Trump presidency

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Angua » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:58 pm UTC

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... are_btn_fb

Guardian now reporting on the gagging orders. USDA and EPA.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:06 pm UTC

speising wrote:Citing no new evidence, Trump continues to say there were millions of illegal votes

I don't know, is there some procedure to impeach a president because of mental illness?


I assume that was tongue in cheek, but it seems the requirements for impeachment are: "Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors." Would actually be pretty bad for the country if mental illness fell into those categories.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:07 pm UTC

Bribery. Maybe that's why he won't release his tax returns.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:12 pm UTC

speising wrote:Citing no new evidence, Trump continues to say there were millions of illegal votes

I don't know, is there some procedure to impeach a president because of mental illness?

That's not mental illness. Trump is making a concerted effort to delegitimize other institutions that could challenge him. His supporters ignore any Trump impropriety by assuming it's part of a elitist plot by the media. This is the dangerous part of Trump, the corrosion of democracy that Republicans started as a campaign strategy.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby speising » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:47 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
speising wrote:Citing no new evidence, Trump continues to say there were millions of illegal votes

I don't know, is there some procedure to impeach a president because of mental illness?


I assume that was tongue in cheek, but it seems the requirements for impeachment are: "Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors." Would actually be pretty bad for the country if mental illness fell into those categories.

If you have a president that sees reports nobody else knows anything about, that's pretty disturbing. I think there should be a way to remove a paranoid schizophreniac from office.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Plasma_Wolf » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:06 pm UTC

The problem with that is that a large portion of the country is eating out of trumps hand. While it's not true, those people feel their rights are being attacked if you even accuse Trump of paranoia or schizophrenia.

Under normal circumstances, the people of the country would declare such a man a complete idiot, vote someone more sensible and forget about him. But the past election has shown that these are hardly normal circumstances. Now Trump is not an idiot you can't take seriously, but the man who channels your worries and problems while every other politician ignores you. These politicians have to find a way to expose trump's weaknesses for what they are. And that's not easy with his support being as convinced as he is.

So to get rid of trump, you have to target the power base where you can, which is probably a decent part of the people who voted for him, but you're not going to get those with just stating trump is a paranoid schizophrenic. As annoying as it is that trump got in by yelling lots of things, with (at best) questionable reliability, you're going to have to come up with something better.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby JudeMorrigan » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:30 pm UTC

speising wrote:
Chen wrote:
speising wrote:Citing no new evidence, Trump continues to say there were millions of illegal votes

I don't know, is there some procedure to impeach a president because of mental illness?


I assume that was tongue in cheek, but it seems the requirements for impeachment are: "Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors." Would actually be pretty bad for the country if mental illness fell into those categories.

If you have a president that sees reports nobody else knows anything about, that's pretty disturbing. I think there should be a way to remove a paranoid schizophreniac from office.

There is. It's in section 4 of the 25th amendment.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:15 pm UTC

speising wrote:If you have a president that sees reports nobody else knows anything about, that's pretty disturbing. I think there should be a way to remove a paranoid schizophreniac from office.


As mentioned section 4 of the 25th amendment allows removing a president. It's not impeachment though. And let's be fair here, I very much doubt he is a schizophrenic nor paranoid, by the DSM definitions.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:18 pm UTC

Although I was reading Bob Hare's psychopath checklist and I'm pretty sure Trump would score around 30 (enough to be diagnosed as a psychopath).

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:20 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:Question for people familiar with how the US government operates: is it normal for so much governing to be carried out by executive order? Trying to work out if that's something uniquely concerning about Trump, or just something surprising because of me being used to parliamentary democracy.


Most of the time, people are complaining that the President can't do more actually. But yeah, the President is able to order the federal agencies around though executive orders.

There are limits to what the President can and can't order, but Trump has basically been doing all of the "obvious" ways to indicate that he's taking over. Trump can't undo Chelsea Manning's commuted sentence for example. I'm unsure how legitimate Trump's order to "stop enforcing individual mandate" is going to be, since its a self-reported tax thingy.

