The Darker Side of the News

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addams
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:14 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:sardia, have you been to north-central California? You have to drive for hours just to find a proper forest. The real issue with these fires is major grass growth from a very rainy winter coupled with sudden die-off and dry-up due to another dry, hot, drought-ey summer basically turning miles upon miles of rolling prairie foothills into a massive, contiguous tinderbox.
Yes!
This!

I still don't understand what started such a destructive fire.
The Golden Hills of California have been burning, always.

The area that burned was Developed!
Santa Rosa is a City.

A pretty little City, but a City none the less.
Apartment buildings and Shopping Malls burned!

Those people had Not encroached on Nature.

umm...Glen Ellen burned,
That is heartbreaking.

Glen Ellen was surrounded by sweet scented forest.
Eucalyptus, Pepper Trees, Pine, Myrtle; It was Great!

Glen Ellen was Home to Jack London and a NightTime Observatory.

I spent a lot of Time in that area. Yes...
(sniff-sniff) Glen Ellen had it coming.

EDIT: Maybe, it was the stupid non-native Eucalyptus.
Thanks a lot Australia! Some of those trees are 170 years old.

They drop slippery easily burned bark and leaves.
They are a darned Hazard for hikers on steep hillsides.
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eran_rathan
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:54 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:Same issue as those who keep rebuilding on floodplains. good luck getting people to stop doing that, too.

Knowing how terrible building there is a start. Right now, everyone wants to rebuild exactly where it burned/flooded. It's a good chance to buy them out or get them to move. There's already movement towards it, it's just underfunded and slow.


And where exactly are you planning on relocating the entire city of New Orleans, for starters? Or most of the island of Puerto Rico?
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sardia
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:03 pm UTC

Where are they actually? Texas took a lot of the refugees from New Orleans, and Puerto Ricans are fleeing to Florida.
Where they actually go isn't too important, so long as it isn't a designated flood zone. but I hear the rust belt needs people. It's a big country, there's tons of room if you aren't picky. That alone would cut FEMA payouts in half.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby commodorejohn » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:04 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
sardia wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:Same issue as those who keep rebuilding on floodplains. good luck getting people to stop doing that, too.

Knowing how terrible building there is a start. Right now, everyone wants to rebuild exactly where it burned/flooded. It's a good chance to buy them out or get them to move. There's already movement towards it, it's just underfunded and slow.

And where exactly are you planning on relocating the entire city of New Orleans, for starters? Or most of the island of Puerto Rico?

Or, hell, California's Central Valley, a.k.a. one of the country's largest and most productive agricultural regions and the primary reason why these cities are situated where they are?

But hey, every problem becomes trivial if you just discount enough information entirely!
Last edited by commodorejohn on Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:05 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Thesh
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Thesh » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:05 pm UTC

The problem is there are disasters no matter where you live, and all sorts of reasons why people live where they live; the only real solution is to requre distaster insurance for all property, public or private.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:11 pm UTC

Look, nobody said climate change was going to be pleasant. * There's a reason climate change is going to be the defining challenge of the century. The problems are huge, and you can either keep throwing good money after bad, or prepare for constant disasters. Most likely it'll be a combination of both, as people are forced to change, kicking and/or screaming for help.

That crazy drought, flood, then drought plus heatwaves? They're gonna get worse or more frequent.

*Climate skeptics notwithstanding.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:24 pm UTC

Yes, sardia; It is true.
And; Vey frightening.

Sea level rise scares me.
I can see the Ocean from here.

There are low tide days when we can stand on the Beach and look Up at the Breakers.
The Post Office, Gas Station and Grocery Store are inside the Tsunami Zone.

We are separated from supply sources by bridges and water.
Like the man said, "Water. Big, Big Water" (Idiot.)

When the sirens go off in Town I see Fear on the faces of the young women at the store.
We all Stop and Listen. When the pattern is Not Tsunami Warning, we laugh.

We all know, one day it will be No Laughing Matter.
We all have a plan A. There is no long term plan.

It will take generations of people to move everything Up and Away from the water.
Where I live is where the Californians come to retire and to watch civilization die.

Many of these mean old Bastards are not a bit shy about their anti-social leanings.
We need a strong, compassionate and steady hand at the helm. Not what we have.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:37 pm UTC

Tech companies are deleting evidence that they aided Russia during our election. That's pretty dirty of them. They help fuck us, and now they're deleting any evidence of it because they are hoping the investigation withers.
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/1 ... ion-243730
Twitter deleting evidence
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... formation/
Facebook takes down evidence after researchers noticed that Facebook didn't reveal full extent of Russian interference.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:46 pm UTC

What happens when they write an algorithm to take down the evidence before it gets found? AI in charge of twitter, facebook, et al is terrifying.

Jose
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:50 pm UTC

ucim wrote:What happens when they write an algorithm to take down the evidence before it gets found? AI in charge of twitter, facebook, et al is terrifying.

Jose

The algorithms to sort and delete data are already in place. It's the people at the tech companies that are directing the programs to delete evidence on purpose.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:52 pm UTC

sardia wrote:The algorithms to sort and delete data are already in place. It's the people at the tech companies that are directing the programs to delete evidence on purpose.

Yes, I know. But what happens when AI runs the company, with the sole directive to "maximize shareholder revenue"? And we can't figure out why the AI makes those decisions, but they do maximize shareholder revenue, so shareholders support it?

Jose
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:58 pm UTC

Presumably if the company gets sued for millions or more that would lower shareholders' revenue.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:17 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
sardia wrote:The algorithms to sort and delete data are already in place. It's the people at the tech companies that are directing the programs to delete evidence on purpose.

Yes, I know. But what happens when AI runs the company, with the sole directive to "maximize shareholder revenue"? And we can't figure out why the AI makes those decisions, but they do maximize shareholder revenue, so shareholders support it?

Jose

If you're afraid corporations will become soulless monsters who only seek to maximize profit, then it's already too late. What's exactly do you expect to be different between human ruthlessness and ai ruthlessness?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:20 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Presumably if the company gets sued for millions or more that would lower shareholders' revenue.
The shareholders would have to know about it first though, and they wouldn't.

Now, to be fair this doesn't really relate to this case, where the issue is whether posts deleted by the users themselves should be archived or nuked permanently as if they never existed (for privacy reasons). Privacy is extremely important, but this shows its dark side.

I don't think there's a good answer to this.

sardia wrote:If you're afraid corporations will become soulless monsters who only seek to maximize profit, then it's already too late. What's exactly do you expect to be different between human ruthlessness and ai ruthlessness?
Effectiveness.

Jose
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:47 am UTC

sardia wrote:Tech companies are deleting evidence that they aided Russia during our election. That's pretty dirty of them. They help fuck us, and now they're deleting any evidence of it because they are hoping the investigation withers.
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/1 ... ion-243730
Twitter deleting evidence
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... formation/
Facebook takes down evidence after researchers noticed that Facebook didn't reveal full extent of Russian interference.


So they should violate their privacy policies instead and let the government access whatever data they want? This is just saying the same thing that happens when I personally delete a Facebook post or account is what happened with the accounts that were spreading fake news.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:29 pm UTC

Chen wrote:So they should violate their privacy policies instead

Advertisements shouldn't be subject to privacy laws - they're designed to be seen.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:57 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Advertisements shouldn't be subject to privacy laws - they're designed to be seen.


So an advertiser should never be able to rescind and ad? Realistically that's what was happening in the Facebook case. The person who initially posted the ad removed their account and thus all the content that account produced got removed. It's similar in the Twitter case, though it doesn't even specify anything about ads, just removed Tweets.

It's similar to the whole "Right to be forgotten" arguments regarding asking Google to remove search results. I'm more on board with not having the right to do that. Once you post something though, its there FOREVER. Many people seem to be opposed to that though and hence the privacy policies/laws that are letting people remove their content, which leads to the situations in these articles.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:38 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Chen wrote:So they should violate their privacy policies instead

Advertisements shouldn't be subject to privacy laws - they're designed to be seen.

Most people and judges for that matter are able to balance national interested/public needs against privacy policies that were written specifically to benefit each tech company. These files aren't actually deleted. What they are doing is preventing researchers from digging up embarrassing information about how far reaching the Russians got inside the tech companies. The data is still there, just hidden. Don't think for a second that Facebook suddenly developed a conscious and became privacy advocates. They're covering their butts by censoring the data. The fear is the public will crack down on the tech giants if the true scope of Russian interference is revealed.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:17 pm UTC

In an endeavour such as these extranational social media sites, the possibility of any government twisting out 'personal' user information is going to hit their image hard. You don't want whichever unstable Egyptian* regime it is this week finding out exactly who is protesting for their democratic rights and against the government, and who is giving them moral support? Fine, but then who gets to say that a subset of the government of the 'A. N. of Otherplace' gets to access very similar information because of their own problems?

