Trump presidency

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natraj
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:39 pm UTC

all the things zohar listed do actual harm to the people involved including leading to their deaths. the one you listed doesn't.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:53 pm UTC

Just because it causes indirect harm, or even direct harm, does not mean it's violence.

Not paying your taxes causes indirect harm, including leading to the deaths of others due to insufficient funds for basic services, but tax evasion isn't violence.
Building a substandard home with cheap imported Chinese drywall that's filled with mold causes more direct harm, but again, it's not violence.
Double parking your car causes harm in the form of blocked traffic, potentially blocking an ambulance or fire truck, but it's generally not considered violence.
Boycotting segregated buses causes harm to the bus company, but are you really going to argue that MLK was actually advocating violence?

Ever hear of the category of crimes called "violent crimes"? Most crimes aren't violent, even though crimes universally cause harm. Ostensibly.



Are the arguments in favor of minimizing injustice so weak that they won't stand on their own without redefining words?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:11 pm UTC

All the examples you listed might cause harm as a consequence of the action, but are not the explicit goal of those actions. If I drop a hammer and it happens to hit someone, that's negligence on my part, but not violence. If I throw it at someone purposefully, that's violence. The examples I provided are policies that are aimed specifically at harming people.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:15 pm UTC

So every boycott is now violence?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:18 pm UTC

A boycott's purpose is to protest, and the harm it does (if any) is directed at a corporation. Corporations aren't people, and this is a stupid argument.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:20 pm UTC

iamspen wrote:You're clearly ignoring the roving bands of pantsuit-clad thugs randomly attacking innocent white nationalists in cities across the country.


You're ignoring the bands of masked Antifa thugs who were showing up at political rallies and college campuses, in most cases to prevent someone they didn't agree with from speaking. Attacking random people, often with bricks, bottles, or clubs; destroying property, looting businesses, and starting fires... Violence is violence no matter what the political affiliation.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:25 pm UTC

i love how people keep sanitizing "nazis who want to ethnically cleanse the country and commit genocide" as "people they disagree with" to make it seem like these are two equivalent kinds of things.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:26 pm UTC

For context, that was in response to:

Thesh wrote:Yeah, if you just ignore that the white supremacists are actually killing people, then they are on equal footing.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:38 pm UTC

One of my family's proudest moments was when my great-grandpa punched Father Coughlin in the face. Coughlin was a neo-Nazi, but before the Nazis themselves were really a major thing. So that's what, a paleo-Nazi? Point is, if my great grandpa was right to punch a paleo-Nazi in the face, I'm not going to say it isn't right for someone today to punch neo-Nazis. Punch away!

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:13 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
iamspen wrote:You're clearly ignoring the roving bands of pantsuit-clad thugs randomly attacking innocent white nationalists in cities across the country.


You're ignoring the bands of masked Antifa thugs who were showing up at political rallies and college campuses, in most cases to prevent someone they didn't agree with from speaking. Attacking random people, often with bricks, bottles, or clubs; destroying property, looting businesses, and starting fires... Violence is violence no matter what the political affiliation.

Please, explain to me how punching someone who advocates for the systematic execution of groups based on arbitrary heredity categories, sexual orientation or sexual identity is wrong.

Feel free to use small words in case you think I don’t understand.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:20 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
cphite wrote:
iamspen wrote:You're clearly ignoring the roving bands of pantsuit-clad thugs randomly attacking innocent white nationalists in cities across the country.


You're ignoring the bands of masked Antifa thugs who were showing up at political rallies and college campuses, in most cases to prevent someone they didn't agree with from speaking. Attacking random people, often with bricks, bottles, or clubs; destroying property, looting businesses, and starting fires... Violence is violence no matter what the political affiliation.

Please, explain to me how punching someone who advocates for the systematic execution of groups based on arbitrary heredity categories, sexual orientation or sexual identity is wrong.

Feel free to use small words in case you think I don’t understand.


Because you risk punching an undercover FBI agent?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:24 pm UTC

Undercover, or just on their day off?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:32 pm UTC

No, undercover. Unless you think the FBI and police shouldn't be infiltrating hate groups.

