Trump presidency

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:51 pm UTC

cphite wrote:Since it's exceedingly rare for someone to be mistreated on the basis of their being white, there isn't a whole lot of need for groups to protect them against it.

Yup, the conclusion from noticing there are few groups dedicated to this task should be that there is no necessity for such groups, not that there is some kind of vast liberal conspiracy in play.

Instead of whites vs blacks, let's take men vs women for a moment.

There is a genuine perception - warranted or not - that men suffer discrimination in family courts: The woman typically receiving guardianship of the kids, men not receiving fair access to the kids, men being slammed financially in divorces etc.

The result? There are advocacy groups to support men fighting court orders, to advise them of their rights, to lobby politicians to reform the legal system etc.

There is no equivalent widespread institutional mistreatment of whites in the West, so the impetus for the creation of the equivalent to a Black Lives Matter campaign (say) simply isn't there...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:04 pm UTC

Well, wealth concentrates in wealthy areas, that tends to be coasts and large cities. Poor rural areas and poor urban areas both experience drug abuse, which goes hand in hand with poverty. It's just rural areas used to have strong manufacturing sectors, and that's run it's course. Now rural whites are experiencing the same drug abuse problem as minorities in poor urban areas, and there is no policy to reduce poverty that doesn't benefit minorities more (plus, they have convinced themselves that people who need assistance are the scum of the Earth in order to support cutting taxes), so they have embraced economic nationalism instead.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:14 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Instead of whites vs blacks, let's take men vs women for a moment.

There is a genuine perception - warranted or not - that men suffer discrimination in family courts: The woman typically receiving guardianship of the kids, men not receiving fair access to the kids, men being slammed financially in divorces etc.

The result? There are advocacy groups to support men fighting court orders, to advise them of their rights, to lobby politicians to reform the legal system etc.

There is no equivalent widespread institutional mistreatment of whites in the West, so the impetus for the creation of the equivalent to a Black Lives Matter campaign (say) simply isn't there...
I hadn't thought of this, and I think it's a pretty excellent way to illustrate how white identity is a uniquely bizarre concept. The power differential between men and women is more complicated than men always standing above women; our culture treats men as a disposable asset -- derides them for expressing emotion -- treats them as more deserving of violence -- and even dismisses the possibility that they could be victims of domestic abuse or sexual assault (particularly if the perpetrator is a woman). These attacks can be uniquely male experiences for which we can imagine a uniquely male response -- a community of men striving to help and support other men as they navigate a culture aligned against their identity and well-being.

It's really hard to imagine an equivalent for white people, though. In pretty much every way imaginable, being white in America either doesn't hurt you or actively helps you.

I guess, like... maybe one way in which being white can be a 'detriment' is the lack of some automatic default community you belong to? But there are so many different communities centered around so many different types of identity -- it seems extremely sketchy to me to talk about creating a 'white community' because a bunch of white people can't find anything else they have in common besides -- literally -- the color of their skin.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Angua » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:37 pm UTC

I mean, to be fair, a lot of people who complain about the lack of a 'British' identity or 'white culture' miss the point.

Of course there is a British culture. It includes toad in the hole, mince pies at christmas, having tea in the afternoon, Christmas crackers, flaming Christmas puddings, talking about the weather and starting a family gathering with a conversation about what route you took to come. It also includes pork pies, and cornish pasties, and then as you go into more localised pockets - maypoles, morris dancers and well-dressing. Also, crumbles, apple pies (sorry Americans) and a familiarity with Roald Dahl. Also, the children doing the Nativity at Christmas.

The problem is, a lot of people who Brexiters and the like wouldn't count as 'British' now do these things to! So how can it be British culture? These are just normal, every day things. Whereas you've got the people from the Caribbean doing exotic things like having a carnival with cool costumes and flying kites on Good Friday and drinking strange drinks at Christmas, and having (gasp) rice with Christmas dinner. They get together and share their cultural experience (oh, you fly them on Good Friday? We do it on Easter Monday) and we're here with no culture and being boring old British people.

