50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:29 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:How about discussing something useful, like ways to attempt to prevent this sort of thing from happening again that don't involve gun control as that's an entirely different shitstorm of suck? Like how the fuck is a dude gonna live this goddamn long in America and lose his shit over two dudes making out? What the hell are we doing wrong that a person with that mindset still feels comfortable enough to live around the rest of society?


Then why did he pledge to ISIS? I realize that initially, it looked like purely a hate-crime attack, but there is now further evidence that this guy was also radicalized and inspired by ISIS propaganda. I mean, defeat of ISIS is always a goal, so that they stop being a source of inspiration. And then when the next guys want to be a source of inspiration of terrorists, we'll kill them too.

Not because we're bloodthirsty, but because that's what we have to do to stop these attacks in the future.

Ideally, we won't be anti-Muslim (or any anti-any other group) along the way. And hopefully we can keep the core values that this country and society likes.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:35 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:How about discussing something useful, like ways to attempt to prevent this sort of thing from happening again that don't involve gun control as that's an entirely different shitstorm of suck?
You're upset because you know the truth. They can't be stopped. And you aren't safe anywhere. It's telling that my wife had to go through training about what to do if a shooter enters her workplace.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:51 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:How about discussing something useful, like ways to attempt to prevent this sort of thing from happening again that don't involve gun control as that's an entirely different shitstorm of suck?
You're upset because you know the truth. They can't be stopped. And you aren't safe anywhere. It's telling that my wife had to go through training about what to do if a shooter enters her workplace.


Lets not go that far. Lone wolf mass shootings aren't really preventable, but the chances of dying from one are still lower than dying to mundane things like driving a car, or falling down the stairs.

Safety is relative. And compared to the rest of life, the chance of dying to a terrorist attack is still rather low. 300 Million Americans is a very, very beefy denominator. Add all the deaths of terrorist attacks in the US (including 9/11) in the past 10 years, and I can say with five-nines reliability (or close to it at least) that you won't die to a terrorist attack in the next 10 years (to achieve five-nines, fewer than 3000 people have to die).

If I were a more entrepreneurial man, I'd probably start terrorist attack insurance. People are more fearful of this stuff than they are rational about it.

--------------

Certain attacks can be stopped by intelligence agencies and police forces. Unfortunately, lone wolf attacks do not seem to be part of that set.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Deva » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:40 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:How about discussing something useful, like ways to attempt to prevent this sort of thing from happening again that don't involve gun control as that's an entirely different shitstorm of suck? Like how the fuck is a dude gonna live this goddamn long in America and lose his shit over two dudes making out? What the hell are we doing wrong that a person with that mindset still feels comfortable enough to live around the rest of society?

Wishes to quote something earlier, then.
- he told the FBI he had made the comments in anger because he thought colleagues were discriminatory and mocking him

Started the fire, perhaps. Called for greater discrimination against Muslims over the previous fifteen years. (Strengthened further now.) Imagines…jealousy. Witnessed increasing acceptance for homosexuality. Probably viewed that as abominable and unfair. Why should they receive support? Grew increasingly isolated. Simmered unattended until boiling over. Gave up on local support. Sought other sources. Found it, at the cost of their life.

Remains speculation, however. Knows little about such mindsets. Suspects at least one inaccuracy. May have hoped for respect through simple fear. Solves only one type of solo attack, also.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:19 am UTC

Echo244 wrote:This guy was a homophobe, looking to add... meaning and significance to his hate. If he's claimed links to Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah in the past before ISIS then I'm sorry but he's not inspired by ISIS. He was just trying to rationalise his hatred, link himself to some bigger group of hate and fear, and... add meaning to what he was doing.


That assessment jives with mine.

I suspect, based on no scientific evidence whatsoever, that the desire of some social misfits to feel powerful and respected, by committing a big, attention-getting act of violence, comes first.

The desire to pretend that this big, attention-getting act of violence is actually a noble and heroic act for some greater good--say, by choosing a target condemned by a group one wants to claim as one's tribe (religious, ethnic, political, whatever), and/or writing a manifesto explaining why the victims deserved to die--comes second.

A lot of mass-violence scenarios seem to fit this pattern. Frustrated powerlessness first, then a statement claiming it was all serving some higher purpose, instead of just being a senseless murder of innocents.

I'm not absolving anti-whatever groups from responsibility for the anti-whatever crimes they "inspire." I just think that when they "inspire" murders, they are simply attracting and validating free-floating rage and hatred, and making some targets much more likely than others. They aren't actually creating violent impulses from nothing.

And that might make all of us responsible--morally, not legally, of course--for whomever we may unwittingly "inspire" with the hatred most of us spew on a daily basis, against those we deem our moral inferiors.

Perhaps our own little bit of hatred is just a drop in the ocean, but it all adds up.

Do we build anything, or only destroy? (Granted, a lot of stuff needs to be destroyed, but what are we building to replace it?)

