Trump presidency

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:47 pm UTC

i'm really tempted to draw you a map and show you exactly what continent india is on, KE.

anyway though yes there are reasons for us folks from asia to support open immigration. it is possible to support things for reasons other than 100% self-interest just because ethically you feel it is the right thing to do; it is possible to support things FOR reasons that are self-interested as a Certified American Now because immgrants (regardless of where they're coming from) do in fact tend to make more positive contributions to the country than detrimental.

regardless of all the trumpers' hysteria, undocumented immigration hasn't even BEEN a "problem" for a long time -- net undocumented immigration has been DECLINING for a decade now. so it's not even like we're being flooded with undocumented immigrants, that image is solely a function of conservative propagandizing; we have fewer undocumented immigrants in the country than we have in the past.

so anyway people don't in fact think as a monolith and people from all kindsa communities can have reasons for supporting open borders since immigrants (documented or otherwise) aren't hurting the country that we live in and maybe some of us are happy to have them here.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:51 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:By seeing illegal immigrants get off scott free (when instead say... my cousins fail the diversity lottery), it is most certainly an unfair feeling.
That's fine, and even understandable; you're welcome to those feelings. But good policy isn't built around what 'feels' fair; it's built around what works.


Look, immigrants come in all walks of life. Skilled, unskilled. Educated, uneducated, etc. etc.

We can look at the immigrants who help the USA a lot (there's a good list here for example... the "Unicorn Companies" and their relationship with immigrants). Refugees seem to be a good source of innovation, so yeah, I can get behind them.

Other sources of innovation are highly-educated immigrants: engineers and whatnot. Of course, that list is more startup-based... so we can also take into account the large number of immigrant nurses who are holding the health care system together. (I think we can all agree that more nurses are a good thing in the current environment?)

Focusing on say, entrepreneurial Mexican immigrants (and the indicators that suggest it... like engineering degrees or business degrees), as opposed to just letting everyone in, just makes simple sense. Bringing in more unskilled labor makes no fucking sense at all with our shrinking manufacturing base (yeah, we are making more shit. But we are making more shit with fewer jobs).
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:54 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learners/study-test/study-materials-english-test

I read up on that, already. There are exemptions available (the 50/20 one probably didn't apply to your parents, but it's prominent in the kinds of people we are otherwise talking about) and interpreters are allowable at all stages of the process1, including at the Oath ceremony itself.

So nothing so absolute. You don't even have English as a national Official Language, so interesting to wonder if the rules which do (some of the time) require English are a constitutional over-reach.


1 Albeit in the English Test stage, it's as the sole method of withdrawing from the Naturalisation process - i.e. you cannot utterly fail the English interview and then decide to abandon the rest of the process without a translator there to make it a completely valid understanding of the fallout of the decision to withdraw. Which seems to me to be a fix to prior dodgy practices, so can't complain.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:57 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:There's nothing I have against illegal immigrants aside from the fact that they strictly undermine the immigration system. Its not that "others have it harder", its that "others are following the rules". By seeing illegal immigrants get off scott free (when instead say... my cousins fail the diversity lottery), it is most certainly an unfair feeling.


Okay, so then we should rip their entire life out from under them? Why not just fine them and make them get documents? Why not just make it easier to immigrate legally from Mexico?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:58 pm UTC

I keep seeing the claim that "Asia does not share a border with the US" as if that is the proof for the argument that there is an insubstantial amount of illegal immigration from Asian countries. This just isn't true (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/19/us/as ... -wave.html) as a simple google search will satisfy. Combine that many hopeful asian immigrants travel to Mexico in order to cross the US-Mexico border along with everyone else (Tijuana has a large asian population as a result).
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:59 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:There's nothing I have against illegal immigrants aside from the fact that they strictly undermine the immigration system. Its not that "others have it harder", its that "others are following the rules". By seeing illegal immigrants get off scott free (when instead say... my cousins fail the diversity lottery), it is most certainly an unfair feeling.


Okay, so then we should rip their entire life out from under them? Why not just fine them and make them get documents? Why not just make it easier to immigrate legally from Mexico?