I guess in theory, I could NOT get insurance and then play games with the IRS in hopes that Trump's order is complete. But... that sounds a bit too risky for my tastes. I'm going to bet that most people will self-report the insurance thing on tax forms and pay up.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:30 pm UTC

Pro tip, announce a blanket exemption for the mandate, publicly. That lowers participation enough to cause a death spiral. Bam, The Affordable Care Act is in chaos cuz the individual exchange is dead. Trump or his advisors would have to be really reckless to do this though. And it'll give ammunition to Democrats... So 50/50 odds he'll do this.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:21 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:Although I was reading Bob Hare's psychopath checklist and I'm pretty sure Trump would score around 30 (enough to be diagnosed as a psychopath).

Unfortunatly:
Wikipedia: Goldwater Rule wrote:The Goldwater rule is the informal name given to of Section 7.3 in the American Psychiatric Association's (APA) code of ethics which states it is unethical for psychiatrists to give a professional opinion about public figures they have not examined in person and obtained consent from to discuss their mental health in public statements. It is named after presidential candidate Barry Goldwater.[3]

So even if he is a psychopath, there's no way we could diagnosis it, as he would have to be examined in person and gain consent to discuss.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:25 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:
Mutex wrote:Although I was reading Bob Hare's psychopath checklist and I'm pretty sure Trump would score around 30 (enough to be diagnosed as a psychopath).

Unfortunatly:
Wikipedia: Goldwater Rule wrote:The Goldwater rule is the informal name given to of Section 7.3 in the American Psychiatric Association's (APA) code of ethics which states it is unethical for psychiatrists to give a professional opinion about public figures they have not examined in person and obtained consent from to discuss their mental health in public statements. It is named after presidential candidate Barry Goldwater.[3]

So even if he is a psychopath, there's no way we could diagnosis it, as he would have to be examined in person and gain consent to discuss.

I'm not sure if there's any consequences for psychiatrists breaking the code of ethics, but surely they're just guidelines, and bendable in extreme situations?

EDIT:
Spoiler:
http://www.apa.org/ethics/code/
The procedures for filing, investigating, and resolving complaints of unethical conduct are described in the current Rules and Procedures of the APA Ethics Committee. APA may impose sanctions on its members for violations of the standards of the Ethics Code, including termination of APA membership, and may notify other bodies and individuals of its actions. Actions that violate the standards of the Ethics Code may also lead to the imposition of sanctions on psychologists or students whether or not they are APA members by bodies other than APA, including state psychological associations, other professional groups, psychology boards, other state or federal agencies and payors for health services. In addition, APA may take action against a member after his or her conviction of a felony, expulsion or suspension from an affiliated state psychological association or suspension or loss of licensure. When the sanction to be imposed by APA is less than expulsion, the 2001 Rules and Procedures do not guarantee an opportunity for an in-person hearing, but generally provide that complaints will be resolved only on the basis of a submitted record.


Ok, they are enforceable then.
Last edited by Mutex on Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:43 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:40 pm UTC

The consequences would likely being barred from practicing, and your license revoked. I would not put it beyond this vindictive administration to discredit whoever tried a stunt like this, revoke their license, and do everything (legal and illegal) in their power to repress/spin.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:47 pm UTC

Fortunately armchair psychiatrists like me can confidently declare him a psychopath with no repercussions.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:56 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:Question for people familiar with how the US government operates: is it normal for so much governing to be carried out by executive order? Trying to work out if that's something uniquely concerning about Trump, or just something surprising because of me being used to parliamentary democracy.

Assuming a bill passes every vote with unaminously, this is how a bill becomes a law:
Spoiler:
1: Congressman writes bill
2: Bill is submitted to subcommittee of the Senate/ House of Representatives
3: Subcommittee debates and edits bill
4: Subcommittee votes with a simple majority needed to pass
5: Subcommittee submits bill to the Senate/ House of Representatives
6: Senate/ House of Representatives debate and edit bill
7: Senate/ House of Representatives votes with a simple majority needed to pass
8: Senate/ House of Representatives submit bill to a subcommittee of the House of Representatives/ Senate
9: Subcommittee of the House of Representatives/ Senate debate and edit bill
10: Subcommittee votes with a simple majority needed to pass
11: Subcommittee submits bill to the House of Representatives/ Senate
12: House of Representatives/ Senate debate and edit bill
13: House of Representatives/ Senate vote with a simple majority needed to pass
14: If any editing was done during steps 9 or 12, return to step 2
15: Bill is submitted to President
16: If President vetos bill, return to step 2 with a 2/3 majority needed to pass any vote
17: President signs bill and becomes a law


