Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

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CorruptUser
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:06 pm UTC

The "eggshells" thing is real enough when it comes to kids. A lot of men specifically avoid working with children to avoid the pedo-hunts.

I know, kids are not women, but comparisons are like frogs in that they often die when dissected.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby sardia » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:23 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Like, how would you feel if suddenly half of Congress was forced to retire? Because I'd be willing to bet money that at least half of Congress has engaged in serious sexual harassment.
:lol: An easy statement to make, a statement very difficult to prove.
because the whole "the sexual harassment police might come to get me" is a very, very silly fear.
Well you have never displayed knowledge of fact versus perception of fact.
Still, some workers said they were starting to follow “the Pence rule,” which was formerly known as the Billy Graham rule, after the evangelical preacher, but is now named for Vice President A Wet Rag Stuffed Into a Tailpipe. Mr. Pence has said he does not eat alone with women who are not his wife or attend an event without her if alcohol will be served.
The thing is that if you are one of the men who could theoretically be a target you start thinking of how to avoid being one. Reality has nothing to do with it. What they see are careers being destroyed. And that is what they fear. It isn't rational.

I'm not a fan of the pence/graham rule because it hurts women's career prospects. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/15/opin ... raham.html
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... rs/521286/
Men who unconditionally avoid all women just cut off all networking for the women in their lives. Imagine if your boss or coworkers refused to network with you. How would you ever get to know them or get them to vouch for you in a meaningful way.

Listening to women who say no and not retaliating is a start. Level two would be understanding the implied coercion a subordinate would be under. For example, harassment in the food industry is rampant because waitresses are dependent on tips... From their harassers.
I'm also not a fan of zero tolerance rules. Now you put women who want bad behavior to stop balancing their needs vs a guy's career. So she withdraws the complaint.

That literally happened at my work this year. Some floor peasant mistook an executive for a line worker, and started sexually harassing her. She refused to give him up because it would get him fired. So now we have at least one harasser roaming the building who hasn't been reprimanded or corrected.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:38 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Of course it is irrational. But it doesn't say anything about the underlying fear. Do you for one moment believe that because the object of the fear is irrational, that the fear is any less real? My sister will jump up on a table at the sight of a mouse. She outweighs it by a factors of hundreds if not thousands, yet the fear is real to her.
I once had to fend off someone trying to stab me to death on account of them believing I was *literally* a demon that existed to torture them.

Yes. I am fully aware that the fear is real. Yes. I am fully aware that it has consequences.
morriswalters wrote:The thing that you don't see when you look at someone like Matt Lauer is what he represents to a lot of men. Irregardless of the fact that he seems to be an asshole of somewhat epic proportions, is the amount of time he has invested in his career. For him this is a speed bump. He has sufficient wealth to ride this out. If he doesn't get sued out of his net worth, it's his ego that has taken the punch(deservedly so IMO). The average man has much more to lose in a real sense. And he fears losing it. Even if there is no rational chance of that happening. You address that through the use of empathy, you acknowledge the fear, while gently reminding him that the fear isn't real. Then the workplace catches up and gets some policies in place to deal with the changing mores.

Maybe you are saying something like this and I am unsuited to picking it out of your writing, if so my apologies.
These women are not your mother. They are under no obligation to wrap men up in fluffy blankets, give them mugs of hot cocoa, and tell them everything is going to be alright.

If the only way men can get over their shit and start acting like adults is for every woman to drop what they're doing and spend an hour each day softly reassuring them that no, they don't want to burn down the world -- they just want to not be sexually harassed, abused, and assaulted -- then you know what? Fuck it. Go ahead and burn it all down. You bring the matches, I'll bring the kerosene.

The notion that we can only achieve a healthy, abuse-free work-place if we spend every step of the way fawning over the insecurities of the men who control it is so repellent to me that I can scarcely put it into words.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Sableagle » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:46 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:So one case where you unilaterally decided your fear of harassment accusations outweighed helping someone and another case where someone has it out for you at work and that proves there's a general climate of eggshell walking?
Also notice how even the second story still just amounts to that one time they didn't get wrongly accused.
1) Not really, no. I do, however, believe that the eggshell effect exists, and that some people are put in situations where they feel or are outright told that they can't talk to women.