Honest question: do you believe that an influx of low-skilled / unskilled laborers will improve the state of the USA today?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:02 pm UTC

Also, not to gang-pile, but...
KnightExemplar wrote:By seeing illegal immigrants get off scott free (when instead say... my cousins fail the diversity lottery), it is most certainly an unfair feeling.
I just have to say something else about this because it's bugging the crap out of me:

It's super weird to hear someone describe undocumented immigrants as getting off 'scott free', because it makes it sound like they all want to be undocumented. Like, if came here illegally, it's probably because your situation is all kinds of fucked up. It's not like there's some segment of the undocumented immigrant population that could have come here through proper channels, but decided -- nah, being undocumented is a way sweeter deal.

I mean, I get that it feels unfair to see someone get a break when your cousin didn't -- but maybe, instead of focusing on taking someone's opportunities away, we should focus on giving someone like your cousin those opportunities, too?
KnightExemplar wrote:Honest question: do you believe that an influx of low-skilled / unskilled laborers will improve the state of the USA today?
Do you think... the majority of immigrants just don't have... skills?

Like, what do you imagine they did before they came here? Stared at a wall?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:04 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Thesh wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:There's nothing I have against illegal immigrants aside from the fact that they strictly undermine the immigration system. Its not that "others have it harder", its that "others are following the rules". By seeing illegal immigrants get off scott free (when instead say... my cousins fail the diversity lottery), it is most certainly an unfair feeling.


Okay, so then we should rip their entire life out from under them? Why not just fine them and make them get documents? Why not just make it easier to immigrate legally from Mexico?


Honest question: do you believe that an influx of low-skilled / unskilled laborers will improve the state of the USA today?

Look at what natraj just posted. That influx just doesn't exist to the extent conservatives claim it does.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:07 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Thesh wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:There's nothing I have against illegal immigrants aside from the fact that they strictly undermine the immigration system. Its not that "others have it harder", its that "others are following the rules". By seeing illegal immigrants get off scott free (when instead say... my cousins fail the diversity lottery), it is most certainly an unfair feeling.


Okay, so then we should rip their entire life out from under them? Why not just fine them and make them get documents? Why not just make it easier to immigrate legally from Mexico?


Honest question: do you believe that an influx of low-skilled / unskilled laborers will improve the state of the USA today?


Improve the state of the USA? Well, I believe we can significantly improve the state of the USA period, and allowing a significant amount of immigration of impoverished workers and refugees would not significantly hinder that improvement, and I believe that even if we end up below our other potential, the world as a whole becomes a better place.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:32 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:It's super weird to hear someone describe undocumented immigrants as getting off 'scott free', because it makes it sound like they all want to be undocumented. Like, if came here illegally, it's probably because your situation is all kinds of fucked up. It's not like there's some segment of the undocumented immigrant population that could have come here through proper channels, but decided -- nah, being undocumented is a way sweeter deal.


Well there are a couple of possibilities here.
1) They were fleeing or otherwise scared for their lives and decided to cross illegally due to the time it would take to go through the legal process
2) They decided they wouldn't be able to meet the requirements for legal immigration and thus didn't try
3) They had previously been rejected for legal immigration
4) They didn't want to wait the time it took to go through the legal process

The first case is generally the case for asking for asylum as a refugee or the like. But even that has a fair bit of red tape around it, so I can have some sympathy for those in that case. For the other 3 cases though I'm not so sure. You don't have a right to live in a country you weren't born in.

Bringing this back into the current affairs view, it certainly does seem unproductive to go after people who've been here for decades already. If they've been here that long its likely they're providing far more benefit than harm to the societies they are in anyways. As such creating these deportation squads and the like is wasteful and only serves as a future deterrent to immigrating illegally. I can't imagine that deterrent is worth the cost.

Toughening up your borders and trying to stem illegal immigration may be less wasteful. That said it's not clear that the numbers are really high enough to justify spending a lot there anyways.

Do you think... the majority of immigrants just don't have... skills?

Like, what do you imagine they did before they came here? Stared at a wall?


This has to be disingenuous. I can't imagine you're unfamiliar with the term "unskilled labor".

