2016 US Presidential Election

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sardia
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:01 pm UTC


Star wars was a waste of money when Reagan did it, and it's pretty expensive for the limited gains when Bush did it. In the triage of life, Nuclear weapons spending and posture is pretty low on my list. We can fix that in 4-8 years. Tensions will rise, but it won't instantly cause a crisis. Nor is there a clock that's running out like Global warming. This is bad, but it's more standard Republican level bad, instead of Trump crazy bad. At a certain point, they really blur together. Is Trump really that bad, or are Republicans just as bad, but didn't want anybody to know?

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:38 pm UTC


So *that*'s how Trump is going to put coal country back to work. We must not allow a mine shaft gap!

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby morriswalters » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:33 pm UTC

Assuming you mean a missile interceptor, consider the ramifications. If it works it creates an existential risk for an opponent. It suggests responses like putting nukes in low earth orbit.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:32 am UTC

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/tru ... -politics/
After the showman's lights are turned off, and the cameras stop rolling, someone has to implement policy. That person(Trump or whoever Trump appoints) needs "If I do X, then Y will happen". Trump has chosen not to fill his administration with any academics. This is gonna be fun*, imagine Governor Sam Brownback's Kansas, but for the entire country. "That growth's gonna come, believe me!" will turn into "Stop hating yo, it'll work, just give it a little more time" to "Plz don't fire me".

*terrible waste of time. Though I am open to the possibility that there will be so much economic giveaways, that we won't notice the costs til after Trump ends his second term+. After all, not enough people saw the downsides to Bush's tax cuts until after they lost power.

PS: GOP seems overall very happy with Trump right now. His cabinet is even more conservative than Ted Fucking Cruz. That's pretty impressive.
http://www.npr.org/2016/12/23/506615235 ... e-stand-up
Their only concern is if Trump ever strays from that path, and his twitter account. Tweets make them think hes unstable or confusing, in a bad way.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Dr34m(4+(h3r » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:07 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Assuming you mean a missile interceptor, consider the ramifications. If it works it creates an existential risk for an opponent. It suggests responses like putting nukes in low earth orbit.


Bring back Project Pluto

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:17 pm UTC

Dr34m(4+(h3r wrote:
morriswalters wrote:
Assuming you mean a missile interceptor, consider the ramifications. If it works it creates an existential risk for an opponent. It suggests responses like putting nukes in low earth orbit.


Bring back Project Pluto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Excalibur
This one is better, you detonate space nukes to power lasers that shoot down other nukes. 2 for 1 deal.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Opus_723 » Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:02 pm UTC

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/12/21/boeing-ceo-vows-to-build-new-air-force-one-for-less-after-trump-complaints.html

I'm not much of a businessperson, but I'm not sure why Boeing caved on this (Lockheed too). Maybe it's just because I live in Washington, but it seemed like Boeing had plenty of support to just tell him the price was the price. Far from everyone, obviously, but enough that they could have shrugged it off.

But I don't know much about defense contracts.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Thesh » Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:22 pm UTC

They know he is willing to cancel it, since even though it is a tiny part of the budget, it would make a good symbolic gesture and the cancellation will have absolutely no impact on Trump whatsoever.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:54 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:They know he is willing to cancel it, since even though it is a tiny part of the budget, it would make a good symbolic gesture and the cancellation will have absolutely no impact on Trump whatsoever.

Boeing doesn't give a shit about losing "an exploratory contract" that studies what it would cost to pay for a new air force one. It's pennies on the dollar compared to actual weapons contracts. This isn't even a deal to pay for the new plane, just the study of a new plane. Notice how Locheed Martin, when threatened with real losses, a quarter of their budget, actually fought back. It's just symbolism.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Liri » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:03 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Notice how Locheed Martin, when threatened with real losses, a quarter of their budget, actually fought back. It's just symbolism.

I was rooting for Boeing to win the vertical takeoff fighter competition. Their entry was super weird.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Thesh » Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:10 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Thesh wrote:They know he is willing to cancel it, since even though it is a tiny part of the budget, it would make a good symbolic gesture and the cancellation will have absolutely no impact on Trump whatsoever.

