Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

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CorruptUser
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:55 pm UTC

Yes and no. Public officials are a bit different; the trope of people faking a crime in order to blackmail someone is not completely baseless, Ralph Nader had two prostitutes try to frame him back when he went after GM. You could get 8 women willing to claim Obama raped them when he was in college if they thought it'd get him arrested. Doesn't have to be Harvard students, just women (or men) that could prove they were in Boston at the same time as him.

That said, Roy Moore probably is guilty.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ucim » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:41 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:What about two, three, four, or even more witnesses -- all of which are corroborated by people who did not witness the event, but confirm the witnesses in question discussed these events with them prior to the case going to trial?
Depends how the trial progresses. I wasn't in that courtroom, and (thus) wasn't on the jury. Even if I were, I'd be one voice in twelve. Yes, the more credible evidence I read about from credible sources the more I'm convinced, but still not enough to drop the "if true" part.

If true, that politician should resign.

Don't convict before trial, lest you become one of them.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:09 am UTC

Ucim, I assume you are aware of the difference between "probably guilty" and "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt". Given that a person is found "not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", what would you say the odds are that the person is actually guilty?

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:18 am UTC

ucim wrote:Depends how the trial progresses. I wasn't in that courtroom, and (thus) wasn't on the jury. Even if I were, I'd be one voice in twelve. Yes, the more credible evidence I read about from credible sources the more I'm convinced, but still not enough to drop the "if true" part.

If true, that politician should resign.

Don't convict before trial, lest you become one of them.

Jose
So you don't think we should believe someone is guilty until they've been tried and found guilty? IE, you believe in the infallibility of the justice system? What about situations where there's no trial involved -- should we just presume guilt is impossible to determine in these cases?

If not, under what circumstances am I allowed to believe that someone is guilty regardless of what a court might say?

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ucim » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:34 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote: Given that a person is found "not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt"
First, one is not found "not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", one is found "not guilty-beyond-a-reasonable-doubt". That said, if that is the finding, they should be given the presumption of innocence. That's what our law, culture, and civilization are based on. Not doing so invites the lynch mobs, and you may be the next (unfair) target.

The Great Hippo wrote:So you don't think we should have solid opinions regarding the guilt of someone until...
You're of course welcome to your opinions; just be careful in calling for action based on those opinions. And no, the courts are not infallible. But I suspect they are less fallible than the media, whose purpose ultimately is to sell papers and ads, not to encourage rational discourse.

Were it the other way around, why have courts in the first place?

Note - through all this I am not stating an opinion on the underlying case - my opinion about doesn't matter. I'm addressing only the knee-jerk reflex of "burn her anyway!". After all, there are ways of finding out whether or not she's a witch.

Jose
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:04 am UTC

For my part, the difference between refraining from judgement in cases in the news like these and refraining from judgement in matters in my personal life is that I am more likely to be reasonably well-informed about things that I am personally involved with and people that I personally know. I probably could research all of the claims that have been made by various people and their histories inasmuch as those are publicly available and work to try to form a reasonably well-informed opinion about the veracity of the claims being made, but seeing as how me having an opinion one way or another will have no effect on any of the people actually involved, neither hurting nor helping anyone, there's no need for me to do that, and I'm free to refrain from judgement.

With things I'm involved with in my personal life, my opinion is far more likely to matter, so if I'm not well-informed enough to form one, I'd better get informed. Though even then, sometimes I still have to just withhold judgement, e.g. from past experience I don't put it past my mom to lie to save face with me, but I want to give her the benefit of the doubt to be supportive of her, so if someone accuses her of some misbehavior, and there's nothing I have to do about it, I just suspend judgement; I neither argue against her accusers nor against her protests to the contrary, whatever happened happened and I'm trying not to be involved.
Last edited by Pfhorrest on Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:10 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:08 am UTC

ucim wrote:You're of course welcome to your opinions; just be careful in calling for action based on those opinions.
Okay. I will be careful, and continue to exercise a healthy amount of skepticism when I feel it is appropriate to do so.