You see, the Legislative Branch was designed to be very careful, the cost of which is that it is very slow. However, sometimes you just need to get things done quickly, so the Executive Branch can act much faster.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby PeteP » Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:20 pm UTC

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jan/24/journalists-charged-felonies-trump-inauguration-unrest
Four more journalists have been charged with felonies after being arrested while covering the unrest around Donald Trump’s inauguration, meaning that at least six media workers are facing up to 10 years in prison and a $25,000 fine if convicted.

A documentary producer, a photojournalist, a live-streamer and a freelance reporter were each charged with the most serious level of offense under Washington DC’s law against rioting, after being caught up in the police action against demonstrators.

The Guardian learned of their arrests after reporting on Monday that the journalists Evan Engel of Vocativ and Alex Rubinstein of RT America had also been arrested and charged with felonies while covering the same unrest on Friday morning.

All six were arraigned in superior court on Saturday and released to await further hearings in February and March, according to court filings. The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) said late on Tuesday that charges against journalists who were covering the protests should be dropped.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:45 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
speising wrote:If you have a president that sees reports nobody else knows anything about, that's pretty disturbing. I think there should be a way to remove a paranoid schizophreniac from office.


As mentioned section 4 of the 25th amendment allows removing a president. It's not impeachment though. And let's be fair here, I very much doubt he is a schizophrenic nor paranoid, by the DSM definitions.


First, the VP would have to send written notice to the House and Senate that Trump is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office; which isn't likely to happen.

Then, when Trump disputes this - which he almost certainly would and probably over Twitter - the VP would have to send another written notice to the House and Senate, basically declaring that no, really, Trump is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office.

At which point both chambers of Congress would vote and each needs a 2/3 majority to remove him from office. Which is very unlikely.

He wouldn't actually need to be declared mentally unsound by a medical professional or anything like that... "unable to discharge" is fairly open to interpretation. Of course, unless some really specific reason were given, it would almost certainly lead to a Constitutional crisis.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:51 pm UTC

Though, if it were to happen to anyone...

We should probably get all our "testing the strength of our democratic institutions" in while the getting's good.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:57 pm UTC

Where the hell is this idea of paranoia or schizophrenia coming from, anyway? Trump is lying, as he has been all along. Trivializing the rise of fascism with armchair diagnoses doesn't do anything to solve the problem and indirectly harms people who do have paranoid schizophrenia but manage not to fuck over as many people in their entire lives as Trump has already this week.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Vahir » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:14 pm UTC


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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Koa » Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:20 am UTC

Executive order for the wall... The impeachment needs to be sped up. Over $10bn tax dollars ordered by a professional tax evader. An egregiously bloated and ineffective set piece to placate the distorted public minority perception of the problems of immigration, the very thing he rallied against (bloated and incompetent government). This is the same modus operandi with his real estate empire. Everything has to be huge, everyone is thrown under the bus to prop up his public image, the king of leveraging debt to his advantage through ugly manipulations and political influence. There's no telling how congress is going to react at this point. How far are they willing to use him?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:30 am UTC

Koa wrote:Executive order for the wall... The impeachment needs to be sped up. Over $10bn tax dollars ordered by a professional tax evader. An egregiously bloated and ineffective set piece to placate the distorted public minority perception of the problems of immigration, the very thing he rallied against (bloated and incompetent government). This is the same modus operandi with his real estate empire. Everything has to be huge, everyone is thrown under the bus to prop up his public image, the king of leveraging debt to his advantage through ugly manipulations and political influence. There's no telling how congress is going to react at this point. How far are they willing to use him?

