Trump presidency

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elasto
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:18 pm UTC

It's the old chestnut about whether you should be tolerant of intolerance.

When you don't condemn intolerance, it gives birth to all sorts of evils from homophobia to fascism. The lesson the left took from Germany's rise in WW2 was that appeasement does not work: Not standing up to intolerance only makes it grow.

But when you do condemn intolerance, intolerant people pretend an equivalence between their intolerance and yours and get all outraged that 'they are being suppressed'.

Tolerant people can't win really.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:45 pm UTC

elasto wrote:It's the old chestnut about whether you should be tolerant of intolerance.

When you don't condemn intolerance, it gives birth to all sorts of evils from homophobia to fascism. The lesson the left took from Germany's rise in WW2 was that appeasement does not work: Not standing up to intolerance only makes it grow.

But when you do condemn intolerance, intolerant people pretend an equivalence between their intolerance and yours and get all outraged that 'they are being suppressed'.

Tolerant people can't win really.


“It's a lot like political discussion was in Soviet Union, actually. I think the inability to acknowledge obvious truths, and the ever-increasing scope of these restrictions makes it particularly frustrating. And personally, for whatever reason, I find inability to have more subtle discussion very frustrating--things are not white or black, but you can't talk about greys since the Basically Decent answer is white.”


I think the world is a bit more than just "Tolerant people" vs "Intolerant people". Especially with the number of "Trump voters" in that article who are aghast at his racism (or disbelieve it)
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:52 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:http://blog.samaltman.com/what-i-heard-from-trump-supporters

Its important to understand the side of Trump supporters.


“He is anti-abortion.” Note: This sentiment came up a lot. A number of people I spoke to said they didn’t care about anything else he did and would always vote for whichever candidate was more anti-abortion.

“He is anti-immigration.” Note: This sentiment came up a lot. The most surprising takeaway for me how little it seemed to be driven by economic concerns, and how much it was driven by fears about “losing our culture”, “safety”, “community”, and a general Us-vs.-Them mentality.


And this is why we can't have nice things.

Another point: the shit that Peter Thiel has gotten from his peers speaking for and financially supporting Trump. True, people have the "right" to react to speech in any way they want to. But the current culture of the left has a "chilling effect" on legitimate free speech. If you disagree with the left, you are ostracized. Period.


Free speech does not mean consequence-free speech. If you act like a dick, people have the right to treat you like one.

On the other hand...
Christians abuse atheist veterans in military parade on Memorial Day
High schools go out of their way to stop atheist student groups from forming
Atheist high school student protesting a school prayer at graduation ceremony gets disowned, threatened with physical violence, by his own community, including his own parents
Republicans more in favor of book banning, video games and movies
Missouri State Senator tries to shut down academic research on abortion wait periods
Arizona Republicans pass law banning "ethnic studies" classes in schools
Students arrested on campus for distributing anti-Bush flyers
Pro-Palestine supporters are routinely targeted for suppression all across the country

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:56 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Another point: the shit that Peter Thiel has gotten from his peers speaking for and financially supporting Trump. True, people have the "right" to react to speech in any way they want to. But the current culture of the left has a "chilling effect" on legitimate free speech. If you disagree with the left, you are ostracized. Period.


Free speech does not mean consequence-free speech. If you act like a dick, people have the right to treat you like one.

On the other hand...
Christians abuse atheist veterans in military parade on Memorial Day
High schools go out of their way to stop atheist student groups from forming
Atheist high school student protesting a school prayer at graduation ceremony gets disowned, threatened with physical violence, by his own community, including his own parents
Republicans more in favor of book banning, video games and movies
Missouri State Senator tries to shut down academic research on abortion wait periods
Arizona Republicans pass law banning "ethnic studies" classes in schools
Students arrested on campus for distributing anti-Bush flyers
Pro-Palestine supporters are routinely targeted for suppression all across the country


Is Peter Thiel a Christian or something? I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here.
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LaserGuy
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:01 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
Another point: the shit that Peter Thiel has gotten from his peers speaking for and financially supporting Trump. True, people have the "right" to react to speech in any way they want to. But the current culture of the left has a "chilling effect" on legitimate free speech. If you disagree with the left, you are ostracized. Period.


Free speech does not mean consequence-free speech. If you act like a dick, people have the right to treat you like one.

