Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby slinches » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:45 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Also can you clarify for me, because I'm not up on all of the details: in these recent cases, were accusations leveled way back when at the time of the events, and only now believed; or are the accusations only now being aired, because back when it happened people were too scared for their jobs (etc) to come forward? If no accusations were leveled back then, then it's not a case of accusations being easily brushed off. But I'm not sure if that's the case or not, so if you know I'd appreciate clarification.

In the Weinstein, Larry Nassar and Cosby cases, it seems like there were private accusations and rumors for a long time. At least for Nassar there was a history of specific complaints against him, but none individually was solid enough to make a strong case against such a powerful and well regarded person. So they got away with it until victims felt comfortable enough to make public statements which could be seen and corroborated by other victims. The combined testimony made the reality sink in that these people were serial molesters/harassers.

In light of these cases, it's clear that we need to support victims and help them be comfortable in coming forward with accusations. There has been a big enough taboo in our culture to silence them in the past, which is changing and needs to continue to do so. That's one of the biggest positives to come out of the #MeToo thing, I think. It has made it clear that there is general public support and specific support for the individuals who have been wronged and come forward.

I don't think the specific cases I mentioned add to the whole "assumption of guilt" thing, though. That is caused by other stories like the Google memo guy. He got fired very publicly because he wrote an internal memo that criticized the approach the company was taking on diversity, which someone else leaked to the press.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Zamfir » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:51 pm UTC

slinches wrote:At least for Nassar there was a history of specific complaints against him, but none individually was solid enough to make a strong case against such a powerful and well regarded person.

In that light I think it's useful to see how a non-solid case looked like:

Brianne Randall-Gay was 17 when she was treated for scoliosis by Nassar, who massaged her breasts and attempted to put his fingers in her vagina. Randall-Gay’s mother subsequently complained to Meridian Township police department. However, Nassar said the treatment was part of “a medical technique known as Sacrotuberous Ligament Release” and gave police a PowerPoint presentation on the subject.

"Yes, all the accusations are true. But it's OK because made up word. " That's it. That's the level of defense you need to get away with it, for decades.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:05 pm UTC

Sacrotuberous ligament release actually is a medical procedure, and it does involve digital penetration. The difference between a number of procedures and sexual assault is only whether they are medically necessary, and when the doctor says they are, well...

I'm reminded of the Family Guy episode where Dr Hartman is arrested for supposedly raping all the men in Quahog through prostate exams.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:26 pm UTC

I never, ever wanna have doctors or nurses... touching down... there. Even for, "Medically necessary procedures," it's as bad as r**e, and? If they wanna find out whether or not there was sexual misconduct they can just ask me. I know medical evidence can prove or disprove a case yet? All the times I get: Laughed at by medical professionals even when I r**ed and abused, laughed at for having the wrong parts and? If they did their, "medically necessary procedures," they discover my worst, darkest, nightmarish secrets and won't treat me medically for my sexual injuries anymore?
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:29 pm UTC

Yeah, I think all medical professionals need a sensitivity training course regarding trans issues, sex workers, and trans sex workers. You can bitch to each other about patients, but not to the patients themselves.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby natraj » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:45 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Sacrotuberous ligament release actually is a medical procedure, and it does involve digital penetration. The difference between a number of procedures and sexual assault is only whether they are medically necessary, and when the doctor says they are, well...


that's not true, though. even if a procedure is medically necessary the difference between it and assault is still consent. in the case of doctors, if they're making up lies about what's necessary in order to gain consent to touch people where they otherwise wouldn't, that's also a violation of their medical ethics as well as not genuinely allowing people to give informed consent BUT even in the case of truly medically relevant and needed procedures, they can't just give them to patients against their will.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:54 pm UTC

Actually, doctors are required to give treatment against the will of the patient in many cases. Usually life or death, but when you have a mentally incapacitated patient there's issues there too.

I remember hearing about a case with an extreme burn victim that was recovering for a year. Dax Cowart, according to google. The patient begged for death, but the doctors still treated him against his wishes, even after he attempted several suicides.
Last edited by CorruptUser on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:01 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Zohar » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:58 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Actually, doctors are required to give treatment against the will of the patient in many cases. Usually life or death, but when you have a mentally incapacitated patient there's issues there too.

I think it's fair to assume an Olympic athlete being treated for scoliosis is able to provide consent, is not mentally incapacitated, and it's not a life-or-death issue.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:02 pm UTC

Yes, true, but if the doctor lies about necessity it's molestation not medicine.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby sardia » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:02 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Actually, doctors are required to give treatment against the will of the patient in many cases. Usually life or death, but when you have a mentally incapacitated patient there's issues there too.