It gets weird when cops infiltrate a hate group, or any group for that matter. Aside from being the few members that pay their dues on time and can spell, cops tend to be a bit impatient for obvious reasons, and are often the ones advocating suggesting violence in order to get the group to do something illegal so they can arrest the people. A lot of these groups only exist as honey traps in the first place, being nothing more than a way to catch potential mass murderers before they can join an actual group. For instance, whenever the FBI announces it caught a potential bomber, it's always of the form where the bomber agreed to purchase explosives or weapons from the agent (or informant), and the FBI swoops in during the deal.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:37 pm UTC

The Man Who Was Thursday…

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby eran_rathan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:41 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:
cphite wrote:
iamspen wrote:You're clearly ignoring the roving bands of pantsuit-clad thugs randomly attacking innocent white nationalists in cities across the country.


You're ignoring the bands of masked Antifa thugs who were showing up at political rallies and college campuses, in most cases to prevent someone they didn't agree with from speaking. Attacking random people, often with bricks, bottles, or clubs; destroying property, looting businesses, and starting fires... Violence is violence no matter what the political affiliation.

Please, explain to me how punching someone who advocates for the systematic execution of groups based on arbitrary heredity categories, sexual orientation or sexual identity is wrong.

Feel free to use small words in case you think I don’t understand.


Because you risk punching an undercover FBI agent?


Yep, pretty sure I'm ok with that risk.

there's about 35,000 FBI agents, and if one assumes that 1 in 10 is an asshole, and 1 in 100 of those is a Nazi or sympathizer, then one can assume of the 61% of the US population who is white, 326 million*61%*1/1000 ≈ 198,860 white supremacists in the US. Give that the number of FBI agents includes a great number of analysts, janitors, etc; the odds are good that you're punching an actual Nazi or sympathizer.

(the 1/1000 number is purely out of my backside, as I can't be arsed to find the actual numbers).
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:54 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:No, undercover. Unless you think the FBI and police shouldn't be infiltrating hate groups.

It would appear that

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:05 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
cphite wrote:
iamspen wrote:You're clearly ignoring the roving bands of pantsuit-clad thugs randomly attacking innocent white nationalists in cities across the country.


You're ignoring the bands of masked Antifa thugs who were showing up at political rallies and college campuses, in most cases to prevent someone they didn't agree with from speaking. Attacking random people, often with bricks, bottles, or clubs; destroying property, looting businesses, and starting fires... Violence is violence no matter what the political affiliation.

Please, explain to me how punching someone who advocates for the systematic execution of groups based on arbitrary heredity categories, sexual orientation or sexual identity is wrong.

Feel free to use small words in case you think I don’t understand.


Those who seek to hunt monsters should take care not to become monsters themselves.

On one hand I'm all for punching Nazis (neo, palaeo, or whatever) in the face. Threatening/planning/encouraging mass murder certainly rises to being worse than a few bloody noses.

On the practical side images of punching Nazis is just what they need for their propaganda, it helps them reinforce the "whataboutism" that they're not the only ones being violent. As much as Nazis deserve the bloody nose(s) I'm loathe to enable their "white-persecution' fantasies/delusions by actually providing real-world actions that reinforce those fantasies.

Destroying property, looting business and starting fires... I find these more problematic than punching Nazis in the face if only because things like starting fires has a tendency to spread to unintended targets. Targeting things like storefronts is problematic even if the storefront is "Nazi's R' Us" because that kind of thing generally gets out of hand turning in to a more conventional riot where neighboring businesses that have nothing to do with the intended target suffer consequences that they do not themselves deserve. This not only feeds the Nazi propaganda, but it does harm to people, families, employees etc. that have nothing to do with the actual offensive behavior.

Rallies to protest speaking engagements by Nazis, I'm all for. Preventing them from speaking I find problematic. As much as I'd rather they not promulgate their ideas in a public setting, they're going to gather adherents by more subtle private conversations, especially where they can specifically target people who may feel the need for a scapegoat for the ills in their own life. A big public conversation will present their ideas in a venue where more skilled and knowledgeable orators can take the Nazi position apart, where small private conversations don't have the presentation of that counterpoint.