On the other hand...
Christians abuse atheist veterans in military parade on Memorial Day
High schools go out of their way to stop atheist student groups from forming
Atheist high school student protesting a school prayer at graduation ceremony gets disowned, threatened with physical violence, by his own community, including his own parents
Republicans more in favor of book banning, video games and movies
Missouri State Senator tries to shut down academic research on abortion wait periods
Arizona Republicans pass law banning "ethnic studies" classes in schools
Students arrested on campus for distributing anti-Bush flyers
Pro-Palestine supporters are routinely targeted for suppression all across the country


Is Peter Thiel a Christian or something? I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here.


I'm saying the left doesn't have a monopoly on the desire to suppress speech they don't agree with.

[edit]AFAIK, the "shit" that Thiel has taken for his support of Trump has not included losing his job, getting physically assaulted, arrested, etc. as with some of these examples.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:06 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:I'm saying the left doesn't have a monopoly on the desire to suppress speech they don't agree with.


I guess I'm confused then because your statement doesn't really contradict mine. But yeah, noted.

So do you think being ostracized for your speech is a bad thing? Then we should work together to stop it, whether it happens on the right or the left.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:24 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:I'm saying the left doesn't have a monopoly on the desire to suppress speech they don't agree with.


I guess I'm confused then because your statement doesn't really contradict mine. But yeah, noted.


I was responding to this, where you claim that disagreeing with "the left" results in people being ostracized:
True, people have the "right" to react to speech in any way they want to. But the current culture of the left has a "chilling effect" on legitimate free speech. If you disagree with the left, you are ostracized. Period.


The right is at least as guilty of this as the left. This is more of a tribal reaction, IMHO. Both sides have different triggers, but neither side is particularly blameless here.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:20 am UTC

Yeah, what Laser said. The Left's "shutting down" is generally trying to avoid language damaging to minorities and other threatened groups, while the Right's "shutting down" is about silencing science (especially climate science), action on the aforementioned, and recognition of things like police brutality, for a couple examples. I would not-so-tentatively argue that they are not equivalent.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:52 am UTC

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/po ... -month-in/
Nate Silver says polls show Trump's polling approval rates equals Obama average approval. =.=
Only 1 in 10 Democrats are motivated by Trump...which is a terrible sign or optimistically, there's lots of room for the Democrats to get further energized.

The biggest takeaway is that Trump has a lot of second chances because he's the president. In addition, any of the stories of Trump imploding are overblown and too early. Trump needs approval rates down to the 20s before Republicans abandon him and the Democrats take back the House.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:23 am UTC

Yeah, let's just take a moment here and remember what Nate Silver's prediction for the election was.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Lazar » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:02 am UTC

More accurate than most?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:29 pm UTC

Zooty wrote:Clearly we should use Cobalt-60 for bullets. It decomposes naturally in nature!

Something like this has actually happened. Depleted uranium is so dense, that it is used in armor-piecing artillery shells. There has been some debate about the health and environmental effects the depleted uranium could have on the area surrounding the impact sight. Here are some articles on the subject:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/ ... ade.kosovo
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/che ... 7ce4c28532
http://www.au.af.mil/au/AWC/AWCgate/dod ... 4aug98.htm
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:31 pm UTC

That's very, very different. Cobalt 60 has a half life of a few years, which means that a (hypothetical) cobalt 60 bullet would literally not be cobalt anymore within decades.
The counterpart of that short half-life is that it radiates like crazy. That single bullet would give you a lethal radiation dose in minutes if you were to stand next to it. Hence zooty's joke - it's naturally decomposing, good for the environment.

Depleted uranium is about 1 billion times less radioactive as Cobalt-60. You'd need a reasonably-sized warship made of pure DU to match the radioactivity of that cobalt bullet.

When people worry about DU bullets, it's really about the chemical toxicity of breathing in powderised or oxidised uranium. The radioactivity is ironically not that relevant, though it probably helped to give the issue attention.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:46 pm UTC

House Republicans have unveiled their current plan to repeal the ACA.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby MartianInvader » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:59 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:House Republicans have unveiled their current plan to repeal the ACA.

Hah, I was wondering how they were going to keep their promises to simultaneously repeal The Affordable Care Act, keep the same number of people on health insurance, and make the plan fiscally sound. Turns out their solution is to just not measure how many people would lose insurance or how much their plan would cost.

commodorejohn wrote:Yeah, let's just take a moment here and remember what Nate Silver's prediction for the election was.

