Gay Activism & Trans Rights

For the serious discussion of weighty matters and worldly issues. No off-topic posts allowed.

Moderators: Azrael, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Azrael
CATS. CATS ARE NICE.
Posts: 6491
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:16 am UTC
Location: Boston

Gay Activism & Trans Rights

Postby Azrael » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:31 pm UTC

This thread is a nearly self-contained discussion split from the Brendan Eich thread in N&A. The first few posts are still related to Eich and are left to provide context for how the thread switched topics. A handful of posts have been removed from the flow, but surprisingly few, all things considered. Please do not post anything specific to Brendan Eich in this new thread, or reply specifically to this or the three following posts. New readers will see very quickly that this a discussion regarding trans rights and the interaction with the larger gay-rights movement.

While this conversation started outside of SB, this split topic does not fit in well in N&A (as it's neither "news" or "article"), so it was moved here. You'll notice a tone that would not normally have been left unchecked here in SB. We're going to sort of pretend not to notice, and just let things simmer along. That being said, the moments in the thread where things came truly close to moderator action in N&A (you'll know them when you see them) need not be repeated.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And with that, here's the post that I've more or less arbitrarily decided was a good place to split this:

rieschen wrote:Whether or not we consider him a homophobe has very little bearing on what kind of consequences we think he should suffer - those consequences are all about the homophobic actions he took (i.e. his donation).

I'm a person who sees the current construct of marriage as very bad. :) I don't think it's possible to argue that stopping homosexual marriage to stop marriage altogether is acceptable, unless you find oppressing homosexuals to be acceptable - but I'd be curious to see anyone try.

User avatar
Immanuel
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:44 am UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Immanuel » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:22 pm UTC

rieschen wrote:Whether or not we consider him a homophobe has very little bearing on what kind of consequences we think he should suffer - those consequences are all about the homophobic actions he took (i.e. his donation).


Again, you are assuming that supporting a procreation-oriented vision of marriage over one that isn't make him bad. This is nonsensical and blatantly intolerant, particularly since SSM supporters are not proposing an additional social contract, they are proposing to redefine an existing one. Does the lack of support for a polygamous redefinition of marriage makes people "oppress" the "basic rights" of anyone who want a n-sided relationship?

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:40 pm UTC

Immanuel wrote:
rieschen wrote:Whether or not we consider him a homophobe has very little bearing on what kind of consequences we think he should suffer - those consequences are all about the homophobic actions he took (i.e. his donation).


Again, you are assuming that supporting a procreation-oriented vision of marriage over one that isn't make him bad. This is nonsensical and blatantly intolerant, particularly since SSM supporters are not proposing an additional social contract, they are proposing to redefine an existing one. Does the lack of support for a polygamous redefinition of marriage makes people "oppress" the "basic rights" of anyone who want a n-sided relationship?


Yes.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
setzer777
Good questions sometimes get stupid answers
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:24 am UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:26 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Immanuel wrote:
rieschen wrote:Whether or not we consider him a homophobe has very little bearing on what kind of consequences we think he should suffer - those consequences are all about the homophobic actions he took (i.e. his donation).


Again, you are assuming that supporting a procreation-oriented vision of marriage over one that isn't make him bad. This is nonsensical and blatantly intolerant, particularly since SSM supporters are not proposing an additional social contract, they are proposing to redefine an existing one. Does the lack of support for a polygamous redefinition of marriage makes people "oppress" the "basic rights" of anyone who want a n-sided relationship?


Yes.


Ha, succinct and to the point. It's funny to me how the "slippery slope" towards polygamy assumes that everyone agrees that non-monogamous relationships shouldn't be allowed.
Meaux_Pas wrote:We're here to go above and beyond.

Too infinity
of being an arsehole

T-Form
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:16 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby T-Form » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:16 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:Ha, succinct and to the point. It's funny to me how the "slippery slope" towards polygamy assumes that everyone agrees that non-monogamous relationships shouldn't be allowed.