Instead of battling and belittling homophobes, racists, sexists, etc., it might be more constructive to attempt to convince them of the inherent dignity and rights of all people. It's not easy, but it can be done. Fight negativity with positivity.

Obviously certain acts and statements of bigotry must be condemned. But some of the garden-variety stuff can be handled in a more productive and persuasive way than slinging insults around, which tends to make people double down.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Kalium_Puceon » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:11 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:How about discussing something useful, like ways to attempt to prevent this sort of thing from happening again that don't involve gun control as that's an entirely different shitstorm of suck?
You're upset because you know the truth. They can't be stopped. And you aren't safe anywhere. It's telling that my wife had to go through training about what to do if a shooter enters her workplace.


Saying that they can't be stopped is true, however it's absolutely wrong to say that they can't be reduced, and so I'm going to go quote myself from a while back:

Kalium_Puceon wrote:I'm seeing the "It's impossible to stop a lone wolf" argument here a couple times and I want to pose a counterpoint. Do you know who hasn't had any mass shootings in ages? Australia. Two decades ago they had a massive shooting, really big deal. They imposed strict gun laws, banning heavy weapons and putting strong control on smaller firearms. Guess what, they haven't had a single mass shooting since. Sure, if you get attacked by a well organised, foreign force that can bring its own weapons, having those gun laws won't stop them, but it will stop every impulsive madman who buys a gun and shoots a bunch of people.

So yeah, while you can't stop your lone wolf killers, you can make their job a hell of a lot harder. And frankly I think that's a pretty good move to make.


You can't stop gun violence without gun control because that's exactly what anything trying to reduce gun violence is: Gun Control.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:24 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Lets not go that far. Lone wolf mass shootings aren't really preventable, but the chances of dying from one are still lower than dying to mundane things like driving a car, or falling down the stairs.
Tell SecondTalon, not me. The most dangerous subset of our population is young black males who suffer a murder rate of almost 8 times the rate for whites. According to the Gun Violence Archive 258 children have been killed or injured in 2016. While overall 6000 or so have died in the same span. On 6/11 a father shot and killed his wife and four daughters in New Mexico. Dying by gun is common in this country. Orlando is special merely because of the numbers, not because of the insanity behind it.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:47 am UTC

Continuing on the basis that this is a place to place news, here in "News & Articles", now there's something that puts a different light on things... Totally unconfirmed, but a lot of murmuring.

(Edited (twice) because a bad pun doesn't really work, or fit the mood of the situation. - Soupspoon.)

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Zohar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:16 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Lone wolf mass shootings aren't really preventable

Why? Or, at least, why can't we reduce them by 99%? People already gave examples of places where mass shootings don't happen nearly as often, due to gun control. I propose mandatory real (not abstinence only) sex ed in schools, whole classes dedicated to discussing tolerance and acceptance, to meeting people from other worlds than you. I would be surprised if that happened though, since fear is such a powerful tool in the hands of politicians.

Edit: Regarding his involvement in the LGBTQ community - It doesn't change the motive from homophobia (at least in my mind). If anything, it just shows we need to discuss toxic masculinity and sexual and gender education everywhere.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:53 pm UTC

jseah wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:What the hell are we doing wrong that a person with that mindset still feels comfortable enough to live around the rest of society?

Uh, I would think that his actions indicate he's NOT comfortable living around the rest of society. Otherwise he wouldn't be shooting the rest, yes?

Or do I misunderstand you?

You are.

Why was he still in Orlando? Why had he not moved to rural Montana, or another Nation if the tolerance of homosexuality was something he couldn't abide? Don't even try to say something about how moving or emigrating is difficult, as you're then saying that it's okay to see moderate difficulty in relocating as more important than 100+ people's lives. What about our society kept him insular and thinking increasing intolerance was acceptable? Why haven't we as a whole adopted a general attitude of socially accepting people getting some sort of outside assistance to deal with their own increasing hatred of other groups? A sort of "So you find yourself starting to agree with the KKK on a lot of issues" therapy? If the recent stuff about him using gay dating apps, indicating he's bi or gay, is accurate, what the hell are we doing that allows a person to hate who they are enough to attempt to kill a hundred who are similar or supportive of that?

When your options of behavior are reduced down to shooting up a nightclub being the most reasonable and logical course of action, society has failed you hundreds if not thousands of ways long before you hit that point. Ways up to and including giving you options to get the hell away from society.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:34 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Lone wolf mass shootings aren't really preventable

Why? Or, at least, why can't we reduce them by 99%? People already gave examples of places where mass shootings don't happen nearly as often, due to gun control. I propose mandatory real (not abstinence only) sex ed in schools, whole classes dedicated to discussing tolerance and acceptance, to meeting people from other worlds than you. I would be surprised if that happened though, since fear is such a powerful tool in the hands of politicians.


Fair enough. We can't stop Lone Wolf mass-attacks. The Lone Wolf will simply move to vehicular manslaughter as a weapon of choice.