They are missing the wood for the trees. The reason they don't see their culture is because they've never been out of it long enough to notice that they've exported their culture around the planet, and so obviously it's not going to feel as unique as the culture from a small pocket of the world that you've never even heard of.

edit: while Roald Dahl, the nativity and apple pies are also found the US, pretty much everything up there is definitely British. I'm sure one could find a similar assortment of things Americans do like eggnog and sweet potato pie (which apparently has marshmallows??) and smores but I'm really not hot enough on stuff in the US to do it off the top of my head.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:25 pm UTC

I enjoyed reading that post

I have spoken with Ophelia Dahl before she is v cool
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby arbiteroftruth » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:46 am UTC

Regarding the topic of "white identity", I think what we're seeing on the rise would more accurately be described as a "white conservative identity". The galvanizing shared experience that forms that identity for these people is their role in the political discourse itself.

It's pretty common, on either side of the aisle, for an outsider to be shouted down and dismissed out of hand. A liberal talking to a bunch of conservatives is apt to be dismissed as "just an idiot liberal snowflake", and a conservative talking to a bunch of liberals is apt to be dismissed as "just another conservative bigot".

But over the past 8 years in particular, with a liberal black president, big political victories for liberals, and the rise of social media at the same time, white conservatives who expressed disagreement with the way things were going got an extra strong, extended dose of "you're just a white guy who hates that we have a black president; your opinion doesn't matter". The out-of-hand dismissal gained a consistent racial component, and thus produced a racial identity of "the irrelevant white people".

In essence, the notion of "there is no galvanizing shared experience for white people" is a self-defeating observation, because that observation itself exists within the political discourse, which is part of the culture that shapes such identities.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:58 am UTC

arbiteroftruth wrote:In essence, the notion of "there is no galvanizing shared experience for white people" is a self-defeating observation, because that observation itself exists within the political discourse, which is part of the culture that shapes such identities.
I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but -- if that is the case, that's extremely hard to work with. If the primary galvanizing shared experience for white people is getting yelled at by obnoxious liberals on account of being "white", then 'white identity' is little more than an overblown persecution complex. And pointing out that it's an overblown persecution complex merely serves to validate that persecution complex. But pretending like it isn't a persecution complex lets them control and pervert the dialogue in ways that are... kind of intolerable.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby arbiteroftruth » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:10 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but -- if that is the case, that's extremely hard to work with. If the primary galvanizing shared experience for white people is getting yelled at by obnoxious liberals on account of being "white", then 'white identity' is little more than an overblown persecution complex. And pointing out that it's an overblown persecution complex merely serves to validate that persecution complex. But pretending like it isn't a persecution complex lets them control and pervert the dialogue in ways that are... kind of intolerable.


If I'm right about the cause, the key word is 'dismissal'. The "white identity" is just one particular symptom of our political culture's increasing inability to express strong disagreement without combining it with complete dismissal of the other view. It's the difference between "you're completely and dangerously wrong, and here's why", and "you're completely and dangerously wrong, and therefore not worth talking to".

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ivnja » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:34 am UTC

So, Trump.

The Administration has requested the presence of the entire Senate on Wednesday for a White House briefing on the North Korea situation with Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, SecDef Jim Mattis, Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats, and Joint Chiefs chairman General Joseph Dunford. Reddit (or the World News subreddit, at least) has collectively decided that this is a precursor to a request for a declaration of war.

Discuss.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:04 am UTC

Starting WWIII cause your health care plan was shitty and you want something by the 100-day mark is just great.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:12 am UTC

ivnja wrote:So, Trump.

The Administration has requested the presence of the entire Senate on Wednesday for a White House briefing on the North Korea situation with Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, SecDef Jim Mattis, Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats, and Joint Chiefs chairman General Joseph Dunford. Reddit (or the World News subreddit, at least) has collectively decided that this is a precursor to a request for a declaration of war.

Discuss.

Do you have a link? A source?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cyanyoshi » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:45 am UTC

sardia wrote:
ivnja wrote:So, Trump.