I also find preventing a group from speaking to be problematic as a general concept. I'd rather see ideas rise or fall on their merits, not because a majority can silence dissent, even if the majority is in the one who is correct.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:13 pm UTC

i mean liberals keep saying that but the actual nazis in question have been crying about how they don't want to speak anymore because they are scared, it's not fun poke they hoped, several of their organizations have been splintering, they keep canceling their speaking engagements and tours, etc, so i kind of question whose cause you're actually helping by continuing to champion the idea that punching the nazis really actually helps the nazis.

also as someone who the nazis want to murder you can choke on the idea that nazism should rise or fall on its own merits did you actually type that, read it, and hit enter wow. no matter how persuasively its argued or how many people they convince they should be no-platformed and stamped out not allowed to see if maybe actually genocide has some merit in the end.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:18 pm UTC

So it turns out an organization whose explicit message was that it could make a subset of people powerful loses membership when it's explicitly proven via facepunching that joining said organization won't make your powerful?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:56 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
cphite wrote:
iamspen wrote:You're clearly ignoring the roving bands of pantsuit-clad thugs randomly attacking innocent white nationalists in cities across the country.


You're ignoring the bands of masked Antifa thugs who were showing up at political rallies and college campuses, in most cases to prevent someone they didn't agree with from speaking. Attacking random people, often with bricks, bottles, or clubs; destroying property, looting businesses, and starting fires... Violence is violence no matter what the political affiliation.


Please, explain to me how punching someone who advocates for the systematic execution of groups based on arbitrary heredity categories, sexual orientation or sexual identity is wrong.


First off, we aren't just talking about punching people here. We're talking about assaulting people with potentially deadly weapons, smashing windows, looting businesses, and oftentimes burning them to the ground.

And the targets of these attacks aren't all Nazis, or even supporters of Nazis. Most of them are just people who happened to be there. Some because they're curious about whatever event is taking place; others simply because they live where the event is taking place. And the businesses being robbed and burned aren't typically Nazi businesses, nor are they necessarily owned by Nazis or people who support Nazis; they're just random businesses that happen to be located there.

So the real question is: How is randomly attacking people, robbing people, and burning their livelihoods to the ground - even if they have nothing to do with your grievance - not wrong?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:09 pm UTC

No one in this thread supports the violence committed by antifa against innocent people. Like no one here dons a ski mask and smashes businesses. I believe we have had this discussion before!

Dauric wrote:I also find preventing a group from speaking to be problematic as a general concept. I'd rather see ideas rise or fall on their merits, not because a majority can silence dissent, even if the majority is in the one who is correct.
this is unacceptable.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:45 pm UTC

You find it unacceptable that the majority can suppress a group that advocates for crimes against humanity, or unacceptable that a group advocating crimes against humanity even gets a platform at all?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:56 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:I also find preventing a group from speaking to be problematic as a general concept. I'd rather see ideas rise or fall on their merits, not because a majority can silence dissent, even if the majority is in the one who is correct.

Have you heard of the potluck analogy? At least I think that’s what it’s called.

Point is that it equates the free flow of ideas with a potluck dinner, where everyone brings something.

Now, someone brings mashed potatoes. It’s fine, if bland and boring, but it’s also popular so who cares. Someone brings a curry and maybe it’s a little wild for some people, but it’s fine. Someone maybe brings a savory gelatin dish - chunks of meat floating in fish flavored jello or whatever. It’s a “what the fuck” for most people but someone’s gonna try it. And you know that while whoever brought it does eat it at home, they mostly did it just to freak out the squares.

And then fucking Chad puts a plate of dogshit on the buffet table.

You don’t ask Chad why he thinks literal dogshit belongs with food. You don’t wait for an adventurous person to try it. You get it the fuck off the table and out of the room, in the trash. And you kick Chad the fuck out.

Nazi Ideology is dogshit, if you need that spelled out. Racial superiority is dogshit. Thinking everyone would get along better with sexualized Master/slave based pony play is the fish jello, if you need another baseline.