Do you not understand Republican goals and priorities? Trump is giving them everything they want, along with some shit they don't. They will gladly eat shit for the trillion dollar giveaway Trump is enabling.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dark567 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:51 am UTC

The real damage of Trump has long term been done. Eventually, the population and press will get bored of covering each new scandal each new day of lying and our trust will drop to all time low in our officials, media and their ability to convey the truth. This is the way Putin rules Russia, people lack trust in all the institutions so the status quo just remains forever without anyone able to or even able to trust in any alternative institution to check the power. We're fucked unless something gets fixed soon, every day right now seems like institutional trust a little more. There won't be any left in another 350 days to put back together.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:02 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:The real damage of Trump has long term been done. Eventually, the population and press will get bored of covering each new scandal each new day of lying and our trust will drop to all time low in our officials, media and their ability to convey the truth. This is the way Putin rules Russia, people lack trust in all the institutions so the status quo just remains forever without anyone able to or even able to trust in any alternative institution to check the power. We're fucked unless something gets fixed soon, every day right now seems like institutional trust a little more. There won't be any left in another 350 days to put back together.

Look at Berlosconi for examples of how Trump will fall and the resulting damage.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Koa » Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:20 am UTC

Like the collapse of Forza Italia. I feel like Trump is so extreme and incompetent that the Republican party will need to distance themselves at some point to save the party. Italy has a more multiparty system where it makes more sense to go down with the ship. Trump isn't a perfect scapegoat either, so I'm wondering where the line is.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby D-503 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:30 am UTC

Trump has been claiming that by participating in bilateral trade deals instead of regional agreements like NAFTA and TPP the US will be able to negotiate deals that benefit it more. Is this a reasonable claim? I would like to better understand the theory behind his position. Why would countries ever participate in multilateral deals if they are capable of achieving better outcomes from bilateral deals?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:14 am UTC

For some countries in some positions, it's a reasonable claim. But it's silly for the US. NAFTA and the TPP were exactly what the US wanted them to be, at that time, with those people involved.

Trump has other priorities than those people, but that has nothing to do with bilateral or multilateral.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:36 am UTC

Donald Trump ordered the National Park Service director to produce additional photographs of his inauguration crowds, believing the images “might prove that the media had lied” about the size of the audience, according to the Washington Post.

In a Saturday phone call, the president told Michael Reynolds, acting NPS director, that he wanted to see more photos because he thought they could show that the attendance at his Friday swearing-in ceremonies at the National Mall was above average, three sources with knowledge of the conversation told the Post.

Is that really the best use of the most powerful man in the world's time..?

White House deputy press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders told the Post that the call with Reynolds simply demonstrated that Trump’s management style is to be “so accessible, and constantly in touch”, adding: “He’s not somebody who sits around and waits. He takes action and gets things done.”


Ah, I see. But his minions are not allowed to be 'accessible and constantly in touch' too..?

In his first week, Trump reportedly banned numerous federal agencies from “providing updates on social media or to reporters” with a de facto gag order that sparked widespread concern about censorship and government transparency.

The Department of the Interior’s social media privileges were also briefly suspended after the NPS retweet, which the agency later deleted before issuing a short apology.

On Tuesday, an official Twitter account for Badlands National Park in South Dakota tweeted in defiance of Trump, offering a series of facts on climate change. Those tweets were also later deleted.

The climate change social media campaign appeared to spread on Wednesday when Death Valley, Golden Gate and Redwood national parks all published tweets that appeared to be defying Trump’s agenda.


I'm sure the US will survive this narcissist, but let's be clear: This guy would be frighteningly dangerous in countries with weaker checks and balances.

link to story

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:07 pm UTC

Koa wrote:Executive order for the wall... The impeachment needs to be sped up. Over $10bn tax dollars ordered by a professional tax evader. An egregiously bloated and ineffective set piece to placate the distorted public minority perception of the problems of immigration, the very thing he rallied against (bloated and incompetent government). This is the same modus operandi with his real estate empire. Everything has to be huge, everyone is thrown under the bus to prop up his public image, the king of leveraging debt to his advantage through ugly manipulations and political influence. There's no telling how congress is going to react at this point. How far are they willing to use him?


Impeachment for what? Like it or not, impeachment is only an option for treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors; you can't just impeach a president because you don't like him, or because you think his policies are really stupid, or even because he does a terrible job. It doesn't work that way.