I think it's fair to assume an Olympic athlete being treated for scoliosis is able to provide consent, is not mentally incapacitated, and it's not a life-or-death issue.

That's like saying your financial advisor didn't rape your investment account because you are an adult who consented to it. They trusted him, the authority figure lied, and the system let them down.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby slinches » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:09 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Actually, doctors are required to give treatment against the will of the patient in many cases. Usually life or death, but when you have a mentally incapacitated patient there's issues there too.

I think it's fair to assume an Olympic athlete being treated for scoliosis is able to provide consent, is not mentally incapacitated, and it's not a life-or-death issue.

True, although I could see consent becoming a bit complicated when that athlete is a minor and their parents consent for them.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Dauric » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:14 pm UTC

slinches wrote:
Zohar wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Actually, doctors are required to give treatment against the will of the patient in many cases. Usually life or death, but when you have a mentally incapacitated patient there's issues there too.

I think it's fair to assume an Olympic athlete being treated for scoliosis is able to provide consent, is not mentally incapacitated, and it's not a life-or-death issue.

True, although I could see consent becoming a bit complicated when that athlete is a minor and their parents consent for them.


This is the problem. When the medical professional convinces the parents of the necessity of a procedure, all the authority figures around the child are in agreement over the necessity of the "procedure" even when the parents are just bowing to the supposed authority of the medical professional. It's a huge amount of pressure on the child to comply, when they probably doesn't really understand what is going on and doesn't have the vocabulary or maturity to describe the issue with their parents.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:17 pm UTC

So, have the guardian present?

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby freezeblade » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:39 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:So, have the guardian present?


To my understanding, in the Larry Nassar case, the parents were present for the abuse. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/24/spor ... rents.html
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:44 pm UTC

I don't think children should be pressured into medical procedures, so, have the parents around to watch and make sure they don't force things on them? Yet, even with the parents present, medical professionals may try to, um, 'coerce a girl' into following their orders. Because they believe they are saving lives regardless of what their patients consent or not to and like: They going to pressure a girl until she gets her examination? SO... even with billions of adults' eyes always, forever watching to make sure nothing bad happens... if you're a minor in a tricky medical situation doctors and nurses just going to stomp on your concerns and either: Examine you anyways or send you back to your home after copious and infinite loving caring lectures, about what happen to you and then no follow ups, no further questioning about the incident, I mean I'm sure the complete ignoring of a patient in a risky situation after they are done receiving treatments is... complicated anyways? They send you on your way with no follow ups, after, repeatedly trying to get you to do a rape kit or whatever and your parents trying to get you to do it too.

LOL forever, 'How we NOT KNOW what happens to our kids?' Because parents: You weren't looking.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Zohar » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:47 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Zohar wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Actually, doctors are required to give treatment against the will of the patient in many cases. Usually life or death, but when you have a mentally incapacitated patient there's issues there too.

I think it's fair to assume an Olympic athlete being treated for scoliosis is able to provide consent, is not mentally incapacitated, and it's not a life-or-death issue.

That's like saying your financial advisor didn't rape your investment account because you are an adult who consented to it. They trusted him, the authority figure lied, and the system let them down.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly - this was obviously sexual assault, and you can't claim the doctor had any right to perform a procedure without consent, because of the reasons stated above.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby sardia » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:46 am UTC

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/ ... 5?lo=ap_c1
AntiSexual harassment lawmaker accused of sexual harassment. That politician should resign. The lawmaker cornered a young staffer and groped their genitals and butt.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ucim » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:22 am UTC

sardia wrote:AntiSexual harassment lawmaker accused of sexual harassment. That politician should resign.
Because xe was accused? Doesn't it matter whether or not xe actually did it, and what the circumstances were? And doesn't shouldn't that require more than a media article to convince you?

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:22 am UTC

Small, simplify answer: No. Longer answer: Sometimes, in politics and everyday life, resigning is the best choice in the wakes of scandals, whether they true or not. It's easier and more politically expedient to bow out or curtsy out instead of wasting time, monies and resources... and your entire adult lives... defending yourselves against accusations.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ucim » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:00 am UTC

While it may (sometimes) be most expedient for an individual to resign in the face of (perhaps baseless) accusations, I have a problem with expecting this behavior. Reasons should be obvious.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:06 am UTC

If a politician messes up in such a big way, and there is evidence, then resigning is the best choice for them and: After reading the article posted... to wit:

Article wrote:Fierro is not the only one claiming improper advances by Garcia. A prominent Sacramento lobbyist says she also accosted him in May 2017, when she cornered him, made a graphic sexual proposal, and tried to grab his crotch at a political fundraiser. He spoke to POLITICO on the condition of anonymity out of fear of reprisals.

