Tyndmyr wrote:Call it whatever the hell you want, it's still killing people, and it still has a pretty horrible history when it comes to homophobia.
Sorry, am I supposed to be impressed by the argumentative strategy of ignoring my arguments and just reasserting your position in the face of criticism?
A redefinition is not an argument. It doesn't change the fundamental nature of what's happening. You're avoiding the problem and talking around it, not disproving it.
Tyndmyr wrote:Your use of the word "many" boils down to a special pleading for avoiding actual statistics.
It is possible, I suppose, that someone might also be in the KKK without themselves being a racist, but I shall lose no sleep over calling the organization racist. When describing vast communities of people, we are necessarily speaking in statistics. Not every member of the faith may be homophobic, but if the vast majority are, the faith still has a problem.
I'm not sure what you're referring to with "special pleading" here. Special pleading is when someone simultaneously upholds a standard while also asking to be personally exempt from it. To give a hypothetical example, it would be special pleading if someone went on for some pages of a discussion making unsupported generalizations about Muslims, but then suddenly decided on page four that everyone else
needs to be citing statistics.
However, since you want statistics and apparently can't be bothered to inform yourself on the issue on which you've been pontificating, about 39% of American Muslims say that homosexuality should be socially accepted
Ah, see, you gish galloped from Islam, to American Islam, and ignored that a healthy majority of those STILL don't accept that homosexuality should be socially accepted. 61% of people is a lot of people, and is totally justification for saying that they have a problem, as a community.
SecondTalon wrote:How about discussing something useful, like ways to attempt to prevent this sort of thing from happening again that don't involve gun control as that's an entirely different shitstorm of suck? Like how the fuck is a dude gonna live this goddamn long in America and lose his shit over two dudes making out? What the hell are we doing wrong that a person with that mindset still feels comfortable enough to live around the rest of society?
This is totally valid. I like hunting for a solution, and in this case, it probably involves looking back and wondering how this guy got here. I can't help but observe that society, particularly religion, has certain unhealthy views with regards to homosexuality, and tends to demonize those folks just a bit.
The specific Hebrew thing was getting a little off topic(though I'll cheerfully discuss futher by PM), but we can't reasonably discuss the problem if everyone is intent on denying religion's part in this. Both Christianity and Islam have actively promoted homophobia, and that's...kind of inextricably wrapped up with the cause here.
gmalivuk wrote: EdgarJPublius wrote: Belial wrote:
leady wrote:There should be 50 mass shootings between every Islamic inspired one in the US if it was random
There have been 133 in the US this year so far
. How many are you asserting were inspired by islam?
Those numbers sound suspiciously like the oft -cited and oftener-discredited \r\gunsarecool reddit "mass shooting counter" which includes "mass shootings" where no one died and no firearms were even present.
Those numbers are explicitly sourced in the article to this page
. Yes, it includes incidents where no one was killed, because something can be a shooting without being a murder.
If you have information on incidents included in that list that don't include firearms, feel free to share with the rest of the class.
This has been brought up and debunked on this forum before, and already covered. Note also, that Obama's "this type of mass violence doesn't happen in other countries" has been rated by Politifact as "mostly false". We have more than most in absolute number, but that's merely a function of population. In percentages, Norway, Finland, and Sweden, not normally considered bastions of violent crime, outstrip us in mass shooting deaths.
In fairness, that doesn't actually mean they're particularly bad with mass shootings, merely that these sorts of events are low-frequency, and thus, subject to significant variation. Norway, for instance, looks bad because of the single Breivik event. Taking the long view, this actually looks like a fairly rare, but constant thing in all countries, albeit with some cultural differences(China, for instance, tends to have mass stabbings, some areas use bombs, etc).
We *do* have a violence problem in other respects, but mass shootings basically are a different sort of problem than murder in general.
Kalium_Puceon wrote:You can't stop gun violence without gun control because that's exactly what anything trying to reduce gun violence is: Gun Control.
That's ridiculous. Look, violence comes in all sorts, and is affected by many factors other than weapon availability.
Maybe if the system had, yknow, done something about his reported beating of his wife, we'd have never gotten to this point. There's a number of reasons why that didn't happen, but, if true, it's an indicator of an earlier problem that in a better world, would have gotten attention.
Zohar wrote:Edit: Regarding his involvement in the LGBTQ community - It doesn't change the motive from homophobia (at least in my mind). If anything, it just shows we need to discuss toxic masculinity and sexual and gender education everywhere.
Honestly, the religious person who really hates gays because he leans that way himself is...something of a stereotype at this point. Almost certainly due to the toxic way they equip people to handle such things.
So, if it is the case that he was himself a member of the community, it's interesting from the standpoint of telling the story, but it doesn't dramatically change the causes of it.