I think you can still kill more people with an AR-15 (variant) than a car or truck however. But ultimately speaking, you can't stop the singular asshole who wishes to kill people.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:40 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Why was he still in Orlando? Why had he not moved to rural Montana, or another Nation if the tolerance of homosexuality was something he couldn't abide?
Turn your question on its head and ask yourself why you're still here in a society that is the way it is, if you are so unhappy with it? And you know the answer, you just don't like it. You're attempting to rationalize an irrational act.
SecondTalon wrote: What about our society kept him insular and thinking increasing intolerance was acceptable? Why haven't we as a whole adopted a general attitude of socially accepting people getting some sort of outside assistance to deal with their own increasing hatred of other groups? A sort of "So you find yourself starting to agree with the KKK on a lot of issues" therapy?
Society isn't composed of any one type of person. The KKK is perfectly acceptable to some group. And they don't want to change. And since society is made up groups that all believe that they are right and everyone else is wrong we often murder and kill each other over the differences. And if you had been paying attention ISIS is doing precisely what you think we should do, trying to homogenize their population so that everyone thinks like the leadership. And they are doing it through murder and terrorism.
SecondTalon wrote:When your options of behavior are reduced down to shooting up a nightclub being the most reasonable and logical course of action, society has failed you hundreds if not thousands of ways long before you hit that point. Ways up to and including giving you options to get the hell away from society.
You are suffering from an advanced case of hindsight bias. You know what happened and what he did. But how would you have known beforehand? Most people won't kill. And there are no little shining neon signs on their foreheads saying when they reach that point.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:41 pm UTC

[Never mind--I misinterpreted what someone was saying.]
Last edited by ObsessoMom on Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:46 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Zohar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:44 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:We can't stop Lone Wolf mass-attacks. The Lone Wolf will simply move to vehicular manslaughter as a weapon of choice.

Yeah, I agree. I think the discussion people are having is how to reduce these killings, and how much is it worth limiting various freedoms (to own guns, to choose your child's education, etc.) in order to prevent them. I don't think anyone thinks we'll just eliminate murder entirely.

ObsessoMom wrote:Um, the fact that the shooter was hanging around gay bars and using gay apps before the crime doesn't necessarily mean that the shooter was gay.

I agree. I'm just saying that even if he turns out to have been LGBTQ, that doesn't make it any less of a homophobia-based attack.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Lucrece » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:47 pm UTC

Besides, it's always been a convenient narrative for straight people to say that homophobes are self-hating closet cases because it distracts from the fact that the vast majority of murders of gay men happen at the hands of straight ones. It absolves the dominant straight culture from having to re-examine their social setups.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:49 pm UTC

Yes, sorry, I realized too late what you really meant, Zohar.

And I agree with Lucrece's point, too.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Zohar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:49 pm UTC

Yeah I suppose that's a useful excuse - "Even they can't live with themselves, so how can we?". The answer, as always, is smashing the patriarchy.

I mean, I'm only half-joking.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:25 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Call it whatever the hell you want, it's still killing people, and it still has a pretty horrible history when it comes to homophobia.

Sorry, am I supposed to be impressed by the argumentative strategy of ignoring my arguments and just reasserting your position in the face of criticism?


A redefinition is not an argument. It doesn't change the fundamental nature of what's happening. You're avoiding the problem and talking around it, not disproving it.

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Your use of the word "many" boils down to a special pleading for avoiding actual statistics.

It is possible, I suppose, that someone might also be in the KKK without themselves being a racist, but I shall lose no sleep over calling the organization racist. When describing vast communities of people, we are necessarily speaking in statistics. Not every member of the faith may be homophobic, but if the vast majority are, the faith still has a problem.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with "special pleading" here. Special pleading is when someone simultaneously upholds a standard while also asking to be personally exempt from it. To give a hypothetical example, it would be special pleading if someone went on for some pages of a discussion making unsupported generalizations about Muslims, but then suddenly decided on page four that everyone else needs to be citing statistics.

However, since you want statistics and apparently can't be bothered to inform yourself on the issue on which you've been pontificating, about 39% of American Muslims say that homosexuality should be socially accepted.


Ah, see, you gish galloped from Islam, to American Islam, and ignored that a healthy majority of those STILL don't accept that homosexuality should be socially accepted. 61% of people is a lot of people, and is totally justification for saying that they have a problem, as a community.

SecondTalon wrote:How about discussing something useful, like ways to attempt to prevent this sort of thing from happening again that don't involve gun control as that's an entirely different shitstorm of suck? Like how the fuck is a dude gonna live this goddamn long in America and lose his shit over two dudes making out? What the hell are we doing wrong that a person with that mindset still feels comfortable enough to live around the rest of society?


This is totally valid. I like hunting for a solution, and in this case, it probably involves looking back and wondering how this guy got here. I can't help but observe that society, particularly religion, has certain unhealthy views with regards to homosexuality, and tends to demonize those folks just a bit.

