1002: "Game AIs"

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Proginoskes
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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Proginoskes » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:31 pm UTC

lightvector wrote:Othello/Reversi is not solved, although it might be within reach before too long. If there is some powerful new trick or algorithm or optimization discovered that gains a fundamental speedup, it might be doable right now. Otherwise with no such improvements, from what I can find out online, there are still an estimated several orders of magnitude difference between solving Reversi and solving Checkers (maybe somewhere between 10^4 and 10^8).


The people who "solved" checkers said that Othello/Reversi would probably be the next well-known game to be solved by computer.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby atrahasis » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:03 am UTC

meerta wrote:Actually I don't think you should say even now that chess computers are consistently beating the top humans, not as conclusively as one would like to be able to say it at least. The last of these matches was between Vladimir Kramnik and Deep Fritz in 2006, with four draws, and two wins to the computer.

But it appears Kramnik missed a win in the the first game, and in the second game, from a probably winning position, he made probably the biggest blunder ever made by a World Champion, missing checkmate by Deep Fritz on its next move!

Considering the brute processing power of Deep Fritz, and taking into account the mistakes, it doesn't feel like a conclusive loss for humanity, which is astonishing.

You're saying that if a human makes no mistakes at all it can't be beaten?

How incisive.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby meerta » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:37 am UTC

No.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Armadillo Al » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:30 am UTC

DavidMTaylor wrote:Just a quick point of order on the status of "Jeopardy" ...

Ken Jennings, the reigning top human player at Jeopardy, as brilliant and entertaining as he is on a daily basis (@KenJennings), was demolished by Skynet IBM Watson in an epic competition. Jeopardy has been conquered for inhuman-kind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Jennings#IBM_Challenge

While Watson thrashed Ken (and Brad) on the first day of the two-day total points affair, Ken kept the scores close enough on the second day that, had the two been scored separately, Watson would have been required to get Final correct.

Since they had to build a whole separate studio in the IBM facilities to accomodate Watson, the buzzer timing was slightly off from what is usually required, and Ken needed time to adjust to it. Were the match held in Sony's studios, I would suspect the scores would have been close enough that it would be impossible to declare Watson unbeatable (as he clearly was not on the final day of the exhibition match).


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The throwing of the ping pong ball starts at about 00:28.

You see my friend Aaron at 1:48.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby lightvector » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:21 pm UTC

Proginoskes wrote:
lightvector wrote:Othello/Reversi is not solved, although it might be within reach before too long. If there is some powerful new trick or algorithm or optimization discovered that gains a fundamental speedup, it might be doable right now. Otherwise with no such improvements, from what I can find out online, there are still an estimated several orders of magnitude difference between solving Reversi and solving Checkers (maybe somewhere between 10^4 and 10^8).


The people who "solved" checkers said that Othello/Reversi would probably be the next well-known game to be solved by computer.


Right, if "well-known" includes mostly just the top classic abstract strategy games, then there aren't any well-known (deterministic) abstract strategy games whose complexity lies precisely between that of Checkers and Reversi. Most games are either easier by many orders of magnitude, such as Connect 4, or harder by many orders of magnitude, like Chess.

Reversi's likely the next "major" game to be solved, but that doesn't mean it will be solved tomorrow. There is a slim chance it might, but more likely it will take a while.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby W3ird_N3rd » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:39 am UTC

pmwalk wrote:I was kind of disappointed The Game wasn't somewhere on the list. Although I have to say, Calvinball is pretty difficult. Still, I spent quite awhile trying to decide where The Game should sit in the chart before I realized I'd lost at least 5 times, and decided to give up on trying to place it.

I was thinking the same thing! Lost too, though.. Randall's forum harddrive/SSD, however, has now lost permanently!

How do AIs fare nowadays at "I spy with my little eye"?

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby baf » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:07 am UTC

muntoo wrote:Computers have a higher probability of winning against humans in a Snakes and Ladders tournament if there are more computers than humans. And since computers are easier to create than humans...


This has already been disputed several times, but I'd just like to add: No one has ever created a computer accidentally.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby pbacoustic » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:38 pm UTC

"Calvinball" - I love it..............