2) Hippo, you appear to be implying that I was rightly accused. Am I misreading you, or are you genuinely going with "guilty until proven innocent" here?

The Great Hippo wrote:Like, that whole incident sounds pretty sucky to have gone through -- but until I see some credible evidence of a widespread problem involving men getting falsely accused of sexual harassment, I'm going to keep presuming that the fear of false accusation is an irrational one.
.....

Usually an irrational one. More rational than fear of rabbits. Less rational than fear of dense bushes in cobra territory. Maybe about as rational as fear of cows.

I'm in favour of believing the people who come forward to say they've been sexually harassed. I'm (probably on the record somewhere as) against the backlash insta-mob saying accusers are only after money and attention and just hate men and are making it up to make themselves feel more attractive and that they hope Ched Evans rapes Jennifer Ennis and so on. That doesn't mean there's no such thing as a false accusation. It just means we shouldn't start by assuming an accusation is false.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby slinches » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:53 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:The notion that we can only achieve a healthy, abuse-free work-place if we spend every step of the way fawning over the insecurities of the men who control it is so repellent to me that I can scarcely put it into words.

If by "fawn over" you mean acknowledge and attempt to address their concerns, then yes I do think that would help create an abuse-free workplace. I don't hear anyone here asking for more than that.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:59 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:2) Hippo, you appear to be implying that I was rightly accused. Am I misreading you, or are you genuinely going with "guilty until proven innocent" here?
You weren't accused at all. Someone incidental to the situation told you that they *would* have accused you, had things gone slightly differently.
Sableagle wrote:That doesn't mean there's no such thing as a false accusation. It just means we shouldn't start by assuming an accusation is false.
Are you afraid of brain aneurysms? Does the existence of brain aneurysms dictate the course of your actions?

False accusations are brain aneurysms: Rare, almost impossible to predict, and usually pretty goddamn obvious when they happen.
slinches wrote:If by "fawn over" you mean acknowledge and attempt to address their concerns, then yes I do think that would help create an abuse-free workplace. I don't hear anyone here asking for more than that.
False accusations aren't a genuine concern. They're an irrational fear.

If the only way men will help stop sexual harassment is by women stopping to address every one of their irrational fears, then we're going to be here for a while.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:00 pm UTC

BTW, I hope that men who are worried about wrongful accusations see why it's important to oppose efforts to make abortions illegal except in cases of rape. It doesn't take a genius to see what effect that would have on rape claims, and how women who are indeed telling the truth about having been raped would have an even harder time being believed than they do now.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:03 pm UTC

Yeah, that was always my reaction to the "abortion in rape only" arguments. The only way to compromise on this is with enough "Or" in there that rape doesn't become the primary reason for abortion. Maybe allow for health or financial concerns, just to be on the safe side...
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Sableagle » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:06 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:I still recall the time a Warrant Officer told me someone who hadn't even been there had accused me of sexually harassing someone else because she'd have felt harassed if it had been her and that I was very lucky the person who'd called me an angel at the time had refused to make a complaint.

Refused. Seriously.

The Great Hippo wrote:You weren't accused at all. Someone incidental to the situation told you that they *would* have accused you, had things gone slightly differently.
Nope. Someone about as incidental to the situation as Elektra, Texas, is to the New Orleans levees told the authorities that I was guilty, and they took that person's word for it, then leaned on a woman to make a false complaint against me. Whoever it was didn't say anything to me.

I sure as heck felt accused. The WO in question made it pretty damn clear that he considered me to have been accused, tried and found guilty except for a minor technicality that should never have been allowed to interfere with the prosecution's case.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby slinches » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:11 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:If the only way men will help stop sexual harassment is by women stopping to address every one of their irrational fears, then we're going to be here for a while.

No one has said that we should stop trying to prevent sexual harassment. So all that statement says to me is "screw men, only women's feelings matter"

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:18 pm UTC

Not screw all men (or perhaps screw #notallmen), just the ones who think anything short of coddling their feelings and irrational fears is not sufficiently respectful to be listened to at all.