The specific Hebrew thing was getting a little off topic(though I'll cheerfully discuss futher by PM), but we can't reasonably discuss the problem if everyone is intent on denying religion's part in this. Both Christianity and Islam have actively promoted homophobia, and that's...kind of inextricably wrapped up with the cause here.

gmalivuk wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:
Belial wrote:
leady wrote:There should be 50 mass shootings between every Islamic inspired one in the US if it was random


There have been 133 in the US this year so far. How many are you asserting were inspired by islam?
Those numbers sound suspiciously like the oft -cited and oftener-discredited \r\gunsarecool reddit "mass shooting counter" which includes "mass shootings" where no one died and no firearms were even present.
Those numbers are explicitly sourced in the article to this page. Yes, it includes incidents where no one was killed, because something can be a shooting without being a murder.

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This has been brought up and debunked on this forum before, and already covered. Note also, that Obama's "this type of mass violence doesn't happen in other countries" has been rated by Politifact as "mostly false". We have more than most in absolute number, but that's merely a function of population. In percentages, Norway, Finland, and Sweden, not normally considered bastions of violent crime, outstrip us in mass shooting deaths.

In fairness, that doesn't actually mean they're particularly bad with mass shootings, merely that these sorts of events are low-frequency, and thus, subject to significant variation. Norway, for instance, looks bad because of the single Breivik event. Taking the long view, this actually looks like a fairly rare, but constant thing in all countries, albeit with some cultural differences(China, for instance, tends to have mass stabbings, some areas use bombs, etc).

We *do* have a violence problem in other respects, but mass shootings basically are a different sort of problem than murder in general.

Kalium_Puceon wrote:You can't stop gun violence without gun control because that's exactly what anything trying to reduce gun violence is: Gun Control.


That's ridiculous. Look, violence comes in all sorts, and is affected by many factors other than weapon availability.

Maybe if the system had, yknow, done something about his reported beating of his wife, we'd have never gotten to this point. There's a number of reasons why that didn't happen, but, if true, it's an indicator of an earlier problem that in a better world, would have gotten attention.

Zohar wrote:Edit: Regarding his involvement in the LGBTQ community - It doesn't change the motive from homophobia (at least in my mind). If anything, it just shows we need to discuss toxic masculinity and sexual and gender education everywhere.


Honestly, the religious person who really hates gays because he leans that way himself is...something of a stereotype at this point. Almost certainly due to the toxic way they equip people to handle such things.

So, if it is the case that he was himself a member of the community, it's interesting from the standpoint of telling the story, but it doesn't dramatically change the causes of it.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Diadem » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:42 pm UTC

Wow this thread is moving fast. I'm going to respond to some older stuff. I've read everything, but there's a few things I'd like to get back to that got snowed under.

gmalivuk wrote:You, a straight non-Muslim

I'm not sure if you're just making assumptions here or basing this on something I wrote long ago, but I haven't identified as straight for several years now. Except when I do. It's complicated. I don't see the relevance. There's merit in the idea that you shouldn't judge a group if you're not a member of that group, but the only group I was judging in that post was progressives, of which I'm definitely a member.

Which brings me to something Belial wrote early in this thread:

Belial wrote:I think the desperate search for a foreign religious influence for this attack by a "not very religious" (according to his father) cop-worshipping homophobe has a lot to do with the fact that many of the onlookers would be forced to acknowledge that our country has a huge homophobia and violence problem, which would in turn be acknowledging that their own homophobia is part of the problem.

This is a very good point. I agree with this entirely.

But it seems to me that this cuts both ways. People who want to deny or downplay the problem of homophobia in the west will be desperate to play up the Islamist connection, and downplay the homophobic one. People who want to deny or downplay the problems with Islamic extremism will be desperate to deny the Islamist connection, and instead blame these events purely on homophobia. The latter is what seems to be going on in this thread.

In my early 20s I was interested in libertarianism. I started participating in libertarian forums, and reading libertarian blogs. I quickly discovered something curious. The overwhelming majority of libertarians were also climate change deniers. This is curious because there's no a priori connection between these two topics. But the reason is quite obvious. Climate change is inconvenient for libertarians. It's a global problem that requires global solutions. It's possible to reconcile the two, but it requires nuance. Faced with the truth of climate change you can't keep shouting "Give everybody unlimited freedom and all problems will disappear!". So if you want such a nice and simple world view, you have to deny an inconvenient truth like climate change.

The same sort of mechanic seems to be going on here. Muslims are a minority that face a lot of discrimination from bigoted assholes. But at the same time many muslims are bigoted assholes. That's an inconvenient truth. It's complicates things. Calling out those muslims that are bigoted assholes increases discrimination against all muslims, and risks legitimising stereotypes. I see this even stronger in my own country, where we have a much larger muslim minority, often poor, often with an immigration background, often poorly integrated in the rest of society, and bigoted right-wing populist politicians who've built their career on raving against them, and now a refugee crisis on top of that. These are genuinely hard problems, to which I don't have the answer either. But I do know that pretending there is no problem is not the solution.