I will also continue to presume guilt -- and even go so far as to occasionally call for action! -- in situations where I think it's clear the person is guilty. For example, in cases where there are multiple independent accusers who have had their accounts corroborated by those around them -- particularly cases where accusers have nothing to gain, everything to lose, and no history of previous malfeasance.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:24 am UTC

Sometimes you just have to get involved for various reasons and make judgments. Perhaps not in this rape case, but you may be called for jury duties or worse: Some woman or girl you know could get raped. And then you have to take a side, or at least everyone shall expect you to take a side, so exercising judgment on a rape case is just an extension of a moral call to action most people feel when they hear about tragedies. No, it's not right to become overly judging, to accuse someone and destroy their lives regardless of their guilt or innocence... yet... most rape claims DO NOT completely destroy men's lives. They go on living, and sometimes continuously sexually abusing, whether they caught red-handed and brought to trial or not. Judging a man guilty of rape... in the public's eyes... is NOT the same thing as condemning a man to a Guilty verdict in a trial of his peers and the law. It's just not and equating... judging the verdict of a rape trial publicly... to condemning an innocent man to prison is, honestly, insulting and wrong.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Yakk » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:18 pm UTC

ucim wrote:Were it the other way around, why have courts in the first place?

Courts exist as a double-check on the government monopoly on the use of force.

The government is restricted (at least in theory) from using force beyond a certain level without the courts double-checking that the use of force is reasonable and toward a legitimate end.

To this end, the criminal courts hold a standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt". Imprisonment and similar penalties can result from a criminal court judgement.

The civil courts, on the other hand, hold a standard of "balance of probabilities", because civil court *direct* judgements are about mere money and not direct use of force on individuals. (Enforcing said judgement may be done with force).

In the case where the governments use of force monopoly (to imprison people, enforce rules, or compel action) is not in question, the courts themselves have no purpose.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:27 pm UTC

TL;DR: Calls for due process should be blind to class, race, etc. Often, they are not. But they should be.

Warning: contains auto-loading video

Member of Central Park Five slams Trump hypocrisy for ‘due process’ defense

Spoiler:
BY TOM PORTER ON 2/12/18 AT 7:10 AM

A man who was jailed for five and a half years for an attack on a jogger of which he was later acquitted has branded President Donald Trump a hypocrite for calling for "due process" over domestic abuse allegations against a White House staffer.

Yusef Salaam, a member of the so-called Central Park Five, was one of five black and Latino teenagers jailed for the 1989 attack on jogger Trisha Meili. His conviction was quashed in 2002.

Salaam said that Trump had little concern for due process when, in 1989, he took out a full-page newspaper advertisement ahead of their trial, calling for Salaam and four other teenagers accused of the attack to be executed.

"Here you had Donald Trump taking out a full-page ad, two weeks in, rushing to judgement. Finding out 13 years later after he did all that that we were not the real culprits," he said.

“The Central Park Five, their families,” Salaam said. “We were not able to move on with our lives. Our lives were completely destroyed and devastated.”

“Any kind of dream or idea or goal that we had in life was quickly erased by this accusation,” he said.

On Saturday, another member of the five, Raymond Santana, also criticized Trump for his hypocrisy. “You should have spoke like that back in 1989,” Santana wrote of Trump's tweet.

Trump tweeted the remarks Saturday after a second White House staffer, David Sorensen, resigned over his ex-wife's allegations that he physically and psychologically abused her during their two-year marriage. Sorensen denies the claims.

The Central Park Five were exonerated after DNA evidence cleared them and another criminal admitted to the attack. Defenders say they had been coerced into confessing by police in a series of brutal interrogations. Despite this, Trump has refused to back down, reiterating his belief in their guilt in 2016.

"They admitted they were guilty," Trump said to CNN in a statement.

"The police doing the original investigation say they were guilty. The fact that that case was settled with so much evidence against them is outrageous. And the woman, so badly injured, will never be the same."