The Administration has requested the presence of the entire Senate on Wednesday for a White House briefing on the North Korea situation with Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, SecDef Jim Mattis, Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats, and Joint Chiefs chairman General Joseph Dunford. Reddit (or the World News subreddit, at least) has collectively decided that this is a precursor to a request for a declaration of war.

Discuss.

Do you have a link? A source?

This is the only source I could find.
A senior Trump administration official said the flurry of activity around North Korea was "not a part of something choreographed" and cautioned against over-interpretation.

This should be interesting regardless.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:04 pm UTC

Vox seems to imply this was a briefing called by Mitch McConnel and that Trump just offered to let them hold it at the White House instead of the normal place they'd hold such a briefing. This is presumably being done as a message that the white house is also taking this seriously.

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/ ... a-briefing

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ivnja » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:44 pm UTC

Sorry, yes, I meant to post the Reuters article that cyanyoshi linked.

I've mostly given up trying to predict what Trump might do, but if this were to be the lead-up to a military solution (formally-declared war or not)...well, we'd better hope that the people of Seoul have deep bomb shelters, because they'll get hit hard. If the South is pushing for this as the time for things to come to a head once and for all and the administration is just enthusiastically supporting it, I can sort of get behind it and would support full-scale US military involvement, but I'm concerned about Trump aggressively posturing on his own and this turning into something out of hand that our regional allies have to bear the brunt of.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:15 pm UTC

ivnja wrote:Sorry, yes, I meant to post the Reuters article that cyanyoshi linked.

I've mostly given up trying to predict what Trump might do, but if this were to be the lead-up to a military solution (formally-declared war or not)...well, we'd better hope that the people of Seoul have deep bomb shelters, because they'll get hit hard. If the South is pushing for this as the time for things to come to a head once and for all and the administration is just enthusiastically supporting it, I can sort of get behind it and would support full-scale US military involvement, but I'm concerned about Trump aggressively posturing on his own and this turning into something out of hand that our regional allies have to bear the brunt of.

Seoul treats North Korea like how New Orleans treats hurricanes. Abstractly they know it's a threat, but they still live there, stupidly. And the government won't tax them to move out of range of artillery.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:53 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Abstractly they know it's a threat, but they still live there, stupidly.

Condescending much?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:30 pm UTC

arbiteroftruth wrote:Regarding the topic of "white identity", I think what we're seeing on the rise would more accurately be described as a "white conservative identity". The galvanizing shared experience that forms that identity for these people is their role in the political discourse itself.

It's pretty common, on either side of the aisle, for an outsider to be shouted down and dismissed out of hand. A liberal talking to a bunch of conservatives is apt to be dismissed as "just an idiot liberal snowflake", and a conservative talking to a bunch of liberals is apt to be dismissed as "just another conservative bigot".


Sorry, but being yelled at or called a name when you make a political point does not rise to anything remotely close to facing actual discrimination.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:19 pm UTC

cphite wrote:Sorry, but being yelled at or called a name when you make a political point does not rise to anything remotely close to facing actual discrimination.

What? How do you define when discrimination is "actual"? As soon as you move past that political point and start assuming the other person holds various other beliefs based on [insert political party here] stereotypes, treating them differently because of that is clearly discrimination. Better than being shot at by cops, if that's what you're getting at, but what you're describing is still verbal abuse.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:26 pm UTC

"Meh"ing at that, SDK, since we're talking about reciprocal behavior during debates/discussions/verbal fights and not a system oppression done by one group on another.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:29 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
sardia wrote:Abstractly they know it's a threat, but they still live there, stupidly.

Condescending much?

http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-spe ... d-reality/
I looked it up, and it's not as bad as the news says it is. Assuming you're ok with tens of thousands dead instead of a whole city for 2 weeks to 2 months. Assumptions are no nukes, and north Korea does a surprise attack, meaning 3000 to 30,000 dead. The report is old though, 2012.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:36 pm UTC

That's not what I'm objecting to, I'm objecting to you calling people stupid for doing so.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:57 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:"Meh"ing at that, SDK, since we're talking about reciprocal behavior during debates/discussions/verbal fights and not a system oppression done by one group on another.