And writing it down like that it sounds rather obvious. But of course generally this isn't a conscious process.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Dauric » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:45 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote: Taking the long view, this actually looks like a fairly rare, but constant thing in all countries, albeit with some cultural differences(China, for instance, tends to have mass stabbings, some areas use bombs, etc).


Known as Running Amok. It's an official classification of mental disorder (actually two classifications, Beramok and Amok).

In this case the shooter seems to be a hodge-podge of mental issues*, from control issues over his own family (manifesting in beating his wife), to a desiree to find belonging (claiming associations with various middle-eastern organizations) and a degree of homophobia (whether instigated by religion, or just using religion as a justification).

*note: total armchair psychoanalysis, YMMV

This makes pinning down "A" solution to this particular situation difficult.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Zohar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:18 pm UTC

Diadem: Here's the thing - everyone is a bigot, and there's a lot of homophobia everywhere, yes also in Muslim communities, but also in other religious communities, as well as secular ones. And I think you're referring to two different things here - is this an "Extremist Isalmist" attack, stemming specifically from IS-like values, or does it stem from common homophobia, that occurs in many Muslim circles as well as others?

I (and others) have already explained why we don't think we can say it's an extremist Islamist attack, so the remaining motive is homophobia. I'm not going to deny that this specific guy may very well have absorbed homophobia from his Muslim community. But that isn't unique - I've absorbed homophobia from my secular community, religious Christians absorb homophobia from their Christian community, etc. The solution isn't to try and find what's wrong with Islam or how to fix that - the solution is how to eliminate homophobia in general.

There may be different attitudes that work in different ways in different communities (specific ways to make the topic approachable in the Jewish community as opposed to the secular Latinx/Hispanic community, for instance), but the basic issue is the same everywhere.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Chen » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:41 pm UTC

Hmm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... there.html

Now I'll grant it's the DailyMail but I saw a few other links (and notes on Wikipedia) that are mentioning this type of stuff. Basically he frequented the club for years before this incident, he was using dating apps that were primarily used by gay people and the like. It still doesn't answer the question of radicalization though, if true, makes the homophobia angle more complicated. It kinda also brings into question whether the story his father mentioned about him being enraged by two men kissing is at all true. While I haven't been to any gay nightclubs, I have to imagine the public displays of affection would be similar to those at any straight club, which probably means he would have been seeing a lot more than just kissing fairly regularly.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby EMTP » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:46 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Zohar wrote:Everything I'm saying has been mentioned before - he's claiming he's doing it for them and supporting their cause, but there's no proof that he's actually part of the group in any measurable way.
He is a part of the group in the one way that counts. He has done murder in their name. He has incited terror by murdering at the present count 49 and wounding at least that many more. Despite any other motivation he had, he handed them a headline that they didn't have to pay for. He doesn't need a membership card. He doesn't need to be sane. All he needed to do is to connect the dots for people here who want to believe, and to give ISIS more pictures for their memory books.


Well, no. It doesn't matter in a moral sense, if the pertinent questions to you are things like "Is ISIS bad?" or "Is this shooter bad?" But it matters quite a lot if you are interested in questions like "How do we stop this from happening in the future?" If a violent attack is the work of a terrorist cell, of a group of people united by an ideology to commit terrorism and acquiring money, or training, or other support from that cell and/or other members of a movement, then measures to identify & disrupt that movement, at home or abroad, may be helpful. If you have a man like Anders Behring Breivik, whose only outside help is in the exchange of ideas and reification of prejudices via the like-minded on the internet, then antiterrorist methods useful for suppressing terrorist organizations -- such as disrupting their finances, killing or capturing their members, or restricting their travel -- aren't going to work.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:55 pm UTC

Reportedly he brandished a knife when he heard a religious joke while at the bar a few months ago.

If anything, the anti-religious atmosphere at the Gay Bar may have contributed to why he attacked it. We'll never know for sure, but this angle makes far more sense to me than virtually everything else discussed in this thread.

Not to be stereotypical or anything, but there are lots of angry atheists who bitch about religion at bars and stuff. And if the anti-religious feelings at that bar mirrors the discussion around here about how religion is the bane of all LGBT issues and all... that could have been the cue that pushed him over the edge.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:00 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Diadem: Here's the thing - everyone is a bigot, and there's a lot of homophobia everywhere, yes also in Muslim communities, but also in other religious communities, as well as secular ones. And I think you're referring to two different things here - is this an "Extremist Isalmist" attack, stemming specifically from IS-like values, or does it stem from common homophobia, that occurs in many Muslim circles as well as others?

I (and others) have already explained why we don't think we can say it's an extremist Islamist attack, so the remaining motive is homophobia. I'm not going to deny that this specific guy may very well have absorbed homophobia from his Muslim community. But that isn't unique - I've absorbed homophobia from my secular community, religious Christians absorb homophobia from their Christian community, etc.