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:38 pm UTC

Chen wrote:This has to be disingenuous. I can't imagine you're unfamiliar with the term "unskilled labor".
Yes; I'm familiar with labor that requires very little skill or experience to accomplish. I am not, however, familiar with the term 'unskilled laborer'.

How do you determine whether or not someone has no skills? Do you test them on everything you think qualifies as a skill?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:51 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Yes; I'm familiar with labor that requires very little skill or experience to accomplish. I am not, however, familiar with the term 'unskilled laborer'.

How do you determine whether or not someone has no skills? Do you test them on everything you think qualifies as a skill?


Well in the scope of immigration you generally look to training certificates and/or educational degrees. Education and/or work experience are large factors in whether or not a country will let you immigrate.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:06 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Well in the scope of immigration you generally look to training certificates and/or educational degrees. Education and/or work experience are large factors in whether or not a country will let you immigrate.
But that's just predictive analysis. Just because you've designated me as a 'high-risk investment' doesn't mean I'm unskilled; it just means you don't think I have a skillset that has a high likelihood of enriching the marketplace.

I am not familiar with the term. If it's applied to immigrants, I can't help but think it feels a little gross; you really can't flatten something as complicated as a person's experience to 'unskilled'. On top of that, it's got a real capitalistic fetish to it -- like the only people worth our time are the people with skills we've designated as 'economically viable'.

Then again, that's probably a problem with the whole system -- one that's terrified of an imaginary horde of unwashed, 'unskilled' masses that will flood all of our streets, mooch off of our taxes, and drive around shooting up all our jobs.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:06 pm UTC

Liri wrote:Look at what natraj just posted. That influx just doesn't exist to the extent conservatives claim it does.


I fully agree that the conservative party overblows the issue of unskilled immigrants entering this country.

That doesn't change the fact that its an issue that needs to be discussed in the scope of immigration policy. The Department of State will get applications from people trying to apply for Visas, and there are a limited number of Visas they are legally able to give out by law. The liberals seem to suggest erasing the cap of visas will improve the state of this country, while I'm arguing that the process of checking for skills and filtering out immigrants will improve the country.

Improve the state of the USA? Well, I believe we can significantly improve the state of the USA period, and allowing a significant amount of immigration of impoverished workers and refugees would not significantly hinder that improvement, and I believe that even if we end up below our other potential, the world as a whole becomes a better place.


Refugees are a special case. Refugees are important to demonstrate that the USA is a responsible world leader, among other publicity benefits. The simple task of accepting refugees itself benefits the USA. It seems like refugee's experience with losing a home gives them a unique experience that often leads to good citizenship in general, so I'm of the opinion that Refugees seem to be beneficial to the USA... in the general case.

As for your opinion, I strongly disagree with it. There are immigrants who can help the country, there are immigrants who will not. And while conservatives overstate the effect of illegal-drug dealers... I will for a fact mention that MS-13 was active at my high school. So it may be overstated by Republicans, but there are certainly immigrants who can harm the USA.

At very least, we probably shouldn't let in the MS-13 gang members. Can we at least agree on that?

The Great Hippo wrote:
Chen wrote:Well in the scope of immigration you generally look to training certificates and/or educational degrees. Education and/or work experience are large factors in whether or not a country will let you immigrate.
But that's just predictive analysis. Just because you've designated me as a 'high-risk investment' doesn't mean I'm unskilled; it just means you don't think I have a skillset that has a high likelihood of enriching the marketplace.

I am not familiar with the term. If it's applied to immigrants, I can't help but think it feels a little gross; you really can't flatten something as complicated as a person's experience to 'unskilled'. On top of that, it's got a real capitalistic fetish to it -- like the only people worth our time are the people with skills we've designated as 'economically viable'.


Then lets call them uneducated immigrants. Those with less than a high school diploma or equivalent. In any case, these (would-be) immigrants have a very low chance of positively affecting the USA.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:09 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Refugees are a special case. Refugees are important to demonstrate that the USA is a responsible world leader, among other publicity benefits. The simple task of accepting refugees itself benefits the USA.
What's the difference between an undocumented immigrant and a refugee?

(hint: The answer is 'one involves more paperwork')

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:13 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Refugees are a special case. Refugees are important to demonstrate that the USA is a responsible world leader, among other publicity benefits. The simple task of accepting refugees itself benefits the USA.
What's the difference between an undocumented immigrant and a refugee?

(hint: The answer is 'one involves more paperwork')


Indeed. The paperwork ensures that they aren't enemies of the USA (ex: anti-ISIS vetting) or Gang-Members chasing after say... other refugees. Are you familiar with how those drug lords work on our Southern border?

Fact: The Drug Lords are in fact scared of the US Border patrol and are disinterested in violently entering the USA. Open up the border and let everyone in... things would change. They do their violent ways south of the border. And while border towns do have some degree of gang violence, the further into the US you go, the lower the chances of border gang wars.

------------

And yeah, I'm well aware that most Mexicans aren't in a drug gang. That doesn't change the fact that there are threats to our security (and the security of immigrants / refugees fleeing those crime-ridden areas).
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:14 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Then lets call them uneducated immigrants. Those with less than a high school diploma or equivalent. In any case, these (would-be) immigrants have a very low chance of positively affecting the USA.
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I'm not trying to be an asshole here; I'm just trying to figure out your moral compass. Like, do you seriously think the US should only do things when they positively affect the USA?

I usually try not to pull this card, but seriously: WWJD?

"Yeah, we could take these immigrants in, but... y'know, after I crunched the numbers -- I think doing so might decrease our GDP by half a point."

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:16 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I'm not trying to be an asshole here; I'm just trying to figure out your moral compass. Like, do you seriously think the US should only do things when they positively affect the USA?


We in general? No.

The US as in "the US Government who is paid for and sponsored by the tax dollars of the US Citizens" ?? Fuck yes. We're paying for that shit. And if you fail to pay taxes to the US Government, your wages are garnished and potentially put into jail. So really, the actions of the US Government must be self-serving... at very least. The citizens who disagree with our viewpoints deserve that much at least.

The moral compass of the US Government needs to be different than the moral compass of individuals.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:16 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Then lets call them uneducated immigrants. Those with less than a high school diploma or equivalent. In any case, these (would-be) immigrants have a very low chance of positively affecting the USA.

That strikes me, and probably a lot of people here, as incredibly cruel.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:20 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:We in general? No.

The US as in "the US Government who is paid for and sponsored by the tax dollars of the US Citizens" ?? Fuck yes. We're paying for that shit. And if you fail to pay taxes to the US Government, your wages are garnished and potentially put into jail. So really, the actions of the US Government must be self-serving... at very least. The citizens who disagree with our viewpoints deserve that much at least.

The moral compass of the US Government needs to be different than the moral compass of individuals.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:22 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Refugees are a special case. Refugees are important to demonstrate that the USA is a responsible world leader, among other publicity benefits. The simple task of accepting refugees itself benefits the USA. It seems like refugee's experience with losing a home gives them a unique experience that often leads to good citizenship in general, so I'm of the opinion that Refugees seem to be beneficial to the USA... in the general case.


Taking responsibility? The US is largely responsible for the poor economic conditions of Latin America. We have exploited them for decades and they are suffering because of us, for our benefit, and then we have the nerve to blame them for our problems! Taking responsibility would be taking in people from those countries, and helping them fix their economies. Instead, we will continue to exploit them because there will be consequences.

KnightExemplar wrote:As for your opinion, I strongly disagree with it. There are immigrants who can help the country, there are immigrants who will not. And while conservatives overstate the effect of illegal-drug dealers... I will for a fact mention that MS-13 was active at my high school. So it may be overstated by Republicans, but there are certainly immigrants who can harm the USA.


Should we kick out all citizens who can harm the US? What makes a person who was born here better than someone who wasn't? The reason MS-13 exists is because soldiers fleeing from their country had nowhere else to go, so they came here and found themselves in poverty and felt that there were no other options. You fix the poverty, fix the inequality, you don't have the conditions that allows gangs to recruit in the first place, and they all die out.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:25 pm UTC

Liri wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Then lets call them uneducated immigrants. Those with less than a high school diploma or equivalent. In any case, these (would-be) immigrants have a very low chance of positively affecting the USA.

That strikes me, and probably a lot of people here, as incredibly cruel.


The world is cruel sometimes.

The issue is, do we let them in when our unskilled / low-skilled labor categories are literally disappearing? I think there's a potential counter-argument that maybe unskilled workers are useful as farm laborers as a means of evading the minimum-wage. If we don't have much prosperity (within the unskilled labor category) to offer to our own citizens, why would be trying to offer prosperity to outsiders?

Thesh wrote:The reason MS-13 exists is because soldiers fleeing from their country had nowhere else to go, so they came here and found themselves in poverty and felt that there were no other options. You fix the poverty, fix the inequality, you don't have the conditions that allows gangs to recruit in the first place, and they all die out.


Seems like a way to fix the poverty was maybe not letting them in the first place. The USA shouldn't be the one to fix Mexico or Columbia's problems. I can agree that the US had some shitty foreign policy through the 1960s and 1970s if it makes you feel any better, but that doesn't change the state of the situation in today's world.

Sometimes the US makes mistakes. That doesn't mean its always our responsibility to fix every problem in every corner of the world.

------

And once more, I need to emphasize that I fully understand that the drug lords and gang-members are a minority of South-American immigrants. That doesn't change the fact that they exist and the drug gangs need to be a consideration as part of our National Security posture.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:28 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Seems like a way to fix the poverty was maybe not letting them in the first place.


And the US had absolutely no responsibility for the situation in El Salvador?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Quantized » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:29 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Then lets call them uneducated immigrants. Those with less than a high school diploma or equivalent. In any case, these (would-be) immigrants have a very low chance of positively affecting the USA.


I have no wish to be antagonistic, but I personally think that the second we begin viewing people as commodities and measure them according to how they will be profitable, is the second we will be on a very, very dangerous path. People should be viewed and judged based on the fact that they are people, not market stocks. Once we begin to refuse people based on them not being profitable to us, we will begin to lose our humanity. Just my opinion.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:30 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:The world is cruel sometimes.
No, the world is merely indifferent; the people in it are sometimes cruel.

It's pretty easy to tell which ones. They'll try to blame the world for their cruelty.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:34 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Seems like a way to fix the poverty was maybe not letting them in the first place.


And the US had absolutely no responsibility for the situation in El Salvador?


To be honest with you, my experience with modern Central American history is lacking and I'm uncomfortable discussing specifics.

My general understanding is that the US supported some regimes and dictators across the Central American region and South American regions, leading to conditions ripe for civil war, drug violence and gangs. I can't tell you specifics however since this is mostly 2nd hand knowledge from discussions amongst my friends. I have no formal training / study at all.

The Great Hippo wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:The world is cruel sometimes.
No, the world is merely indifferent; the people in it can be cruel.

It's pretty easy to tell which people; they're usually the ones who try to blame the world for their cruelty.


The natural state of the world includes Lions eating the children of their rivals. Humans and modern society are far less shitty than the natural world and you know it.

But please, what do you expect will happen when unskilled immigrants enter the US? Low English speaking skills, less than high-school diploma. I know that there are always cases of people who pull themselves out of those kinds of disadvantages... but such stories are rare compared to the typical.

Quantized wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Then lets call them uneducated immigrants. Those with less than a high school diploma or equivalent. In any case, these (would-be) immigrants have a very low chance of positively affecting the USA.


I have no wish to be antagonistic, but I personally think that the second we begin viewing people as commodities and measure them according to how they will be profitable, is the second we will be on a very, very dangerous path. People should be viewed and judged based on the fact that they are people, not market stocks. Once we begin to refuse people based on them not being profitable to us, we will begin to lose our humanity. Just my opinion.


Its better than not having any policy at all.

At first, we must write down policy. Only after policy has been written down can we debate and otherwise improve upon it. We in the USA have the diversity lottery as a mechanism to randomly include individuals for pure sake of diversity (because we all can agree that a degree of diversity is beneficial)
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:40 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:But please, what do you expect will happen when unskilled immigrants enter the US? Low English speaking skills, less than high-school diploma. I know that there are always cases of people who pull themselves out of those kinds of disadvantages... but such stories are rare compared to the typical.
I dunno. What's happened every time we've let wave after wave of disadvantaged immigrants into the US?

Oh, right; they've built the fucking country.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Quantized » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:40 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:The natural state of the world includes Lions eating the children of their rivals. Humans and modern society are far less shitty than the natural world and you know it.

But please, what do you expect will happen when unskilled immigrants enter the US? Low English speaking skills, less than high-school diploma. I know that there are always cases of people who pull themselves out of those kinds of disadvantages... but such stories are rare compared to the typical.


Ok, first off, lions don't COMMIT GENOCIDE, unless I am missing a very important piece of lion history. Humanity has done some of the most twisted things in nature; some species eat the young of others. We designed ways to murder millions from far away so we can avoid the emotional attachment. I could keep going on that, but my second point is that people come here to become better as people and to learn. If we refuse them the opportunity to come here and grow, we are perpetrating the lack of education. If a school said "we don't take uneducated people", everyone would say that was dumb. This country is a school. We have to let the students learn.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:42 pm UTC

Cruelty is okay when it keeps out the poor Mexican farmhand (which farmers in the US say they will desperately miss), but not when your cousins get denied entry?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:44 pm UTC

Liri wrote:Cruelty is okay when it keeps out the poor Mexican farmhand (which farmers in the US say they will desperately miss), but not when your cousins get denied entry?


How about this answer: "Neither is cruel". The only cruelty is if one gets treated better than the other.

The amount of false dichotomies in this discussion is outstanding.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:45 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:My general understanding is that the US supported some regimes and dictators across the Central American region and South American regions, leading to conditions ripe for civil war, drug violence and gangs. I can't tell you specifics however since this is mostly 2nd hand knowledge from discussions amongst my friends. I have no formal training / study at all.


In this case the US backed a military dictatorship that targeted civilians, providing them with equipment and training, and MS-13 resulted from the civil war that the US bears huge responsibility for. Yes, we do have a responsibility to take them in and help them, not just say "Fuck you, you're good enough for our bullets, not for our land."
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:48 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:My general understanding is that the US supported some regimes and dictators across the Central American region and South American regions, leading to conditions ripe for civil war, drug violence and gangs. I can't tell you specifics however since this is mostly 2nd hand knowledge from discussions amongst my friends. I have no formal training / study at all.


In this case the US backed a military dictatorship that targeted civilians, providing them with equipment and training, and MS-13 resulted from the civil war that the US bears huge responsibility for. Yes, we do have a responsibility to take them in and help them, not just say "Fuck you, you're good enough for our bullets, not for our land."


Then maybe in the future, we'll have to make better foreign policy decisions. I'm still not quite sure how this logic train results in the conclusion of "lets open up our borders".

Especially when the sob stories of Iraqi (trying to be immigrants) are being denied entry, despite "selling out" to support the US Military and becoming a pariah inside of their community.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:50 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:And once more, I need to emphasize that I fully understand that the drug lords and gang-members are a minority of South-American immigrants. That doesn't change the fact that they exist and the drug gangs need to be a consideration as part of our National Security posture.


accurate, and if we wanted to change problems with violence re: drug cartels we'd be looking at amending prohibition policy, not tightening immigration restrictions.

statistically speaking crime in undocumented immigrant populations isn't, actually, a significant problem, so if your concern is in fact the drug cartels rather than drumming up unwarranted fear of brown people, hand-wringing about undocumented immigration rather than examining the drug prohibition policies that increase this cycle of violence is not going to affect issues with drug lords and gang members.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:51 pm UTC

natraj wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:And once more, I need to emphasize that I fully understand that the drug lords and gang-members are a minority of South-American immigrants. That doesn't change the fact that they exist and the drug gangs need to be a consideration as part of our National Security posture.


accurate, and if we wanted to change problems with violence re: drug cartels we'd be looking at amending prohibition policy, not tightening immigration restrictions.

statistically speaking crime in undocumented immigrant populations isn't, actually, a significant problem, so if your concern is in fact the drug cartels rather than drumming up unwarranted fear of brown people, hand-wringing about undocumented immigration rather than examining the drug prohibition policies that increase this cycle of violence is not going to affect issues with drug lords and gang members.