But in any case your comment doesn't make sense to begin with. There's an "if" in the quote that you seem to have missed, for one thing. IF the only way to get men on board with stopping harassment is to coddle them, then we'll be here awhile. If there are other ways (such as by not coddling them and instead expecting them to act like goddamned adults once in a while), then we can do those instead and it won't be so difficult.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby slinches » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:28 pm UTC

That "if" is bullshit though. It's implying that the people here bringing up the other side of things aren't already trying to do their part. From everything I've read, we are. So, outright dismissing our concerns as trivial and frivolous is only going to alienate people who are actually on your side.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby SDK » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:36 pm UTC

slinches, you obviously think your fear is rational, but is your fear based on anything concrete? Have you seen accusations leveled against people who act like you do? I personally can come up with plenty of situations where a coworker, or a student I teach, or any random person on the street might accuse me of sexual assault. Are any of them likely based on how I actually act day-to-day? Not really, no. I have that fear too, but I recognize it as being irrational, kind of like that time my brain was trying its hardest to convince me that a cougar was stalking me when I was working the nightshift at a coal mine.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:40 pm UTC

From personal experience, a false rape claim is the result of judgement-clouding revenge rather than anything accidental. Any Gone Girl scenarios are probably as common as the office scene in Fight Club. So Slinches, as long as you aren't doing anything to piss off any women, you should be fine.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby slinches » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:44 pm UTC

The combination of huge consequences and not having a clear definition of where the line is will make more conservative personalities stay as far from that line as possible to avoid the risk, even if the likelihood is low. Is that irrational? Maybe, maybe not. I really don't know. Either way, whether it's rational doesn't matter. It's a real effect that will likely produce negative unintended consequences if we don't address it.

ETA: I say the effect is real because it's what I'm hearing from sources as varied as friends and family to local radio personalities.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby sardia » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:55 pm UTC

slinches wrote:The combination of huge consequences and not having a clear definition of where the line is will make more conservative personalities stay as far from that line as possible to avoid the risk, even if the likelihood is low. Is that irrational? Maybe, maybe not. I really don't know. Either way, whether it's rational doesn't matter. It's a real effect that will likely produce negative unintended consequences if we don't address it.

Yea, there are going to be negative responses to sexual harassment issue, except conservatives are already doing it. Earlier I posted about how conservative men are cutting off networking opportunities with women.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/12 ... even-worse
Wapo is terrifying Congress with 20 to 40 sexual harassment stories in the pipeline.

As for people who can't tell social cues as to when they are being a creep, try not to chat up service workers. No maids, waitresses, subcontractors, secretaries, etc etc.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby SDK » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:55 pm UTC

slinches wrote:It's a real effect that will likely produce negative unintended consequences if we don't address it.

Sure, absolutely. Can I try to address it by helping those people to understand that it is irrational? You say that "whether it's rational doesn't matter", but I strongly disagree. If it's a rational fear, we need to actually deal with that problem. If it's an irrational fear, we need to deal with the person.

I mean, you cite "huge consequences", but when have you ever seen someone punished based on nothing but one accusation? It's either a multitude of accusations or there's a bunch of other evidence. So I'll again default to the "don't do it and you'll be fine" mantra.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:05 pm UTC

This article sums up the anxiety on the part of a lot of basically-decent men, who now wonder if some interaction that they thought was innocuous may have crossed a line.

“What I see in terms of my male friends now is an, ‘Oh, my gosh, I hope I didn’t.’ There’s a sense of shame,” says independent filmmaker Laura Lee Bahr.

She says she has been reassuring male friends that giving her a friendly hug when they greet her isn’t harassment. It’s the flat-out propositions and the unwanted grabbing of body parts that need to stop, she says.

“So for me, I wish it was the people who really need to take a look at themselves who would take a look at themselves,” she adds.