The MSNBC video of Yusef Salaam speaking for himself is definitely worth watching.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby addams » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:41 pm UTC

sardia wrote:It's always weird when your opinion aligns with Trump. Maybe this is one of those "broken clock is right once a day" type thing.
When a clock is so broken it does not move at all, it is Right twice a day.
Spoiler:
If that clock is broken, yet, the hands still move...
Well then,,,The math get really hard.
Nothing to do with the Topic.
I, just, know about broken clocks.


edit: As long as I've stumbled Off Topic:
I understand ObsessoMom's reluctance to become what we oppose.

ObsessoMom wrote:
Spoiler:
Sort of a side issue, but while I'm on the topic of becoming what we're opposing:

I'm frustrated that, after three tries, I've finally had to give up on going to local marches to protest Trump's hatred and indecency. All three times, I've left early and in disgust, because so many numbers of protesters around me have been either chanting or waving slogans of sexual violence like "Fuck Trump." Just as we can't fight fire with fire, we can't fight hatred, indecency, and rape culture with hatred, indecency, and rape culture. We just can't.

We've gotta stay on message, and promote actions that all of those opposed to indecency can unite behind. And a lot of people in my demographic are NOT going to be comfortable uniting behind "Fuck Trump," or "Punch Nazis," or "Immediately Tar and Feather Everyone Accused of Sexual Harassment." We are, however, doing a lot of other politically active things.
ObsessoMom wrote:I don't know. I still have grave doubts that insulting and threatening people is the best way to teach them to be respectful of others' dignity. That seems as hypocritical as trying to teach kids that hitting is wrong, by spanking them.

Being the recipient of bad treatment may teach some people empathy for the recipients of bad treatment, and may therefore make them less likely to treat others badly; however, for many people, the experience just seems to reinforce the idea that being able to get away with treating others badly is the true measure of power.
ObsessoMom wrote:Spend hours composing the perfect, most well-reasoned reply, to convince them of the error of their ways forever?

Nah. Even the perfect reply will be wasted on certain people.

Maybe something like a sarcastic "Wow, I'm shocked that women fail to appreciate your obvious charms" will convey your disapproval, without giving the trolls the satisfaction of a big reaction when they yank your chain.
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That is how we tell 'us' from 'them'.

I think ObsessoMom has made an important point.
It is an important conversation.
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el matematico
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby el matematico » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:05 pm UTC

Atheist and skeptic Lawrence Krauss has predatory tendencies, apparently.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Sableagle » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:32 pm UTC

Saw a vid a few days ago that's relevant to this thread.

Just went looking for it. Started a YouTube search for her username. Suggested popular searches that I might mean popped up.
icklenellierose
icklenellierose boyfriend
icklenellierose procrastination
icklenellierose dance


Jesus, people. *headdesk*

Anyway, that vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zux9_yWM7OM

Also on-topic: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 43066.html

Ito decided to do something women in Japan almost never do: She spoke out. Elsewhere, her allegations might have caused an uproar. But here in Japan, they attracted only a smattering of attention. Ito’s story is a stark example of how sexual assault remains a subject to be avoided in Japan, where few women report rape to the police and their complaints rarely result in arrests or prosecution when they do.

On paper, Japan boasts relatively low rates of sexual assault. In a survey conducted by the Cabinet Office of the central government in 2014, one in 15 women reported experiencing rape at some time in their lives, compared with one in five women who report having been raped in the United States.

But scholars say Japanese women are far less likely to describe nonconsensual sex as rape than women in the West. Japan’s rape laws make no mention of consent, date rape is essentially a foreign concept and education about sexual violence is minimal.