Not the only one. A prominent lobbyist says it too. So we got a collusion of factors here: Fierro's accusation, and the lobbyist's accusations, so one, two accusations, fame and... I'm starting to believe Garcia did it?
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby sardia » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:11 pm UTC

ucim wrote:While it may (sometimes) be most expedient for an individual to resign in the face of (perhaps baseless) accusations, I have a problem with expecting this behavior. Reasons should be obvious.
Jose

First of all, it's not a single accusation. Secondly, she's also a drunkard, which she did not deny. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... e-staffer/
She can't even remember what she did. She even went with the Franken "I do not recall ".
she did not recall doing anything wrong. “The details of these claims have never been brought to my attention until today,” the statement read. “I can confirm that I did attend the 2014 legislative softball game with a number of members and my staff. I can also say I have zero recollection of engaging in inappropriate behavior and such behavior is inconsistent with my values.”Fierro, who now runs a communications firm, said Garcia was slurring her words and swaying back and forth when she approached him in the softball field dugout after the 2014 game. At first he was concerned about her falling over. Then, he said, she grabbed him.

“When she crossed that line, that’s when I was like, this is something completely different than I thought it was. I was shocked,” Fierro told The Post. “I didn’t know how to deal with it if it went any further.”
Fierro said he immediately told two co-workers about what happened. They confirmed to Politico that he had done so.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ucim » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:33 pm UTC

sardia wrote:First of all, it's not a single accusation. Secondly, she's also a drunkard, which she did not deny.
Is she Mexican too? Why bother having trials and evidence in the first place, when it's obvious who should be in jail? Lynch mobs are so much more fun.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby sardia » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:50 pm UTC

ucim wrote:Is she Mexican too? Why bother having trials and evidence in the first place, when it's obvious who should be in jail? Lynch mobs are so much more fun.

Jose

I didn't know that being Mexican is as serious as intoxication at work and sexual harassment. I also expect a way better denial then "I don't remember".
Trials are for jail sentences. You don't get a trial before we fire you. If you insist on more tortured metaphors, this is more akin to a plea bargain, which has no trial. It's her choice if she wants to bargain it down to resignation + cushy lobbying career or drag her coworkers in the mud in the hopes that it blows over. Which is why it's perfectly ok for people to call on her to resign. She should resign, and get some help on her drinking problem.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ucim » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:58 pm UTC

Whether she should resign or not isn't the issue. It's what exposes the issue, which is whether or not she should be expected to resign based on heresay. Lowering the burden of proof has its consequences.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby sardia » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:11 pm UTC

The burden of proof needed does have consequences. I wonder what the consequences are of having a high burden of proof for sexual harassment? Are you arguing that we should leave the burden of proof at Cosby levels? Or merely Bill Clinton levels?
Which is separate from the accused feeling so guilty that they resign anyway no matter how flimsy the accusation was.

I'm not blind to the consequences of an overreaction or possible uses by a really devious femme fatale.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ucim » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:40 pm UTC

By "burden of proof" I am referring to the court of public opinion, which is what's in play here. Should the public rally their pitchforks for every accusation? Some of those accusations may well be true, others may be false, and still others may fall into a murky multi-dimensional grey area. The public however wants simple answers to complex issues. Should this be fed, or resisted? That is the question.

It happens to come up here, in this context, but it comes up in other places and other contexts too. It's the same question, and it is what led the country to the mess it's in now.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:44 pm UTC

Ucim, the "court of public opinion" is colored by just about every woman having her own story. If sexual harassment wasn't so ubiquitous, then the pitchforks wouldn't come out for every accusation. Kind of a parallel with BLM.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ucim » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:41 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote: If sexual harassment wasn't so ubiquitous, then the pitchforks wouldn't come out for every accusation.
Isn't that exactly what stereotyping and prejudice are made of? Knee-jerks might be satisfying, but they are still not the best response.