It's like that one time I asked an MP who was pushing a bill to legalise same-sex marriage why she wasn't doing anything for poly relationships... and was greeted with the frothiest response than I'd ever seen from a supposedly progressive person (apparently polyamory is abusive, no different from incest or bestiality! And bigamy is against the law, and the law clearly can't be changed by the people whose job it is to change the laws!). So yeah, as a result of that I'm anti-gay-marriage (rather than merely irritated by it); the people pushing the hardest for it, the monogamous middle-class white cisgays, are obviously trying gain something at the expense of the rest of us. Anyone who thinks they'll come back for the more oppressed queer people once they've joined the oppressor classes is deluding themselves. Also marriage is a bit shit anyway.

All that said, amending a constitution to ban gay marriage is pretty fucked up, I'm glad that Eich is gone (and that he had the sense to leave early enough in the piece to avoid a protracted boycott, I'm no fan of the other browsers), and to be honest I suspect a lot of the hostility toward the boycott comes from that fear that people get when less privileged people are being politically effective.

User avatar
setzer777
Good questions sometimes get stupid answers
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:24 am UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:29 pm UTC

For some reason "I pick battles I think I'll win" isn't considered a polite or acceptable response to a lot of people.
Meaux_Pas wrote:We're here to go above and beyond.

Too infinity
of being an arsehole

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:30 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:For some reason "I pick battles I think I'll win" isn't considered a polite or acceptable response to a lot of people.


It comes up an awful lot in politics, though. Was this a public or private forum? Because you might get a different answer if it's just you vs the cameras.

User avatar
setzer777
Good questions sometimes get stupid answers
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:24 am UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:33 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
setzer777 wrote:For some reason "I pick battles I think I'll win" isn't considered a polite or acceptable response to a lot of people.


It comes up an awful lot in politics, though. Was this a public or private forum? Because you might get a different answer if it's just you vs the cameras.


Oh, absolutely. You're just not allowed to be honest about it for some reason.
Meaux_Pas wrote:We're here to go above and beyond.

Too infinity
of being an arsehole

T-Form
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:16 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby T-Form » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:54 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:For some reason "I pick battles I think I'll win" isn't considered a polite or acceptable response to a lot of people.

In my experience it's actually pretty much the standard liberal response whenever trans women object to being repeatedly fucked over by the cisgays (and it's a general pattern, so yeah, a lot of people are not at all impressed by it). I reckon it's actually worse than the frothy bigoted responses - I'd rather deal with an enemy who is open about hating me than waste my time and energy trying to herd a bunch of cowardly fair-weather friends. Besides, it usually comes with a side-helping of "you're next in the queue" - if that's actually credible, then an audit should show that trans women are owed at least a few dozen campaigns (and trans women of colour should be owed like a hundred).

Besides, the "battles I can win" thing doesn't really fly, at least in this country, because gay marriage passed with no significant public opposition. If people aren't angry about what you're doing, then you are clearly in a position to make more ambitious demands.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:09 pm UTC

T-Form wrote:cisgays
I've never heard this term, and from a chemistry perspective, don't understand it. What does it mean?
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26529
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:10 pm UTC

Cis as in cisgendered, as in not trans*.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:13 pm UTC

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Brace » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:28 pm UTC

This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:02 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:34 pm UTC

Brace wrote:"Oppressed" gays are potential political capital. "Liberated" gays represent not only the death of a substantial portion of very limited existing trans political capital, but the growth of opposition. Therefore, the reason it's immoral for gays to marry is because it's immoral to allow millions of people to go to the gas chambers.


And there, you've lost me. I assume that you are parodying someone else's argument, perhaps? T-Form's?

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Brace » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:36 pm UTC

This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:02 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
setzer777
Good questions sometimes get stupid answers
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:24 am UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:37 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Brace wrote:"Oppressed" gays are potential political capital. "Liberated" gays represent not only the death of a substantial portion of very limited existing trans political capital, but the growth of opposition. Therefore, the reason it's immoral for gays to marry is because it's immoral to allow millions of people to go to the gas chambers.


And there, you've lost me. I assume that you are parodying someone else's argument, perhaps? T-Form's?


If that's what you think, you haven't read enough of Brace's posts. She holds a very uncommon moral framework.
Meaux_Pas wrote:We're here to go above and beyond.