Of course it's not unique. If it were unique to him, it wouldn't be a recurring problem to worry about. The entire point is that he's really *not* that unique, at least, not so far as the homophobia is concerned. Stupidly common. And it is more frequent among certain religious communities, and usually supported by them as doctrine.

If there's something leaking toxic waste, concentrations will end up spread throughout a body of water by currents and such. However, tracing it to it's source is how you fix it, and looking at exactly how concentrations of it are distributed are how you zero in on the source. If you ignore the source...all the cleanup in the world ends up being sort of a stopgap thing, and the problem mostly continues.

So, yes, while these attitudes are found in secular circles as well, it's a cinch that these attitudes originate with and are specifically spread by certain religions. Some branches are getting over this, and that's great, but...there are a LOT that really are not.

Chen wrote: It kinda also brings into question whether the story his father mentioned about him being enraged by two men kissing is at all true. While I haven't been to any gay nightclubs, I have to imagine the public displays of affection would be similar to those at any straight club, which probably means he would have been seeing a lot more than just kissing fairly regularly.


Perhaps entirely true. It may depend on who the men were. And his beliefs at the time. Beliefs that involve self-loathing, etc are not really all that strange. It's interesting, for sure, but as of yet, it's certainly possible that it's all true. Or maybe not, early incident reporting is rough on details sometimes.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:08 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:But it matters quite a lot if you are interested in questions like "How do we stop this from happening in the future?"
He's bad by my definition on any number of levels, and for this type of attack there is no marker which you could use to stop him. The FBI had him in their sights and missed him. Why he did what he did opens itself to two possibilities. The obvious, that he is what he said he was, a supporter of terror. The second that he was a murderously homophobic. Neither in and of itself is sufficient. However from my point of view, my fear is that some will take the first as the primary with the second as a function of the first. That is that all Muslims are murderous and homophobic. With some very predictable outcomes. Listen to Trump, we may be very close to moving from the idea of blocking Muslims them from entering, to segregating them in ghettos, even if it isn't being spoken aloud at the moment.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:11 pm UTC

Do you believe that denying an obvious correlation* will make Muslims safer? Or will it only lend further credence to those preaching hate as "being bold enough to tell the truth"?

*Not saying that you, specifically are, asking in the abstract regarding the strategy that appears to be preferred.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Zohar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:18 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:If anything, the anti-religious atmosphere at the Gay Bar may have contributed to why he attacked it.

Um, huh? How many deep discussions regarding religion come up in loud gay dance bars?

Chen wrote:It kinda also brings into question whether the story his father mentioned about him being enraged by two men kissing is at all true.

I would guess he didn't go to the nightclub with his father. I can think of many reasons why a gay person might say that - trying to keep their cover as a straight person and feeling genuinely disgusted at PDAs by LGBTQ people (i.e. internalized homophobia) are the first two. So, I dunno?
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:18 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:You, a straight non-Muslim
I'm not sure if you're just making assumptions here or basing this on something I wrote long ago, but I haven't identified as straight for several years now. Except when I do. It's complicated. I don't see the relevance. There's merit in the idea that you shouldn't judge a group if you're not a member of that group, but the only group I was judging in that post was progressives, of which I'm definitely a member.
The problem wasn't that you were judging progressives, it's that you were judging how their actions and attitudes affect gays and Muslims. (Fine, you're not straight, but I think I'm still correct in saying you're not gay.)

"It's insulting to gays and patronizing to progressive Muslims" (or maybe you said it the other way around--I don't actually care about the specifics) is not something you have justification to say when you're not in either of those groups, and when the person you're arguing with is gay and when everything you were saying contradicts everything progressive Muslims are saying.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby sardia » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:22 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Do you believe that denying an obvious correlation* will make Muslims safer? Or will it only lend further credence to those preaching hate as "being bold enough to tell the truth"?

*Not saying that you, specifically are, asking in the abstract regarding the strategy that appears to be preferred.

That depends on how strong the opposing sides are. We don't cater to the KKK like we used to because they are very small and weak. We would only need to compromise our principles if we aren't strong enough to push aside Trump's fear mongering. So just how strong do you think Islamaphobics are? This isn't the day after Sept 11, and the GOP isn't supporting Trump whole heartedly. I'd be more open to compromise if this was a midterm election.

Edit the word filter for catering makes it kinda weird since I'm referring to the KKK.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:28 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:If anything, the anti-religious atmosphere at the Gay Bar may have contributed to why he attacked it.

Um, huh? How many deep discussions regarding religion come up in loud gay dance bars?


Casual slamming of religion happens, sometimes. That wouldn't be even blink-worthy.