Nate Silver gave Trump a 30% chance of winning, which was far higher than most other polls-based forecasters. In fact, he ended up taking a lot of flak from other forecasters for giving Trump such a high chance.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby VgKing » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:45 pm UTC

I honestly believe a section of the media is hell bent on ruining the Trump presidency. They are only looking at the negatives.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:48 pm UTC

VgKing wrote:I honestly believe a section of the media is hell bent on ruining the Trump presidency. They are only looking at the negatives.


You are welcome to list positives in this thread.

I know its not too popular, but I for one was against the Fiduciary Rule for example, and am happy to see it gone. Mattis looks like a reasonable pick for DoD (although I would have preferred a real Civilian so that the laws didn't have to be rewritten for him to become the Secretary of Defense). But aside from those two things... what good things do you have to say about Trump?

For the most part, Trump is doing what his campaign promised. He's "shaken up Washington" by putting people like Betsy Devos in charge of departments she doesn't understand. His connections with Russia only grow deeper by the day, and his anti-immigration squads are growing (despite the 9th District Court finding it potentially illegal). Trump is having a 2nd go at the immigration issue only demonstrates Trump's Islamaphobia.

But yeah, instead of complaining about the media, just say what you like about Trump.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby speising » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:49 pm UTC

VgKing wrote:I honestly believe a section of the media is hell bent on ruining the Trump presidency. They are only looking at the negatives.

That is because optical resolution is limited by the wavelength of the used light.
They'd need higher frequency EM sources, maybe gamma emitters.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:53 pm UTC

A section of the media is always going to be focussing on the negatives. It may or may not be the same section, the same size of section, the same legitimacy/otherwise of section.

If you know there are under-reported positives, put them forward. There may be disagreements about (e.g., as and when) the Wall being started as being a positive, but then at least all media will be reporting things that are at base a fact.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:55 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:A section of the media is always going to be focussing on the negatives. It may or may not be the same section, the same size of section, the same legitimacy/otherwise of section.


Trump certainly isn't "helping". How many National Security Advisors demonstrate a connection to Russia (while lying about it to the FBI and everybody...) in the first month of the Presidency and are therefore forced to be fired?

Trump's naivete of his own damn inner circle has led to improper vetting of his picks. Trump brought the whole Michael Flynn thing on himself. Trump's attempt at cutting immigration has also led to an Executive order that almost assuredly was unconstitutional (see 9th District Court). That's not "being anti-PC", that's simply being a dumbass who doesn't really understand the Constitution.

Granted, the rumors is that Steve Bannon wrote the Executive Order and all Trump did was sign it. But see what I said before: it seems like Trump overly trusts his inner-circle, despite the fact that damn near nobody in his inner circle knows anything about governing this country. Until Trump gets real experts to guide him through the court process... he'll continue to make these kinds of mistakes.

Its difficult to complain about "the lying media" when the White House literally has its own press team: https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog

We can get the "Trump Side" of the story whenever we want. I've been reading direct White-House news feeds as much as possible to negate bias, and I still don't like what I see.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dark567 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:00 pm UTC

MartianInvader wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:Yeah, let's just take a moment here and remember what Nate Silver's prediction for the election was.

Nate Silver gave Trump a 30% chance of winning, which was far higher than most other polls-based forecasters. In fact, he ended up taking a lot of flak from other forecasters for giving Trump such a high chance.
Nate Silver doesn't just judge himself by getting the end result right but also his percentages. If Silver predicts 1000 elections at 70% and he is right on every single he would view his model as flawed by not being more confident. Silver's 30% prediction for Trump should have been signaling that Trump's chances were way higher then a lot of people were giving him(and in fact Silver was pretty much yelling in his TV appearances how up in the air the election was). People have somehow come away from the election now that Silver's model doesn't work, when in fact it validates his model.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:08 pm UTC

Another issue is that we've seem to have entered an age where polls determine the number of people who come out for an election. In effect, Clinton's edge may have spurred Trump supporters to vote ("all or nothing") and make Clinton supporters stay at home (she's gonna win anyway, no point going to the polls).
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby RCT Bob » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:18 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Another issue is that we've seem to have entered an age where polls determine the number of people who come out for an election. In effect, Clinton's edge may have spurred Trump supporters to vote ("all or nothing") and make Clinton supporters stay at home (she's gonna win anyway, no point going to the polls).