Don't be a knee-jerk. Think before you kick.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Zamfir » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:46 pm UTC

Ucim, what is wrong with the standard used here? The newspaper appears to have done the source-checking legwork . There is a second, seemingly independent accusation that tells a similar story. The source of the accusation has no obvious interest in lying, the story is coherent and it's verifiable components (time, location) check out.

At that point, why is it knee-kerk to take it serious, or to judge it more plausible then the alternatives?After all, the alternative is basically some coordinated smear effort. Not impossible, but it's a bit strong that I have to take conspiracies serious every time such an accusation gets aired. After all, sexual harassment is common, such an outright lying, coordinated scheme is rare.

It's not enough for a criminal case, sure. But it surely enough for her reputation tovtake a grave hit, with the burden on her to explain why it shouldn't take that hit.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ucim » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:11 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:At that point, why is it knee-kerk to take it serious[ly]...
...because to react to newspaper accusations this way as a matter of course leads to reactionary non-thinking. My commentary isn't about this story itself, but rather, about the casual way that the existence of an accusation in the press is leading to calls for resignation, without any thought given to the circumstances in the case in question (which may be extenuating, or may not - I'm not offering an opinion on it because it's irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make).

To requote what I was reacting to:
sardia wrote:AntiSexual harassment lawmaker accused of sexual harassment. That politician should resign.
The post (which had the link) continued with an accusation-as-fact: "The lawmaker cornered a young staffer and groped their genitals and butt.", but there was no discussion about whether the accusation was in fact true, how it was determined that it was in fact true, and whether or not the circumstances mitigated whatever did happen. It was a knee-jerk post.

"That politician should resign."

Not, "If this is true, that politician should resign."

That is what I was reacting to.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:59 am UTC

We cannot like carefully lovingly scrutinize every court trial. Or accusations. So we got to believe the accusers if the stories are credible, multiple accusations, and there are? And sometimes the best thing a politician woman can do... is resign. Step down after doing what you need to do to make amends. Apologize and writhe a bit in public if you have to and then? Just step down and let a non-sexual abusing politician take your place.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Pfhorrest » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:14 am UTC

Not judging at all is also an option. And the one I usually take in most cases of a famous person being accused of anything, sexual or not. (Or any other stranger I hear of being accused of something, but why would I hear accusations against a stranger unless they were famous enough for those to be news?)

Did OJ kill Nicole? I don't know. I wasn't there, I haven't looked closely at the evidence, and it's none of my business. That's why we have courts. One (criminal) court said "maybe not", another (civil) court said "probably", so I guess... probably, but maybe not?

Did [insert celebrity] sexually harass [insert accusers]? I don't know, I wasn't there, I haven't looked closely at the evidence, and it's none of my business. I hope the accusers get a chance to present their case and are listened to fairly, and that the accused is presumed innocent until an applicable standard of evidence is met, and that the truth can be found out and justice served correctly one way or another. But I'm not a part of that process, I'm some rando on the internet overhearing about it all third hand, and it's not my place to judge.

I do however feel like these is intense social pressure to judge the same as whoever it is I'm in the presence of or else be seen as a monster of one stripe or another, and that really bothers me.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby elasto » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:01 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Not judging at all is also an option. And the one I usually take in most cases of a famous person being accused of anything, sexual or not. (Or any other stranger I hear of being accused of something, but why would I hear accusations against a stranger unless they were famous enough for those to be news?)

Did OJ kill Nicole? I don't know. I wasn't there, I haven't looked closely at the evidence, and it's none of my business. That's why we have courts. One (criminal) court said "maybe not", another (civil) court said "probably", so I guess... probably, but maybe not?

Did [insert celebrity] sexually harass [insert accusers]? I don't know, I wasn't there, I haven't looked closely at the evidence, and it's none of my business. I hope the accusers get a chance to present their case and are listened to fairly, and that the accused is presumed innocent until an applicable standard of evidence is met, and that the truth can be found out and justice served correctly one way or another. But I'm not a part of that process, I'm some rando on the internet overhearing about it all third hand, and it's not my place to judge.

I do however feel like these is intense social pressure to judge the same as whoever it is I'm in the presence of or else be seen as a monster of one stripe or another, and that really bothers me.

I think this is a pretty sensible approach and one all too ignored by many. However, it's worth pointing out that it's the very nature of social media in general (and message boards in particular) that those that care about a topic post and those that don't don't. Therefore there is going to be a severe overrepresentation of those sitting in judgement (or defense) and a severe underrepresentation of those that jdgaf.