Too infinity
of being an arsehole

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:41 pm UTC

Brace wrote:No. I was just afraid somebody might mistake T-Form for a sock puppet, so I responded by cranking up the polemics to distinguish myself. It is the gist of my perspective, though. Why do you think I like guns so much?


Ah, gotcha, the principle of "we all need to work together to protect each other's freedoms", I take it? The last sentence just seemed like a bit of a leap, I wasn't sure of how the dots were connecting.

That said, yeah...we can always divide into smaller groups that squabble with each other. In the end, for sufficiently detailed views, everyone is a minority of one. Alliance-building is the only way to accomplish anything.

User avatar
setzer777
Good questions sometimes get stupid answers
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:24 am UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:52 pm UTC

T-Form wrote:
setzer777 wrote:For some reason "I pick battles I think I'll win" isn't considered a polite or acceptable response to a lot of people.

In my experience it's actually pretty much the standard liberal response whenever trans women object to being repeatedly fucked over by the cisgays (and it's a general pattern, so yeah, a lot of people are not at all impressed by it). I reckon it's actually worse than the frothy bigoted responses - I'd rather deal with an enemy who is open about hating me than waste my time and energy trying to herd a bunch of cowardly fair-weather friends. Besides, it usually comes with a side-helping of "you're next in the queue" - if that's actually credible, then an audit should show that trans women are owed at least a few dozen campaigns (and trans women of colour should be owed like a hundred).

Besides, the "battles I can win" thing doesn't really fly, at least in this country, because gay marriage passed with no significant public opposition. If people aren't angry about what you're doing, then you are clearly in a position to make more ambitious demands.


Do you think that's really an honest response coming from the cisgays towards the transgays and transstraights (transheteros?)? In the case of trans people being fucked over the more honest excuse might be "I mostly care about my own group, and I'm not willing to lower our chances of meeting our goals for the sake of a much smaller group I care less about".

In the case of an MP I think "I try to only fight battles I'll win" would be an honest (and unpopular) response - politically it might be better for one's own image and political power to try to only fight battles you'll most likely win.

Edit: I suppose this is getting more off topic. Then again, the main topic is an eternal cycle of the same arguments and rebuttals page after page.

Tyndmyr wrote:That said, yeah...we can always divide into smaller groups that squabble with each other. In the end, for sufficiently detailed views, everyone is a minority of one. Alliance-building is the only way to accomplish anything.


I think Brace's argument is more that cisgays can probably achieve their goals without trans people, but not vice-versa, and if they do they are likely to care even less about trans issues than they already do. Therefore it's important that they not succeed in their goals, so that they can hopefully be used to help trans rights.
Meaux_Pas wrote:We're here to go above and beyond.

Too infinity
of being an arsehole

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26529
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:09 pm UTC

It's not as common a term to be sure, but I'd guess "transhet" would be the conventional term, as I've definitely seen "cishet" around the interblags.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
setzer777
Good questions sometimes get stupid answers
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:24 am UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:11 pm UTC

Oh, yeah, "het" definitely rolls off the tongue better than "hetero".
Meaux_Pas wrote:We're here to go above and beyond.

Too infinity
of being an arsehole

T-Form
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:16 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby T-Form » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:25 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:Do you think that's really an honest response coming from the cisgays towards the transgays and transstraights (transheteros?)? In the case of trans people being fucked over the more honest excuse might be "I mostly care about my own group, and I'm not willing to lower our chances of meeting our goals for the sake of a much smaller group I care less about".

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the real motivation (though the "much smaller group" part might turn out to be inaccurate). The "battles we can win"/"don't worry, you're next" stuff is pretty much a mix of lying to us so they can get away with what they're doing, and lying to themselves because their self-image relies on the idea that they are good and progressive people (and they generally have at least some idea that they're doing something wrong). It doesn't really matter whether or not they actually believe they'll come back for us - history has shown that they won't, and their word is worthless at this point.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:28 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:That said, yeah...we can always divide into smaller groups that squabble with each other. In the end, for sufficiently detailed views, everyone is a minority of one. Alliance-building is the only way to accomplish anything.