It kinda is though, right? You see a middle-aged man with a pot belly in a plaid shirt walk into a bar, what do you think are his political views? You've got an image of this man in your mind now. What colour is his skin in your mind's eye? Yeah, you've assumed correctly - he's white. You ask him if he believes global climate change is natural and not a concern, he gives a tentative "Yes...", what are you thinking about his level of intelligence? More likely than not you're nodding to yourself that all your stereotypes about this man have just been proven true. More likely than not you're strongly tending towards treating anything this man has to say as irrelevant (even moreso than you probably already were). Even if the "you" in this paragraph doesn't actually describe you, this is the perception and often the reality that many conservatives face when they meet liberals. It's not discrimination until you act on those beliefs of course, but if you go on to berate them and loudly proclaim that they are what's wrong with this country while calling them names and showing them very clearly that their concerns just don't matter, yeah, that looks a lot like oppression to me.

Spoiler:
Image

(Again, for the generic and hypothetical "you" that I was talking about above)


Obviously that oppression pales in comparison to a shitton of examples that have happened and are happening. But if we're discussing what the driver for the "white identity" movement is, or how could white people possibly feel oppressed, that's it. The feeling that no one outside their inner circle has any respect for them, their concerns or their beliefs.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:06 pm UTC

I think you're confusing oppression with being a bigot or having preconceptions about people. Oppression requires power. In these interactions, white people have the power, generally speaking. Also, I find your example very simplistic. If everyone here ignored people with differing opinions, N&A wouldn't have over 300,000 posts. I'm not saying the discourse is always courteous (let's be honest, it's usually not), but people are capable of having polite discussions and often do. And the perception you think conservatives have of liberals and the scenario you describe stems as much from liberals' view of conservatives as it does from conservative preconceptions of elitist liberals.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:20 pm UTC

Okay, that's fair, though I will point out that liberals have had the power for a while and have steadily been changing the American political landscape for the past few decades. Specifically, moving it away from the concerns and values of that stereotypical conservative. Liberals aren't the only ones with power, but they do have power. Regardless of whether or not their perceptions of oppression are justified (I think they are to some degree, but you're welcome to disagree), arbiteroftruth hit upon the same thing when he compared "white identity" to "white conservative identity". The perception of oppression is all that's really required in order to explain this rise.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:23 pm UTC

My dad can't tell his favorite jokes anymore for fear that people will say that these jokes are not funny because they are racist and sexist.

Dammit, he feels oppressed. And even his own children refuse to feel his pain.

Meanwhile, unarmed black people are getting shot and beaten by police, and there are lots of demonstrations about that. Where are the protesters defending my father's God-given right, as a white male born in the 1940s, to have people laugh when he tells jokes about brown people and women? It's so unfair.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:26 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:My dad can't tell his favorite jokes anymore for fear that people will say that these jokes are not funny because they are racist and sexist.

Dammit, he feels oppressed. And even his own children refuse to feel his pain.

Meanwhile, unarmed black people are getting shot and beaten by police, and there are lots of demonstrations about that. Where are the protesters defending my father's God-given right, as a white male born in the 1940s, to have people laugh when he tells jokes about brown people and women? It's so unfair.

:D
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:03 am UTC

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/3304 ... order-wall
Cruz's bill, the Ensuring Lawful Collection of Hidden Assets to Provide Order Act,
...that looks "meaningful". Ah!
Haha!
Haha-haha-ha!
...right, then.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Puppyclaws » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:17 am UTC

SDK wrote:
Zohar wrote:"Meh"ing at that, SDK, since we're talking about reciprocal behavior during debates/discussions/verbal fights and not a system oppression done by one group on another.