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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby marshmallowSDA » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:27 am UTC

Starcraft and Counter-Strike (SC and CS from here) definitely haven't been solved by AI and games like them probably won't be until there are machines very close to us. You can give a CS bot an aimhack and a wallhack and a can't-get-flashed hack but that's blatant cheating. Comparing these to board games or chess/checkers is a bit of a mistake since with the other games the only thing that matters is the raw output. Moving a pawn a certain way doesn't increase its effectiveness by 12%. SC/CS AI bypass the intended interface of the entire game, the mouse, keyboard, and to a lesser extent the monitor to achieve feats that are physically impossible and usually against the rules anyway and would result in bans if any human emulated them.

CS is also much more complicated game than "hur me shoot you die" and I'm not aware of any effort like with SC to make an AI team that can win in a 5v5 tournament. I would be quite interested in seeing such a thing. There's a money system, feints/fakes and dozens of strategies per map that interact with each other in subtle ways, throwing all the types of grenades in the most effective way, and that tricky teamwork thing. Programming AI how to use grenades on all the different walls from different angles depending on where you want it to go off would be a nightmare. Or trying to make decisions dependent on the intent of the other team.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Fritzlein » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:11 pm UTC

I would like to send Randall a complimentary copy of my book entitled "Beginning Arimaa". Does he want it? Where do I mail it?

Thanks,
Fritz Juhnke

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby boyceaz » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:19 am UTC

If memory serves, Amanda Donohoe is the reigning human champion of Snakes and Ladders.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby OP Tipping » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:58 pm UTC

Would this be an appropriate place to air my Calvinball related yonkoma?

http://cheezburger.com/Daz_Voz/lolz/View/5718543360

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Glenn Magus Harvey » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:41 pm UTC

I am disappointed that it took until the second page of posts for someone to finally give Randall a penalty card.

That said, I am too lazy to look further; please take penalty cards that are due to you.

*hands people a pile*

And yes, I love the card game named after a certain Chinese dictator. A good friend and I really like to play it in such a way that doesn't encourage hazing but instead encourages all sorts of creative rule-making. The fun in that is to find out how all sorts of new rules--with extra hands, extra discard piles, and extra conditions--interact with each other.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby dcbandicoot » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:16 pm UTC

dragondave wrote:
PCal wrote:Since its a game with luck it should be impossible for the computer to get a 100% win rate over. A over 50% win is still surprising to me.


Tournament Scrabble has no probabilistic features* - everyone has exactly the same tiles and makes moves on exactly the same board; only the person who wins each round gets to place 'their' word on the board everyone plays on for the next round.

Domino14: Can you provide a reference? It would be interesting to see whether they played Tournament or not.

* Other than "what tiles come up next turn", of course.


This is only true of Tournament Scrabble in France (afaik). The rules of Tournament Scrabble in the USA (and the rest of, or vast majority of the rest of the world, anyway) are 2-player scrabble against one another. To that end, Quackle also plays the way the World plays, and assumedly this comic refers to that form- otherwise, Tournament Scrabble would be "solved" by Quackle.

The consensus of most Tournament Scrabble plays is that Nigel Richards is a stronger player than Quackle. Quackle has two main flaws. The first is that it routinely rules out superior plays as inferior because what it does is analyze a single spot and rules out players that a worse based on its "superleave" file- that is, it has a rating for every "leave" possible based on how many points you are likely to recoup in the ensuing turns with those tiles on the rack.

Here is a great position to see the concept of "leave"s at work: http://cross-tables.com/annotated.php?u=9979#15

This is based on early and middle-game play. As the game progresses, the computer "sees" more tiles - but doesn't adjust its "leave" valuations to adjust which plays it rules out. At the end of the game, it is often considerably harder to bingo, but there are more scoring hot spots on the board- so higher-point tiles, except the Q sans U/I- very hard to spot on tight boards- become worth much more.

It also fails to change its leave valuations for ruling out plays when the bag is vowel-heavy or consonant-heavy. For example, see here: http://cross-tables.com/annotated.php?u=9979#19

It also has a few pre-endgame flaws which I won't profess to know the specifics of- I've heard many-a-rumor. The point, more or less, is that top players know the whole dictionary and can play with few flaws- and Quackle is not yet at that level, though very close. I'd put it closer to where poker is now.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby OP Tipping » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:48 am UTC

French Tournament Scrabble is awesome.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Sophokles » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:55 pm UTC

Surely I'm not the only one who sees Numberwang written all over this? I imagine the AI would blow away the human competition until a Numberscoff round, placing its difficulty near calvinball.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby domino14 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:29 am UTC

dragondave wrote:
PCal wrote:Since its a game with luck it should be impossible for the computer to get a 100% win rate over. A over 50% win is still surprising to me.