Not too unlikely to assume that polls influence election results. I think the electoral college system also influences election results in a similar manner (which is why I don't put much value on the popular vote in the US). If a large portion of people in 'already decided states' simply don't show up because their vote won't matter anyway, that definitely influences popular vote results.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Whizbang » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:43 pm UTC

The root cause of a feeling of disenfranchisement, as I understand it, is gerrymandering and the Electoral College system. Both of these favor Repubs. The only cure is for Dems to make a solid showing for both the Presidential and Congressional election (in off years too) for at least two cycles, in order to give the Dems a chance to break up the gerrymandering at least (I don't think the Electoral College is going anywhere without several cycle's worth of dominance, and then what would be the point?). And even then the "cure" was not breaking up gerrymandering, but instead becoming more active. Which seems a tautology. The cure to a feeling of disenfranchisement is to cure the feeling of disenfranchisement.

There's a thing going around Facebook listing all the reason's Trump has accidentally made America great again. It lists all the great responses and efforts made in defiance of Trump's policies. Trump may be exactly what Dems needed to light a fire under their base and get them into the voting booths. Trump may be the cure to the feeling of disenfranchisement.

Or the final nail in the coffin.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:31 pm UTC

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pow ... 7f2e7f5fe0

Well then, this will get interesting.

Over a few confusing minutes, Schneider argued that the alt-right, a term coined then popularized by the National Policy Institute’s Richard Spencer, was philosophically left-wing because it departed from his definition of conservatism, in which “the individual” is sovereign.

“They hate the Constitution. They hate free markets. They hate pluralism,” Schneider said. “Fascists tend to want big government control.”


One of the walkouts came from Richard Spencer himself, who attracted such a large crowd of reporters that security staff asked him to move away from the entrance, which was rapidly being blocked. More and more cameras and recorders were shoved toward Spencer as he reminded reporters that the self-appointed guardians of conservatism had trusted Trump long after the alt-right had.

“’Donald Trump isn’t a conservative’ — that’s what they were saying a year ago,” said Spencer.

As the throng of reporters moved, Spencer was stopped by JP Sheehan, a CPAC attendee wearing a black-and-gold Make America Great Again baseball cap.

“Praise kek!” said Sheehan, posing for a selfie with Spencer and repeating a meme that had been adopted by the alt-right. “He’s the coolest guy.”

The growing crowd attracted more nervous attention from security, and after a few more minutes, they arrived to expel Spencer.

“I’m not welcome on the property?” Spencer asked.

“I’m not going to debate this,” said the guard. “This is private property. They want you off the property.”


Some conservatives are using the CPAC platform to attack the alt-right, which is nice. The question is if this will go anywhere. But now the leaders of CPAC are calling a group of Trump supporters left-wing fascists.

I doubt Trump has the balls to defend the likes of Spencer, but lets see what Bannon does.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Lazar » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:48 pm UTC

Dan Schneider wrote:Just a quick little tutorial in political philosophy. On the Right, you have more individual freedom and liberty and less intrusive government. On the Left, you have bigger, more intrusive government, less freedom, less liberty. As conservatives, we know what we believe. At the American Conservative Union, you can't work for me if you can't define conservatism with these nine words: "Conservatism is the political philosophy that sovereignty resides in the person." That's where we begin. It's with this philosophy that you are born will all the rights you will ever have. Government can protect those rights, and take those rights away. Government doesn't give you any rights.

No wonder these people are confused – he's talking about classical liberalism cum libertarianism, not conservatism. George Will, bless his heart, was able to point out the incoherence of the "movement conservative" project decades ago:

The Republican platform of 1980 stresses two themes that are not as harmonious as Republicans suppose. One is cultural conservatism. The other is capitalist dynamism. The latter dissolves the former. Capitalism undermines traditional social structures and values. Republicans see no connection between the cultural phenomena they deplore and the capitalist culture they promise to intensify.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:54 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/02/23/cpac-organizer-denounces-alt-right-as-left-wing-fascist-group/?utm_term=.a77f2e7f5fe0

Well then, this will get interesting.

Over a few confusing minutes, Schneider argued that the alt-right, a term coined then popularized by the National Policy Institute’s Richard Spencer, was philosophically left-wing because it departed from his definition of conservatism, in which “the individual” is sovereign.

“They hate the Constitution. They hate free markets. They hate pluralism,” Schneider said. “Fascists tend to want big government control.”