It kinda is though, right? You see a middle-aged man with a pot belly in a plaid shirt walk into a bar, what do you think are his political views? You've got an image of this man in your mind now. What colour is his skin in your mind's eye? Yeah, you've assumed correctly - he's white. You ask him if he believes global climate change is natural and not a concern, he gives a tentative "Yes...", what are you thinking about his level of intelligence? More likely than not you're nodding to yourself that all your stereotypes about this man have just been proven true. More likely than not you're strongly tending towards treating anything this man has to say as irrelevant (even moreso than you probably already were). Even if the "you" in this paragraph doesn't actually describe you, this is the perception and often the reality that many conservatives face when they meet liberals. It's not discrimination until you act on those beliefs of course, but if you go on to berate them and loudly proclaim that they are what's wrong with this country while calling them names and showing them very clearly that their concerns just don't matter, yeah, that looks a lot like oppression to me.


There is not just a little bit of irony in your stereotyping how liberals stereotype people.

My problem isn't even "this isn't oppression". My problem is this is unreality. This is not a thing that happens in the real world on a systematic basis.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:01 am UTC

SDK wrote:Regardless of whether or not their perceptions of oppression are justified (I think they are to some degree, but you're welcome to disagree), arbiteroftruth hit upon the same thing when he compared "white identity" to "white conservative identity". The perception of oppression is all that's really required in order to explain this rise.
It's a weird space to be in, because -- while I do think a lot of white Americans have experienced oppression -- it really doesn't have anything to do with their race. It has to do with their financial status, their gender, their sexuality, their appearance, their neurology, their mental health, their bodies, the social expectations put upon them...

On top of that, I think a lot of people are afraid -- afraid of an incomprehensibly complex world that's only getting more complicated day by day. Throw in a hyperbolic media that soothes them by flattening everything into ultra-sensationalized talking points with zero nuance -- add a dash of demagoguery, offering simple, "obvious and clear" solutions -- then bake for three hours at 350 degrees Fahrenheit (because fuck-off with your Pro-Euro Celsius wankery; this is MURRRRCA).

"White identity" seems like an attempt to lay claim to the language of those who are clearly suffering to express a kind of suffering that is much less clear. I mean, that's the only explanation I can accept -- if someone tells me they're being oppressed by liberal jerks telling them they should feel guilty for being white, I am left with only three choices. Presume they're lying, presume they're sincere but misrepresenting a deeper pain, or presume they're blithering blatherskites who can't tell the difference between systematic oppression and obnoxious people being obnoxious. Because if your deal really is just that somebody once called you a racist asshole for liking Archie Bunker, then I don't know what to do with you. Apparently make you President?

I definitely agree that it sucks to be treated like you're a racist for trivial things; I agree that "white guilt" is a harmful trope. I agree that a lot of liberals are assholes who try to simplify everyone they meet into "one of us" or "one of them". But this isn't, in any way, oppression; not unless your definition of oppression is so hyper-sensitive that you think the post I've written here qualifies.

EDIT: And maybe I'm glossing over a problem with liberals (myself included) which helps add accelerant to the fire of 'white identity': The tendency to speak as if being white somehow makes it impossible to experience oppression. It's hard to imagine how you could be oppressed because you're white, but it's not hard to see how you could be oppressed despite being white. I think this is a distinction a lot of liberals fail to make (especially the more obnoxious ones).

As gross as it might sound to say, even Donald Trump can experience systematic oppression. We might not really care when he does, but that doesn't mean he can't still experience it -- and if you're a liberal who doesn't get that nuance, I can see how you might push white conservatives to identify with their whiteness as a sort of defense mechanism.

(But that defense mechanism is still bullshit)

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:06 am UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:My dad can't tell his favorite jokes anymore for fear that people will say that these jokes are not funny because they are racist and sexist.

Dammit, he feels oppressed. And even his own children refuse to feel his pain.

Meanwhile, unarmed black people are getting shot and beaten by police, and there are lots of demonstrations about that. Where are the protesters defending my father's God-given right, as a white male born in the 1940s, to have people laugh when he tells jokes about brown people and women? It's so unfair.
Yet your father raised you. Go figure.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:35 pm UTC

Your point, Morris?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:29 pm UTC

I should have known.

ObsessoMom seems to be a reasonable and caring person based on my meager sampling of her posts. It occurred to me that at least in some respects her father must be the same. I ascribe to the adage that the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. So I supposed that he might be disturbed by some of the same things that disturb her. Even if he doesn't say it. Like say, black males being murdered by the police.