So no, racial superiority, eugenics, systematic genocide - those don’t get a place at the free-for-all discussion table. They get kicked out.

And nothing of value is lost.


Oh, CorruptUser - to spell it out clearer - the problem isn’t that law enforcement may run in to problems when infiltrating hate groups if Antifa or whoever harasses them. Because it’s the other way around.

Hate groups have been infiltrating law enforcement for decades.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:03 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:You find it unacceptable that the majority can suppress a group that advocates for crimes against humanity, or unacceptable that a group advocating crimes against humanity even gets a platform at all?
the latter, obviously. Do i sound like a centrist to you.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:08 pm UTC

@ST

Eugenics is a bit weird in that list. While the overwhelming majority of eugenicists are smegma-encrusted frenelums (don't google), there do exist some extremely rare non-racist eugenicists and left-wing eugenicists who believe that it's possible to improve humanity as a whole through genetic engineering of some form. In terms of the potluck, they would be the fugu sashimi.

@Weeks

Then I think we disagree. Sometimes, there is a legitimate reason to no-platform someone. Like ST said, you don't let someone bring dogshit to dinner, especially when that person has a history of inserting that dogshit into other people's food.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:26 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:@Weeks

Then I think we disagree. Sometimes, there is a legitimate reason to no-platform someone. Like ST said, you don't let someone bring dogshit to dinner, especially when that person has a history of inserting that dogshit into other people's food.
what? You asked if i thought it was unacceptable that a hate group even had a platform and I said yes. Dauric is the one you should say that to
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:28 pm UTC

For the most part, I agree with the potluck analogy, and I think Chad is a dick, but I think it's important to understand the difference between bringing dogshit to a potluck and bringing something so distasteful everyone but you considers it dogshit.

In either case, Chad knows better, and everyone else would have been better off if Chad just never showed up at all, but if Chad truly believes his dish is food, kicking him out really only amounts to bullying, albeit justified in the sense that he knew he was disrupting what would have been a nice dinner without his contribution.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:35 pm UTC

are you really talking about bullying nazis
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:40 pm UTC

Lutefisk is disgusting smelling, but other than ruining everyone else's dinner from the smell alone it doesn't seriously harm the others. Public nudity is like lutefisk, assuming they aren't sitting directly on public transportation or other unhygenic things, but other than being mildly offensive to the senses it doesn't harm you.

Chad isn't bringing lutefisk. Chad is at a party where everyone else is deathly allergic to nuts, and actively telling everyone else there to try his pecan pie, claiming it's nut-free. Oh he says "ha ha it's just a joke", but it's clear he's trying to actively harm everyone else. You do not invite people like that over. When one of the other guests punches Chad in the face for this, you don't side with Chad.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:49 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:there's about 35,000 FBI agents, and if one assumes that 1 in 10 is an asshole, and 1 in 100 of those is a Nazi or sympathizer,
This seems to be a strange assumption to make about the FBI. Then again, I've had little contact with them ...

then one can assume of the 61% of the US population who is white, 326 million*61%*1/1000 ≈ 198,860 white supremacists in the US. Give that the number of FBI agents includes a great number of analysts, janitors, etc; the odds are good that you're punching an actual Nazi or sympathizer.
Ooooohhhhhhhhhhh, rrrright. I get it. Sorry. Misjudged the size of your comma there.

BBC says Klan groups are active in most US states and are estimated to have between 5,000 and 8,000 members, according to the SPLC ... The most recent membership figures for the NA, for 2012, are estimated to be at least 2,500, while an article published in the New York Times in 2011 said that the NSM consisted of about 400 members.

Huffington Post says While the vast majority of Americans polled expressed support for racial equality when asked in so many words ― 70 percent strongly agreed that “all races are equal,” and 89 percent agreed that all races should be treated equally ― people’s responses got murkier when it came to expressing their viewpoints on particular issues related to race and extremism. ... 31 percent of Americans polled strongly or somewhat agreed that “America must protect and preserve its White European heritage,” and 39 percent agreed that “white people are currently under attack in this country.” ... Around 1 in 6 Americans, or 16 percent, strongly or somewhat agreed that “marriage should only be allowed between people of the same race,” while 65 percent of Americans disagreed.