But, we're out a bit into speculation here. We don't have very strong evidence either way on this claim, of course.

sardia wrote:That depends on how strong the opposing sides are. We don't show a basic level of decency and respect to the KKK like we used to because they are very small and weak. We would only need to compromise our principles if we aren't strong enough to push aside Trump's fear mongering. So just how strong do you think Islamaphobics are? This isn't the day after Sept 11, and the GOP isn't supporting Trump whole heartedly. I'd be more open to compromise if this was a midterm election.

Edit the word filter for catering makes it kinda weird since I'm referring to the KKK.


Well, given that Trump is running for president, I dare say they can't be THAT obscure...

And I dare say that the GOPs biggest beefs with Trump do not center around "he doesn't like Muslims enough".

(yeah, that particular word filter keeps annoying me. It...doesn't really work out well when talking about KKK or similar.)

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:41 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:If anything, the anti-religious atmosphere at the Gay Bar may have contributed to why he attacked it.

Um, huh? How many deep discussions regarding religion come up in loud gay dance bars?


I'm talking about a casual anti-religious joke that could have pissed him off. And yes, I've been to enough bars where people are openly anti-religious. Sometimes anti-Catholic, sometimes anti-Hebrew, sometimes anti-Muslim. Its not like I don't hear what other people are saying (although it depends on the bar / club. Sometimes the music is too loud, but I don't like those places)

In separate interviews, both Callen and Smith described one incident that unnerved them.

They said they decided to keep their distance from Mateen after he exploded in anger at a joke told by one of their friends, possibly about religion: "He ended up pulling a knife," Callen said.

"He said if he ever messed with him again, you know how it'll turn out."


Furthermore: Callen is a Drag Queen, and a former friend of Omar Mateen. If Mateen was ridiculously homophobic, then he would have lashed out at Callen a long time ago.

A drag-dancing married couple described seeing Mateen as many as a dozen times at the gay-friendly nightclub where he'd later embark on the single worst gun massacre in modern American history.

Ty Smith and Chris Callen recalled the eventual killer being escorted drunk from the Pulse bar on multiple occasions, including one incident where he pointed a knife at a friend.


An openly gay drag queen knew Mateen personally and got into discussions with Mateen. This homophobia theory is complete bunk IMO.

"That's bullcrap, right there. No offence. That's straight-up crap. He's been around us," Smith said Monday in an interview at the GLBT Community Center of Central Florida.

"Some of those people did a little more than (kiss) outside the bar.... He was partying with the people who supposedly drove him to do this?"


Omar Mateen may have been anti-gay in front of his father for acceptance. But evidence is beginning to show up that he was perfectly fine with going to this spot for years.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:47 pm UTC

Well, he probably didn't frequent a gay club a hundred and twenty miles from his home for the food.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby EMTP » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:01 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
EMTP wrote:But it matters quite a lot if you are interested in questions like "How do we stop this from happening in the future?"
He's bad by my definition on any number of levels, and for this type of attack there is no marker which you could use to stop him.


That is not true: What is true is that it is unknowable to any degree of certainty, in the case of any particular incident, what would or would not have prevented it. Stronger social norms against homophobia? More aggressive investigation and punishment of domestic violence? Stricter gun laws? A tighter reign on those who express sympathy for extremists on line?

This is one of the inherent problems in reasoning from anecdote. If you want to talk rationally about how to stop attacks like these, you have to look at the broad trends, one of which is gun violence:

Image

The easy availability of guns gives us many more gun homicides and suicides than other developed nations. We could change that, but so far have chosen not to.

Deaths by terrorism are by contrast very rare, so rare that its hard to say anything about a trend there:

Image

This shooter may have felt tormented by the conflict between his own gay feelings and his homophobia, and that homophobia in turn was likely multifactorial. It's a reasonable hypothesis that his cultural and religious background contributed to his homophobia and the self-hatred that engendered. But without policing religious doctrine or trying to take control of the values parents and communities teach to their kids, I don't know that there is a lot we can do to counteract those attitudes, other than to make our broader national culture as welcoming and tolerant as we can, to draw people away from intolerant subcultures and counteract the alienation which can be a breeding ground for extremism.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby sardia » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:10 pm UTC

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... -get-guns/
For those of you afraid that politicians will use this tragedy to pass gun laws, you're right. Except the people doing it are Republicans, and they respond by loosening gun laws. The affect on Democratic legislatures in statistically insignificant.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:14 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:This shooter may have felt tormented by the conflict between his own gay feelings and his homophobia, and that homophobia in turn was likely multifactorial. It's a reasonable hypothesis that his cultural and religious background contributed to his homophobia and the self-hatred that engendered. But without policing religious doctrine or trying to take control of the values parents and communities teach to their kids, I don't know that there is a lot we can do to counteract those attitudes, other than to make our broader national culture as welcoming and tolerant as we can, to draw people away from intolerant subcultures and counteract the alienation which can be a breeding ground for extremism.


Which is why I bring up this issue of something threatening him at his designated safe-space.

If Omar felt like Pulse was his "safe-space" where he could explore his (potential?) homosexuality, but that "safe space" was shattered because of some experience he had there... well... he was already an unstable individual years ago when both his first and second wife left him.

