2139: "Email Settings"

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Justin Lardinois
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2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Justin Lardinois » Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:21 pm UTC

Image

Title text: What are all these less-than signs? What's an HREF? Look, we know you live in a fancy futuristic tech world, but not all of us have upgraded to the latest from Sun Microsystems.

No "Sent from my Sun Microsystems" signature?

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Archgeek » Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:30 pm UTC

Justin Lardinois wrote:Title text: What are all these less-than signs? What's an HREF? Look, we know you live in a fancy futuristic tech world, but not all of us have upgraded to the latest from Sun Microsystems.

No "Sent from my Sun Microsystems" signature?

An email from a brighter timeline wrote:-Sent from my Sun UltraSPARC IX
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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Flumble » Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:39 pm UTC

"Proudly sent from my libre Gentoo Linux (https://www.gentoo.org/) computer using GNUMail."

I miss the days when email was end-to-end encrypted and there was no size limit on attachments other than what the recipient has personally set.

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:27 pm UTC

Text only, definitely! (I could handle enforced 7-bit, like it should be. If it has to by ^128 or <<2 on the unsigned char I could work with either of those!)

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby cellocgw » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:32 pm UTC

So you pine for simple email?
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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Reka » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:27 pm UTC

The really depressing thing is that there are still email systems out there that can't handle Unicode. A mailing list my sister is on regularly produces stuff like this:
Al�bbiakban a felmen�im k�z�l k�t p�ld�t k�ld�k

cryptoengineer
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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby cryptoengineer » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:16 pm UTC

Where is the

* Top Post replies
* Bottom Post replies

toggle?

On this cartoon, I'd expect it to be on 'Top Post' (spit).

ce

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Tormuse » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:52 pm UTC

Does anyone actually ever use suggested replies in e-mails? They seem kind of awful to me.
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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Bridge Troll » Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:47 am UTC

It's a bit alarming, honestly. Do we really need to train AI to replace human-to-human communication? Sure, right now it's far too terrible to come close and the suggestions are just worthless clutter, but why are we on this path anyways?

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Pfhorrest » Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:06 am UTC

Think of it like having an old timey secretary. She (of course it would be a she) would tell you that so-and-so had sent you some common kind of message and ask if she should just sent back the obvious reply, or maybe ask which of several obvious replies she should send. E.g. Bob invited you to the gala on Thursday, should I tell him you’ be there or that you can’t make it?
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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Mikeski » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:24 am UTC

I'm sure it would be set on "top post"... and "bottom post" would be permanently grayed out.

cryptoengineer wrote:Where is the

* Top Post replies
* Bottom Post replies

toggle?

On this cartoon, I'd expect it to be on 'Top Post' (spit).

ce

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Flumble » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:02 am UTC

Mikeski wrote:I'm sure it would be set on "top post"... and "bottom post" would be permanently grayed out.

cryptoengineer wrote:Where is the

* Top Post replies
* Bottom Post replies

toggle?

On this cartoon, I'd expect it to be on 'Top Post' (spit).

ce

On the contrary, it needs a third option: do the opposite of what the other is doing.


Pfhorrest wrote:Think of it like having an old timey secretary. She (of course it would be a she) would tell you that so-and-so had sent you some common kind of message and ask if she should just sent back the obvious reply, or maybe ask which of several obvious replies she should send. E.g. Bob invited you to the gala on Thursday, should I tell him you’ be there or that you can’t make it?

Shirley (of course that's the one who sent the invite, not Bob) would send a doodle/RSVP form/Outlook event to fill out, right? Screw the messy human emails, we got those gazillion "web apps" for a reason.

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby svenman » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:51 am UTC

Reka wrote:A mailing list my sister is on regularly produces stuff like this:
Al�bbiakban a felmen�im k�z�l k�t p�ld�t k�ld�k

Hard to tell how much of that I can't read because of mangled Unicode and how much because the original text seems to have been in Hungarian...

[Edit: slight rewording]
Last edited by svenman on Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:48 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Soupspoon » Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:27 am UTC

cellocgw wrote:So you pine for simple email?

I never used pine. I mostly stuck with elm.

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby kdb » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:51 am UTC

Tormuse wrote:Does anyone actually ever use suggested replies in e-mails? They seem kind of awful to me.


Yes, they are. Especially, since other users will recognize them.

Related: Gmail also offers autocompletion, but for some reason it only offers it in the text body, where the completion is usually off, but doesn't offer any completion for stuff where it would actually be useful like "Dear sirs and madams".
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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby xtifr » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:40 pm UTC

The one I'm curious about is responding in CSS. "My emails can have no content, but if they did, it would be presented very nicely!"
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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby gimmespamnow » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:27 am UTC

Tormuse wrote:Does anyone actually ever use suggested replies in e-mails? They seem kind of awful to me.