(In a way, the Trump phenomenon is in part about a section of this silent grouping saying 'enough is enough with the knee-jerk social judging' and consciously voting in someone who sticks two fingers up at those desperate to jump on the next public bandwagon...)

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ObsessoMom » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:39 pm UTC

Preachy blather alert!

I've been thinking a lot lately about the role of societal standards in encouraging these three extremes:
  • the runaway bandwagon effect--"Let's punish people just based on rumors!"
  • the victim-blaming effect--"Let's automatically assume that the accusers are liars, because there's no hard evidence to prove that this wasn't really consensual--it's just he said, she said."
  • the let-bystanders-be-bystanders effect--"It's none of our business because it didn't happen to us, and who are we to judge?"
It seems to me that these effects are the result of the clash of two societal standards--two core principles of civilization, actually.

First, there's the notion that right doesn't make right, and that the strong should not be able to get away with victimizing the weak. We want to encourage people to empathize with each other, and treat each other with fairness and respect. This is basic Golden Rule and chivalry stuff.

Second, there's the notion that alleged victims shouldn't be automatically believed based on the fact that such crimes have been known to happen, or automatically dismissed based on the fact that false accusations and/or simple misunderstandings have also been known to happen. Each individual case should have due process, the presumption of innocence until proof of guilt, and the idea that justice should look impartially at the evidence, rather than empathizing with either of the parties involved.

Both of these things--empathy, and the lack of empathy required to be truly impartial--are important societal standards. And we assume that societal standards are what puts the brakes on bad behavior.

Unfortunately, the trouble with sociopaths is that they are so good at using societal standards to manipulate society into allowing them to justify their bad behavior.

The dynamic between bullies and their victims is only part of the power trips that bullies enjoy when they victimize people. The rest of the power trip comes from the dynamic between bullies and third parties. I.e., between bullies and wider society.

First, there are the power dynamics between bullies and their toadies (those who actively admire and empower them, because they wish they could do such things themselves).

Second, there are the power dynamics between bullies and bystanders (who often empathize with the accused--"Being wrongly accused could happen to me, so I had better give this person the benefit of the doubt!"--more strongly than with the accuser--"Being victimized like that would never happen to me in a million years, because I would be smart enough to handle it the right way, defuse the situation, go to the authorities with solid evidence instead of encouraging people on social media to pile on based only on hearsay, etc."

A sociopath like Trump brags, because he cares more about impressing toadies than about persuading less admiring people to remain bystanders. To impress a toady, he infamously bragged about grabbing women by the pussy. And he bragged that he wouldn't even lose his toadies' admiration if he were to publicly murder someone. To Trump-style sociopaths, social standards matter because they are a yardstick to measure how much more powerful he is than ordinary mortals, who are not allowed to transgress those standards.

A sociopath like Nassar doesn't brag, because he doesn't care about cultivating toadies. Instead, he makes PowerPoint presentations to persuade others to remain bystanders, because it's perfectly reasonable that young girls might misunderstand a bona fide, complicated medical technique...but you're much smarter than those young girls, and you can understand it when it's explained to you. To Nassar-style sociopaths, social standards like the presumption of innocence matter because they are tools that can be exploited to leverage their own transgressive behavior and allow it to continue.

Now, about that bandstand effect to rush to punish sociopaths like Trump and Nassar...

The people who are most bloodthirsty about the vigilante justice of social media crucifixions based on rumored accusations (and about the vigilante justice of, ahem, punching Nazis) are, I suspect, themselves Trump-style sociopaths and toadies. Think about it. They get a power rush from doing or advocating things that transgress the usual social standards against vigilante violence, and they play to a crowd of likeminded toadies happy to cheer them on and say that the usual social standards don't apply in this case. Isn't this just what Trump and his ilk are also doing?

We have to be careful not to become the thing we're battling.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:26 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:The people who are most bloodthirsty about the vigilante justice of social media crucifixions based on rumored accusations (and about the vigilante justice of, ahem, punching Nazis) are, I suspect, themselves Trump-style sociopaths and toadies. Think about it. They get a power rush from doing or advocating things that transgress the usual social standards against vigilante violence, and they play to a crowd of likeminded toadies happy to cheer them on and say that the usual social standards don't apply in this case. Isn't this just what Trump and his ilk are also doing?