Amen to that last bit.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby slinches » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:12 pm UTC

I've never personally witnessed an incident where one accusation ended up with the accused being summarily fired. But I have seen and heard second hand accounts of several people who were accused and even one accusation invariably ends up hurting their career. Some people in the office will always remember them as "that guy who harassed Susan" and the only way to lose that reputation is to leave. So, it doesn't seem so irrational to me. Again, not likely, but when it comes to potentially losing your livelihood is it irrational to protect yourself from that risk?

ETA: Obsessomom, that article does give a good explanation of the phenomenon. Although, the reassurance seems a bit hollow when the example noted in the article itself falls far short of "flat-out propositions and ... unwanted grabbing".

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Zohar » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:23 pm UTC

slinches wrote:Again, not likely, but when it comes to potentially losing your livelihood is it irrational to protect yourself from that risk?

Similar to buying "meteor shower insurance" or something. It is such a minuscule problem, it's the least important of sexual harassment issues you should focus on.

Talk about how a quarter of women, an eighth of men, and half of LGBTQ people in college are sexually assaulted. Talk about how the lack of sexual education makes any conversation on informed consent almost meaningless since people have no idea WTF sex is, how it works, and that they even have the option of consenting or not.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:31 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:Nope. Someone about as incidental to the situation as Elektra, Texas, is to the New Orleans levees told the authorities that I was guilty, and they took that person's word for it, then leaned on a woman to make a false complaint against me. Whoever it was didn't say anything to me.
Someone incidental to the actual event (as in, someone who was just watching) tried to get a sexual harassment complaint lodged against you. They failed, because you apparently acted like a responsible person.

That's the story you've told. What can I take away from that? "When you behave like a responsible adult, it makes it that much harder for frivolous sexual harassment complaints to even happen."
Sableeagle wrote:I sure as heck felt accused. The WO in question made it pretty damn clear that he considered me to have been accused, tried and found guilty except for a minor technicality that should never have been allowed to interfere with the prosecution's case.
I recognize that's a shitty thing to go through, but the fact that you weren't formally accused -- that they couldn't even get a complaint lodged against you -- is telling.

Like, can you genuinely provide me with any case where someone was forced to face down a formal charge of sexual harassment that was false? I can think of only one case in my experience, and -- again -- its frivolity was so transparently obvious that it was downright laughable.
slinches wrote:I've never personally witnessed an incident where one accusation ended up with the accused being summarily fired. But I have seen and heard second hand accounts of several people who were accused and even one accusation invariably ends up hurting their career. Some people in the office will always remember them as "that guy who harassed Susan" and the only way to lose that reputation is to leave. So, it doesn't seem so irrational to me. Again, not likely, but when it comes to potentially losing your livelihood is it irrational to protect yourself from that risk?
Everyone knows a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who's career was ruined by false accusations of sexual harassment.

Nobody just knows a guy. And nobody is that guy.

I call bullshit. I'm sure it happens -- just as I am sure that people experience brain aneurysms. And just as my heart goes out to anyone who's had a brain aneurysm, my heart also goes out to people who have had false accusations ruin their lives. But until I see some actual evidence that this is a widespread problem, all I hear is a bunch of men whining like babies because women won't coddle them every step of the way.

Being an adult means not letting things like your irrational fear of brain aneurysms or false harassment accusations dictate the terms of your behavior.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby slinches » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:03 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
slinches wrote:Again, not likely, but when it comes to potentially losing your livelihood is it irrational to protect yourself from that risk?

Similar to buying "meteor shower insurance" or something. It is such a minuscule problem, it's the least important of sexual harassment issues you should focus on.

Talk about how a quarter of women, an eighth of men, and half of LGBTQ people in college are sexually assaulted. Talk about how the lack of sexual education makes any conversation on informed consent almost meaningless since people have no idea WTF sex is, how it works, and that they even have the option of consenting or not.

For one, it's probably more akin to buying insurance on your house that covers electrical fires. They aren't super common, but happens enough that insurance isn't necessarily a bad idea. Certainly happens at a higher rate than people being hit by meteorites.