People opposed to inter-racial marriage outnumber FBI agents by almost 150 to 1, and the FBI agents know enough kung fu to avoid the punch anyway most times. Go for it.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:59 pm UTC

Maybe stop talking in inaccurate analogies and say what you mean clearly

Cause this
Yablo wrote:In either case, Chad knows better, and everyone else would have been better off if Chad just never showed up at all, but if Chad truly believes his dish is food, kicking him out really only amounts to bullying, albeit justified in the sense that he knew he was disrupting what would have been a nice dinner without his contribution.
reads to me as

the nazis know better, but if they truly believe they are right, kicking them out only amounts to bullying, though its justified because they knew they were disrupting a nice society
and...lol at the notion of saying its bullying to not allow nazis to take part in society
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:00 pm UTC

natraj wrote:are you really talking about bullying nazis

I'm talking about suppressing an American's 1st Amendment right to bring unpalatable food to a potluck.

CorruptUser wrote:Lutefisk is disgusting smelling, but other than ruining everyone else's dinner from the smell alone it doesn't seriously harm the others. Public nudity is like lutefisk, assuming they aren't sitting directly on public transportation or other unhygenic things, but other than being mildly offensive to the senses it doesn't harm you.

Chad isn't bringing lutefisk. Chad is at a party where everyone else is deathly allergic to nuts, and actively telling everyone else there to try his pecan pie, claiming it's nut-free. Oh he says "ha ha it's just a joke", but it's clear he's trying to actively harm everyone else. You do not invite people like that over. When one of the other guests punches Chad in the face for this, you don't side with Chad.

Oh, I agree. If you know Chad is only going to disrupt the meal by trying to kill people or make them sick, by all means, don't invite him. He's not the kind of person anyone wants at an event. But if you do invite him, he has a Constitutionally protected right to bring that pecan pie. He doesn't, however, have the right to make anyone try it or to lie about what's in it.
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Zohar
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:02 pm UTC

So you're saying Nazis should be allowed to have a platform.
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Yablo
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:05 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:Maybe stop talking in inaccurate analogies and say what you mean clearly

Cause this
Yablo wrote:In either case, Chad knows better, and everyone else would have been better off if Chad just never showed up at all, but if Chad truly believes his dish is food, kicking him out really only amounts to bullying, albeit justified in the sense that he knew he was disrupting what would have been a nice dinner without his contribution.
reads to me as

the nazis know better, but if they truly believe they are right, kicking them out only amounts to bullying, though its justified because they knew they were disrupting a nice society
and...lol at the notion of saying its bullying to not allow nazis to take part in society

Okay. As clearly as I can say it: Nazis have a Constitutionally protected right to say what they believe, and an event organizer has that same right to bar them from an event if what the Nazis have to say is counter to the spirit of the event.

Zohar wrote:So you're saying Nazis should be allowed to have a platform.

Allowed to have a platform, yes. The right to force anyone to hear what they have to say, no. The right to say what they believe to whoever will listen without having to worry about violent retaliation, yes.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:10 pm UTC

Spoilered because this is stupid.
Spoiler:
Yablo wrote:I'm talking about suppressing an American's 1st Amendment right to bring unpalatable food to a potluck.
Oh, I agree. If you know Chad is only going to disrupt the meal by trying to kill people or make them sick, by all means, don't invite him. He's not the kind of person anyone wants at an event. But if you do invite him, he has a Constitutionally protected right to bring that pecan pie. He doesn't, however, have the right to make anyone try it or to lie about what's in it.

Ah, so if we genocide forcibly relocate the neonazis first, then it's completely ethical.
Has anyone read the supposed trade deal between Korea and the US? I've heard the spin as a win for Trump's trade war, but I can't find any details on it. The only thing I can find is, https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/busi ... onomy.html


Trump’s China Policy Has a Flaw: It Makes China the Winner
Mr. Trump’s hard-line approach to China seems destined to fail. Taking a stand against China’s abusive behaviors is not necessarily wrong. The problem with the president’s game plan is that it is inconsistent with all the other diplomatic initiatives he has taken so far. The tangle of stabs and swipes at allies and rivals alike, in the service of ill-conceived goals like closing a trade deficit, serves China more than it does the United States.