I think Brace's argument is more that cisgays can probably achieve their goals without trans people, but not vice-versa, and if they do they are likely to care even less about trans issues than they already do. Therefore it's important that they not succeed in their goals, so that they can hopefully be used to help trans rights.


The fact that the gay rights movement persistently throws trans folks under the bus is legitimately the only good reason I can think of to be anything other than supportive of the goal of equal rights for gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. And while I don't see the utility in opposing same-sex marriage for that reason, I understand how someone sufficiently pissed off could see otherwise.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
setzer777
Good questions sometimes get stupid answers
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:24 am UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:44 pm UTC

T-Form wrote:The "battles we can win"/"don't worry, you're next" stuff is pretty much a mix of lying to us so they can get away with what they're doing, and lying to themselves because their self-image relies on the idea that they are good and progressive people (and they generally have at least some idea that they're doing something wrong).


Is it even the former at all? Do LGB people need T people's support (and would they be significantly affected by their opposition?) to achieve their ends?
Meaux_Pas wrote:We're here to go above and beyond.

Too infinity
of being an arsehole

User avatar
Azrael
CATS. CATS ARE NICE.
Posts: 6491
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:16 am UTC
Location: Boston

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Azrael » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:58 pm UTC

Brace wrote:"Oppressed" gays are potential political capital. "Liberated" gays represent not only the death of a substantial portion of very limited existing trans political capital, but the growth of opposition. Therefore, the reason it's immoral for gays to marry is because it's immoral to allow millions of people to go to the gas chambers.

An analogy: I don't want $LargeMinority to be overcome systematic racism, because if they do, the effort to help $OtherMinority will fail. Plus, the $OtherMinority situation will get worse.

Or maybe not the last sentence? I really don't follow the 'growth of opposition' bit. And I certainly don't get the assumption that the second effort is doomed to failure.

Anyhow, I'm not going to point out anything you don't already know, but making that statement requires an unusually specific sense of self-entitlement. You're saying they shouldn't get what they want unless they also help you get what you want. Why does that group owe you that? Shouldn't the demand for equality be directed that the people enforcing the inequality (i.e. larger society)? I'm all for systematic equality, but requiring progressive growth to be simultaneous and entirely leveled? That's like complaining how unfair it is that your older sister got a car when she graduated, and all you got that day was an ice cream at the party.

I can get the extra anger towards a group that you feel should know better -- but that doesn't make them specifically responsible for the success of your movement. It strikes me as almost a delegation of your self-determination? Nor does it change the fact that you're doing this odd, around-the-back victim blaming. Or at least, vehemently targeting another symptom rather than anything nearly resembling a cause.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:09 am UTC

Azrael wrote:Or maybe not the last sentence? I really don't follow the 'growth of opposition' bit.


Brace is, I think, referring to the fact that once people "get theirs" they tend to be much more willing to side with the status quo, so therefore letting cis gay people become part of "the establishment" means more people protecting said establishment from everyone who hasn't been let in yet.

Kindof like what happened with the irish in the US, where they went from "oppressed racial minority" to "part of the white supremacist establishment, because they're really good at being anti-black and we're very impressed"
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Azrael
CATS. CATS ARE NICE.
Posts: 6491
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:16 am UTC
Location: Boston

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Azrael » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:23 am UTC

Belial wrote:
Azrael wrote:Or maybe not the last sentence? I really don't follow the 'growth of opposition' bit.
Brace is, I think, referring to the fact that once people "get theirs" they tend to be much more willing to side with the status quo, so therefore letting cis gay people become part of "the establishment" means more people protecting said establishment from everyone who hasn't been let in yet.

Alright. I'm not sure I agree, but at least I see it.

It seems excessively worst-case / overly pessimistic? The gay rights movement is made up of more than just (warning: terrible terminology) 'self-interested' gay people -- those people who might flip once their situation has changed. Sure, some gay people might -- but you've already identified that some portion of the gay-rights movements is already anti-trans.

So for things to get worse, you'd need this odd calculus where the number of [non-progressive not-already-anti-trans gay people] switch because 'they got theirs' plus the number of [progressively minded straight-cis people] who only care about gay-rights (call them 'cause du jour, not but that cause') each times their relative ambivalence minus the amount of wood a woodchuck could chuck...

