The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

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Tyndmyr
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri May 25, 2018 4:59 pm UTC

It's a problem, but I don't think it's insurmountable.

I mean, cruise control was basically the first step towards this, and it wasn't horrific, despite removing some necessary attention workload from the driver. Additional driver aids have generally been added without causing deaths to spike. Sure, people not paying attention is a problem, but the amount of people not paying a lot of attention without any sort of assistance at all is really quite amazing. Folks on their phone, doing makeup, digging around in the car, all while going down the road, super common.

It's less that robots are messing humans up, and that humans are not well adapted to steering a ton of metal at 60 mph for long periods of time. It usually isn't the robots killing us, it's us killing us.

This just turned out to be a system way too reliant on the meat person it's supposed to replace.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby speising » Fri May 25, 2018 5:24 pm UTC

the car had a whole six seconds of confusion, though. if it had pinged the driver, as in "i'm not sure what that thing is, could you please have a look?", there would have been ample time, even for a slow human, to step on the brakes.
anyway, if you're not sure what that blob ahead is doing, the prudent course of action is to slow down. which, incidently, would have alerted the driver, too.

Tyndmyr
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri May 25, 2018 5:41 pm UTC

Oh, I think we're on the same page here. An alert would have been reasonable reliance on the driver. Maybe it woulda stopped it, maybe not, but either way, it would seem like a very reasonable reaction to confusion about an object the vehicle is approaching and possibly would impact.

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Soupspoon
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Soupspoon » Fri May 25, 2018 6:20 pm UTC

It needn't even have been the disabled emergency braking at six seconds to go, purely precautionary slowing down (haptically alerting the occupant to focus on the road ahead, as a side-effect, without even flinging them around).

Cars decelerate/ease-off all the time under normal human control with following vehicles (when not tailgating!) adjusting themselves accordingly¹, and it shouldn't be a bad thing to act with caution. But, hey, that's what the developers need to have considered (and may actually have done, just not sufficiently in this case) when encountering temporarily unidentified 'blobs' crossing the limits of their sensors.

Again, I'm speaking from my armchair here.


¹ When they are too close, the second car may have to "slow faster", the third more abruptly yet, etc, but that's all part of good road-sense that only occasionally leads to problems at the moment. And surely a chain of (independent, non-convoyed) self driving cars could be far better at responding enough to not amplify the slow-down rather than have a day-dreamer in the middle of the pack panic and cause a 'road oscillation' in the stream of vehicles.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby commodorejohn » Fri May 25, 2018 6:43 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:It's a problem, but I don't think it's insurmountable.

I mean, cruise control was basically the first step towards this, and it wasn't horrific, despite removing some necessary attention workload from the driver.

That's not even remotely comparable, though. Cruise control removes an unnecessary demand on the driver's attention, enabling them to focus on the things more vitally in need of it. And while it does enable an irresponsible driver to pay less attention to things, it doesn't actively encourage it. That's a far cry from a system that is essentially premised on the "driver" not paying attention (and I'm sure they'd argue that no, no, that's definitely not what they intended, but get real - that's exactly the entire point of self-driving cars in the first place) until the actual driver (the AI) runs into a situation it can't cope with.

This just turned out to be a system way too reliant on the meat person it's supposed to replace.

Which is, again, the problem. The system as it stands can't cope with things without relying on a human, and humans can't cope with split-second context-switching into a life-or-death situation from a casual one, and somehow nobody sees a problem with the gap in capability that those two facts create for this system.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby gmalivuk » Fri May 25, 2018 6:49 pm UTC

On top of that, Uber placed another screen in the car and told the human driver to pay attention to it instead of primarily focusing on the road.
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby sardia » Fri May 25, 2018 7:32 pm UTC

[list=][/list] I guess the lesson is you pay full price and wait longer for Google to get it right, and Uber/Tesla blows.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby ivnja » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:25 pm UTC

Digital License Plates Roll Out In California

NPR wrote:California is testing new digital license plates on vehicles — opening up new possibilities and raising new privacy concerns.

The digital plates use the same technology behind Amazon's Kindle e-book reader to display large letters and numbers, as any other license plate would. But the devices are also able to show ads and personal messages and send data about their locations.

...

Reviver Auto says the company never shares data "with the DMV, law enforcement, or any other third party," and says users can turn off location data at any time. The company also says it has the same security standards that banks use in their online services to protect from hacking.


Well, I'm totally reassured.
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Soupspoon
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:21 pm UTC

And what's to stop the plate being hacked by either owner or malicious third party to show false-plates (for fun and profit, in either case)? "Flipper plates" (and false covers) have existed even before even the Goldfinger car, but this could look 'normal' even after conversion.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby jewish_scientist » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:09 pm UTC

NPR wrote:Reviver Auto says the company never shares data "with the DMV, law enforcement, or any other third party," and says users can turn off location data at any time.


This is false. There is no maybe or some gray area; this statement is false. Reviver Auto will have to share data with law enforcement officers who produce a warrant just like phone companies do. Furthermore, the features of these plates that actually make them better than regular plates is that they can, "track stolen cars and enable electronic vehicle registration," both of which require the plates sending information to law enforcement. American law and the companies own statements show that Reviver Auto must be lying.

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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby idonno » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:37 pm UTC

The company also says it has the same security standards that banks use in their online services to protect from hacking.


This is how you blatantly lie to people without telling a single falsehood. They want it to sound like it is a safe as your money in the bank but banks protect the actual money by being able to reverse transactions. A simple google search demonstrates that their data isn't exactly locked inside a vault.

Also, if every license plate has gps tracking in it, it won't be long before standard operating procedure for stealing a car is to disable it. A broken kindle still shows the last thing on the screen so making a broken plate look normal would be trivial.

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Soupspoon
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:18 pm UTC

Add a streaming element. If that fails, add a moving element to show that the valid connection is broken.
Image
If that aint moving, it's broke-broke.


(There are other ways to do it, and yet further ways to spoof those. Arms race, etc. I still think there are basic problems in other ways, but hey… )

idonno
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Re: The Thread To Remind Me We're Living In The Future

Postby idonno » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:21 pm UTC

I am not entirely sure the specifics of how the tech works but it is my understanding that the static nature of pages is how eink displays achieve such low energy consumption. Anyways, as you said, once you made this change, people will do something else. I find it highly unlikely that a surface level GPS at the same predictable location on every car will ever be an effective counter measure against theft and the obvious flaw makes it seem very likely that it is just their way of justifying putting a tracking device on every car to be exploited later.


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