Is that sufficient?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby WibblyWobbly » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:47 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:I should have known.

ObsessoMom seems to be a reasonable and caring person based on my meager sampling of her posts. It occurred to me that at least in some respects her father must be the same. I ascribe to the adage that the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. So I supposed that he might be disturbed by some of the same things that disturb her. Even if he doesn't say it. Like say, black males being murdered by the police.

Is that sufficient?

Emphasis mine.

The things that "occured to" are meaningless, and an adage (read: cliche with anecdotal evidence at best) is hardly a basis for making assumptions about people for whom you have vanishingly little knowledge. You can't expect anyone else to actually take that seriously.

Lots of people grow up to be thoughtful, caring people in spite of their parents, not because of them. I can't say that of ObsessoMom or the father, but I personally know of a number of people who fit that bill (people who became well-adjusted adults in spite of their parents' virulent racism/sexism/homophobia, etc.). And since your burden of proof seems to be anecdotes, I take it you agree that I'm right.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:53 pm UTC

WibblyWobbly wrote:
morriswalters wrote:I should have known.

ObsessoMom seems to be a reasonable and caring person based on my meager sampling of her posts. It occurred to me that at least in some respects her father must be the same. I ascribe to the adage that the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. So I supposed that he might be disturbed by some of the same things that disturb her. Even if he doesn't say it. Like say, black males being murdered by the police.

Is that sufficient?

Emphasis mine.

The things that "occured to" are meaningless, and an adage (read: cliche with anecdotal evidence at best) is hardly a basis for making assumptions about people for whom you have vanishingly little knowledge. You can't expect anyone else to actually take that seriously.

Lots of people grow up to be thoughtful, caring people in spite of their parents, not because of them. I can't say that of ObsessoMom or the father, but I personally know of a number of people who fit that bill (people who became well-adjusted adults in spite of their parents' virulent racism/sexism/homophobia, etc.). And since your burden of proof seems to be anecdotes, I take it you agree that I'm right.

Wait, what's improbable about thoughtful caring people who also don't care about insert minority here?

Back on topic, Trump proposes massive corporate tax cut and Republicans plan to make it temporary and not funded to get it through Democrats. Looks like fiscal conservativism is in hibernation until the Democrats are back in charge. http://www.npr.org/2017/04/26/525683530 ... s-tax-plan

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby WibblyWobbly » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:56 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
WibblyWobbly wrote:
morriswalters wrote:I should have known.

ObsessoMom seems to be a reasonable and caring person based on my meager sampling of her posts. It occurred to me that at least in some respects her father must be the same. I ascribe to the adage that the fruit doesn't fall far from the tree. So I supposed that he might be disturbed by some of the same things that disturb her. Even if he doesn't say it. Like say, black males being murdered by the police.

Is that sufficient?

Emphasis mine.

The things that "occured to" are meaningless, and an adage (read: cliche with anecdotal evidence at best) is hardly a basis for making assumptions about people for whom you have vanishingly little knowledge. You can't expect anyone else to actually take that seriously.

Lots of people grow up to be thoughtful, caring people in spite of their parents, not because of them. I can't say that of ObsessoMom or the father, but I personally know of a number of people who fit that bill (people who became well-adjusted adults in spite of their parents' virulent racism/sexism/homophobia, etc.). And since your burden of proof seems to be anecdotes, I take it you agree that I'm right.

Wait, what's improbable about thoughtful caring people who also don't care about insert minority here?


Nothing?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:17 pm UTC

cyanyoshi wrote:
sardia wrote:
ivnja wrote:So, Trump.

The Administration has requested the presence of the entire Senate on Wednesday for a White House briefing on the North Korea situation with Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, SecDef Jim Mattis, Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats, and Joint Chiefs chairman General Joseph Dunford. Reddit (or the World News subreddit, at least) has collectively decided that this is a precursor to a request for a declaration of war.

Discuss.

Do you have a link? A source?