And why is it that talking about what people should do to safely avoid harassment while still engaging with people on both personal and professional levels seen as taking away from the progress made on preventing harassment/assaults? To me it sounds like those topics are a good way to approach the conversation for the majority who haven't harassed or been harassed by anyone. That conversation will likely end up covering many of the topics around sexual consent that we need to be educated on, anyway.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:03 pm UTC

It seems kinda tangential to the actual topic of this thread, but I've been wanting to share a few anecdotes of things in my life that have left me with a very "eggshell" feeling, to the point that when I started dating my current girlfriend (of close to six years now), she thought that I was way too withdrawn, asking verbal permission to put my hand on her shoulder while on our second date, or to kiss her at the end of it. I was basically afraid to touch her at all unless she initiated it, and she is very shy and was waiting for me to initiate things, and it took a while into the relationship for her to get me to believe it was actually okay to just hug or kiss or gently touch her, that she wanted that, and that it was even okay to be overtly sexual toward her, that she actually wanted that.

I guess since I started at the end there, I'll go in reverse chronological order:

My previous relationship of about a year, all of which was extremely "eggshelly", ended after a party where we and her friends played a game wherein one person draws an image, the next person writes a description of that image, the next person draws that description, and so on, and the fun comes from the humor of how the images and descriptions get morphed over time. I got passed an image of what looked like a muscular man with bull horns on his head holding something oblong near his groin -- a very rushed sketch, but that was the first impression of it and speed is a part of the game -- which I described as a "masturbating minotaur". I failed to think through that the next person in line would be tasked with drawing that as described. She (girlfriend's fried, who was next in line) was apparently mortified that I would do that, and that ended the game, and that relationship. A dumb mistake from lack of thinking ahead, interpreted as gross creeper behavior.

That whole relationship started on very shaky ground. We met online, and her profile description was unclear/contradictory about whether she lived in the same town as me, or a two-hour drive away. I asked about that to clarify, because I was looking to date someone locally, and she took the very question to be "stalkery". She thought she saw someone who looked like me on the campus of a local school (one that I had attended and might have had every reason to be at, but wasn't), and messaged me emphatically insisting that I not try to approach her in public. I just wanted to know if she was someone it might eventually be plausuble to go out on actual dates and have a real in-person relationship with, and she jumps to "creep wants to know where I live and is following me around town".

The worst incident, many years before that, is one that's too traumatizing to describe in detail, but the short version is a woman pressured me into sex I wasn't comfortable with, a situation that seems like it would very likely have been called "rape" (of me by her) by some if the genders had been reversed, but I'm not comfortable describing it that way myself. In the midst of it, trying to get more into it and spin it into a positive experience somehow, I scratched my nails down her back (not something I'd normally do), because she seemed like the kind of person who was into rough sex stuff like that. She immediately went into a PTSD like state, curled up in a ball and said to do "whatever I want" to her. I was mortified and didn't know what the fuck was happening. I took her home. She wouldn't return followup calls. Some time later a friend of hers called me to chew me out, as apparently she had been raped in the past and the incident had sent her into flashbacks from that. Months later she invited me to her going-away party at a club, flirted with me very transparently (direct quote: "...and I haven't even gone down on you yet") the whole way there, then proceeded to loudly badmouth my sexual performance to anyone who would listen, and then tried to ditch me there after I yelled at her about that. The whole ordeal left me feeling like a monster who should never be allowed near a woman again (and that was the start of my self-harm behavior that persists to this day).

A few years before that, I had a short relationship with a girl from school (community college), a few weeks of frequent dates, some of which became sexual, but never PIV, always either something she had to actively participate in, or something for her pleasure and not mine. She dumped me, but I didn't get the impression that it was over anything specific, more just that she wasn't that into me or not looking to date right then anyway. Years later, I found out that her circle of friends had heard some kind of awful stories about me from her, and they thought I was some monster or creeper. It seems like she felt pressured to do the sexual things we did, especially by me asking her to reciprocate after I had offered to do things to her and she had accepted them. She never straight up said "no" (and I'd have respected that immediately if she had), and I never had any idea that she felt hesitant through any nonverbal cues, and the whole revelation that she was uncomfortable with it and that I had no idea the whole time has thrown me into questioning every sexual encounter I've ever had.