Welcome to the Horseshoe Theory. Throughout history, the most vicious opponents have had the fewest differences, because nothing helps you hate someone more than truly understanding them. Islamists vs Christo-fascists. TERFs/SWERFs vs religious fundamentalists. White Supremacists vs Black Supremacists. Every single form of authoritarianism vs any other form.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby sardia » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:46 pm UTC

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/ ... too-398985
Update:
Lerna Shirinian, the communications director for Calderon, said “I remember it very clearly, he told me as soon as it happened..he was in shock, I was in shock — but the culture was very different back then,’’ Shirinian said, noting the admission was in confidence and she had to respect her friend’s decision not to report it. Another former legislative staffer, who spoke on condition of anonymity out of fear of reprisals, said Garcia was known to speak about sexual issues to young staffers in the office, sometimes in graphic detail, and occasionally to be a hard drinker in Sacramento.
He confirmed hearing Fierro’s account, saying he remembered the incident because Garcia was partying and drinking more heavily at the legislative softball game in celebration of her birthday. Records show the Assembly Legislative Softball game was August 20, 2014; Garcia’s birthday is August 22.

The Sacramento lobbyist never formally reported the matter out of concern for his clients.
But his account of the groping incident was corroborated by another high profile political operative in Sacramento, who declined to be named for publication. She said at the time the lobbyist was both angered and “humiliated” by the encounter, and disturbed that his sexual rejection of Garcia could have implications for his industry.
Both she — and the lobbyist — believe it may already have. The lobbyist said he has seen Garcia in an intoxicated state on several occasions around Sacramento, sometimes appearing to need help; he cited an evening late in 2016 when he said she emerged from an Old Town Sacramento bar with staffers, and urged him to come with them on “a pub crawl.”

He said he’s been particularly been bothered by the incident in the wake of Garcia’s national fame as a feminist leader on the #MeToo movement.
“I watched her jumping into this, and she’s Joan of Arc,’’ he said. “She’s pushing against people who have done a lot of things -- some worse than her, and some not.”
Fierro also pointed to the rise of the #MeToo movement as the impetus for finally admitting the incident to Calderon. He said he was assured by Assembly Rules that his complaint would be confidential — but within 48 hours of it reaching the committee, “I was getting calls” from outside sources who heard about it. “There was clearly a a leak.’’ After relating his experiences to the Assembly’s hired attorney last week, Fierro said he was also concerned that a significant part of the questioning appeared to be focused on about “How did it get out? Who did you tell?”
TLDR After anonymous complaint was submitted about Cristina's sexual harassment and drinking, it was immediately leaked. The assembly seemed more concerned about protecting themselves then actually investigating.
I understand that baseless accusation shouldn't end someone's career, but Cristina Garcia is probably not the hill you want to die on.
As for non judging, it protects your own ego, but it doesn't really help anyone. It would only matter if you actively went out and convinced everyone else that nonjudging was the correct decision, usually by judging them to make them feel bad.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ucim » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:26 pm UTC

sardia wrote:As for non judging, it protects your own ego, but it doesn't really help anyone.
...except in the manner that not gratuitously hurting people helps people and the society we're all in.

Jose
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Sableagle » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:33 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:The people who are most bloodthirsty about the vigilante justice of social media crucifixions based on rumored accusations (and about the vigilante justice of, ahem, punching Nazis) are, I suspect, themselves Trump-style sociopaths and toadies. Think about it. They get a power rush from doing or advocating things that transgress the usual social standards against vigilante violence, and they play to a crowd of likeminded toadies happy to cheer them on and say that the usual social standards don't apply in this case. Isn't this just what Trump and his ilk are also doing?


A couple of weeks ago, almost exactly 336 hours ago, in fact, I was one of a group of five people just starting a game of this:

Image

The last time these guys:

Image

... got what they wanted, this happened:

Image

At least three of the five of us would be included, and it seems a reasonable precaution to assume they'd throw the other two in as well due to the association.

Last time this flag:

Image

... was on the march, these stopped it:

Image

When I see this:

Image

I don't want to be Captain America and punch them all out one by one. I just want to see that someone did this, ideally without hitting any journalists.

Yes, my game nights are worth more to me than the lives of 500 wannabe Amon Goeths. If that's sociopathic, I'm a sociopath.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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sardia
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby sardia » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:53 pm UTC

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/sta ... 1789797381
Peoples lives are being shattered and destroyed by a mere allegation. Some are true and some are false. Some are old and some are new. There is no recovery for someone falsely accused - life and career are gone. Is there no such thing any longer as Due Process?

It's always weird when your opinion aligns with Trump. Maybe this is one of those "broken clock is right once a day" type thing.


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