Instead, rape is often depicted in manga comics and pornography as an extension of sexual gratification, in a culture in which such material is often an important channel of sex education.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby SDK » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:13 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zux9_yWM7OM

I've been to a gay bar once in my life. Went along with a few friends of mine. I'm not gay, but sure, why not? While there, I was groped on the dance floor several times in several different ways, and received a very sudden and unexpected kiss while waiting for my drink at the bar. When I complained about all this later to my friends, all the girls in the group laughed saying that that's just every night at any other club for them. Gave me a very different perspective on the type of sexual harassment that most men just don't face every day.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:31 pm UTC

I'm someone who never really goes to bars, and a female friend I knew from karaoke at a bowling alley once invited me to karaoke at a real bar, whereupon I got to see firsthand how bar people treat her (uninvited groping and such), which appalled me but didn't seem to faze her because that's just what bars are like I guess? Real eye-opener, not even being on the receiving end of it.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Mutex » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:58 pm UTC

SDK wrote:
Sableagle wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zux9_yWM7OM

I've been to a gay bar once in my life. Went along with a few friends of mine. I'm not gay, but sure, why not? While there, I was groped on the dance floor several times in several different ways, and received a very sudden and unexpected kiss while waiting for my drink at the bar. When I complained about all this later to my friends, all the girls in the group laughed saying that that's just every night at any other club for them. Gave me a very different perspective on the type of sexual harassment that most men just don't face every day.

I think it partly explains why some men are homophobic, they're worried they're going to get treated the way they treat women.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ObsessoMom » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:35 pm UTC

I saw this story this weekend in the San Diego Union-Tribune. If it's not obvious, the unmentioned "state" is California.

State court agency spent $600,000 to settle sexual harassment claims against judges, employees

The administrative agency for the state court system has paid out more than $600,000 since 2011 to investigate and settle claims of sexual harassment against judges and court employees, but won’t identify the judges and employees involved or provide details of the incidents.

Lawyers for the state Judicial Council, the policy-making and administrative body for the state’s vast court system, said that the agency has paid out $296,000 to settle sexual harassment claims against three judges.

Another $225,000 was spent settling two claims against court employees, and $79,750 spent on lawyers and investigators.

The information was released after a request in January from [the San Diego Union-Tribune] U-T Watchdog for all records of claims and payments made by the agency for judges and court employees who were accused of sexual harassment or misconduct.

[...I'm omitting a discussion of the institutional resistance the journalists encountered when they requested this info...]

The agency also noted that it has no information on any claims or payments made from before 2010.

[...snip...]

Some judges have been publicly accused of sexual harassment or misconduct. In 2015 the Commission on Judicial Performance, the disciplinary agency for state judges, removed a Tulare County Superior Court judge from the bench. He was accused of having an improper relationship with a court clerk, then lying about it.

A judge from Orange County and another from Kern County were disciplined a year earlier for having sex with court workers. And just last autumn The San Jose Mercury News reported that the longtime San Jose-based Court of Appeal Presiding Justice Conrad Rushing retired amid accusations of sexual harassment, discrimination against women and bigotry.


I understand client-attorney privilege, and the need to protect members of the judicial system from retaliation from the people they sentence. But the resulting dearth of details about most of these settlements creates an environment in which the misconduct of judges and court employees is hidden from view, and there's no personal liability since the settlements and legal costs are paid by the state. Not a lot of disincentive there.

The same SD-UT reporter has been writing about the sexist nicknames that Judge Kreep (yes, his real name) had been giving attorneys in his court. Judge Kreep is on the ballot this June.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby mashnut » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:13 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:The same SD-UT reporter has been writing about the sexist nicknames that Judge Kreep (yes, his real name) had been giving attorneys in his court. Judge Kreep is on the ballot this June.


From that story:

Last fall several lawyers said he was absent often from the court frequently, but court officials said then he had not violated attendance rules which say a judge can’t miss more than 90 days in a 12-month period.


How is missing 90 days in a year even remotely acceptable?

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby arbiteroftruth » Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:16 pm UTC

I'm not knowledgeable on the subject, but I would guess that the 90 day figure is intended to cover things like hospitalizations or other special reasons for an extended leave of absence, and using it for general absences is an abuse of the intent.


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