Ok, sure. There will be some (statistically significant?) number of people who become more actively anti-trans. But using that to predicate the position that the trans-rights movement would fail? Seems unsupportable in the "ah, but that specific straw will break the camel's back" kind of way.

And I know it's entirely shitty to say "wait your turn" (and I am emphatically not saying that) but doesn't the same historical progression cited regarding the Irish also extend to suggest that the trans-rights movement can't really be eternally doomed to fail just because $OtherGroup succeeded?

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:38 am UTC

Oh, I mean, I agree. The way to do it is to support all equality causes and call out anyone who fails to do likewise.

I was just trying to clarify before things got weird.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Azrael
CATS. CATS ARE NICE.
Posts: 6491
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:16 am UTC
Location: Boston

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Azrael » Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:46 am UTC

Belial wrote:Oh, I mean, I agree. The way to do it is to support all equality causes and call out anyone who fails to do likewise.

I was just trying to clarify before things got weird.

Where weird is 'call out one specific less-than-equal group who is not doing a good job supporting your other, separate such group and demand that they either coat-tail you or fail?

T-Form
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:16 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby T-Form » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:03 am UTC

Belial wrote: And while I don't see the utility in opposing same-sex marriage for that reason, I understand how someone sufficiently pissed off could see otherwise.

As I see it, not standing up to them means nothing is going to change for the rest of us. There's a history of this - for example, there was at least one bill that would have legalised sex between men, but set a higher age of consent (21) for all same-sex-fucking than for opposite-sex-fucking, which was rejected by a majority of the queer community. The people pushing the bill were mostly middle-aged gay men who would have been quite happy to set the age at 30 or 40 if that was what it took to pass it; since they got smacked down, we eventually got a law with equal ages of consent. If the original bill had passed, then amending it to make the ages equal would have been a hell of a lot harder - the opposing discourse would have been all "homosexuals want to have sex with your teenage kids", and the old gay men would have opposed any change due to a fear of backlash. Being nice about it and staying neutral just lets them gain ground while we stay still, leaving us with more opponents in the long run.

It's actually been worse than that with gay marriage; while the bill was before parliament, the groups with a pro-marriage agenda were actively setting out to assimilate or squash all other queer activism. I was involved in a not-very-radical-but-left-of-the-marriage-groups queer group around this time, and not only did the pro-marriage group type out a page-long list (I shit you not) of things they didn't want us to do/say/chant (a lot of it was stuff like "don't mention polyamory", "don't call the opponents bigots", etc) on the march that they organised (though we did a lot of the actual work - placard-making etc), but they also got very aggressive about what we were doing and saying on our own marches that had nothing to do with marriage. Over the course of the campaign I got a lot more shit from my supposed (pro-marriage) friends than from anyone who opposed marriage (and I helped set up the pro-marriage group in the first place; this stuff started well before I took an anti-marriage position), and it did proportionately more damage. The process of cisgays getting things like marriage is actively harmful to us unless we're getting what we need as part of the deal, at the same time or earlier.

setzer777 wrote:
T-Form wrote:The "battles we can win"/"don't worry, you're next" stuff is pretty much a mix of lying to us so they can get away with what they're doing, and lying to themselves because their self-image relies on the idea that they are good and progressive people (and they generally have at least some idea that they're doing something wrong).


Is it even the former at all? Do LGB people need T people's support (and would they be significantly affected by their opposition?) to achieve their ends?

I don't know. They certainly have benefited a lot from trans people; the modern gay rights movement was started by (and subsequently stolen from) trans women of colour. Whether they actually *need* trans people today is another matter - they'd have to do a lot more work without us for sure, but I don't know that that's enough. They might be in trouble if we could get a clear oppositional message out though, 'cause then the liberal cishets get mixed messages from queer people and don't know which ones to support, and if they're split then the right wing bastards will win against the liberal cisgay cause of the day. It probably *is* possible to get that message out since the right, who have the power to make that happen, would make those short-term gains from it. So basically yes, but we have to do this stupid brinkmanship thing to make it work :(

Azrael wrote:Where weird is 'call out one specific less-than-equal group who is not doing a good job supporting your other, separate such group and demand that they either coat-tail you or fail?