I have a coworker who responds right away everytime you e-mail him, but he doesn't actually say anything useful until you ask him the third or fourth time: most of the time his responses are how he is going to get you what you need tomorrow morning or within an hour or something, and pretty much any large group e-mail thread includes several messages from him that say things like "Thanks for the update", even when the e-mail barely involves anything he is touching... Anyways, one day we are killing time before a meeting and he was talking about how great the suggested replies are and how he uses them on a lot of his e-mail and how they save him a bunch of time: so yes, some people do use them, in particular, "kind of awful" people use them.


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Re: Why use top post or bottom post, when you can put everything you want to say into the subject line?

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:53 am UTC

Someone who isn't thinking deep enough wrote:

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da Doctah
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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby da Doctah » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:03 am UTC

gimmespamnow wrote:
Tormuse wrote:Does anyone actually ever use suggested replies in e-mails? They seem kind of awful to me.

I have a coworker who responds right away everytime you e-mail him, but he doesn't actually say anything useful until you ask him the third or fourth time: most of the time his responses are how he is going to get you what you need tomorrow morning or within an hour or something, and pretty much any large group e-mail thread includes several messages from him that say things like "Thanks for the update", even when the e-mail barely involves anything he is touching... Anyways, one day we are killing time before a meeting and he was talking about how great the suggested replies are and how he uses them on a lot of his e-mail and how they save him a bunch of time: so yes, some people do use them, in particular, "kind of awful" people use them.


I wonder if "this message intentionally left blank" is one of the standard autoreplies.

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Re: Why use top post or bottom post, when you can put everything you want to say into the subject line?

Postby svenman » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:41 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
Someone who isn't thinking deep enough wrote:

Some people always ignore the quoted parts anyway and operate on the assumption that everyone else does the same. Therefore, they see the quotations as useless, maybe even annoying clutter.
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Re: Subject line abuse

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:06 pm UTC

Or reply without quoting, assuming that everyone else will immediately identify the context and know what they're responding to.

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:11 pm UTC

Tormuse wrote:Does anyone actually ever use suggested replies in e-mails? They seem kind of awful to me.
Occasionally. The way I view them, comparing them to oral replies: An actual oral statement is comparable to a short email with actual typed sentences, an auto-reply is comparable to a verb-less oral reply, like "Yes" or "in a minute".
The thing about recursion problems is that they tend to contain other recursion problems.

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Flumble » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:01 pm UTC

Seeing as how hard it is for me to track multiple conversations in a chatroom while (younger) others seem to do it with ease, yeah, there's no need to.

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby ijuin » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:45 pm UTC

Yes, today’s post-Millennial kids do very poorly at monotasking.

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Draco18s » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:28 pm UTC

Bridge Troll wrote:It's a bit alarming, honestly. Do we really need to train AI to replace human-to-human communication? Sure, right now it's far too terrible to come close and the suggestions are just worthless clutter, but why are we on this path anyways?


I would like to recommend this book.

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:34 pm UTC

I still think they should properly call it the Event Horizon.

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby I am Jack's username » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:43 pm UTC

Re: plain text - I've found that tech savvy people are much more likely to use plain text, while people who ask me to help them switch on their monitors tend to have non-descriptive all caps subjects, rambling email bodies, colored HTML text with random italicization, images in their sigs, and of course replies above an uncut quoted email.


Dear sir or madam, or to whom it may concern.

Note that, pursuant to your request, be advised that there is information in this message I am sending you. As you already know, I am enclosing the above mentioned information herein for your information.

Permit me to say that I trust that you will find this useful, in my humble opinion.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Please do not hesitate to contact the undersigned.

Sincerely yours,
Ina Ne, Esq.
Department of redundancy department

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby SuicideJunkie » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:19 pm UTC

Oh! There's a missing option from that list that I see some people have:

Place Signature:
( ) Adjacent to my message.
(X) At the far end of the quoted history.


Long top-posted threads end up looking like:
text
quote
quote^2
PYRAMID-OF-SIGNATURES

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Re: Why use top post or bottom post, when you can put everything you want to say into the subject line?

Postby kdb » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:45 am UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
Someone who isn't thinking deep enough wrote:Subject: Why use top post or bottom post, when you can put everything you want to say into the subject line?


I have a colleague who uses a text based client to access his email. Having been old enough to be among the people who started out using Email by putting the phone on an accoustic coupler apparently, he was also socialized to use emails just that way: The subject line should contain the grist of each individual message.

While it makes sense, that usecase obviously predates modern "group by thread" email clients.

When I had to reschedule a party, he almost missed it, because I sent the update with "reply all", keeping the same subject, which contained the old date.

The lesson I learned: With open-standards communication technology like Email, everyone will use them slightly differently, and you have to be extra careful to get the intended message across.