“Trump has been a godsend for China,” noted Eswar Prasad, an expert on trade at Cornell University who once headed the China division at the International Monetary Fund. “China has manipulated the rules, but Trump’s response is counterproductive.”
So other than selling the US out to Russia and China, what is Trump doing with our foreign policy?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:14 pm UTC

So let's say Nazis are allowed to have a platform, and they recruit and grow as a movement, and eventually get control of government. What happens to the freedom of the rest of us? It's an issue of whether the objective of that speech is ultimately to cause harm.

There are limits to free speech; as soon as you are a political movement advocating for the harm or disenfranchisement of others, you have crossed the line into something that is incompatible with a free society.

Let's say you are marching with guns and yelling "Jews go home!" Is that not intimidation? Is the objective of that not to cause people to fear for their lives?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:13 pm UTC

The situation you describe is one of the great dilemmas of the modern age - and there's no real consensus even within the West on how to deal with it.

The question is: For ideologies that are damaging to liberal democracy itself, will allowing free expression cause the ideology to spread quicker, or will attempts at suppression cause it to spread quicker?

The US falls heavily on the side of permitting free expression, hoping the ideology will fall on its own merits. Unfortunately, the number of people who believe in nutty conspiracies like Flat Earth demonstrates that ideologies that tick all the right boxes can be quite cancerous.

Other Western democracies like Germany go heavily the other way, with expressions of Nazi ideology such as Holocaust denial actually being illegal.

Probably the answer is somewhere in the middle, but exactly where will vary on a case-by-case basis. It's really not clear how to deal with, say, the freedom of citizens to preach fundamentalist Islam within a democracy. Yes, education is a big part of the answer, but not everyone has been or can be educated to the degree that fundamentalist religion can't win them over - especially if they are angry and disenfranchised for some reason.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:24 pm UTC

Not helping things is that non-democracies and pseudi-democracies spend fortunes on conspiracy propaganda in order to sow dissent and undermine the central governments legitimacy, and this makes it easier for the nutjobs to take root. For instance, Russia was behind the JFK conspiracies at first, is likely funding the moontruthers and 911truthers and really anything with "truth" it. Assange is blatantly a Russian stooge hiding behind "free speech", and it's not funny anymore.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:26 pm UTC

John Stuart Mill wrote a very nice argument in On Liberty about why it is better to have patently false beliefs expressed and refuted in the light of day than to have them suppressed and festering in the dark. Short version from memory is that it's best if everyone has heard refutations of the falsehoods and as such become inoculated to their persuasive power, than that the falsehoods spread quietly until they reach and infect an unsuspecting host. (Mill doesn't use this viral analogy, I'm just borrowing some concepts from memetics).

That, and the whole "he who fights monsters" thing: fighting for openness and freedom and peace by means of violence, authority, and censorship is counter to our own goals. But that deontological argument has been gone over plenty already. The consequentialist argument Mill makes is my main contribution here.

And while I agree it's totally within the rights of any venue to deny any speaker a platform if they like, so long as there's not a universal ban on all such speech, I think the consequentialist line of argument above suggests it might be more productive, toward anti-Nazi goals, to not just decline to hear the Nazis, but to schedule a followup presentation immediately after the Nazi's to debunk everything that they just said. Use the Nazi's desire to speak their hate as an opportunity to elaborate on why they're wrong in every way.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:39 pm UTC

Do you often take modern public policy suggestions from people who don't know what the internet is?

You don't need the falsehoods to be out in the open before you promote the reputations. Using the disease analogy, you inoculate with vaccines without exposing people to the live virus. You can have anti-racist education without letting the racists run around.

And ultimately? The policy we should take depends entirely on how many Chads there are. If Chad is rare, just mocking him in public is more than enough. If Chad is entire percents of the population, you are going to need to be more proactive...


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