Boeing doesn't give a shit about losing "an exploratory contract" that studies what it would cost to pay for a new air force one. It's pennies on the dollar compared to actual weapons contracts. This isn't even a deal to pay for the new plane, just the study of a new plane. Notice how Locheed Martin, when threatened with real losses, a quarter of their budget, actually fought back. It's just symbolism.

I haven't seen any mention of this being an exploratory contract anywhere.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:15 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
sardia wrote:
Thesh wrote:They know he is willing to cancel it, since even though it is a tiny part of the budget, it would make a good symbolic gesture and the cancellation will have absolutely no impact on Trump whatsoever.

Boeing doesn't give a shit about losing "an exploratory contract" that studies what it would cost to pay for a new air force one. It's pennies on the dollar compared to actual weapons contracts. This isn't even a deal to pay for the new plane, just the study of a new plane. Notice how Locheed Martin, when threatened with real losses, a quarter of their budget, actually fought back. It's just symbolism.

I haven't seen any mention of this being an exploratory contract anywhere.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/06/us/po ... oeing.html
Original article states it.
In a statement after Mr. Trump’s Twitter post, Boeing said it had a $170 million contract to study the equipment that a redesigned Air Force One might need. That project has just gotten underway, so billions of dollars in cost overruns at this point appear to be impossible.

“Some of the statistics that have been, uh, cited, shall we say, don’t appear to reflect the nature of the financial agreement between Boeing and the Department of Defense,” the White House press secretary, Josh Earnest, said.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:17 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Dr34m(4+(h3r wrote:
morriswalters wrote:
Assuming you mean a missile interceptor, consider the ramifications. If it works it creates an existential risk for an opponent. It suggests responses like putting nukes in low earth orbit.


Bring back Project Pluto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Excalibur
This one is better, you detonate space nukes to power lasers that shoot down other nukes. 2 for 1 deal.


I, for one, welcome becoming the Honorverse. Hopefully the future has better writing.

Thesh wrote:They know he is willing to cancel it, since even though it is a tiny part of the budget, it would make a good symbolic gesture and the cancellation will have absolutely no impact on Trump whatsoever.


Yeah. Boeing is huge. They can soak a little less on this particular deal. So, chalk up another win for Trump, I suppose.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:45 pm UTC

It always upsets me when Trump, or any politician for that matter, gets credit for solving a specific case instead of the whole problem. Don't yell at that one CEO, fix regulatory capture. Yelling at Boeing isn't going to fix the military industrial complex. Or it's all a smokescreen and Trump knows it. It's hard to tell which. And don't tell me Trump hasn't picked a nonproductive fight before. Of course, no reason it can't be both.

He tried to squeeze some Chinese investors who thought both were in a win win deal. Trump made it so toxic that they refused to work with him anymore, even when it could have made them more money. It was a good real estate deal, and Trump blew it for a tiny upside.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:22 pm UTC

sardia wrote:It always upsets me when Trump, or any politician for that matter, gets credit for solving a specific case instead of the whole problem. Don't yell at that one CEO, fix regulatory capture. Yelling at Boeing isn't going to fix the military industrial complex. Or it's all a smokescreen and Trump knows it. It's hard to tell which. And don't tell me Trump hasn't picked a nonproductive fight before. Of course, no reason it can't be both.


Oh sure, fixing the general case instead of a specific problem is WAY more valuable. But the latter results in good PR. It's easy for people to comprehend. Trump can and obviously will sell this as a win for him, even if it's not so very important in the grand scheme of things.

It's a generalized problem with politics, I think. Preventing an entire class of problems is ridiculously useful, but putting out a fire that happened is way more obviously politically rewarded. This selects for people doing damage control, not long term planning and prevention.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Zamfir » Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:04 pm UTC

Yeah. Boeing is huge. They can soak a little less on this particular deal. So, chalk up another win for Trump, I suppose.

I don't see any evidence that Boeing is going to charge one penny less for the planes than they intended to do. The project is still in a budgeting phase - if the air force orders a gold plated variant, Boeing will charge for gold plate and a nice profit. If they want it silver plated, they'll charge for silver and a nice profit.

They'll wait it out, and if in a few years Trump still insists on low costs, they'll simply offer a tin-plated version with the same nice profit. Or they'll arrange one of those deals where the headline price goes down while future costs, like spares, get a bump in price to compensate. Or they'll make a combination deal, where a less visible project gets a wink-nudge price increase equal to the price cut for air force one.

It's not celebrity apprentice, they're not going to roll over for Trump's amazing deal making twitters.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby morriswalters » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:00 pm UTC

Who really cares? In two years nobody will remember. I doubt that Trump will. It's a short term reinforcement of what everybody already believes, both good and bad about him. He's done nothing as yet but Tweet. This reminds me that I think the developer of Twitter has earned a particularly special place in hell(if there were such a place). Trump's Twitter followers number around 17,000,000, as compared The New York Times readership of less than 2,000,000. We are riding into a Trump Presidency were 17,000,000 people will get their information in 128 character streams of consciousness.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:06 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Yeah. Boeing is huge. They can soak a little less on this particular deal. So, chalk up another win for Trump, I suppose.

I don't see any evidence that Boeing is going to charge one penny less for the planes than they intended to do. The project is still in a budgeting phase - if the air force orders a gold plated variant, Boeing will charge for gold plate and a nice profit. If they want it silver plated, they'll charge for silver and a nice profit.

They'll wait it out, and if in a few years Trump still insists on low costs, they'll simply offer a tin-plated version with the same nice profit. Or they'll arrange one of those deals where the headline price goes down while future costs, like spares, get a bump in price to compensate. Or they'll make a combination deal, where a less visible project gets a wink-nudge price increase equal to the price cut for air force one.

It's not celebrity apprentice, they're not going to roll over for Trump's amazing deal making twitters.


It's a PR win, not anything that matters. Trump demands that they charge less, they vow to do so. Looks good for Trump.

In the end, it probably will not be of any significance, yeah. They chop a few features off, a couple bucks are saved, but in terms of dollars relative to US government spending on a yearly basis....yeah. Lots of attacks on pork barrel spending end up looking like this. Large absolute numbers make good headlines, but that doesn't mean that significant change is actually happening.

But, from a political standpoint, that works.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Dauric » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:16 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Who really cares? In two years nobody will remember. I doubt that Trump will. It's a short term reinforcement of what everybody already believes, both good and bad about him. He's done nothing as yet but Tweet. This reminds me that I think the developer of Twitter has earned a particularly special place in hell(if there were such a place). Trump's Twitter followers number around 17,000,000, as compared The New York Times readership of less than 2,000,000. We are riding into a Trump Presidency were 17,000,000 people will get their information in 128 character streams of consciousness.


Why would that put the developer(s) of Twitter in hell? Someone designs a chainsaw, then someone else uses that chainsaw to murder a few dozen people, it's not the fault of the person that designed that chainsaw.

Howard Taylor who produces the Schlock Mercenary serial webcomic, has mentioned that using twitter forces him to consider the length of what he writes, and for him it's a tool to better his creativity.

On top of that It's not necessarily a bad thing to follow Trump on twitter, you don't know how many of those 17 million are simply looking at the direct quotes from the man who will hold the office of President, and still get information from other sources. It's arguably a good thing to keep up with what the PotUS writes publically regardless of medium, it could have policy implications. I'd wager that most governments have at least -someone- on staff who's subscribed to Trump's twitter feed, just to keep tabs on what he's saying.

The fact that our current Pres. elect doesn't have a filter, and twitters at 3 in the morning (possibly to avoid dealing with the Press Secretary) about anything at all that outrages him no matter how inane or how much it highlights that he's firmly entrenched as part of the "1%", is all on Trump.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby morriswalters » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:01 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Why would that put the developer(s) of Twitter in hell? Someone designs a chainsaw, then someone else uses that chainsaw to murder a few dozen people, it's not the fault of the person that designed that chainsaw.
Twitter isn't a chainsaw. I see it more as a poison masquerading as hard candy, with the developer trying to figure out a way to monetize it.
Dauric wrote:Howard Taylor who produces the Schlock Mercenary serial webcomic, has mentioned that using twitter forces him to consider the length of what he writes, and for him it's a tool to better his creativity.
What's good for a webcomic writer and a President are two very different things.
Dauric wrote:On top of that It's not necessarily a bad thing to follow Trump on twitter, you don't know how many of those 17 million are simply looking at the direct quotes from the man who will hold the office of President, and still get information from other sources.
We have a philosophical difference of what we each expect from a President. He has nothing to say at the 140 characters that I need to hear. In the future though I will keep my hatred of Twitter to myself.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:36 pm UTC

http://www.npr.org/2016/12/27/507143418 ... its-giving
You gotta give Trump credit for knowing how to shine a turd. Who else can shut down a scam pay to play self serving "foundation" while bragging about how great it never was. I'm pretty sure the average conservative voter doesn't even knows what Trump does with his fake charity.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Mutex » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:46 pm UTC

The US has expelled 35 Russian diplomats as punishment for alleged interference into the presidential election.

It will also close two Russian compounds used for intelligence-gathering, in Maryland and New York, as part of a raft of retaliatory measures.

The Russian government is expected to respond in turn by expelling US diplomats.

Sanctions have also been announced against nine entities and individuals including the GRU and FSB Russian intelligence agencies.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38463025

Well... Can't Trump just immediately undo this when he takes office?

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:04 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:Well... Can't Trump just immediately undo this when he takes office?

He's going to need a good reason, and suppress the information about the attacks that Obama is probably going to make public.

Probably best to take it on the chin, whilst in the background promising Putin that he'll renormalise things for him gradually, behind the scenes so as not to make a hig fuss.

(But it's Trump. He likes causing a fuss. Could end up as a toss-up between personal triumph and self-destruction when he tries to rock the already rocking boat...)

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby commodorejohn » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:05 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:Well... Can't Trump just immediately undo this when he takes office?

Probably, but it will force his hand on actively supporting Russia versus just making noise. Not that he cares, but it'd be hell for the Republican leadership trying to spin that.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:07 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
Mutex wrote:Well... Can't Trump just immediately undo this when he takes office?

He's going to need a good reason, and suppress the information about the attacks that Obama is probably going to make public.

Probably best to take it on the chin, whilst in the background promising Putin that he'll renormalise things for him gradually, behind the scenes so as not to make a hig fuss.

(But it's Trump. He likes causing a fuss. Could end up as a toss-up between personal triumph and self-destruction when he tries to rock the already rocking boat...)

It will probably succumb to partisanship, where Republicans are convinced that Putin is a strong leader with bad press, while the Democrats know Putin is a corrupt dictator. Partisans are very susceptible to their leaders viewpoints, and will follow their opinions. Cuba got higher ratings cuz of Obama, China via Nixon, etc etc.

It's not much of a jump for the GOP. Putin believes in Christianity, hates Muslims terrorists, hates on gays etc etc. The only bad part was the rivalry with the US. Relations could improve under Trump with Russia. The question is, should they improve?

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Mutex » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:14 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
Mutex wrote:Well... Can't Trump just immediately undo this when he takes office?

Probably, but it will force his hand on actively supporting Russia versus just making noise. Not that he cares, but it'd be hell for the Republican leadership trying to spin that.

I dunno, they've had to spin much worse stuff than this. I don't see Trump having too much trouble with this.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Dauric » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:18 pm UTC

sardia wrote:It will probably succumb to partisanship, where Republicans are convinced that Putin is a strong leader with bad press, while the Democrats know Putin is a corrupt dictator. Partisans are very susceptible to their leaders viewpoints, and will follow their opinions. Cuba got higher ratings cuz of Obama, China via Nixon, etc etc.


Thing is the partisan divide is weird right now. IF, and I stress the conditional, the Republican party really is saying Putin is a good leader with bad press, then it runs contrary to a U.S. nuclear buildup to counter Putin's Russia, which is also a Republican partisan line (and one that Trump has supported as well). It's difficult to say that Putin's a really great guy who's a little misunderstood on one hand, but on the other if he starts building up a nuclear arsenal we're going to modernize and build up our own in response.

From what i've seen so far I think the Republican party is still in shell-shock over Trump's candidacy and victory, and doesn't really have a coherent message, other than rampant corporate favoritism which appears to be Trump's only consistent position.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:20 pm UTC

The mention of Cuba is interesting. With Trump intending to reverse the good feelings w.r.t Cuba, what's Russia's feelings about that these days? Useful pals in the Socialist order, back in the day, but modern day Russia is more Permissive-Oligarchy, below Putin. Does the average Russian care much about their fraternal comrades in the Gulf/Carribean republic? Or are they sufficiently diverged such that it no longer actually matters to Putin? (Or it's a useful local "look how badly the Americans treat other countries" dead dog to drag out and half-heartedly beat with a ceremonial stick every now and then when convenient?)

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:46 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:From what i've seen so far I think the Republican party is still in shell-shock over Trump's candidacy and victory, and doesn't really have a coherent message, other than rampant corporate favoritism which appears to be Trump's only consistent position.


I mean, isn't it everyone's?

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:53 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Dauric wrote:From what i've seen so far I think the Republican party is still in shell-shock over Trump's candidacy and victory, and doesn't really have a coherent message, other than rampant corporate favoritism which appears to be Trump's only consistent position.


I mean, isn't it everyone's?

How the GOP reacts to the Russian angle will be telling. Will they focus on China and Muslims? Or will they challenge Trump in Russia? Remember, infighting hurts the Republicans, so there are disincentives to fight Trump on Russia.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby elasto » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:01 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Dauric wrote:From what i've seen so far I think the Republican party is still in shell-shock over Trump's candidacy and victory, and doesn't really have a coherent message, other than rampant corporate favoritism which appears to be Trump's only consistent position.


I mean, isn't it everyone's?

It wasn't Bernie's. It isn't Corbyn's. Unfortunately though, not enough voters rate the issue as important enough to alter their vote for. Bernie lost and so will Corbyn.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby cphite » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:26 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
Mutex wrote:Well... Can't Trump just immediately undo this when he takes office?


He's going to need a good reason, and suppress the information about the attacks that Obama is probably going to make public.


All the reason he'll need is that he's attempting to normalize relations with a major world power.

Probably best to take it on the chin, whilst in the background promising Putin that he'll renormalise things for him gradually, behind the scenes so as not to make a hig fuss.


Frankly, I would love to see some actual evidence of Russian hacking - something more than the White House assuring us that folks at the CIA are pretty sure it was the Russians. The FBI has already contradicted some of what they're claiming.

Granted, there are things the government cannot make public in terms of how they determine who did what... but the DNC servers are not protected government servers; they aren't classified and they aren't vital to national security. They're frankly not much different than hacking a corporation. Given the scope of the claims - that this hacking actually effected the outcome of an election - there is no good reason not to make the evidence public.

(But it's Trump. He likes causing a fuss. Could end up as a toss-up between personal triumph and self-destruction when he tries to rock the already rocking boat...)


Honestly, it's going to be a boon for him.

Like him or not (and I don't) the guy has shown a mastery of this shit. He's going to undo it in the name of renormalizing relations and whatnot, and he's going to use it as an example of how petty and stupid the previous administration - and by extension, Washington - was and how it's all the more reason we need someone like him to drain the swamp. And most of the people who voted for him are going to cheer.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:34 pm UTC

Quick tip about hacking. Revealing how you found out they hacked you reveals more about your defenses then your enemies offense. Aka, you aren't going to get much more information. Now what Obama could do is hack them back, but that would reveal secrets too. Also it would kill a lot of people. For example, there's a lot of cities that sit down river from a dam. You could, and countries *have done this, open the flood gates, and flood the city. Or cut off power to hospitals. These are all war crimes.

*Iran gained control of a US dam flood gates, and ordered it open. The dam was offline at the time, but the message was clearly recieved.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby cphite » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:17 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Quick tip about hacking. Revealing how you found out they hacked you reveals more about your defenses then your enemies offense. Aka, you aren't going to get much more information.


True... but we aren't talking about "our" (as in national) cyber defense. The DNC is a private organization; they use standard commercial security measures. This is akin to someone hacking a corporation, and while you don't reveal the exact technologies that you use to gather evidence, you can still reveal evidence (if you have it) that points to the folks you're accusing of the hack.

If we're expected to believe that a foreign power actually influenced a national election, we need more than a "trust us" statement from the government.

Now what Obama could do is hack them back, but that would reveal secrets too. Also it would kill a lot of people. For example, there's a lot of cities that sit down river from a dam. You could, and countries *have done this, open the flood gates, and flood the city. Or cut off power to hospitals. These are all war crimes.


A far more reasonable course of action would be to reveal embarrassing information about Russian leaders or other prominent figures. Escalating to the point where you're actually threatening lives would be colossally stupid... I seriously doubt Obama would order, or even allow, something like that.

*Iran gained control of a US dam flood gates, and ordered it open. The dam was offline at the time, but the message was clearly recieved.


Yeah, I remember that one... dude who did it was actually in New York and was able to physically access the dam, which allowed him to get the information he needed to gain system access. It was kind of a strange target to be honest... really small dam, even if they had gained control the damage would have been minimal, some flooded basements and pissed off townspeople at the most. I guess it could have been a proof of concept kind of deal, but even that is kind of iffy because a dam that small doesn't have anything like the systems of a large hydro dam for example.

It'd be kind of like if you wanted to rob a bank, and you practiced by robbing your neighbors tool shed. Same overall concept maybe, but pretty far off in terms of execution. :lol:

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby morriswalters » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:36 pm UTC

cphite wrote:If we're expected to believe that a foreign power actually influenced a national election, we need more than a "trust us" statement from the government.
What do you think could exist that would convince you?

However Obama has made his play straight out of the cold war cookbook. A public tit for tat. He sent a message to the Russians that says there is a price to be paid for being obvious and obnoxious. We send 35 of theirs to the Motherland and monkeyfuck with their property by closing two facilities. The Russians will retaliate, but the message has been sent. I think it is conceivable that the Space Station could be toast. It's a straight forward and obvious target.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:55 pm UTC

The Russians have raised the bar on what is deemed acceptable. For example, killing the pets of your diplomats, and ransacking their house. Though I don't think killing Putin's two dogs would do much to end the revenge tactics.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby elasto » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:39 am UTC

cphite wrote:If we're expected to believe that a foreign power actually influenced a national election, we need more than a "trust us" statement from the government.

Assange has been complimentary of Trump and scathing of Clinton.

Someone hacked the DNC and changed the course of the election. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter whether it was a foreign power or not; The point is made.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby commodorejohn » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:31 am UTC

elasto wrote:Someone hacked the DNC and changed the course of the election. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter whether it was a foreign power or not; The point is made.

Uh, it matters quite a lot if it's going to become the basis for an international incident.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:41 am UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
elasto wrote:Someone hacked the DNC and changed the course of the election. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter whether it was a foreign power or not; The point is made.

Uh, it matters quite a lot if it's going to become the basis for an international incident.

Welcome to the murky nature of cyberwarfare. It's all circumstantial evidence, like they saw comments in the code that indicate russian history, or how the benefits all go to Russia, and the timings of the releases, and gumshoe reporting of where the leaks are coming from. Did the Russians really hack us, or is this a Chinese ruse to get us to attack the Russians?* Could you convict someone based on this? Yes, but it's not a slam dunk. Would you go to war based on this? Yes. Hence, why the CIA is confident, but the FBI is quieter about it. There's different levels of confidence.

*or it's a corporation trying to profit off of Russian's normalizing relations, gasps! it's Rex Tillerson.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby commodorejohn » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:43 am UTC

Yeah, I get that. But at the same time, I understand why people would like to hear something a little more concrete than "look, trust us on this, okay?" from the government if it's going to be the basis for actions like these.
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