Nothing you're saying about Trump is false, and it's probably understated. The man is a fucking train wreck. But until he actually breaks a law, impeachment is off the table.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:19 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:What little kids are you hanging around with that know the word articulate?
Maybe some particularly articulate ones...

(But I don't think we can call Mr President that. Seriously, not a great orator. Just pumps whatever kind of unrefined sludgy molasses 'his' people mistake as the 'real thing'. Yes it worked, whatever it was, but none of the speeches can really be termed as great oration.)

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby EngineNr.9 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:33 pm UTC

Chen wrote: As mentioned section 4 of the 25th amendment allows removing a president. It's not impeachment though.


So what is it called instead? Becoming ... un-presidented? :shock:

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:00 pm UTC

Impeachment is "just" the House bringing charges against the President, it's not removing him from office. Bill Clinton was impeached. The Senate then votes whether or not to remove him from office.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:42 pm UTC

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/tr ... -no-pivot/
Some liberals allowed themselves to hope that Trump, with his New York background and his once-cozy relationship with the Clintons, would prove more progressive than he let on during the campaign. Even some supporters said they weren’t sure Trump meant many of his more extreme promises.

If there is one takeaway from Trump’s first full week in office, it is this: He meant it.

Tldr Trump wasn't lying on the one thing we desperate hoped he was lying about. He's gonna be a populist.

I wonder if there's other stuff Trump promised oh the Campaign that Trump will follow through with. Maybe have Clinton reinvestigated if she annoys Trump again? Draining the swamp will probably be kept because it's defined by purging Obama appointees and making sure the agencies are loyal.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Quantized » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:48 pm UTC

The problem is that nobody really knows what he stands for. His past is fairly liberal, to the point of being in favour of abortion rights and legalized drugs. Then he flipped (obviously) during the campaign. He chooses his opinions based on what will get him ahead, as far as I can tell. I'm not sure anyone really knows what he stands for or what he will stand for tomorrow. But his current track, with the gag orders and the "alternative facts" do show a frighteningly fascist side that very well could be what he continues to promote. But it's hard to tell what will happen, and that's scary in itself.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:02 pm UTC

Im having hard a time distinguishing between what are legitimate Trump directives (gag orders, resignations etc) and what are parts of the standard process of transition of government. There was a Washington Post article with the headline "The State Department’s entire senior administrative team just resigned" (Link). Then there's a Vox article that goes to explain more whats going on (Link) and it doesn't actually seem abnormal. Similarly to how the USDA "gag order" seemed to be more business as usual, though the EPA one seemed more like direct Trump directives rather than a transition of power thing.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:20 pm UTC

Liri wrote:Impeachment is "just" the House bringing charges against the President, it's not removing him from office. Bill Clinton was impeached. The Senate then votes whether or not to remove him from office.


Yes, but when people talk about impeaching Trump, the implied desired result is removing him from office.

The point a lot of people keep missing is that he would actually have to commit a crime to be impeached. Bill Clinton committed perjury, was impeached for it, and was not removed from office. You can't just impeach the President (much less move on to removing him) because you don't like him, or his policies, or the overall job that he is doing. It doesn't work that way.

The 25th amendment allows for a more general removal, based on him being declared "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office" which is open to interpretation... they could, technically, declare that he's mentally unsound or whatever. But the key is that it has to be initiated by the Executive branch, specifically the Vice President. It's not something Congress can just do.

Every time we have a new President, at least one or two people in Congress start talking impeachment almost immediately. It's basically hot air intended to score some points from their supporters, nothing more.

The point is, unless Trump actually commits a crime that rises to the level of an impeachable offense, he isn't going anywhere for the next four years. Better to spend your energy resisting his agenda in ways that are actually feasible.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:03 pm UTC

Yeah, let me be clear - when I mentioned the 25th amendment, I wasn't intending to imply that I expected it to be something Trump would ever face. I was just clarifying that there *was* a procedure for removing a (hypothetical) president with severe mental illness from office.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:39 pm UTC

cphite wrote:But the key is that it has to be initiated by the Executive branch, specifically the Vice President.
The Pence Masterplan For The Advancement Of True Republican Leadership...

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freezeblade
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:21 pm UTC

I shuddered when I read that.
Belial wrote:I am not even in the same country code as "the mood for this shit."


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