This is the only source I could find.
A senior Trump administration official said the flurry of activity around North Korea was "not a part of something choreographed" and cautioned against over-interpretation.

This should be interesting regardless.


The meeting was scheduled today at 3:00pm. As of my post, its past 4:00pm.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04 ... korea.html

Sorry for linking FoxNews, but they were the first hit on google. And besides, this is informational. I doubt that they're wrong in saying "The meeting happened at 3:00pm today".

In any cases, I'm not seeing any declarations of war or anything on the news yet. The media seem to be silent on this issue right now, so maybe nothing has really happened here? There's been some discussion that all Trump really wanted was a picture of 100-senators visiting him ahead of his 100-day mark.

Or maybe the meeting is going on longer than an hour and I'm just a bit early?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby MartianInvader » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:27 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:EDIT: And maybe I'm glossing over a problem with liberals (myself included) which helps add accelerant to the fire of 'white identity': The tendency to speak as if being white somehow makes it impossible to experience oppression. It's hard to imagine how you could be oppressed because you're white, but it's not hard to see how you could be oppressed despite being white. I think this is a distinction a lot of liberals fail to make (especially the more obnoxious ones).

I think you're getting closer to the crux of "white identity" with this observation. The identity and views you're talking about are held by people that have more in common than race - they are generally rural, lower-middle class blue-collar workers with high-school level education. Ask them if a white liberal yuppie with a PhD is "one of them" and they'll probably say no. And things have been tougher for rural blue-collar workers recently (I don't know if it reaches the level of "oppression", but I think they certainly view many of the previous administration's policies as working against them).

But simple messages sell. It's much easier for this group to unite under a "white identity" than a "white, non-college educated, rural identity".
Let's have a fervent argument, mostly over semantics, where we all claim the burden of proof is on the other side!

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dark567 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:35 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:"White identity" seems like an attempt to lay claim to the language of those who are clearly suffering to express a kind of suffering that is much less clear. I mean, that's the only explanation I can accept -- if someone tells me they're being oppressed by liberal jerks telling them they should feel guilty for being white, I am left with only three choices. Presume they're lying, presume they're sincere but misrepresenting a deeper pain, or presume they're blithering blatherskites who can't tell the difference between systematic oppression and obnoxious people being obnoxious. Because if your deal really is just that somebody once called you a racist asshole for liking Archie Bunker, then I don't know what to do with you. Apparently make you President?



I think, Scott Alexander does a good job of digging in why people feel that way here. Warning: Very long post, but lots of insight.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:06 pm UTC

China launched their new (second ever, first that isn't a reconditioned import!) aircraft carrier. Obviously it has been long heralded, and doesn't suddenly make China do the "our words are backed with A NEW AIRCRAFT CARRIER!" thing, in any reasonable mind...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:24 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:I think, Scott Alexander does a good job of digging in why people feel that way here. Warning: Very long post, but lots of insight.
There's some bits in that article I agree with, and some bits in that article I disagree with. I think, however, the most relevant point to bring up here is that while Donald Sterling might have gotten a lot of shit for saying something racist, Donald Trump has been saying racist shit for years. It's hard to argue that there's some sort of systematic anti-racial pressure making life rough for white conservatives when Trump is our flipping President. I mean, you can argue that's why he got elected -- because white conservatives were tired of all the anti-racism policing. But, like... if that's the case, then Trump supporters have some absurdly screwed up values.

I'm opposed to hateful rhetoric as a rule. That being said, if obnoxious, petty-minded liberals beating you verbally with concepts like 'white privilege' is enough to convince you to vote for a guy like Trump, then you've got serious problems that go way beyond your negative experiences with "social justice warriors". While I definitely think it's important that we stop liberals from using concepts like anti-racism as a self-affirming weapon to increase their social status (and I accept that that is a thing), this still in no way validates the idea of 'white identity', nor makes Trump in any way a reasonable choice.

If my house is on fire -- and I start yelling at everybody I see because I'm just so angry about my house being on fire -- the appropriate response is not to immediately set the entire fucking neighborhood ablaze.


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