0657: "Movie Narrative Charts"

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Ridcully
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Ridcully » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:33 pm UTC

Haha. Once again thank you randal for the awsome Comic!
I wonder if it will wind up in the store as a poster? I would buy it, absolutely no question lol.

After 6 times, primer has started to make a semblence of sense, still time travel is some weird sh*t.
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NorkNork
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby NorkNork » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:43 pm UTC

makc wrote:
Catfish_Taylor wrote:Shouldn't the Star Wars chart include a split in Luke's line when his hand is cut off? I'd like to see the addition of a line falling off the bottom of the graph that represents the hand.
then the same applies to vader with his legs and arm floating away in lava.


... which happens in Episode III :roll:

lihan161051
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby lihan161051 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:52 pm UTC

MShades wrote:Remember, this is the entity who watched Luke walk into his palace - weaponless - kill his rancor - also weaponless - and promise that Jabba would die if he didn't let his friends go even when he was on the edge of execution. Luke was so damn confident that he offered Jabba mercy, and if that's not a sure sign that you should rethink your inevitable victory, I don't know what is.

I would say that Jabba was not all that bright, and his reckoning of the Sarlacc's biological processes was largely hyperbole and should not be trusted.


I'm inclined to agree.

When someone you think you're about to execute stands *on the very edge* of the certain death you've planned for him and not only shows no fear, but offers you a last chance at mercy without missing a beat .. either he's completely delusional (and would have been showing other signs of such all along), or you're in a much more precarious position than you think you are.

And Jabba should indeed know better, being a gangster and all. The fact that he didn't rearrange the order right then and drop Han and Lando in first, and maybe look *very* suspiciously at Leia, suggests (if there was in fact any thought given to this in the writing process) that Jabba wasn't thinking his plan through completely, and/or fixated on the program to the point where he wasn't open to thinking maybe he was catastrophically underestimating both Luke and Leia.

My guess is that it wasn't thought out in that level of detail, but that's where I'd go with it. ;)

(And I still think that Luke's and Vader's crossed lightsabers -- pay close attention to which one is toward the camera -- in front of the Emperor, on the Death Star near the end of Return, wasn't a technical screwup, especially since Lucas could have easily fixed it in re-releases along with all the other "enhancements". And the scene as shot is a far more interesting interpretation. :D )

lihan161051
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby lihan161051 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:02 pm UTC

wilywes wrote:To preserve accuracy, he'd have to include 5 hand detachments,(from the original trilogy) some of whom are minor characters who exist only to have their hands cut off:
C-3PO, Ponda Baba, the Wampa, Luke, and Vader. C3PO technically has his arm pulled off, not cut, so if we include that, then we should also include the guy who gets his hand pulled off in VI.


As well as C-3PO's narrow escape from becoming a scattered pile of junk in V, his partial (and incorrect) reassembly by Chewie, and his later incomplete (interrupted for very good reason) reassembly by R2D2 later on. His line would have to resemble a bit of a braid around that point. ;)

If we're only discussing IV-VI. most of Vader's lost bits were already long gone by the beginning of IV ..

harlyquin
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby harlyquin » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:49 pm UTC

I thought I was the only person who saw Primer. Awesome comic, well done. I laughed my ass off.

wilywes
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby wilywes » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:51 pm UTC

As the comic said, we are only mentioning the original trilogy. And just because his bits were gone, doesn't make it any less important. It's one of the more important plot points in VI, IMO.
But if you wish to discuss the prequels, then VI is the 3rd time that Vader has a hand removed (II, III, VI). An interesting recurring theme is that if you chop off a hand, you are likely to have the favor returned within 1 movie. For example, Count Dooku, Anakin/Vader, Luke.

Sax
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Sax » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:19 pm UTC

I'd like to point out to all the people mentioning the Wheel of Time series that there are "plot threads" on On the Encyclopaedia WoT For the first 11 books.

jason2004
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby jason2004 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:27 pm UTC

I like to see how to represent "Being John Malkovich" in this format.

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neoliminal
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby neoliminal » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:31 pm UTC

Oh and if you get around to doing books, The Time Traveler's Wife.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0073YYXRC
Read My Book. Cost less than coffee. Will probably keep you awake longer.
[hint, scary!]