Tournament Scrabble has no probabilistic features* - everyone has exactly the same tiles and makes moves on exactly the same board; only the person who wins each round gets to place 'their' word on the board everyone plays on for the next round.

Domino14: Can you provide a reference? It would be interesting to see whether they played Tournament or not.

* Other than "what tiles come up next turn", of course.


You're thinking about "Duplicate" Scrabble, which is only played in France, and is a ridiculous form of the game. In the rest of the world, tournament Scrabble is one-on-one matches. The player who did this is a top 10 player who logged all the games, and played 1-1 with the Quackle AI on "Championship Player" mode. I could play 10 games against it and probably win somewhere between 3 and 5 if you want to see.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Garrett » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:02 am UTC

So first of all, since this is my first post here, hello to everyone.

Now to cut to the chase. The topic of AI in non-chance games is very interesting and seeing chess and go put in here I can't help but to be a little disappointed in an omission of shogi in comic strip as well as in this whole topic. Is it that none of you are interested in this game or maybe there is just no metion worthy data on AI taking top players in shogi?

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Proginoskes » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:26 am UTC

Garrett wrote:So first of all, since this is my first post here, hello to everyone.


HELLO!!!

Now to cut to the chase. The topic of AI in non-chance games is very interesting and seeing chess and go put in here I can't help but to be a little disappointed in an omission of shogi in comic strip as well as in this whole topic. Is it that none of you are interested in this game or maybe there is just no metion worthy data on AI taking top players in shogi?


Let's see what Wikipedia says:

Shogi has the highest game complexity of all popular chess variants. Therefore, Shogi is the hardest of the popular chess variants in terms of programming the computer to beat the highest rated player. Computers have steadily improved in playing shogi since the 1970s. In 2007, champion Yoshiharu Habu estimated the strength of the 2006 world computer shogi champion Bonanza at the level of 2-dan shoreikai. Tools used by shogi programmers are the GUI Shogidokoro, shogi server Floodgate and the annual computer tournaments. The Japan Shogi Association prohibits professionals from playing computers in public without prior permission. After some 35 years of development, a computer finally beat a professional player on October 12, 2010, when the top ranked female champion Ichiyo Shimizu was beaten by the Akara2010 system in a game lasting just over 6 hours. On July 24, 2011, computer Shogi programs Bonanza and Akara crushed the amateur team of Kosaku and Shinoda in 2 games. The allotted time for the amateurs was 1 hour and then 3 minutes per move. The allotted time for the computer was 25 minutes and then 10 seconds per move. The highest rated player on Shogi Club 24 is computer program Bonkras, rated 3335 on December 2, 2011.


So maybe a program will be able to beat any human at shogi in 10-20 years?

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Garrett
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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Garrett » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:22 pm UTC

Dang, I need to read wiki more thoroughly.

So, where should we put shogi on the comic strip? Before or after arimaa (because I guess go is undisputed champion)? Arimaa was specificaly made to be hard for AI. Starting with a pieces pattern of your choice, having four moves per turn and pushing/pulling a piece instead of simply capturing it undoubtedly increases difficulty. But does it compensate for bigger board, more pieces, ability to reuse captured pieces and optional promotion of pieces? I have little doubt that in few years starting patterns that are generally good, no matter the opponent pattern, will appear for arimaa (if there is no now). It is also quite young so there is a lack of high level opening and end game databases. So which one will be harder for AI to learn consistent competitive play?
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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Proginoskes » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:56 am UTC

Garrett wrote:So, where should we put shogi on the comic strip? Before or after arimaa (because I guess go is undisputed champion)? Arimaa was specificaly made to be hard for AI.


Omar Syed is offering a man-vs-machine challenge, but only until 2020 ... This suggests that it might be as difficult as suspected.

I think shogi should be put after Arimaa, and before Go. Between Arimaa and shogi is a good place for Crazyhouse, if you ignore Starcraft and Poker.

(Crazyhouse is a combination of chess and shogi; rules are as in chess, except captured pieces can be put back on the board in place of a move. "Bughouse" is a 2-board, 4-player version of Crazyhouse, usually played with chess clocks set at 5 minutes.)

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby SchighSchagh » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:03 am UTC

Randall forgot to include
Spoiler:
THE GAME
. Then again, it doesn't really fit in the chart. The only way computers can possibly do worse than humans is to acquire sentience because they obviously can't actually think about it without that. But once the hard problem of sentience is solved, computers will actually do much worse than humans for I suspect it would be as destructive as the "topological anomaly" Picard wanted to infect Hugh with to decimate the Borg.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:07 am UTC

SchighSchagh wrote:Randall forgot to include
Spoiler:
THE GAME
. Then again, it doesn't really fit in the chart. The only way computers can possibly do worse than humans is to acquire sentience because they obviously can't actually think about it without that. But once the hard problem of sentience is solved, computers will actually do much worse than humans for I suspect it would be as destructive as the "topological anomaly" Picard wanted to infect Hugh with to decimate the Borg.

Nonsense.

To continue your use of Star Trek examples, lets imagine Data. He is informed of the rules of the Game. He decides he wants to win. He writes a program which deletes all memory of The Game from his databanks and filters all future references to it from his perceptions.

When you order Data to forget something, he forgets completely and thoroughly. There was even an entire episode which hinged on this ability.
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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby SchighSchagh » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:24 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:He decides he wants to win.

You can't win the game. You can only lose.

Pfhorrest wrote:When you order Data to forget something, he forgets completely and thoroughly. There was even an entire episode which hinged on this ability.

Which episode are you referring to? Surely not "Clues"? He's trying to keep the knowledge away from everybody else, but he certainly doesn't forget or stop thinking about it.

Also, what happens when Data discovers the filtering subroutine you propose? Keep in mind, he is sentient and performs self-diagnostics pretty much every time somebody asks "how are you?". He begins erasing his memory? Then he will only be doomed to discover the subroutine again when he notices inexplicably lost computational cycles during a self-diagnostic! (Again, much like how the crew figures out wtf is going on in "Clues".)

Since you like ST themed arguments, let's not forget the good Voyager doctor! He got himself caught in an ethical catch-22 over his subjective choice to save Tom Paris's life when Voyager was first pulled into the Delta quadrant. The crew tried to wipe all his memory of it and hide the truth from him so he wouldn't get stuck being completely preoccupied by the incident again. The morale is that such schemes can never work because it is impossible to account for every possible way you may ever encounter a certain piece of information again. The possibilities are infinite, so dealing with them, like the hypothesized anti-Borg "spacial anomaly", would become increasingly demanding computationally, leading to an inevitable demise.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:01 am UTC

SchighSchagh wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:When you order Data to forget something, he forgets completely and thoroughly. There was even an entire episode which hinged on this ability.

Which episode are you referring to? Surely not "Clues"? He's trying to keep the knowledge away from everybody else, but he certainly doesn't forget or stop thinking about it.

You're right there. I was thinking of another episode as well, I can't recall which, where Picard emphasizes to someone else that if he orders Data never to divulge something, then the information is as good as lost. That's not quite the same as forgetting it, though.

Also, what happens when Data discovers the filtering subroutine you propose? Keep in mind, he is sentient and performs self-diagnostics pretty much every time somebody asks "how are you?". He begins erasing his memory? Then he will only be doomed to discover the subroutine again when he notices inexplicably lost computational cycles during a self-diagnostic! (Again, much like how the crew figures out wtf is going on in "Clues".)

He could retain memory of having intentionally created a program to remove and avoid memory of something, without remembering what it is that he has forgotten. Something to the effect of "Note to self: You intentionally erased one of your memories here, and did not wish your future self to investigate the matter further. Signed, --You."

I actually thought a similar solution could be workable in "Clues", although convincing the aliens of that might have been a tricky matter. The humans' memories could have been erased, and afterward Data could have informed the captain that there is a danger in approaching that star system, which poses no threat so long as it is not approached, and the only way to leave alive once approaching causes memory loss, and that he has been ordered by the captain not to divulge further details, with some authorization code from the captain for proof.
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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Eternal Density » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:09 am UTC

Now that I know what it is, I see no difficulty for an AI to win at Mornington Crescent, it just wouldn't be any fun.
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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby RaceBandit » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:20 am UTC

W3ird_N3rd (excerpt) wrote:I was thinking the same thing! Lost too, though.. Randall's forum harddrive/SSD, however, has now lost permanently!
This is why I now think Munroe missed the perfect opportunity to troll us all by putting "twenty dollars and my self-respect" below even Calvinball. Then again, even humans can't win unless they never know about this, so unless win rates are factored in, we could only outperform the AI by thinking about this as rarely as possible.

Using code such as this chat filter might help us, since people who don't know about this won't get the joke and therefore lose unintentionally.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby oldbushie » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:11 am UTC

Bit late, but relevant: http://www.aerobushentertainment.com/index.php?cat=games&id=2

I made Mao in Java for my Advanced AI final project a few years back. :D Just thought I'd mention it since I was catching up on XKCD.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby tckthomas » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:45 pm UTC

Proginoskes wrote:
Garrett wrote:So, where should we put shogi on the comic strip? Before or after arimaa (because I guess go is undisputed champion)? Arimaa was specificaly made to be hard for AI.


Omar Syed is offering a man-vs-machine challenge, but only until 2020 ... This suggests that it might be as difficult as suspected.

I think shogi should be put after Arimaa, and before Go. Between Arimaa and shogi is a good place for Crazyhouse, if you ignore Starcraft and Poker.

(Crazyhouse is a combination of chess and shogi; rules are as in chess, except captured pieces can be put back on the board in place of a move. "Bughouse" is a 2-board, 4-player version of Crazyhouse, usually played with chess clocks set at 5 minutes.)


This Arimaa player cannot disagree more. Omar placed that limit because he wants to have software beat humans, not just the hardware getting better and better. I agree that Shogi can be placed after Arimaa though. So far the top players are still able to beat computers easily, as they have a weak grasp on the strategy of Arimaa, which is very important, and also because of the large branching factor (roughly 13k unique moves). I think computers still have a long way to go.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Marian » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:20 pm UTC

srimech wrote:First thing I thought of was Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Can't post a url, but worth a google, it looks like computers have humans beaten on this one.


Not sure that counts because they cheat:

http://www.k2.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/fusion/Janken/index-e.html

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Kaiman » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:37 pm UTC

While Watson thrashed Ken (and Brad) on the first day of the two-day total points affair, Ken kept the scores close enough on the second day that, had the two been scored separately, Watson would have been required to get Final correct.

Since they had to build a whole separate studio in the IBM facilities to accomodate Watson, the buzzer timing was slightly off from what is usually required, and Ken needed time to adjust to it. Were the match held in Sony's studios, I would suspect the scores would have been close enough that it would be impossible to declare Watson unbeatable (as he clearly was not on the final day of the exhibition match).


There is honestly no way to fairly test things out in Jeopardy, as there is no way to balance the buzzer-pressing issue even if we manage to solve the differing means of inputting the question to the human & computer contestants. Let's theoretically say we created a computer that is the exact duplicate of Ken's knowledge - he knows exactly what Ken knows and no more, receives the information through audio processing and parases the language with the exact same command of English that Ken has, and takes the exact amount of time to locate said information as Ken does to process his thoughts and come up with a conclusion. Ken would never score a point. Every single time they both knew the answer, the computer would buzz in sooner.

A good friend and I really like to play it in such a way that doesn't encourage hazing but instead encourages all sorts of creative rule-making. The fun in that is to find out how all sorts of new rules--with extra hands, extra discard piles, and extra conditions--interact with each other.


Then you are the only people in the world who don't play it just to feel smugly superior about how the other people don't know things that haven't been communicated to them.

You're saying that if a human makes no mistakes at all it can't be beaten?


That is still up for debate. And it's not really provable because one cannot always know for a certain if a reasonable-looking move is a mistake or not.

There was a Star Trek episode (Peak Performance) that addressed this concept as well, for what it's worth.

Not sure about all of you guys, but my greatest hope is to see the day when a computer program can consistently beat the greatest humans at go (kind of like chess, currently). That is truly the day that AI will have been perfected.


On that day, there will still be a large number of strategy games that computers won't be able to win at. Go is relatively simple compared to some of the more niche hobby games out there.

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby pernishus » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:39 pm UTC

This Arimaa player cannot disagree more. Omar placed that limit because he wants to have software beat humans, not just the hardware getting better and better. I agree that Shogi can be placed after Arimaa though. So far the top players are still able to beat computers easily, as they have a weak grasp on the strategy of Arimaa, which is very important, and also because of the large branching factor (roughly 13k unique moves). I think computers still have a long way to go.


Update: Arimaa AI beat top humans in 2015 Arimaa Challenge. *sigh*

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Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby TranquilFury » Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:59 am UTC

No, you're not dead yet, little thread.

AlphaGo is currently
Spoiler:
2-0
in a 5 game series against Lee Sedol.
Match 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFr3K2DORc8
Match 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-GsfyVCBu0


Anyone know how the best poker bots are performing these days? I know starcraft AIs are still hopeless against humans.

Derek
Posts: 2169
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Derek » Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:01 am UTC

I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.

TranquilFury wrote:Anyone know how the best poker bots are performing these days? I know starcraft AIs are still hopeless against humans.

I think computers do well in heads up poker, but in a contest a year ago humans still won. Computers will probably beat us at that soon though.

I also like how this comic predicted the back-to-back Arimaa and Go breakthroughs.

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cyanyoshi
Posts: 378
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:30 am UTC

Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby cyanyoshi » Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:46 pm UTC

cyanyoshi wrote:Not sure about all of you guys, but my greatest hope is to see the day when a computer program can consistently beat the greatest humans at go (kind of like chess, currently). That is truly the day that AI will have been perfected.

Perhaps we should stop this before the robots take over the world or something...

mfb
Posts: 947
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:48 pm UTC

Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby mfb » Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:19 am UTC

Derek wrote:I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.

TranquilFury wrote:Anyone know how the best poker bots are performing these days? I know starcraft AIs are still hopeless against humans.

I think computers do well in heads up poker, but in a contest a year ago humans still won. Computers will probably beat us at that soon though.

I also like how this comic predicted the back-to-back Arimaa and Go breakthroughs.
AI wins poker: The game is not over yet, but the AI is leading so much that it will win.

Jeopardy 2011
Arimaa 2015
Go 2016
Poker 2017
IQ tests 2017
StarCraft is the last game left in the "computers still lose" list. 2017-2018?

duodecimus
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 12:25 pm UTC

Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby duodecimus » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:21 am UTC

Yo, I worked on a starcraft AI for a university project last year. Our tournament website: http://www.cs.mun.ca/~dchurchill/starcraftaicomp/

- The current implementation used in tournaments only allows the AI information that a truly perceptive player with perfect memory can aquire.
I.E. they know the map layout because fog of war isn't pitch black, but they only know the last location of a given unit. They still rely on worker scouting to find their opponents' base, and won't suddenly learn about new buildings until they see them.
They can see all stealth units, by the slight visual disturbance, but cannot see data such as Hp and upgrade level.

AI is very good at micro, but bad at strategy. The usual plan is to do an incredibly early rush followed by countering whatever the opponent is building. This often takes human players by surprise, as an AI can pull these out up to a minute before a player could, and is very strong with small skirmishes.

Last I checked, Ualbertabot could hold against very good human players by randomly choosing zealot rush, dark templar rush or a sort of dragoon/turtle midgame. The human player would have to correctly guess the strategy to counter it in time, and would often be unable to switch in time if a guess was wrong.

That said, My team got 2nd/11 place in the class and 4th/30 place vs the entries to the last Canadian tournament just by doing bugfixing, so maybe we haven't gotten that far after all.

mfb
Posts: 947
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:48 pm UTC

Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby mfb » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:21 pm UTC

Is computing power an issue?
How much does the AI learn in terms of strategy, and how much is it manual strategy input from humans?

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Moose Anus
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:12 pm UTC

Re: 1002: "Game AIs"

Postby Moose Anus » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:58 pm UTC

mfb wrote:Is computing power an issue?
How much does the AI learn in terms of strategy, and how much is it manual strategy input from humans?
Yes, with less computing power, AIs are forced to use simpler models and not look as far ahead as they would with more computing power.

AI is more-and-more headed for learning by themselves rather than having human directed strategies. They're generally good at figuring out tactics but not strategies, but when tactics build on other tactics, at some point they've figured out the whole thing.
Lemonade? ...Aww, ok.


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