See the thing here is that even if the interests of the T are separate from those of the LGB, a hell of a lot of trans people are also queer in terms of sexuality - personally, I am losing out in the short term when gay rights stuff fails, but in the long run I lose more if it succeeds while trans rights stuff fails. So it's really not so much about two separate groups as one group that's been hijacked by the cisgay faction.

Also I should probably clarify that I'm less worried that trans rights will never be properly recognised, I'm more worried that we won't get very far along that track until long after I'm dead (and unless we change things, that progress would probably be achieved by screwing over someone else, probably intersex people).

User avatar
Azrael
CATS. CATS ARE NICE.
Posts: 6491
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:16 am UTC
Location: Boston

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Azrael » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:07 am UTC

T-Form wrote:...personally, I am losing out in the short term when gay rights stuff fails, but in the long run I lose more if it succeeds while trans rights stuff fails

If the reasoning is different than what Belial explained earlier, can you explain why you lose more in [gay-rights succeeds, trans-rights fail] compared to [gay fail, trans fail]?

Because other than that earlier point, [fail-fail] seems to be no different except that your misery has company, and in company you hope for greater chance of success. Which is sorta completely contrary to the bifurcation where they aren't fighting for you. So it really just becomes that your misery has company, and that sucks. If your hope is that enough time passes in [fail-fail] that they do start representing you, in which case you both succeed together, that can also sucks when they are on the cusp of one victory (marriage is only one victory) and you are actively against that happening. Hoping to deny them a right until they coat-tail you up? That's ... ug.

And while lots of T are also LGB, lots of minorities are women, and I'm not sure there'd be much logic in saying that women shouldn't have gotten the vote until the civil rights act passed.

T-Form
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:16 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby T-Form » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:29 am UTC

If there's a split in terms of rights (or wealth, or probably other things), and I'm on the side that's worse off, I'm better off materially and socially if there are more people on the same side as me. If the cisgays jump to the privileged side, there's that much less of a community for the rest of us. Admittedly the cisgay side of it is becoming more of a poisoned chalice over time, but that's largely because they are making progress on their issues, so we're in the same boat less and less - their position enables them to take more and give less. As their situation gets better, they not only take a lot of community resources with them, but they can also take hold of a larger share of the resources that should be supporting us all. Double-fail leaves me with a much bigger space to exist in than gay-win/trans-fail.
Last edited by T-Form on Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:32 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Brace » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:30 am UTC

This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:02 am UTC, edited 3 times in total.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
Azrael
CATS. CATS ARE NICE.
Posts: 6491
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:16 am UTC
Location: Boston

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Azrael » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:34 am UTC

T-Form wrote:As their situation gets better, they not only take a lot of community resources with them, but they can also take hold of a larger share of the resources that should be supporting us all. Double-fail leaves me with a much bigger space to exist in than gay-win/trans-fail.

Ok, so it's misery loves company because hopefully that company will help us all win. Which might only be selfish, but there's the underlined part. People's resources dedicated to improving their own circumstances are not common goods. There is no "should be supporting us all". That's coat-tailing. That's demanding women don't vote until segregation is ended.


Brace wrote:Not at all. I'm just saying the practical consequences of one without the other involve a holocaust. How you proceed from there depends solely on whether you view that as bad.

Gays being allowed to marry will result in a trans holocaust? I'm interested in how that absolute sense of assurance fits with states where gays have had the right to marry for a decade.
Brace wrote:Transsexuals = children, in comparison to our mature adult gay siblings. Gotcha.

That extension is bullshit, and you know it. If that's what you're going to bring to the discussion, your anger is nothing but a self-fulfilling prophecy.

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Brace » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:39 am UTC

This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:01 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6544
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby sardia » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:40 am UTC

That's pretty harsh outlook on others, you got there. Considering how small a block you think your group is, doesn't that mean you're stuck with nothing? Cuz I'm pretty sure the Indians demanding all the land back aren't getting very far compared to the ones that are operating casinos. And yes, you're the Indians that don't get the casino benefits in this metaphor that describes your view of the situation.