Jobbeybob
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Jobbeybob » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:38 pm UTC

According to this chart, Han, Luke, and Leia are all wizards. Oh, and Jabba's a Hobbit. Jabba the Hobbit?

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Me321
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Me321 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:11 pm UTC

lihan161051 wrote:When someone you think you're about to execute stands *on the very edge* of the certain death you've planned for him and not only shows no fear, but offers you a last chance at mercy without missing a beat .. either he's completely delusional (and would have been showing other signs of such all along), or you're in a much more precarious position than you think you are.


Can i have this in a t-shirt?

Greenie
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Greenie » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:39 pm UTC

i'm going to watch the movies along to this chart

Kerim
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Kerim » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:17 pm UTC

With the addition of Back To The Future, this would be the single greatest comic I have ever seen in my life.

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MShades
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby MShades » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:28 pm UTC

Sax wrote:I'd like to point out to all the people mentioning the Wheel of Time series that there are "plot threads" on On the Encyclopaedia WoT For the first 11 books.


OhthankyouJeebus.....

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aquilo
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby aquilo » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:32 pm UTC

Kerim wrote:With the addition of Back To The Future, this would be the single greatest comic I have ever seen in my life.

Back to the Future would probably have to use different axes than the others, like specifying that the x-axis is movie time and not in-universe time. This would, in turn, require you to have multiple lines for each character, like when 1985 Jennifer meets 2015 Jennifer, or like the time in 1955 when there are four DeLoreans in the time time period. Keeping the x-axis as time creates a big mess (although Randal would make it much cleaner than this):

Image
Last edited by aquilo on Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:33 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

Doug52392
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Doug52392 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:12 am UTC

With the publishing of this comic, the Primer torrent on Mininova suddenly spiked from 92 to 580 seeders...

Herr Presidente Skroob
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Herr Presidente Skroob » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:36 am UTC

Why didn't Randall go for the more nerdy option and do actual locations...with parametric equations?

arasam22
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby arasam22 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:50 am UTC

SO EPIC.

i have printed out the Lord of the Rings chart and hung it next to my bed... after having pored over it for an hour with about five people on my hall.

<3

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frogman
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby frogman » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:45 am UTC

I just watched Primer. Yeah, it was pretty confusing.
yeah yeah yeah

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wdfarmer
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby wdfarmer » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:04 am UTC

Wonderful job, Randall! A labor of love. Very impressive.

Projects for the future:


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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby SolkaTruesilver » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:55 pm UTC

So, no one is interested in trying either Pulp Fiction or Shogun? :(

Invertin
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Invertin » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:17 pm UTC

I would have to disagree with people complaining about Fett's death on the chart. Since this is a Movie chart, not an extended universe chart. Anyone who sees the film will see Fett die, and he leaves the story at that point, so to add a line for him would ignore the point of it. And besides, until the extended universe brought him back, he basically did die.

I want to make a chart for the prequel films, but I unfortunately do not own them and I would probably get alot of it wrong if I did it by memory.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby jjpr » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:19 pm UTC

aquilo wrote:Keeping the x-axis as time creates a big mess (although Randal would make it much cleaner than this)


Imagine trying to do this for LOST. Total mess. The answer is going with a directed graph instead of a Cartesian space. Scenes are nodes, and characters are edges. Each edge is color-coded for character. That way you can visually follow the paths of the characters through the graph. You have to include The Island as a character. Ditto for The World Outside. Then time is not a dimension of the diagram, but a subjective path for each character.

jjpr
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby jjpr » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:27 pm UTC

jjpr wrote:The answer is going with a directed graph instead of a Cartesian space.


Oh, and you have to keep the whole thing in source control. 'Cause after each episode, not only do you add new stuff, you have to go back and change the stuff you found out you had wrong.

makc
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby makc » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:40 pm UTC

in above back-to-the-future graph, 1985 is not the only year that needs "A" (I assume Alternative) copy.

FutureTXGovernor
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby FutureTXGovernor » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:42 pm UTC

I know it has been said already, BUT PLEASE PLEASE, very quickly can this poster be available in the store?

I absolutley love this comic and you are my all time hero for making it! I can't even begin to tell you how much this made my day.

p.s. I have another store idea. XKCD wall paper! I would totally use it in my guest bathroom!

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aquilo
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby aquilo » Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:43 pm UTC

wilywes wrote:But if you wish to discuss the prequels, then VI is the 3rd time that Vader has a hand removed (II, III, VI). An interesting recurring theme is that if you chop off a hand, you are likely to have the favor returned within 1 movie. For example, Count Dooku, Anakin/Vader, Luke.

At first I thought the plot element was being overused, but I guess when you are fighting with laser swords, hand loss is going to be a common result. I wonder if having a cyborg-hand impacts a jedi's ability to mind control via waving that hand.

Jobbeybob wrote:According to this chart, Han, Luke, and Leia are all wizards. Oh, and Jabba's a Hobbit. Jabba the Hobbit?

Of course Jabba is a hobbit. You clearly haven't read the extended universe stories about his back-story. :P

Doug52392 wrote:With the publishing of this comic, the Primer torrent on Mininova suddenly spiked from 92 to 580 seeders...

I've already put it on my "to watch" list.

makc wrote:in above back-to-the-future graph, 1985 is not the only year that needs "A" (I assume Alternative) copy.

You could make an alternate universe for every instance where they go back in time (like mean Biff world vs. friendly Biff world). However, that would greatly complicate things, all of the characters who do not time travel (like Lauraine) would need branching trees as they split into each universe, whereas in this chart they can be ignored in a simplistic version of the timeline since they would all be straight lines along the top. The universe that they call the "alternate universe" is a major plot point and they put a lot of effort into trying to escape from it, so I think it's a special case.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby wilywes » Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:50 pm UTC

aquilo wrote:At first I thought the plot element was being overused, but I guess when you are fighting with laser swords, hand loss is going to be a common result. I wonder if having a cyborg-hand impacts a jedi's ability to mind control via waving that hand.

Chopping off hands is mainly used as a non-fatal sign of defeat. Otherwise, you have important/interesting characters dying and potentially causing an uproar when you bring them back (Boba Fett). Also, I don't think having a cyborg hand is going to hinder a jedi/sith's use of the force. It's kinda like, bear with me here, how wizards don't actually need a wand to cast spells.

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Movie Narrative Charts

Postby JeremiahJohnbalaya » Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:41 pm UTC

Jesus Ti@@y-F***-ing Christ! If you are going to include the blasphemes of Arwen helping Frodo to Rivendell, and the Elves showing up at Helm's Deep, why not just go all the way and show Faramir taking Frodo to Osgiliath?

(ps. Faramir's resistence to The One Ring is the most single most important scene of the entire story)

(pps. Hmmm, maybe that's why you didn't depict Jackson's version?)

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Hero's Journey

Postby Christo » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:11 pm UTC

wilywes wrote:Chopping off hands is mainly used as a non-fatal sign of defeat.

Yeah, but it's more than that, right? Most heroes have a sort of epic wound. Frodo's shoulder, Neo's eyes, Harry's forehead, Inman's neck, Ged's face. The wound serves as a sort physical representation of internal strife, shows the hero's vulnerability, and serves as a reminder for the struggles that (s)he has been through.
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby nrnrnr » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:16 pm UTC

Awesome comic! The mix of straight and joke is perfect.

Another bug in the LOTR: Galadriel should be at the feast where Aragorn is crowned. Readers of the books will remember that Eomer and Gimli decide not to fight over which elf is more beautiful, Galadriel or Arwen Evenstar.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby kaimason1 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:06 am UTC

LOVE this comic. Again, as many have stated, poster form and added Back to the Future series. Haven't seen Primer, but cracked up at 12 angry men. (I shouldn't have, as I was currently supposed to be doing work in science class.) Other included fiction should be Harry Potter, Star Trek: The Next Generation, and possibly greek mythology. I am going to watch LotR again if only to check validity of this chart. I salute this idea! (And its creator!)
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby dennisw » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:24 am UTC

neoliminal wrote:... 2. Lost (wait til the end of the final season...) ...


How dare you say the "F" word!

slashme wrote:Oh, and by the way, this is the first one since WetRiffs and the Chess Coaster to be voted "comic most likely to inspire a website". I haven't read the whole thread, but has someone done "back to the future" yet?