So yeah. Eggshells. Anecdotes. I don't know what my point is here.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:19 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:So yeah. Eggshells. Anecdotes. I don't know what my point is here.
I mean, that all sounds legitimately horrible, and I'm sorry you've had to go through all of it -- if it helps, one thing I've come to realize is that consent goes both ways. We have a responsibility to make sure it's been given and to make sure we're clear about when we've given it. No side gets to 'opt out' of either responsibility.

All you can do is trust people when they tell you that it's okay. If you find out later that they lied, that can be an agonizing experience -- for them (obviously), but also for you. I can certainly understand how something like that would leave one with the desire to 'walk on eggshells'.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:25 pm UTC

@pforrest

Your point is that people are complicated and that even doing things "right" can still be confusing as hell?

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby idonno » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:27 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
idonno wrote:What makes you think I'm not relaxed. I'm not even really personally concerned.
Okay; but if that's so, why are you bringing this up?

I didn't. Someone else said they felt like they had to walk on eggshells. I just care about other people and happen to care about someone who has substantially worse social interaction skills than I do (which is saying a lot). If they were to tell me they struggled with something, it would be insulting for me to tell them it was easy.
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idonno wrote:Exactly how is giving a shit about something while possessing inadequate capabilities to gauge it going to help?
When a thing concerns you, your behavior adapts to account for that thing. That's how self-education works. If you give a shit about it, you'll develop capabilities to gauge it. This can (and often does) happen without you even realizing it.
Maybe, assuming you can. People aren't all wired the same way.

The Great Hippo wrote:I mean, what do you want? "Don't tell me not to walk on eggshells" -- what else do you tell someone who's walking on concrete? At least as far as sexual harassment goes. I mean, I don't know what your deal is in general, but -- if you're a man who actually gives a shit about the comfort of women around him? You'll be fine. That already puts you way ahead of the curve.

Concrete for one person is not necessarily concrete for another. You don't know how hard someone else is working to navigate social situations and telling someone they don't have to work that hard just because you don't is insulting.

The Great Hippo wrote:
idonno wrote:This isn't about getting advice. It is about people trying to tell others that struggle with situations that it isn't a big deal. It isn't helpful and it is condescending as hell. Different people struggle in different situations and in different ways. This isn't an argument for or against any change. Just when someone says something like "I have to walk on eggshells" don't just go off explaining to them how they are wrong and they don't really have to do that. They may be facing issues you aren't. If you feel you have experience that might be helpful, instead of telling someone how things are for them, you should just share it as what has helped you.
So you just want to use this space to talk about how you have to walk on eggshells (although you're not actually concerned about having to walk on eggshells), and you don't want anyone to tell you that maybe the eggshells aren't eggshells?

I mean, yeah, maybe I'm being a little condescending -- because the whole "the sexual harassment police might come to get me" is a very, very silly fear. It's one I can understand, but it's based on the fear that comes with a perceived loss of privilege (which actually hasn't even been lost at all). You're seeing a tiny fraction of people finally get shit over something that's been going on forever, and you're nervous because you think they might go just a little too far. Meanwhile, I'm over here thinking "Wow, twenty or so public cases... So what about the millions upon millions of cases that aren't ever made public?"

Because if THIS bothers you, I can't imagine how you'd feel if we all *actually* started taking sexual harassment seriously. Like, how would you feel if suddenly half of Congress was forced to retire? Because I'd be willing to bet money that at least half of Congress has engaged in serious sexual harassment.


My stance is that you shouldn't just tell people how hard something should be for them. This involves only a change in how you treat other people and nothing about accountability for actions committed. I have no interest in getting bogged down in why your criticism is absurd but I assure you, the only thing taking joy away from watching these people fall is reading some accounts from victims that hit to close to home. I had great trouble formulating this paragraph in a manner I was comfortable with and almost simply walked away. I have no intention of addressing any such strawmen against my position any further.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby slinches » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:46 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Being an adult means not letting things like your irrational fear of brain aneurysms or false harassment accusations dictate the terms of your behavior.