One of the walkouts came from Richard Spencer himself, who attracted such a large crowd of reporters that security staff asked him to move away from the entrance, which was rapidly being blocked. More and more cameras and recorders were shoved toward Spencer as he reminded reporters that the self-appointed guardians of conservatism had trusted Trump long after the alt-right had.

“’Donald Trump isn’t a conservative’ — that’s what they were saying a year ago,” said Spencer.

As the throng of reporters moved, Spencer was stopped by JP Sheehan, a CPAC attendee wearing a black-and-gold Make America Great Again baseball cap.

“Praise kek!” said Sheehan, posing for a selfie with Spencer and repeating a meme that had been adopted by the alt-right. “He’s the coolest guy.”

The growing crowd attracted more nervous attention from security, and after a few more minutes, they arrived to expel Spencer.

“I’m not welcome on the property?” Spencer asked.

“I’m not going to debate this,” said the guard. “This is private property. They want you off the property.”


Some conservatives are using the CPAC platform to attack the alt-right, which is nice. The question is if this will go anywhere. But now the leaders of CPAC are calling a group of Trump supporters left-wing fascists.

I doubt Trump has the balls to defend the likes of Spencer, but lets see what Bannon does.

Have either of them ever said they agree with Spencer's politics? Spencer is an actual honest-to-goodness white supremacist; Trump and Bannon just get accused of it by their critics.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:13 am UTC

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/
This might be the closest to that, a breitbart article praising Spencer as a leading intellectual of the alt-right. Bannon didn't write the piece, but he didn't stop it or retract it either, or even distanced himself from it. Months after this article, he still boasted that Breitbart was the online platform of the alt-right.

It seems fair to say that Bannon was OK with Spencer only last year. At the very least, OK enough to court Spencer's people as an audience for his website.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Lazar » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:30 am UTC

They definitely were (and are) playing with fire there. Some define the alt-right broadly enough to include what passes for normal among Trump supporters (I've seen "confrontational/dissident conservative" suggested for this), but characters like Spencer or the denizens of the recently banned alt-right subreddit will tell you that the movement is explicitly, necessarily white supremacist and anti-Semitic. (That group despises Milo, by the way, despite his insistence that it's all just ironic shitposting.) And just when you think you might be able to fruitfully distinguish between the alt-right sensu stricto and the "alt-light", you notice that there's just a *few* too many figures who've straddled the line between the two.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:11 pm UTC

His (Trump's) repeated delays in disavowing things like David Duke's endorsement or his recent anti-Semitism condemnation are perfect little winks to white supremacists, like, "hey guys, you know I have to do this to be politic*, don't worry."

He can plead innocence, but - no matter his sincerity - the white supremacy crowd is going to believe he has their back.

*Okay trump wouldn't say "politic" but whatever.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby jewish_scientist » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:18 pm UTC

Zamfir, I was just pointing out that the idea of a radioactive bullet is not as far-fetched as it sounds.

KnightExemplar wrote:You are welcome to list positives in this thread.

President Trump is doing what he said he would. In this way he is a lot like President Polk, who is one of the few politicians who promised to do A, B, and C, and then actually did A, B, and C. In C-Span's ranking of presidents, President Polk has consistently scored within the top 20 (out of 44) in all categories except Moral Authority and Pursued Equal Justice For All. One important difference between the two though is that President Polk's policies have been criticized and defended, while President Trump's policies have been universally criticized. For this reason, I predict that Trump with score very low in all categories except Vision/ Setting an Agenda and perhaps Relations with Congress.

The Washington Post wrote:“People want to talk to me,” Spencer told NBC News from outside the Gaylord National Harbor complex.

There is a joke to be make here, but I cannot figure out what it is.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:52 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:You are welcome to list positives in this thread.

President Trump is doing what he said he would. In this way he is a lot like President Polk, who is one of the few politicians who promised to do A, B, and C, and then actually did A, B, and C. In C-Span's ranking of presidents, President Polk has consistently scored within the top 20 (out of 44) in all categories except Moral Authority and Pursued Equal Justice For All. One important difference between the two though is that President Polk's policies have been criticized and defended, while President Trump's policies have been universally criticized. For this reason, I predict that Trump with score very low in all categories except Vision/ Setting an Agenda and perhaps Relations with Congress.