One of the Rules of the Internet is that the answer is "Yes!" to any question that begins "I haven't read the whole thread, but has someone...".

SpringLoaded12 wrote:...I do hope 12 Angry Men is not as boring as it appears on the graph...


The brilliance of such movies is how great they are without special effects, action sequences, location shots, scenery, etc. When all you have is character and dialog, it has to be good or it's quickly forgotten.

Jobbeybob wrote:According to this chart, Han, Luke, and Leia are all wizards. Oh, and Jabba's a Hobbit. Jabba the Hobbit?


It sounds like you're channeling Bill Cosby.
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MShades
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby MShades » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:41 am UTC

I just did one of these for my family's history, starting with my parents' marriage Way Back When. It's an interesting exercise.... As long as I got all my dates right, anyway.
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Re: Hero's Journey

Postby Chuff » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:55 am UTC

Christo wrote:
wilywes wrote:Chopping off hands is mainly used as a non-fatal sign of defeat.

Yeah, but it's more than that, right? Most heroes have a sort of epic wound. Frodo's shoulder, Neo's eyes, Harry's forehead, Inman's neck, Ged's face. The wound serves as a sort physical representation of internal strife, shows the hero's vulnerability, and serves as a reminder for the struggles that (s)he has been through.

So basically, if you're writing a genre savvy character, they don't answer the call until AFTER the epic wound.
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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby Ryom » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:21 am UTC

Just loaded up Primer on Netflix and so far the first bit of the movie is about 4 people all talking over each other followed soon after by 2 people talking over each other, followed by 3 people talking over each other, followed by more talking over each other into a continuous garbled mess of conversation.

Really, really an annoying way to show contention. Made me want to close it within a minute.

edit: Instead of going to the hardware store and buying $25 worth of copper pipe, I'm going to destroy my currently in use $1000+ refrigerator, also spoiling all of my cold food which I will then also need to replace.

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby xylax11 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:06 am UTC

Ridcully wrote:Haha. Once again thank you randal for the awsome Comic!
I wonder if it will wind up in the store as a poster? I would buy it, absolutely no question lol.

After 6 times, primer has started to make a semblence of sense, still time travel is some weird sh*t.


This has menu of the primer timelines plus the embeded movie:

http://www.tanglax.com/content/primer

Hears a neat diagram regarding the time travel:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... thod-2.svg

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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby sirpatrickspence » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:43 am UTC

The Twelve Angry Men chart fails to take into account the shifting loyalties. Now that would be impressive - a graphical representation of the gradual shift towards Fonda's side of the table, with flip-floppers, bathroom breaks, and the parting included. Read as it is, the chart implies the characters have no interaction whatsoever. To keep it funny, perhaps one line labeled 12 Angry Men?

And also - I realize it says "movie" in the title, but really? Did ya have to do the movie version of LOTR? Read a book. Burning of the Shire, anyone? Tom Bombadil?


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Re: "Movie Narrative Charts" Discussion

Postby MShades » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:32 am UTC

sirpatrickspence wrote:And also - I realize it says "movie" in the title, but really? Did ya have to do the movie version of LOTR? Read a book. Burning of the Shire, anyone? Tom Bombadil?


- A liberal arts major


From one LibArts major to another, Tom Bombadil can go die in a fire. The two main reasons I liked the films better than the books were that a) Tom Bombadil was nowhere to be seen and b) I actually cared about Boromir, something the books never achieved. I would have liked to have seen the Scouring of the Shire, though....
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Re: Hero's Journey

Postby Christo » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:02 pm UTC

Chuff wrote:So basically, if you're writing a genre savvy character, they don't answer the call until AFTER the epic wound.

If they're smart, the characters should wear a little more body armor and not get attached to their mentor characters. I mean, the scholarly old white guy always bites the bullet in the middle of the movie. That or they're somehow indisposed. In the first few Harry Potter books, Dumbledore seemed to always have to rush off to a PTA meeting when they needed him. And in the X-men films?
Spoiler:
1) Xavier gets a headache, 2) he gets kidnapped, 3), he explodes.
Heroes should read a little Joseph Campbell.

They'd be so much more successful!
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