User avatar
Azrael
CATS. CATS ARE NICE.
Posts: 6491
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:16 am UTC
Location: Boston

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Azrael » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:41 am UTC

Brace wrote:Now see, that's victim blaming. But it's ok I guess, because you're gay.

Just like how you were wrong the last time you thought that your version of my words meant I was a conservative republican, you're wrong again.

T-Form
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:16 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby T-Form » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:42 am UTC

Azrael wrote:I'm all for systematic equality, but requiring progressive growth to be simultaneous and entirely leveled? That's like complaining how unfair it is that your older sister got a car when she graduated, and all you got that day was an ice cream at the party.


Transsexuals = children, in comparison to our mature adult gay siblings. Gotcha.[/quote]
Wow, I completely missed that one, what a fucked-up thing to say. Especially since the cisgays gained their "older sister" status by fucking us over.

Azrael wrote:
T-Form wrote:As their situation gets better, they not only take a lot of community resources with them, but they can also take hold of a larger share of the resources that should be supporting us all. Double-fail leaves me with a much bigger space to exist in than gay-win/trans-fail.

Ok, so it's misery loves company because hopefully that company will help us all win. Which might only be selfish, but there's the underlined part. People's resources dedicated to improving their own circumstances are not common goods. There is no "should be supporting us all". That's coat-tailing. That's demanding women don't vote until segregation is ended.

When I say resources here I mean social resources, not political resources. The advancement of cisgays enables them to turn queer resources - resources created by and for gay and trans people alike - into gay resources. It's less misery loves company and more they're stealing our fucking stuff on the way out.

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Brace » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:43 am UTC

This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:01 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
Azrael
CATS. CATS ARE NICE.
Posts: 6491
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:16 am UTC
Location: Boston

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Azrael » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:49 am UTC

T-Form wrote:Wow, I completely missed that one, what a fucked-up thing to say. Especially since the cisgays gained their "older sister" status by fucking us over.


Gained status *by* fucking you over? That's a link you haven't made -- gained status *while* fucking you over? Sure. And I'm sorry for the child comparison. My point stands with either the comparison to holding women back until segregation was over or complaining that it's not fair that your twin sister got a fat check on her wedding day when all you got was to go to the party

T-Form wrote:
Azrael wrote:
T-Form wrote:As their situation gets better, they not only take a lot of community resources with them, but they can also take hold of a larger share of the resources that should be supporting us all. Double-fail leaves me with a much bigger space to exist in than gay-win/trans-fail.

Ok, so it's misery loves company because hopefully that company will help us all win. Which might only be selfish, but there's the underlined part. People's resources dedicated to improving their own circumstances are not common goods. There is no "should be supporting us all". That's coat-tailing. That's demanding women don't vote until segregation is ended.

When I say resources here I mean social resources, not political resources. The advancement of cisgays enables them to turn queer resources - resources created by and for gay and trans people alike - into gay resources. It's less misery loves company and more they're stealing our fucking stuff on the way out.

Are they stealing your stuff, or just taking the stuff they did? I'm missing the link beyond LGB and T being in a common acronym that suggests that gay people getting one part of what they want means that they're stealing the efforts of trans people. Ok, to a degree I get the idea that you thought it was one big family, so were working to help everyone. But if they were working for their own self-interests, achieving that goal isn't stealing your stuff. It's the actualization of their stuff.

Brace wrote:So gay-centric transphobia really is reaching the point of mainstream fashion. Thanks for assuaging my concerns.

I equally support LGB and T rights. I just don't understand the stance that a win for LGB is by definition a lose for T.

If that means that I sport whatever 'gay-centric transphobia' means to you, I'm going to disagree. But I'm not going to mind what your personal opinion of me is, nor attempt to prove what I feel to you, specifically. Because, damn, when asked how your holocaust prediction squared with a decade's worth of gay marriage, you just doubled down. You're loudly and voluntarily staked your claim in non-rational space. Please enjoy.

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Brace » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:00 am UTC

This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:01 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus


Return to “Serious Business”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests