Trump presidency

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sardia
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:28 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
mcd001 wrote:So, permit me to explain: As a long-time republican voter, I became more and more disillusioned by the republican politicians that I voted for, based on what they said they would do while campaigning versus what they actually did once elected. Government spending continued to escalate despite decades of republican campaign promises to rein it in, and it didn't seem to matter which party controlled the White House or Congress (it'll be my kids left holding the bag). Same with illegal immigration; it continued unchecked by either party with middle and lower-class Americans getting the bill, while politicians (of both parties) and their donors reaped the benefits. Not to mention the abuses of legal immigration laws such as H1B visas. I believe that voter unhappiness with our lax enforcement of immigration laws is the single biggest reason that Trump was elected. When Trump said he would put America first, that phrase resonated with voters who were comparing Trump to mainstream politicians that put the wishes of their supporters and donors ahead of the voter. That phrase resonated with voters who were tired of being told that floods of immigrants and refugees coming into their communities were good for them, when the evidence of their eyes told them the exact opposite.
I can certainly see how Trump provides a response to increasingly out-of-touch politicians -- and a political system that alienates the very people it claims to empower. I also can sympathize with Republican voters who feel a sense of disillusionment with their party; I think there's plenty of that on both sides of the political spectrum.

I find it strange to think of Trump's support as a direct result of the illegal immigration crisis, though -- largely because it scarcely seems like a crisis at all. Illegal immigrants are far less likely to commit violent crimes (or even be incarcerated, for that matter). You could argue that illegal immigrants create an undue burden on our economic system (through entitlement programs, so on), but only if you ignore the fact that a significant majority of them actually work 'legally' -- and therefore pay taxes, funding those very same programs (and contributing to our economic health). Meanwhile, out of the six states with the highest number of illegal immigrants, only two of those states went to Trump -- Texas and Florida. New York, New Jersey, Illinois, and California (which has the highest illegal immigrant population -- at 2.3 million) all went to Hillary. If Trump is a response to frustrations over a flood of illegal immigrants, wouldn't you expect to see something different?

While I do think Trump's hard-line stance on illegal immigration was part of his success, I'm wary of pointing to it as the primary reason behind that success -- partly because the demographics don't bare it out, but also because illegal immigration isn't really our biggest problem. Our justice system is fundamentally broken; our education system is in shambles -- our infrastructure is crumbling. Worrying about the crisis of illegal immigration is kind of like worrying about the crisis of 'pot-smoking'; yes, it's against the law, but it's certainly not the problem people are making it out to be.

I mean, if the reason Trump won is because the majority of our population is more concerned with illegal immigration than shit like for-profit prisons... then the problem isn't Trump; the problem is the majority of our population has seriously skewed priorities.

Hippo, you're looking at this from the wrong area. You need to peruse Foxnews and see what the conservative audience is seeing. It's all violence, hot women, and persecution of christians by gays.
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We haven't even gotten to Breitbart and conservative talk radio. There it's all news about whites being persecuted, and denials of Trump's Russia connections. It's an untethered worldview, but a worldview that has millions of followers who are in charge.
Last edited by sardia on Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:32 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:31 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Take my anti-immigration uncle for instance. Erm... the not racist one. He's a fishing guide, got a boat and heads out a mile or two into the ocean often to fish. His primary complaint about immigrants is that with a lower-ability to speak English, as well as what seems to be a lower-level of zeal to actually integrate into American culture (and more importantly: boating culture)... the immigrants seem to be at higher-risk of hurting themselves or even dying on the water. (Unaware of incoming storms, poor boating culture, etc. etc.)

Its one thing when you see dumbasses on the water. But if they speak English, you can always say "Yo, a storms coming in. Get to land immediately." You can scold the dumbasses and otherwise communicate with them.

But if they don't speak English? And they don't understand the danger that's coming in? Well... then... things get a lot more dangerous for everybody. This is a particularly extreme example (and IIRC, he's worried that the deaths he saw in the newspapers were those people...) but simpler examples include the finer details of boating. IE: Backing your boat into the water, and other such rituals that can royally fuck things up if you do them incorrectly. I don't really recall what the issue was with that example, aside from again... my uncle coming to meet the boating newbies only to be aghast at their inability to speak and/or understand English.

There was a time when immigrants who came into the USA would change their names to better suit America. Ironically, Drumpf -> Trump is a good example of such an immigrant name change. Such demonstrates the dedication of previous immigrants to integrate into the local culture. However, the modern liberal ignores the practicalities of day-to-day working relationships with people of vastly different cultures... and even goes as far to diminish the legitimacy of local culture!

Whether or not you agree with my anti-immigration fishing uncle, you have to admit that this "Not speak English" problem is indeed a real problem. Even if its a small one. This isn't some hypothetical situation, its a serious communication issue that is going on right now... with the large number of non-English speaking immigrants around. And sometimes, local culture (ie: boating culture) exists and is an established norm for the safety of everybody involved.


But the problem that you're describing is true of legal immigrants as illegal ones. Arguably moreso, since illegal immigrants are generally lower [edit]income[/edit] people and probably don't have the money to invest in an expense hobby like boating. The legal immigration system is generally set up to capture higher net worth individuals, who are much more likely to be able to participate in these sorts of hobbies. You don't need to pass an English test to get a green card, so conceivably you could be in the United States for years, if not decades, without ever having to learn the language if you felt so inclined. Learning a language is difficult and takes a long time... even a legal immigrant who is really trying to learn is still probably going to take several years to be fluent.
Last edited by LaserGuy on Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:52 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dark567 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:33 pm UTC

I think if you look at what is driving the right wing around the world, immigration seems to be a huge part of that. Sure a lot of Trumps supporters probably just in general overlap with GOP voters, but I think it is clear that immigration is the main reason for this populist uprising we are seeing around the world. That includes Trump.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:48 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Take my anti-immigration uncle for instance. Erm... the not racist one. He's a fishing guide, got a boat and heads out a mile or two into the ocean often to fish. His primary complaint about immigrants is that with a lower-ability to speak English, as well as what seems to be a lower-level of zeal to actually integrate into American culture (and more importantly: boating culture)... the immigrants seem to be at higher-risk of hurting themselves or even dying on the water. (Unaware of incoming storms, poor boating culture, etc. etc.)

Its one thing when you see dumbasses on the water. But if they speak English, you can always say "Yo, a storms coming in. Get to land immediately." You can scold the dumbasses and otherwise communicate with them.

But if they don't speak English? And they don't understand the danger that's coming in? Well... then... things get a lot more dangerous for everybody. This is a particularly extreme example (and IIRC, he's worried that the deaths he saw in the newspapers were those people...) but simpler examples include the finer details of boating. IE: Backing your boat into the water, and other such rituals that can royally fuck things up if you do them incorrectly. I don't really recall what the issue was with that example, aside from again... my uncle coming to meet the boating newbies only to be aghast at their inability to speak and/or understand English.

There was a time when immigrants who came into the USA would change their names to better suit America. Ironically, Drumpf -> Trump is a good example of such an immigrant name change. Such demonstrates the dedication of previous immigrants to integrate into the local culture. However, the modern liberal ignores the practicalities of day-to-day working relationships with people of vastly different cultures... and even goes as far to diminish the legitimacy of local culture!

Whether or not you agree with my anti-immigration fishing uncle, you have to admit that this "Not speak English" problem is indeed a real problem. Even if its a small one. This isn't some hypothetical situation, its a serious communication issue that is going on right now... with the large number of non-English speaking immigrants around. And sometimes, local culture (ie: boating culture) exists and is an established norm for the safety of everybody involved.


But the problem that you're describing is true of legal immigrants as illegal ones. Arguably moreso, since illegal immigrants are enerally lower people and probably don't have the money to invest in an expense hobby like boating. The legal immigration system is generally set up to capture higher net worth individuals, who are much more likely to be able to participate in these sorts of hobbies. You don't need to pass an English test to get a green card, so conceivably you could be in the United States for years, if not decades, without ever having to learn the language if you felt so inclined. Learning a language is difficult and takes a long time... even a legal immigrant who is really trying to learn is still probably going to take several years to be fluent.


Fair point. But its still one of the more legitimate issues that divide Republicans vs Democrats.

There's a lot of people here who seems to think that the illegal immigration issue simply boils down to racism. And sure, while there are certainly a lot of racists out there, there are plenty of people with a more sane worldview and are more concerned about "preserving local culture and heritage".

I've talked to white-nationalists online before. I know how they work and their keywords. The greater anti-immigration group is broader than that however and includes other concepts and ideas. That's all I wish to bring forward. A lot of liberals I talk to seem like the words of "heritage" always boils down to a dog-whistle for racism. Well... it doesn't. Its more complicated than "just racism".

I think that in general, I can call Democrats to be on the side of globalists, while the new Trumpian-Republican Party is trying to fight globalism.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:16 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:One vote is one vote. They determine the future of our country as much as your vote or my vote. I don't think its helpful to consider them to have "skewed priorities".
If I cared more about the corrosive effects of pot than I did crack-cocaine or meth -- if, in fact, I pushed to create an entire new class of laws that punished anyone caught with a bag of weed with life imprisonment -- would it be fair to say that I have 'skewed priorities'?

Weed isn't a big deal. It's illegal, but it doesn't actually destroy anyone's life -- well, check that. It can destroy lives, because it's so illegal -- because we treat it with such contempt. But there's nothing actually inherently dangerous about weed.

There's also nothing inherently dangerous about illegal immigrants.
KnightExemplar wrote:But if they don't speak English? And they don't understand the danger that's coming in? Well... then... things get a lot more dangerous for everybody. This is a particularly extreme example (and IIRC, he's worried that the deaths he saw in the newspapers were those people...) but simpler examples include the finer details of boating. IE: Backing your boat into the water, and other such rituals that can royally fuck things up if you do them incorrectly. I don't really recall what the issue was with that example, aside from again... my uncle coming to meet the boating newbies only to be aghast at their inability to speak and/or understand English.
We've been dealing with people not speaking English in the United States for over two centuries. The rest of the world has been dealing with it for thousands upon thousands of years. Somehow, society has persevered. We'll cope.
KnightExemplar wrote:There was a time when immigrants who came into the USA would change their names to better suit America. Ironically, Drumpf -> Trump is a good example of such an immigrant name change. Such demonstrates the dedication of previous immigrants to integrate into the local culture. However, the modern liberal ignores the practicalities of day-to-day working relationships with people of vastly different cultures... and even goes as far to diminish the legitimacy of local culture!
There are times when immigrants change their names to avoid discrimination, violence, or persecution. See World War I anti-German hysteria; see 'NINA' (No Irish Need Apply); see... basically America's entire checkered past re: immigration.

I'm sure some immigrants change their names just because they don't like them, or because they want a fresh start. I'm also sure some immigrants change their names because it significantly decreases the likelihood of being turned down for a job, arrested, or even killed. Immigrants changing their last names upon arriving in America does not demonstrate their dedication to 'fitting in'; it demonstrates our dedication to making them fit in.
KnightExemplar wrote:Whether or not you agree with my anti-immigration fishing uncle, you have to admit that this "Not speak English" problem is indeed a real problem. Even if its a small one. This isn't some hypothetical situation, its a serious communication issue that is going on right now... with the large number of non-English speaking immigrants around. And sometimes, local culture (ie: boating culture) exists and is an established norm for the safety of everybody involved.
India has over twenty official languages. If someone there can figure out how to run a boat club without anyone getting hurt, I'm pretty sure your uncle can do it.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:50 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:I think if you look at what is driving the right wing around the world, immigration seems to be a huge part of that. Sure a lot of Trumps supporters probably just in general overlap with GOP voters, but I think it is clear that immigration is the main reason for this populist uprising we are seeing around the world. That includes Trump.


Immigration, illegal or otherwise, is an easy target though. You get to blame it for all your ills (more crime, less jobs, higher taxes etc) because it's something people can inherently get behind, even if the numbers show that all those points are not true. People are very willing to accept the people from the out group are the problem and people not initially from your country fill that role very well. Through the Trump election and Brexit we saw a large upswing in how facts don't seem to matter. But these are just the latest and largest examples of such. Politicians have been railing against immigration for ages. None of it is fact based, but it gets votes, so it will continue to be used.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:18 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Immigration, illegal or otherwise, is an easy target though. You get to blame it for all your ills (more crime, less jobs, higher taxes etc) because it's something people can inherently get behind, even if the numbers show that all those points are not true. People are very willing to accept the people from the out group are the problem and people not initially from your country fill that role very well. Through the Trump election and Brexit we saw a large upswing in how facts don't seem to matter. But these are just the latest and largest examples of such. Politicians have been railing against immigration for ages. None of it is fact based, but it gets votes, so it will continue to be used.
I resist the idea that Trump is a direct product of our attitudes regarding immigration (illegal or otherwise) because if correct, it means Trump is a direct product of voter ignorance.

That makes it really hard to talk to Trump supporters -- to address their issues, to respect their beliefs, to support their values. Like, I know Trump was elected because people are angry and frustrated; I know the people who are angry and frustrated have plenty of excellent reasons to be angry and frustrated. But if they tell me "I'm angry and frustrated because illegal immigrants are destroying this country", I don't know where to go from there.

Like... don't you want to talk about things like government collusion with the financial sector? Wall Street's abhorrent and fraudulent behavior? Gerrymandering? Voter suppression? Privatized prisons? Health care reform? --no? You want... to talk about... the non-existent crisis of illegal immigration. That's what you're angry about.

Watching Trump's election has been surreal. It's like watching a man in a burning house: Frustrated and desperate, he calls in an arsonist to help. When you ask him why, he tells you there's a bunch of rats in his basement; the arsonist will light a fire and clear them out.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:31 pm UTC

That's a bad metaphor because you don't address why the house is on fire. He lost his house because of the trade deals that brought cheap goods which burned down his job. It's still the Republicans fault but now with more complicitness from corporate Democrats.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:03 pm UTC

sardia wrote:That's a bad metaphor because you don't address why the house is on fire. He lost his house because of the trade deals that brought cheap goods which burned down his job. It's still the Republicans fault but now with more complicitness from corporate Democrats.
That sounds like a pretty big oversimplification? There's a lot of reasons why the guy's house might be on fire -- and some of the biggest ones don't have much to do with Republicans or Democrats.

I think that sentiment -- "This is X party's fault!" -- played a big role into getting us into this mess. I certainly don't think Democrats and Republicans are equivalent; if pressed to choose between them, I would (with deep reluctance) choose Democrat. That being said, tribalism -- the idea that this is a conflict between a right-side and a wrong-side, rather than a struggle between people just trying to find a way to co-exist -- is a very Trump-ish sentiment. It's what he's been selling us: There are the righteous few and the ignorant many -- good guys and bad guys -- winners and losers. Trump is a winner. Vote for him, and you'll be one too.

I have this tiny, completely absurd fantasy that eventually, Trump will pull an Ozymandias: He will be so bad, so terrible, so horrible that Democrats and Republicans will unite together and say: "Holy shit, yeah, no, fuck this noise, we need to put aside our differences and stop this fucking nonsense".

(I am fully aware this will never happen. That's one of the scary things about Trump: He keeps proving that the bar for what we'll tolerate in politics is far lower than I imagined.)
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:10 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I resist the idea that Trump is a direct product of our attitudes regarding immigration (illegal or otherwise) because if correct, it means Trump is a direct product of voter ignorance.

That makes it really hard to talk to Trump supporters -- to address their issues, to respect their beliefs, to support their values. Like, I know Trump was elected because people are angry and frustrated; I know the people who are angry and frustrated have plenty of excellent reasons to be angry and frustrated. But if they tell me "I'm angry and frustrated because illegal immigrants are destroying this country", I don't know where to go from there.


It's may not be the primary reason for some, or even most, but there are definitely people who are ignorantly blaming immigrants for their woes. Manufacturing is not coming back the way it was back in the day. Automation got rid of that as much as globalization did. Promising to bring it back, along with bringing back coal mining and the like is just playing to ignorance. Sure Trump isn't solely a product of voter ignorance but it certainly played a role there.

Like... don't you want to talk about things like government collusion with the financial sector? Wall Street's abhorrent and fraudulent behavior? Gerrymandering? Voter suppression? Privatized prisons? Health care reform? --no? You want... to talk about... the non-existent crisis of illegal immigration. That's what you're angry about.


Until another crash comes around and is fresh in people's minds, all of that stuff is abstract and not in their face. Voter suppression and privatized prisons? Doesn't affect most people's everyday lives so they ignore it. Health care reform? Sure people want that but at the moment they just see the flaws in the current system. And Trump promised to fix that which ended up being a pretty big lie. So once again ignorance. I mean the promise was to make sure everyone stayed insured, for cheaper and there would be no mandate, yet all the restrictions that came with The Affordable Care Act (notably pre-existing conditions) would remain. Can you call it anything but ignorance to fall for that and somehow believe it will work? I mean the only reasonable way to do that is to have fully government funded healthcare, but that's socialism and socialism is bad because of the cold war. Just more ignorance.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:09 pm UTC

There's also nothing inherently dangerous about illegal immigrants.


Its funny that government action to determine what kinds of health care plans are legal and illegal is fine and dandy, but government action to decide who is let into the country or let out is not. At the end of the day, these are laws and policies to debate. Its not necessarily about dangerous immigrants, the core argument is far more about being a nation of laws, and what to do with people who are admittingly breaking the law.

IE: Expired Visas. People make an agreement. They sign the papers saying "I'll stay in the country for X months"... for a job, or for pleasure, or whatever. And then they don't uphold their end of the bargain. Either through laziness (i've seen it), or through frustration with the immigration system. Doesn't really matter in any case, they are now staying without a Visa or Green Card. In some cases, maybe they've entirely avoided the system by jumping the southern-border and seeking sanctuary cities.

Is there any form of immigration control you would be fine with? Or should we just destroy the entire Visa system and completely open up the border? I'll tell you something: it is utterly unfair for Asian families to spend fucking years through bureaucratic bullshit while those who cross the southern border outside the immigration system might get a free pass. I have cousins who are effectively barred from the US because they slipped up on their Visas for just a month or two.

These cousins of mine may never have a chance to see the USA ever again. That's how it works. You get booted to the back of the line of a very busy and overworked immigration system.

KnightExemplar wrote:But if they don't speak English? And they don't understand the danger that's coming in? Well... then... things get a lot more dangerous for everybody. This is a particularly extreme example (and IIRC, he's worried that the deaths he saw in the newspapers were those people...) but simpler examples include the finer details of boating. IE: Backing your boat into the water, and other such rituals that can royally fuck things up if you do them incorrectly. I don't really recall what the issue was with that example, aside from again... my uncle coming to meet the boating newbies only to be aghast at their inability to speak and/or understand English.
We've been dealing with people not speaking English in the United States for over two centuries.


The United States is a big place. Think local. This is certainly not the case in the local towns that this Uncle is in. I do think that people living in a town do deserve some say in the growth and development of the city they live in.

Unfortunately for the town, my state has effectively passed a "Dreamer" bill. So... illegal immigrants know that our state is "safe" for them. True, "Dreamer" bills are great for showing that a state is open and welcoming to immigrants, but it also means attracting illegal immigrants from across the country. Its a double-edged sword.

KnightExemplar wrote:There was a time when immigrants who came into the USA would change their names to better suit America. Ironically, Drumpf -> Trump is a good example of such an immigrant name change. Such demonstrates the dedication of previous immigrants to integrate into the local culture. However, the modern liberal ignores the practicalities of day-to-day working relationships with people of vastly different cultures... and even goes as far to diminish the legitimacy of local culture!
There are times when immigrants change their names to avoid discrimination, violence, or persecution. See World War I anti-German hysteria; see 'NINA' (No Irish Need Apply); see... basically America's entire checkered past re: immigration.

I'm sure some immigrants change their names just because they don't like them, or because they want a fresh start. I'm also sure some immigrants change their names because it significantly decreases the likelihood of being turned down for a job, arrested, or even killed. Immigrants changing their last names upon arriving in America does not demonstrate their dedication to 'fitting in'; it demonstrates our dedication to making them fit in.


Fair point. So, would you rather have immigrants fit into this country? Or do you just want everybody to come in? Do you honestly see no value in a system that favors proper integration into our culture?

Take Asian immigrants. The easiest way for Asians to enter the USA is to get a job visa for Nursing or Child Care. These immigrants fix our broken health care system and the skyrocketing cost of child care by providing more labor to our country... in the sectors which need more labor. Unlike other immigrants, Asian immigrants have no border to hop across, the only "illegals" are the ones who overstay their Visa.

Through the immigration system, we can determine the labor categories that are being unfilled within our country, and compensate for it through immigration policy. That's fucking useful. It leads to incremental improvements to our society. And before anybody complains about closed borders or whatever... the USA is BY FAR the largest importer of immigrants (although IIRC, Britain may lead us in per-capita. But USA is also very high in per-capita acceptance of immigrants). So its not like our system is "closed" by any stretch of the imagination.

----------------

In any case, when a H1B Asian immigrant comes in with a Nursing job, we know exactly what role in society the immigrant will play. We can prioritize engineers from India, or Nurses from Thailand.

Illegal immigrants? We don't have any controls. Period. Completely uncontrolled.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:34 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Do you honestly see no value in a system that favors proper integration into our culture?


Government has absolutely no fucking right to force a culture on anyone. It's none of their business.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:36 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Do you honestly see no value in a system that favors proper integration into our culture?


Government has absolutely no fucking right to force a culture on anyone. It's none of their business.


And people have no right to enter a country without said government's permission.

Beyond that, it is entirely within the self-interest of a government entity to ensure good culture is imported through the borders. Or do you suggest that its not useful? The immigration system serves the country, not the other way around. We are to design an immigration system that betters our country in every way possible.

I'm mostly a supporter of immigration: I'd prefer it if we got more Syrian refugees for example (the USA should shoulder some of the responsibility that Europe is shouldering). But regardless, the #1 issue at hand is having the system working so that we even have the ability to make these kinds of decisions.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:46 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Its funny that government action to determine what kinds of health care plans are legal and illegal is fine and dandy, but government action to decide who is let into the country or let out is not. At the end of the day, these are laws and policies to debate. Its not necessarily about dangerous immigrants, the core argument is far more about being a nation of laws, and what to do with people who are admittingly breaking the law.
If your only argument against illegal immigration is that the law is the law, then that's your argument; it's not what I was responding to. I was only emphasizing that outside of the 'illegal' part, illegal immigrants are not actually a serious problem.
KnightExemplar wrote:The United States is a big place. Think local. This is certainly not the case in the local towns that this Uncle is in. I do think that people living in a town do deserve some say in the growth and development of the city they live in.
Call me a flaming liberal if you'd like, but I find it very difficult to conjure up much sympathy for someone who's argument against illegal immigrants can be summed up by "I should have a say in what languages my neighbor speaks".

But who knows; maybe I'm grossly underestimating the devastating effects of non-English speakers on a town's development and growth.

(PS: I'm not.)
KnightExemplar wrote:Fair point. So, would you rather have immigrants fit into this country? Or do you just want everybody to come in? Do you honestly see no value in a system that favors proper integration into our culture?
Of course I do. But you weren't talking about formalized systems that help immigrants integrate; you were talking about immigrants changing their last names, and acting like this was a demonstation of their conviction to America.
KnightExemplar wrote:Illegal immigrants? We don't have any controls. Period. Completely uncontrolled.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:46 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:And people have no right to enter a country without said government's permission.


That's what the law says, but I don't see the law as morally justifiable; closed borders just reinforce the global power imbalances that ensure global inequality in the first place. In fact, if this had been the policy all along there probably wouldn't be a as much immigration to begin with.

KnightExemplar wrote:Beyond that, it is entirely within the self-interest of a government entity to ensure good culture is imported through the borders.


So when has government enforcing culture ever not resulted in atrocities?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:47 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Thesh wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Do you honestly see no value in a system that favors proper integration into our culture?


Government has absolutely no fucking right to force a culture on anyone. It's none of their business.


And people have no right to enter a country without said government's permission.

Beyond that, it is entirely within the self-interest of a government entity to ensure good culture is imported through the borders. Or do you suggest that its not useful? The immigration system serves the country, not the other way around. We are to design an immigration system that betters our country in every way possible.

I'm mostly a supporter of immigration: I'd prefer it if we got more Syrian refugees for example (the USA should shoulder some of the responsibility that Europe is shouldering). But regardless, the #1 issue at hand is having the system working so that we even have the ability to make these kinds of decisions.

Why are you characterizing the decision to let many more immigrants in as giving up the ability to have a decision? If the government wants more immigrants, ie annexing Texas, it's justified.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:54 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Beyond that, it is entirely within the self-interest of a government entity to ensure good culture is imported through the borders.


So when has government enforcing culture ever not resulted in atrocities?


1970 USA, when my parents immigrated.

Last I checked, they had to pass a citizens exam, speak English. My Mom got ahead in line because she had a degree in Nursing.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:02 pm UTC

Your parents had to pass a citizen's exam to immigrate? I call bullshit.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:10 pm UTC

what? you have to pass a civics exam to naturalize. i remember helping my mom study for it when i was a kid. it's funny cuz i don't think many natural-born citizens could pass it it asks all kinds of questions about government that most people don't know, so the pretense that we expect immigrants to fit into society with this is nonsense it's not like we're demanding the same standards of citizens (nor do i think we should; as mentioned, that way lies atrocity). it's just an onerous hoop to jump through because we have unreasonable expectations of immigrants.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:18 pm UTC

natraj wrote:what? you have to pass a civics exam to naturalize. i remember helping my mom study for it when i was a kid. it's funny cuz i don't think many natural-born citizens could pass it it asks all kinds of questions about government that most people don't know, so the pretense that we expect immigrants to fit into society with this is nonsense it's not like we're demanding the same standards of citizens (nor do i think we should; as mentioned, that way lies atrocity). it's just an onerous hoop to jump through because we have unreasonable expectations of immigrants.


Last I checked, most citizens have to go through 12-years of school. Grades 1 through 12. Not everyone passes of course, but that's the general idea.

Learning about how to vote, the parties, some basic history (Who is George Washington and Lincoln), etc. etc. All very important parts of perpetuating the USA's culture.

Thesh wrote:Your parents had to pass a citizen's exam to immigrate? I call bullshit.


https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/na ... ation-test
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:20 pm UTC

You don't get your natural-born citizenship revoked if you fail high school US History.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:21 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Thesh wrote:Your parents had to pass a citizen's exam to immigrate? I call bullshit.


https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/na ... ation-test


That's for naturalization, not immigration.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:34 pm UTC

If I, as an American citizen, can feel strong discomfort with much of my country's past, present, and possible future, and speak out against that - but still appreciate the benefits living here confers - why can't an immigrant?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:47 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:
Thesh wrote:Your parents had to pass a citizen's exam to immigrate? I call bullshit.


https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/na ... ation-test


That's for naturalization, not immigration.


Then my parents passed it for naturalization. Sorry for being imprecise. In any case, do you want to continue your original claim? Or are you giving this up?

So when has government enforcing culture ever not resulted in atrocities?


Its hardly an atrocity that my parents had to learn English and pass a civics test to get voting rights and otherwise stay in the USA. Beyond that, the number of Visas are limited, on several basis (per country and whatnot). So the number of legal non-citizens in the USA is hard-capped.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:50 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Thesh wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:
Thesh wrote:Your parents had to pass a citizen's exam to immigrate? I call bullshit.


https://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/na ... ation-test


That's for naturalization, not immigration.


Then my parents passed it for naturalization. Sorry for being imprecise. In any case, do you want to continue your original claim? Or are you giving this up?

So when has government enforcing culture ever not resulted in atrocities?


Depends. Are you now suggesting we should make people go through the same requirements for immigration as for citizenship? If not, you no longer a point to respond to.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:54 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Weed isn't a big deal. It's illegal, but it doesn't actually destroy anyone's life -- well, check that. It can destroy lives, because it's so illegal -- because we treat it with such contempt. But there's nothing actually inherently dangerous about weed.
First thing you've said in this thread with which I've disagreed. I do think it's dangerous {font_size=2500}but{/font_size} I think research is needed to find out how dangerous and it being so very illegal stifles that very research. There are a host of other things in the way of that research, like the ethics board who might just have a problem with feeding unusally large doses of THC to pregnant women, the psychological difference between a randomly selected regular dose and a chosen and variable dose, the time scales potentially involved and so on. Even to test on rats would be an epic undertaking, and who's to say rats are a valid model for humans? Also, it's kind of hard to interview a rat (or be interviewed by a rat puppet, for anyone who remembers that TV show). Another obstacle is, again, because of the law: growing a vast amount of cannabis, harvesting vast amounts of it, purifying constituent chemicals and supplying them to rats for a few years would involve a really incredibly expensive security operation.

That said, I've been occasionally checking out how Portugal's doing and so far they do seem to have made the right choice.

Everyone knows someone who's "smoked weed loads of times and it's never done me any harm," but would someone who had nasty side-effects tell you about them as readily? What if it's a small fraction of the population that's at risk? Analogy: ten people you know have each taken a revolver, loaded six dummy rounds into it from a big sack, spun the cylinder, put the revolver to their heads and pulled the trigger, emptied the dummy rounds from the cylinder back into the sack and laid the revolver back on top of it, and for this each of them has been paid with one hundred (100) grams of good chocolate. Fancy it? No? Let another ten try it. Same results. Fancy it now? How many clicks on randomly-selected "dummy" rounds from that sack does it take to convince you that none of them's live? Not quite an apt analogy, because it's one person in n thousand, rather than one does in n thousand, but it could be harmless to most people or (far more likely) mostly harmless up to quite a large dose to most people and harmful even in quite small doses to a sensitive minority. Like I said, the research would be epic. I don't believe that "anyone who even stays in the same room while someone smokes a joint is going to die of a heroin overdose within five years," but nor do I believe that "weed's totally harmless and the government just wants to ban it because they don't want you to have any fun." That was an actual quote, by the way. Someone (who presumably did smoke weed) apparently seriously believed the government was staunchly against panem et circem.

The Great Hippo wrote:RUN FOR YOUR LIFE.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:56 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Depends. Are you now suggesting we should make people go through the same requirements for immigration as for citizenship? If not, you no longer a point to respond to.


The point is about illegal immigration. Standard immigrants are capped and controlled. Standard immigrants are either connected to US permanent residents... or are on work visas (and therefore necessary to improve our economy).

In any case, immigrants serve a useful role for our country.

-------

In any case, we force people to match the US's culture if they want to stay here permanently. The mechanism is the US Civics test. As long as a worker is only on a Visa, then they are at risk of being forcefully deported or otherwise their Visa revoked. The temporary Visa system is also hard-capped at specific numbers on a country-by-country basis.

Beyond that, permanent immigrants are also strictly controlled. And yes, diversity is important so we have a mechanism called the diversity lottery to ensure a mixing of American cultures with the rest of the world. But the important bit is that we've got a system that has been agreed upon... and the most important bit of these rules is... well... enforcement.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:58 pm UTC

So you are okay with an immigrant population that doesn't adhere to our culture, as long as we kick them out when they are no longer useful to us?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:02 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Through the immigration system, we can determine the labor categories that are being unfilled within our country, and compensate for it through immigration policy. That's fucking useful. It leads to incremental improvements to our society. And before anybody complains about closed borders or whatever... the USA is BY FAR the largest importer of immigrants (although IIRC, Britain may lead us in per-capita. But USA is also very high in per-capita acceptance of immigrants). So its not like our system is "closed" by any stretch of the imagination.


Per capita immigration (bottom table) is higher than the United States in the following countries;
Qatar, British Virgin Islands, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Cayman Islands, Singapore, Bahrain, UAE, Anguilla, South Sudan, Turks and Caicos, Cyprus, Aruba, Spain, San Marino, Libya, Norway, Sint Maarten, Isle of Man, Djibouti, Canada, Australia, Austria, Sweden, Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Botswana, Iceland, Italy, Ireland, New Caledonia, and Nepal.

Just FYI.

UK is actually quite a bit below the United States.

In any case, we force people to match the US's culture if they want to stay here permanently. The mechanism is the US Civics test.


Green card holders can stay permanently (they're called "permanent residents" in fact), but aren't required to take a civics test.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:04 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:So you are okay with an immigrant population that doesn't adhere to our culture, as long as we kick them out when they are no longer useful to us?


Quick question: have you stopped beating your wife?

Look, I'm not an idiot. Deportations squads will rip families apart and stuff. So yeah, its a sensitive topic. But when it comes down to it, the USA should be protecting its interests.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:15 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Thesh wrote:So you are okay with an immigrant population that doesn't adhere to our culture, as long as we kick them out when they are no longer useful to us?


Quick question: have you stopped beating your wife?


That's not really applicable. I'm just rephrasing what you wrote, which is not logically consistent: "We don't want others to come and threaten our culture, so they should adopt our culture, but not really just they should have basic knowledge about civics and speak the language, except not really, because we sometimes they are beneficial to us for cheap labor and we have to make some exceptions." Of course it's logically consistent if you add "But we don't want them to stay, just exploit their situation for our economic benefit and send them home because they aren't like us."

So what exactly do you want our policy to actually look like?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:18 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:
Thesh wrote:So you are okay with an immigrant population that doesn't adhere to our culture, as long as we kick them out when they are no longer useful to us?


Quick question: have you stopped beating your wife?


That's not really applicable. I'm just rephrasing what you wrote, which is not logically consistent: "We don't want others to come and threaten our culture, so they should adopt our culture, but not really just they should have basic knowledge about civics and speak the language, except not really, because we sometimes they are beneficial to us for cheap labor and we have to make some exceptions." Of course it's logically consistent if you add "But we don't want them to stay, just exploit their situation for our economic benefit and send them home because they aren't like us."

So what exactly do you want our policy to actually look like?


Lets take nurses. Our health care system clearly has some issues, and one of the major issues is our overworked nurses.

So, we open up our immigration services to those with nursing degrees around the world. That's what our policy should be. 20 or 30 years from now, things may change. At which point, we close off nurses, while the nurses who are still here can remain.

You bring forth a false dichotomy and fail to see how easily we can use the immigration system to solve problems today without necessarily causing major problems in the future. So yeah, you've brought forward a loaded question and probably misunderstand my point.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:19 pm UTC

So no immigrants allowed at all that don't speak English. What about refugees?

EDIT: Also, who determines exactly how many immigrants we need for any industry?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:21 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:So no immigrants allowed at all that don't speak English.


And as usual, the liberal response is to paint me as a jackass white-nationalist. Because that's the only argument you've got.

What about refugees?


Why should I even bother answering this question? Its clear that you've already made a decision about my viewpoint. In any case, yeah, refugees are important part of the US's responsibilities abroad. Steve Jobs == Syrian adopted orphan, etc. etc. Happy now?

Okay, so can we have an adult conversation now that I've proven that I'm one of you? Or are you going to keep trying to prove that any immigration talk that disagrees with your worldview is innately racist and protectionist?

EDIT: Also, who determines exactly how many immigrants we need for any industry?


Some statistician or economist. Washington DC is full of those types.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:24 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:So no immigrants allowed at all that don't speak English. What about refugees?

EDIT: Also, who determines exactly how many immigrants we need for any industry?

Yeah, I don't think restricting immigrants by profession is fundamentally different from restricting by country, religion, ethnicity, etc. Instead, you're just making a class distinction, which will often end up discriminating by country or ethnicity anyway.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:24 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Its hardly an atrocity that my parents had to learn English and pass a civics test to get voting rights and otherwise stay in the USA.

Had to learn English? Or was it just more convenient..? But that'd be a State issue, not a Federal one.

(Nothing against English as a language. I speak it myself, and very little else. Most 'Merkins also speak it, more or less. But there' s no special status. And as the world's fifth largest speaker of Spanish, I think Trump is neglecting in his duties by not putting America First, right..? ;))

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:25 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Thesh wrote:So no immigrants allowed at all that don't speak English.


And as usual, the liberal response is to paint me as a jackass white-nationalist. Because that's the only argument you've got.


You dance around the issues, avoid giving a clear answer as to what policy you want when I explicitly asked for it. I can only make assumptions as to what point you are making. What arguments have you given against illegal immigrants besides language, culture, and you personally don't like that others had it harder?
Last edited by Thesh on Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:26 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:26 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Its hardly an atrocity that my parents had to learn English and pass a civics test to get voting rights and otherwise stay in the USA.

Had to learn English? Or was it just more convenient..? But that'd be a State issue, not a Federal one.

(Nothing against English as a language. I speak it myself, and very little else. Most 'Merkins also speak it, more or less. But there' s no special status. And as the world's fifth largest speaker of Spanish, I think Trump is neglecting in his duties by not putting America First, right..? ;))


https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learn ... glish-test

The English test has three components: reading, writing, and speaking. Your ability to speak English will be determined by a USCIS Officer during your eligibility interview on Form N-400, Application for Naturalization. For the reading portion, you must read one out of three sentences correctly. For the writing test, you must write one out of three sentences correctly. Several study tools are available to help you prepare. To get started, see the materials below. Visit the U.S. Government Bookstore to purchase USCIS products and publications.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:31 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:
Thesh wrote:So no immigrants allowed at all that don't speak English.


And as usual, the liberal response is to paint me as a jackass white-nationalist. Because that's the only argument you've got.


You dance around the issues, avoid giving a clear answer as to what policy you want when I explicitly asked for it. I can only make assumptions as to what point you are making. What arguments have you given against illegal immigrants besides language, culture, and you personally don't like that others had it harder?


Thesh, will all due respect, you've asked me loaded questions and I feel like you are ignoring the important components of my argument.

There's nothing I have against illegal immigrants aside from the fact that they strictly undermine the immigration system. Its not that "others have it harder", its that "others are following the rules". By seeing illegal immigrants get off scott free (when instead say... my cousins fail the diversity lottery), it is most certainly an unfair feeling.

Look: Asian immigrants don't have a border that is shared with the USA. There's a fucking ocean out there. Any open-border strategy (or at least, a "pathway to citizenship") will favor South-Americans, Central-Americans and Canadians. There's really no reason for the Asian immigration community to support open borders. And that goes for all immigrants who are separated by the oceans: Asians, Indians, Europeans, Africans, Middle Easterners, etc. etc.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:39 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:First thing you've said in this thread with which I've disagreed.
Fair enough; I mean, it's still a drug that changes your underlying body chemistry -- and like any drug, we shouldn't expect those changes to all be 'good' ones. I also missed the fact that it's woefully under-researched (for reasons you elaborated on quite succinctly!).

My point was that the dangers of marijuana don't really correlate with our response to it; in fact, it's its status as a schedule 1 drug that makes it so inherently dangerous (partly because, as you said, we can't even properly investigate it to determine how dangerous it might actually be). I see this as paralleling our approach to illegal immigration; most of the problems with illegal immigration have nothing to do with illegal immigrants and everything to do with our response to illegal immigrants.

We justify our persecution by blaming the persecuted for the damage our persecution caused.

That being said, I probably shouldn't talk about weed being harmless, especially when I don't actually know that much about weed, so -- I appreciate you pointing that out!

KnightExemplar wrote:By seeing illegal immigrants get off scott free (when instead say... my cousins fail the diversity lottery), it is most certainly an unfair feeling.
That's fine, and even understandable; you're welcome to those feelings. But good policy isn't built around what 'feels' fair; it's built around what works.


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