Tricky to unravel. Not impossible, but that's before we even get to regimes now knowing that an opposing regime is now seeming to get more control over a system that infests their territory than they can themselves ('rightfully') ask for cooperation. Depending upon relative POVs, that is.

(Insert some Great Firewall Of China and Weibo discussion here, if you want.)

* Speaking historically, in this example.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Zohar » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:58 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Zohar wrote:Advertisements shouldn't be subject to privacy laws - they're designed to be seen.


So an advertiser should never be able to rescind and ad?

...

It's similar to the whole "Right to be forgotten" arguments regarding asking Google to remove search results.


They can rescind ads if they want, sure. They don't get to claim ad is private or confidential. Just as I can go and look at a newspaper archive to see what ads were published 30 years ago, I should be able to do the same with Facebook.

As for the right to be forgotten arguments - it may or may not be valid, but corporations and governments are not people, and they don't get the same privileges (regardless of what Hobby Lobby wants you to think).
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:34 pm UTC

I'm confused as to either of the pro Facebook/tech company argument. Did the Russians come out and said they wanted their ads to be forgotten and Facebook is merely complying? Or was there never any such policy, and Facebook is covering their tracks to prevent investigators from revealing the full extent of Russian interference?
Soupspoon wrote:In an endeavour such as these extranational social media sites, the possibility of any government twisting out 'personal' user information is going to hit their image hard. You don't want whichever unstable Egyptian* regime it is this week finding out exactly who is protesting for their democratic rights and against the government, and who is giving them moral support? Fine, but then who gets to say that a subset of the government of the 'A. N. of Otherplace' gets to access very similar information because of their own problems?

Tricky to unravel. Not impossible, but that's before we even get to regimes now knowing that an opposing regime is now seeming to get more control over a system that infests their territory than they can themselves ('rightfully') ask for cooperation. Depending upon relative POVs, that is.

(Insert some Great Firewall Of China and Weibo discussion here, if you want.)

* Speaking historically, in this example.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:36 pm UTC

Yes.
It looks like FaceBook is Covering its Ass and its Tracks.

The crisis and the suffering go on in Puerto Rico.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4qcK88zcX0

(shrug) Maybe, like Weibo, you can Fact Check this.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:31 pm UTC

sardia wrote:I'm confused as to either of the pro Facebook/tech company argument. Did the Russians come out and said they wanted their ads to be forgotten and Facebook is merely complying? Or was there never any such policy, and Facebook is covering their tracks to prevent investigators from revealing the full extent of Russian interference?


I may be wrong here but it looks as though once an account is closed, all it's content goes with it. The Facebook article mentioned there were analytics that continued to show the closed accounts postings and that wasn't intended. Once they fixed that, the researcher couldn't see any of the posts or analytics for those posts anymore. This is similar to the Twitter one. From that article

One reason is Twitter’s aggressively pro-consumer privacy policies, which generally dictate that once any user revises or deletes their tweets, paid promotions or entire accounts, the company itself must do so as well. Twitter policy requires similar actions by private companies that pay for access to its real-time global data stream and repository of saved data for use in marketing and other commercial analysis.


What I'm getting from this is that all the fake news bots and/or Russian operatives had started closing their accounts so that all this content they were posting during the election disappears.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:05 am UTC

sardia wrote:I'm confused as to either of the pro Facebook/tech company argument. […]
Soupspoon wrote:In an endeavour such as these extranational social media sites, […]

As I was top-post replied (in error?), I suppose I ought to say that this isn't my argument, just apparently their argument.

I haven't seen any T&Cs for Facebook or Twitter, let alone 'signed' acceptance of them, but I pretty much assume that the companies can retain or delete data as they see fit to fulfill their corporate existence. But users need to think they are safe in revealing their personal details to others, whether or not they've actually set up the relevant access controls properly, and whether or not the platform implements those properly, and even if the data never really disappears (because they also like the idea that they can petition Tech Supoort for the return of precious data that they think they accidentally deleted), they simultaneously want some variant of the Right To Be Forgotten to happen in whole or in part on demand, especially after that particularly drunken night out... The only way that can happen is for the Twitbook servers to be a Brown Hole, with everything that falls onto the singularity being held behind an event horizon that can return things, forevermore, but only when they go to the trouble of asking for it.

(As everyone should realise, it's never so neat (especially in practice), and there are equal arguments that evidence of <random crime> ought to be able to be subpoenaed by appropriate authorities, once you work out which are the appropriate ones. But, to maintain their userbase confidence, they need to be seen to be resistant to pressures. At least drag their heals, citing plausible-yet-specious technical arguments.)


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