Emphasis on the underlined. I don't know what the public attitude around the campaign for Polk was, but with Trump's campaign many of his supporters (or at least those voting Trump to prevent a second Clinton administration) believed that Trump was all bluster, no substance, and that the other branches of government would serve as effective checks against his excesses. In this regard "fulfilling his campaign promises" doesn't really seem to be a net positive.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Opus_723 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:57 pm UTC

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fivethirtyeight.com/features/trust-us-politicians-keep-most-of-their-promises/amp/?client=ms-android-sprint-mvno-us

Presidents typically follow through on about 2/3 of the things they say they'll do during the campaign (although many of the promises "kept" are actually compromises, necessarily, so the method of counting varies). My impression is that most people think the number is far lower than that.

It'll be interesting to see whether Trump beats that average or not.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SlyReaper » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:23 pm UTC

Liri wrote:His (Trump's) repeated delays in disavowing things like David Duke's endorsement or his recent anti-Semitism condemnation are perfect little winks to white supremacists, like, "hey guys, you know I have to do this to be politic*, don't worry."

He can plead innocence, but - no matter his sincerity - the white supremacy crowd is going to believe he has their back.

*Okay trump wouldn't say "politic" but whatever.

Why should Trump disavow David Duke's endorsement? It doesn't actually have anything to do with him. He can't help that David Duke likes him. Disavowing him is just a waste of time that gains him nothing, because his critics will just say "Oh well of course he WOULD say that wouldn't he".
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby commodorejohn » Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:35 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:Why should Trump disavow David Duke's endorsement? It doesn't actually have anything to do with him. He can't help that David Duke likes him. Disavowing him is just a waste of time that gains him nothing, because his critics will just say "Oh well of course he WOULD say that wouldn't he".

Okay, fine, scratch that one. But around the time the White House managed to observe Holocaust Remembrance Day without ever mentioning the Jews, I stopped being willing to extend him the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:56 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
SlyReaper wrote:Why should Trump disavow David Duke's endorsement? It doesn't actually have anything to do with him. He can't help that David Duke likes him. Disavowing him is just a waste of time that gains him nothing, because his critics will just say "Oh well of course he WOULD say that wouldn't he".

Okay, fine, scratch that one. But around the time the White House managed to observe Holocaust Remembrance Day without ever mentioning the Jews, I stopped being willing to extend him the benefit of the doubt.


Ultimately that's why you disavow objectionable endorsements, to maintain that margin of credibility so people who are in that margin continue to give you that benefit of the doubt. As "Wastes of time" go it's a relatively minor waste of time, and it nets you the ability to make mistakes elsewhere without completely losing your credibility. It won't sway the critics on the other side, but that's not the point. It does keep your marginal supporters from going undecided and your undecided votes from turning against you.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby MartianInvader » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:36 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:...with Trump's campaign many of his supporters (or at least those voting Trump to prevent a second Clinton administration) believed that Trump was all bluster, no substance, and that the other branches of government would serve as effective checks against his excesses. In this regard "fulfilling his campaign promises" doesn't really seem to be a net positive.

Have any Trump supporters actually said this?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm UTC

Somebody had good fun trolling Trump's keynote speech at CPAC (Conservative Political Action Conference) by handing out a bazillion Russian flags with "TRUMP" across them. The crowds dutifully waved them until organizers were able to confiscate them.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:46 pm UTC

MartianInvader wrote:
Dauric wrote:...with Trump's campaign many of his supporters (or at least those voting Trump to prevent a second Clinton administration) believed that Trump was all bluster, no substance, and that the other branches of government would serve as effective checks against his excesses. In this regard "fulfilling his campaign promises" doesn't really seem to be a net positive.

Have any Trump supporters actually said this?

Peter Thiel wrote:think one thing that should be distinguished here is that the media is always taking Trump literally. It never takes him seriously, but it always takes him literally. ... I think a lot of voters who vote for Trump take Trump seriously but not literally, so when they hear things like the Muslim comment or the wall comment, their question is not, 'Are you going to build a wall like the Great Wall of China?' or, you know, 'How exactly are you going to enforce these tests?' What they hear is we're going to have a saner, more sensible immigration policy."

This got repeated a lot. And then Trump said, fuck sane, I want a wall, like in China.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby MartianInvader » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:53 pm UTC

I know it got repeated a lot by us liberals, but one thing I've learned in the past few months is that I (and the people I regularly talk to) don't actually understand what much of the country is thinking. So I'm wondering if these statements have actually been made by Trump supporters, or if they're just speculation.
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