Maybe I'm going too far in assuming an anti-religious joke pushed him over the edge. So I'll retreat and use that as an example of what could have happened. In any case, it makes far more sense to me that Omar was going to this area as a welcoming safe-space, when he eventually discovered a cultural clash there which made him no longer feel safe or welcome (or perhaps more accurately: something someone said deeply offended him, and he lashed out violently)

And its nothing that Pulse could have done per se. I mean, some people at bars are just asshats.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:19 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Do you believe that denying an obvious correlation* will make Muslims safer? Or will it only lend further credence to those preaching hate as "being bold enough to tell the truth"?

*Not saying that you, specifically are, asking in the abstract regarding the strategy that appears to be preferred.
What obvious correlation? That American Muslims are murderously homophobic? What I am saying is the answer isn't that obvious. But as a way of processing what happened it has the advantage of being easy to comprehend.

Have you ever known any Gay men who couldn't, because of circumstance, find a place in either world and who tried to live in both? It is a dilemma designed to make you mentally ill, not to mention self destructive. It may have been true of him. And if it is it may be that he had a psychotic break which led to this.(I use that term loosely not being a psychologist)

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EMTP wrote:That is not true: What is true is that it is unknowable to any degree of certainty, in the case of any particular incident, what would or would not have prevented it. Stronger social norms against homophobia? More aggressive investigation and punishment of domestic violence? Stricter gun laws? A tighter reign on those who express sympathy for extremists on line?
I'll give you and answer if you tell me how to do any of those things any quicker than we already are. Unknowable with certainty is just another way of saying that the signal is buried in the noise. We can't filter it. Which is why the FBI looked and didn't see.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:21 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Do you believe that denying an obvious correlation* will make Muslims safer? Or will it only lend further credence to those preaching hate as "being bold enough to tell the truth"?

*Not saying that you, specifically are, asking in the abstract regarding the strategy that appears to be preferred.
What obvious correlation? That American Muslims are murderously homophobic? What I am saying is the answer isn't that obvious. But as a way of processing what happened it has the advantage of being easy to comprehend.

Have you ever known any Gay men who couldn't, because of circumstance, find a place in either world and who tried to live in both? It is a dilemma designed to make you mentally ill, not to mention self destructive. It may have been true of him. And if it is it may be that he had a psychotic break which led to this.(I use that term loosely not being a psychologist)


I do. And the gay men I know blame religion for it, and often become estranged from their family and start new lives elsewhere. Then their lives finally start getting better, although restarting social connections from nothing is hard.

Not saying all gay men follow this pattern: just the ones I know.

------------

The father is on record saying his son wasn't very religious. (Apparently beards are a big thing in that sect of Islam that they followed). Friends have noted that Omar was not religious (although it seems like he's on-and-off religious. He was definitely looking for something).
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:26 pm UTC

Chen wrote:It kinda also brings into question whether the story his father mentioned about him being enraged by two men kissing is at all true.
Totally baseless suggestion: One of the men was his boyfriend of the time, cheating on him, but of course he couldn't out himself to his father by saying that, so let him think it was the act, not the perpetrators, that sent him into a foul mood.

(Maybe not, but it would defintely fit the limited information.)

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:29 pm UTC

sardia wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/14/after-mass-shootings-republicans-make-it-easier-for-people-to-get-guns/
For those of you afraid that politicians will use this tragedy to pass gun laws, you're right. Except the people doing it are Republicans, and they respond by loosening gun laws. The affect on Democratic legislatures in statistically insignificant.


The fight is invariably picked by people trying to pass more gun control. Look at the media response. It's quite predictable.

This fight is then lost, yes. And Republicans cheerfully take whatever they can.

It's a depressing, predictable pattern at this point.

morriswalters wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Do you believe that denying an obvious correlation* will make Muslims safer? Or will it only lend further credence to those preaching hate as "being bold enough to tell the truth"?

*Not saying that you, specifically are, asking in the abstract regarding the strategy that appears to be preferred.
What obvious correlation? That American Muslims are murderously homophobic? What I am saying is the answer isn't that obvious. But as a way of processing what happened it has the advantage of being easy to comprehend.


Correlation between Islam(and in fairness, other extremely conservative sects, including some Christian faiths, etc) and homophobic viewpoints. And, of course, actions.

Yes, the average person doesn't jump straight to murder. That's the tip of the iceberg. That said, there *is* a pretty decent amount of overt anti-gay violence. Somewhere over a thousand hate crimes a year or something. Of what gets reported, of course. But that tip is supported by widespread views that normalize and justify violence.

Edit: News reporting is now claiming he apparently also scouted out Disney world for a possible attack. Not sure how strong evidence is, and he obviously didn't settle on that, but if true, that would somewhat weaken the "it's JUST homophobia" argument. Looks more like hunting for a crowded, victim rich environment.


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