I think my main "problem" with illegal immigration is the fact that its unfair to other countries. Any forgiveness policy is disproportionally going to benefit Canadians, south American and central American immigrants over Asian, Middle Eastern, Indian, European, and African immigrants (unless those immigrants go to Mexico and then hop the border)

Beyond that, I can agree to the enforcement regime employed vs say... the Asian immigration community (focusing on Nurses and Engineers) because Nurses and Engineers have a higher chance of being beneficial / useful to this country than unskilled labor categories.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:54 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Then maybe in the future, we'll have to make better foreign policy decisions. I'm still not quite sure how this logic train results in the conclusion of "lets open up our borders".


Sorry, I forgot, personal responsibility is only a thing that poor people have to do. Seriously, given how callous and indifferent you are to others simply because of something as simple as where they were born, and you wonder why people label Republicans as racists.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:56 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:But please, what do you expect will happen when unskilled immigrants enter the US? Low English speaking skills, less than high-school diploma. I know that there are always cases of people who pull themselves out of those kinds of disadvantages... but such stories are rare compared to the typical.
I dunno. What's happened every time we've let wave after wave of disadvantaged immigrants into the US?

Oh, right; they've built the fucking country.


Easier to do that when there's a major manufacturing boon throughout an entire fucking century. Aside from the Great Depression, the century from 1870s through 1970s benefited from an influx of unskilled labor.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:57 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Then maybe in the future, we'll have to make better foreign policy decisions. I'm still not quite sure how this logic train results in the conclusion of "lets open up our borders".


Sorry, I forgot, personal responsibility is only a thing that poor people have to do. Seriously, given how callous and indifferent you are to others simply because of something as simple as where they were born, and you wonder why people label Republicans as racists.


So now I hate poor people because I wasn't alive (or otherwise in a position) to make foreign policy decisions 40 years ago?

And you wonder why I think that liberals jump for the "racist" argument too quickly.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Quantized » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:57 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Beyond that, I can agree to the enforcement regime employed vs say... the Asian immigration community (focusing on Nurses and Engineers) because Nurses and Engineers have a higher chance of being beneficial / useful to this country than unskilled labor categories.


I think that the major problem with this (in my eyes) is that if people can't get engineering or nursing degrees where they come from then why should we say "screw you"? Let them come, make it easier to come, stop punishing them for coming, and let them bloody learn and grow. That's the principle this country was founded on, and it's one we seem to be losing sight of.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:59 pm UTC

Quantized wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Beyond that, I can agree to the enforcement regime employed vs say... the Asian immigration community (focusing on Nurses and Engineers) because Nurses and Engineers have a higher chance of being beneficial / useful to this country than unskilled labor categories.


I think that the major problem with this (in my eyes) is that if people can't get engineering or nursing degrees where they come from then why should we say "screw you"? Let them come, make it easier to come, stop punishing them for coming, and let them bloody learn and grow. That's the principle this country was founded on, and it's one we seem to be losing sight of.


Do you realize how dirt poor the Philippines is?

You're not going to beat the sob stories of my home country on this one. Drugs, violence, corruption. Hell, the country is so poor that one of the major political issues is whether or not to allow poor people to dig in the garbage dumps for resources. (Pros: it gets resources and efficiency. Cons: it looks bad, it's a dead-end job, and people get sick / diseases from such work).

But that's what you do. You get an engineering or nursing degree in the Phillippines and then go for the lottery and try to get into the USA. Poor countries still have universities and education systems. Immigrants aren't stupid ya know. Just because they ain't white doesn't mean they lack the ability to gain an education.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:02 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:So now I hate poor people because I wasn't alive (or otherwise in a position) to make foreign policy decisions 40 years ago?


But you are perfectly happy to benefit from it while telling others "fuck you, I've got mine" while ignoring that we have a responsibility to the victims of our actions, because you don't have to care because you personally were not involved.
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