Probably part of the reason, why messaging has moved towards a "walled garden" approach with proprietary messengers (WhatsApp, Signal, ...) and away from open standards (SMS, Email, ...). These days the problem already starts with different operating systems / programs having different image sets for emojis, where a message sent as a friendly smile might arrive looking creepy on another OS. Which hopefully isn't relevant for professional communication...
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Relevant for professional communication

Postby mathmannix » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:52 pm UTC

kdb wrote:Probably part of the reason, why messaging has moved towards a "walled garden" approach with proprietary messengers (WhatsApp, Signal, ...) and away from open standards (SMS, Email, ...). These days the problem already starts with different operating systems / programs having different image sets for emojis, where a message sent as a friendly smile might arrive looking creepy on another OS. Which hopefully isn't relevant for professional communication...

I don't know about professional communication, but I think the President sometimes uses emojis in his twits...
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Re: Why use top post or bottom post, when you can put everything you want to say into the subject line?

Postby Archgeek » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:58 pm UTC

kdb wrote:These days the problem already starts with different operating systems / programs having different image sets for emojis, where a message sent as a friendly smile might arrive looking creepy on another OS. Which hopefully isn't relevant for professional communication...

HEH, and indeed for some might arrive in the form of a downright mysterious vertical open rectangle, delivering no usable information whatsoever unless decoded.
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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:25 am UTC

I frequently get texts on my dumbphone with obvious 'emoji here' characters. From context it's likely a smiley/winky-smiley symbol, but it's a context-sink, not the context-source is was doubtless intended to be (it could be a :evil: or :lol: or :oops: type of symbol and been intended to spin the message other ways - SFAIK I've never been sent an Aubergine, but it would have definitely made some communications mean different things).

Not that I receive any (non-system) SMSs on my smartphones, but it's proven that they'd struggle with certain not-strictly-core emojii (emojen/emeji?) and I struggle to understand the differences. It's rarely at the following font-size, often smaller and less distinguishable:
Photo - 02019-36-26-01-36-37.jpg

(That's too way large! If only it were that recognisable IRL. I can't seem to wrangle the original (sub)image-size of the cropped screenshot, I'm not used to trying to have a small image not expanded, usually it's the opposite. The whole text should be a couple of point sizes larger than my actual browser-font on this forum, however that translates to your experience!)

Edit: trying this other grab instead:
Spoiler:
Photo - 02019-53-26-01-53-29.jpg
Still too large, and can't extract the unmediated image URL (nor image-crop it tighter, vertically, before uploading, I'm hitting the letterboxing-limit on my cropping app!) from the forum, but you should be able to see from the visible antialising what level of indistinctiveness I'm referring to.


What's likely, also, is that any (semi)colon+closeparen I might text out gets converted to an equivalent face-emoji on some receiving systems. Not even counting here, where it's an alias in the intermediary that I can at least consistently anticipate. ;)

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Mikeski » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:33 am UTC

Soupspoon wrote: emojii (emojen/emeji?)

It's a Japanese loanword, so "emoji" is both the singular and the plural form.

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:57 am UTC

"Loanword" implies it would be given back at some point, of course. ;)

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Flumble » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:41 am UTC

It's not "taken" in the first place, but copied instead. So going by intellectual property terminology, it's a pirateword. U+1F3F4 U+200D U+2620 U+FE0F

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby DavidSh » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:17 pm UTC

Mikeski wrote:
Soupspoon wrote: emojii (emojen/emeji?)

It's a Japanese loanword, so "emoji" is both the singular and the plural form.

I prefer "emojira" as a pseudo-Japanese plural.

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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:06 pm UTC

Mikeski wrote:
Soupspoon wrote: emojii (emojen/emeji?)

It's a Japanese loanword, so "emoji" is both the singular and the plural form.
The question that remains is if these Japanese words are just irregular, or uncountable?

I move that those two be uncountable. Both because a reasonable person can't be bothered to count how many there are right now, and the fact that there are obvious going to keep being more while they remain relevant, so they're not even mathematically finite.
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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:37 pm UTC

I think that all Japanese nouns are uncountable, though someone fluent in Japanese please confirm or correct.

While Googling for confirmation/correction myself, I came across this article specifically about the word "emoji(s)":

https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2016/ ... ji/422967/
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Re: 2139: "Email Settings"

Postby DavidSh » Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:10 pm UTC

Grammatical categories designed for Indo-European languages like Latin or English don't necessarily apply to Japanese. Japanese words are not, in general, inflected for number. There are a few constructions that look as if they were plurals. "X-tachi" or "X-ra" for the group of people associated with X, such as "watashi-tachi" (or "bokura") for "we" or "us". Some short words get duplicated with minor consonantal shifts, so "hi" is "day", "hibi" is "days".
And just like an English mass noun can be counted if you add a unit, as "20 sheets of paper" for "paper" as a mass noun, there are auxiliary words called counters that can be used in Japanese, if you want to count things.


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