggesting that the suit-wearers where at the worst neutral facilitators, not active contributors of the crisis. For a certain public, this is a very attractive message, even if they know that the jeans part is just cosmetics.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby lesliesage » Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:32 pm UTC

Don't worry, everyone! I've renounced my Satan Leg Tubes.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby e946 » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:20 pm UTC

Not to change the subject, but this is one of the worst thread titles of late.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Indon » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:52 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:For people who like formal wear, it's got to be a depressing world.

Not as depressing as for those who like bell-bottom pants.

I mean, formal wear might come back one day.

That said, (modern) denim is a comfortable, breathable, durable, inexpensive fabric. One of my pairs of jeans is near 7 years old, and still serviceable without ever having been mended (though it's an anomaly, I've gotten rid of all its' peers by now). And I don't buy jeans for more than 30 bucks.

Jeans, so long as you aren't buying them pre-aged from designer fashion-factories, are just as functional as they were upon their conception, and they're just as functional for a home environment as they are outside.

Plus, if you buy a cheaper knockoff brand instead of the overpriced, designer pieces, people aren't even likely to notice, let alone care... I'd like to see someone say that about suits or tuxedos.

The article writer doesn't appear to realize that 'vanity' is not a new word.
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Dibley » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:57 pm UTC

Personally, I quite like the pre-aged jeans. Not the ones that come with holes/stains, but the stone washed ones. Their much softer and more comfortable than "fresh" jeans, and the hit to durability is not an issue as I will wear "real" jeans if I'm going to be doing anything destructive, and I rarely pay more than $5 dollars for them anyways.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Maurog » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:47 am UTC

Hmm the thread title is funny, because in Communist Russia behind the iron curtain, jeans were considered a major symbol of the West. They just didn't make these blue jeans in Russia, the only way to get any was to bring them from abroad. Which people did on every possible occasion, of which there were few, and became an object of much envy from their jeansless peers, complete with rants from the patriotically inclined on the subject of decaying morality which the very same jeans signified.
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Gellert1984 » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:53 am UTC

I hereby vote in a democratic fashion that the thread name should be changed to 'george will is a communist!' based on the above information.
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby headprogrammingczar » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:03 pm UTC

Gellert1984 wrote:I hereby vote in a democratic fashion that the thread name should be changed to 'Maurog is a communist!' based on the above information.

Fixed that for you. George Will is just being an idiot GOOD PATRIOT! Clearly Maurog, with his intimate knowledge of all things fashion, is an enemy of freedom everywhere.
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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby Alexius » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:17 pm UTC

Maurog wrote:Hmm the thread title is funny, because in Communist Russia behind the iron curtain, jeans were considered a major symbol of the West. They just didn't make these blue jeans in Russia, the only way to get any was to bring them from abroad. Which people did on every possible occasion, of which there were few, and became an object of much envy from their jeansless peers, complete with rants from the patriotically inclined on the subject of decaying morality which the very same jeans signified.

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Re: JEANS ARE COMMUNIST!!!1!!

Postby RynTheTyn » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:12 pm UTC

If you're going to be truly well dressed, in my less-than-humble opinion, you need to know how to select the right clothes for the right occasion. Wearing formal clothes in an informal setting is just as much a fashion faux pas as wearing casual clothes in a formal setting. The key to dressing well is to always wear precisely the right thing for the moment without looking like you were trying too hard. That's something Grace Kelly knew how to do, and that's why she's a fashion icon, not because she followed some arbitrary formality rules set out by guys like George Will.

Though, to make sure that people know that I'm a college educated adult and not a highschool kid, I do have to go for the power suit/stiletto shoe combo. As much as people who are older than me love to tell me that I should be glad to look young, they aren't the ones still getting carded for R-rated movies when they're almost 30.


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