Do you have health insurance? Yes? Then you have adjusted your behavior and therefore must have an irrational fear of brain aneurysms. :roll:


Seriously, how hard is it to acknowledge that someone else has a valid point that doesn't echo your own or even just not respond to that line of conversation? I'm not asking you to discuss it yourself, only not to belittle others for trying.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby morriswalters » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:01 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I once had to fend off someone trying to stab me to death on account of them believing I was *literally* a demon that existed to torture them.
Sorry about your luck, my father attempted to stab me. Aren't we special?
The Great Hippo wrote:These women are not your mother. They are under no obligation to wrap men up in fluffy blankets, give them mugs of hot cocoa, and tell them everything is going to be alright.
I don't talk for women. I listen to women. I talk to other men. To get them to listen to me(other men, keep up) I try to empathize. What I don't do is to jerk them off and tell them to get over it. It seems to make them quit listening.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:02 pm UTC

idonno wrote:My stance is that you shouldn't just tell people how hard something should be for them. This involves only a change in how you treat other people and nothing about accountability for actions committed. I have no interest in getting bogged down in why your criticism is absurd but I assure you, the only thing taking joy away from watching these people fall is reading some accounts from victims that hit to close to home. I had great trouble formulating this paragraph in a manner I was comfortable with and almost simply walked away. I have no intention of addressing any such strawmen against my position any further.
To be fair, I think I might have grossly misunderstood what your initial point was -- and if that's the case, I apologize.

I wholly acknowledge that it's a struggle to understand how to behave responsibly. It's agonizing, hard, excruciating work, and I don't have a shred of bitterness in my heart toward anyone who has to struggle with it. If you're worried that you might accidentally hurt someone, then -- as far as I'm concerned -- we're on the same side. But if you're concerned that someone will falsely accuse you of sexual harassment over a misunderstanding -- leading to the loss of your career, reputation, and prestige? I think you're beholden to an irrational fear. I'd like you to put aside that irrational fear, because it's that fear that's getting in the way of stopping things like sexual abuse.

I have enormous sympathy for anyone who's struggling with eggshells because they're worried about accidentally hurting someone. I have no sympathy with someone who's struggling with eggshells because they're worried they'll get in trouble if they don't.
slinches wrote:Do you have health insurance? Yes? Then you have adjusted your behavior and therefore must have an irrational fear of brain aneurysms. :roll:
Yes. I have health insurance, because -- at some point -- I will almost certainly get sick.

I do not have brain aneurysm insurance. Do you understand the difference?
slinches wrote:Seriously, how hard is it to acknowledge that someone else has a valid point that doesn't echo your own or even just not respond to that line of conversation? I'm not asking you to discuss it yourself, only not to belittle others for trying.
Did you miss my prior post? The one where I did precisely that?
morriswalters wrote:Sorry about your luck, my father attempted to stab me. Aren't we special?
I'm genuinely sorry you experienced that -- but the reason I brought it up was because you were being a condescending prick. Yes, I know how people behave when they're afraid.
Last edited by The Great Hippo on Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:10 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Zohar » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:09 pm UTC

slinches wrote:Seriously, how hard is it to acknowledge that someone else has a valid point that doesn't echo your own or even just not respond to that line of conversation? I'm not asking you to discuss it yourself, only not to belittle others for trying.

Yes, false rape accusations are terrible. But continuously arguing about it as if it's a widespread epidemic on the same scale as sexual assault is similar to Save The Whales adding a secondary mission to prevent portrayals of whales as vicious predators in children's TV. Or arguing "Wait wait, not all men" or "All lives matter!"
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby sardia » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:13 pm UTC

slinches wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Being an adult means not letting things like your irrational fear of brain aneurysms or false harassment accusations dictate the terms of your behavior.

Do you have health insurance? Yes? Then you have adjusted your behavior and therefore must have an irrational fear of brain aneurysms. :roll:


Seriously, how hard is it to acknowledge that someone else has a valid point that doesn't echo your own or even just not respond to that line of conversation? I'm not asking you to discuss it yourself, only not to belittle others for trying.

Given the wave roiling America right now, how bad would it be just to wait for this to blow over? Like after the 40th accusation in Congress, can the public sustain the outrage? A world where accusations are taken seriously is very different and possible. I consider it potentially as part of a new normal, like decreased social security, and low wage growth.
What exactly are you hoping will happen?

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:31 pm UTC

Hey even in my false rape accusation, the amount of damage done was, I assume, an order of magnitude less than an actual rape. High school and life had far more emotionally draining events than that.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby morriswalters » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:55 pm UTC

sardia wrote:A world where accusations are taken seriously is very different and possible. I consider it potentially as part of a new normal, like decreased social security, and low wage growth.
It will be the new normal when women hold enough positions of authority to make it happen and not before. The public has the attention span of a 4 year old.

None of the men accused to this point face any jail time, except possibly Harvey. It looks like Cosby will run out the clock and die first. Everyone else will retire and write a book. Some will be rehabilitated. Not hopeful. If you want change, some type of non profit with sufficient funding to start suing on behalf of women who are ready to fight. That might keep it at the forefront. Take select cases and make new law. That takes deep pockets. And it is a concept being used by social conservatives.

The other possibility is that social conservatives change the defamation law and make it much more difficult to go public without being sued. The BBC wrote a piece on why we don't see this as much there.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby slinches » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:47 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Given the wave roiling America right now, how bad would it be just to wait for this to blow over? Like after the 40th accusation in Congress, can the public sustain the outrage? A world where accusations are taken seriously is very different and possible. I consider it potentially as part of a new normal, like decreased social security, and low wage growth.
What exactly are you hoping will happen?

I don't want to wait for it to blow over and go back to normal. I want things to change for the better, for everyone.

On top of taking accusations of misbehavior seriously, I'm hoping that we can establish some new behavioral norms and roles that will act as a guide of how to behave in social situations. Specifically ones that don't encourage people to harass others. We've apparently done a good job of rejecting the old ones, but there's nothing to take their place that serves the same function. What sort of behavior should we aspire to? It's likely that our preferences aren't all identical, so that will need to take the form of more than one social role. What should those roles look like? How do they interact? And what should we look for in others that indicates they choose compatible roles?

Now seems like a good opportunity to do this intelligently rather than just let it happen as it will.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Thesh » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:31 am UTC

Well, The New York Times has called it for Jones. Apparently the AP too, although I can only find second-hand sources.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby gd1 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:36 am UTC

Thesh wrote:Well, The New York Times has called it for Jones. Apparently the AP too, although I can only find second-hand sources.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/democrat-doug-jones-beats-roy-moore-claim-deep-red-alabama-senate-seat-032527507.html
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/12/alabama-senate-election-doug-jones-defeats-roy-moore-fox-news-projects.html
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2017-election/AL

I trolled again:
"Quickly! We need to institute martial law and curfews. Call the national guard and fema to confiscate all the guns. Then institute mandatory re-education of all conservatives to ensure that Alabama remains Democrat. Get BLM and Antifa to help. Hold the re-education procedures in tax funded safe spaces. Remove the gender restrictions on boyscouts and girlscouts. Teach share classes in schools that have gender inclusiveness and make them mandatory from Kindergarten up. Lastly, we need an immediate gay pride parade!"

I don't know why I have the urge to just let the posters have it on yahoo, but I did.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:09 am UTC

Thesh wrote:Well, The New York Times has called it for Jones. Apparently the AP too, although I can only find second-hand sources.
I don't know whether to be relieved, happy, or just indifferent.

"Thanks, Alabama. I'm glad you managed to not elect the guy who sexually abuses children."

I guess I'll settle for relieved.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Thesh » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:13 am UTC

I'm going with surprised and upbeat. Upbeat because this was also due to Trump being a disease that causes loserness.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:15 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
"Thanks, Alabama. I'm glad you managed to just barely not elect the guy who sexually abuses children."
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:34 am UTC

Hey, progress it progress. Don't mock them, it just sets them back. Remember that during the Emmet Till case, most of Alabama was horrified... until everyone else started mocking Alabama (which it definitely earned), turning it into a nationalistic issue and suddenly the murderers were state heroes that could have done no wrong.


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