1923: "Felsius"

This forum is for the individual discussion thread that goes with each new comic.

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

User avatar
moody7277
Posts: 578
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:06 pm UTC
Location: Extreme south Texas

1923: "Felsius"

Postby moody7277 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:52 pm UTC

Image

Title Text: The symbol for degrees Felsius is an average of the Euro symbol (€) and the Greek lunate epislon (ϵ).

Based on today's exchange rate, one degree Felsius is about a buck twenty.
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

BrianK
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:15 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby BrianK » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:56 pm UTC

I think the better compromise is to use 0 for the freezing point of water and 200 for the boiling point. The Fahrenheit people get to keep their body temperature and "nice" weather numbers. The Celsius people get to keep "negative == ice" and scientifically supported definition.

BrianK
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:15 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby BrianK » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:56 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:Based on today's exchange rate, one degree Felsius is about a buck twenty.


That should reduce heating and cooling costs quite a bit.

amiller
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:07 am UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby amiller » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:08 pm UTC

:lol:

Image

User avatar
cellocgw
Posts: 1947
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:40 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby cellocgw » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:22 pm UTC

I'd have named it "Celsenheit" .
Not to be confused with "Gesundheit"
Also not to be confused with "Celsenblue"
https://app.box.com/witthoftresume
Former OTTer
Vote cellocgw for President 2020. #ScienceintheWhiteHouse http://cellocgw.wordpress.com
"The Planck length is 3.81779e-33 picas." -- keithl
" Earth weighs almost exactly π milliJupiters" -- what-if #146, note 7

User avatar
Heimhenge
Posts: 247
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 11:35 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby Heimhenge » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:25 pm UTC

Why stop with averaging just Celsius and Fahrenheit? Throw Rankine and Kelvin into the mix too. Call it RKCF. I leave the formula as an exercise for the reader.

User avatar
faubiguy
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:20 am UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby faubiguy » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:30 pm UTC

The corresponding absolute scale is the Rankelvin, with the symbol °K for maximum confusion. 1 °K = 7×K / 5 = 7×°R / 9.

tempest69
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:10 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby tempest69 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:34 pm UTC

At least -40 is the same for all three.

I like that Fahrenheit has 180 degrees of liquid water. It makes Degrees seem like a reasonable term to use.

I hate "degrees Celsius " Centigrade is a much better word (meaning measured in hundredths), "degrees Celsius" make me think that someone hasn't really considered how this works, and are just parroting down a long line of parrots.

User avatar
Rombobjörn
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:56 am UTC
Location: right between the past and the future

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby Rombobjörn » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:36 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:I'd have named it "Celsenheit" .

Great, now we'll have an unresolvable schism between users of "Felsius" and users of "Celsenheit".

User avatar
Rombobjörn
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:56 am UTC
Location: right between the past and the future

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby Rombobjörn » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:43 pm UTC

tempest69 wrote:I hate "degrees Celsius " Centigrade is a much better word

I think "funnygrade" is a much better word than "Fahrenheit".

User avatar
measure
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:31 pm UTC
Location: Time-traveling kayak

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby measure » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:49 pm UTC

Rombobjörn wrote:Great, now we'll have an unresolvable schism between users of "Felsius" and users of "Celsenheit".

"Felsiusenheit"

qvxb
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:20 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby qvxb » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:51 pm UTC

The felsius symbol is simply a kyphotic F.

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 4969
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:02 pm UTC

tempest69 wrote:I like that Fahrenheit has 180 degrees of liquid water. It makes Degrees seem like a reasonable term to use.

So should a minute of temperature be 1/60th of a degree, and a second be 1/60th of that again?

Better question: is 360°F = 0°F?
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

airdrik
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 3:08 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby airdrik » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:29 pm UTC

tempest69 wrote:At least -40 is the same for all three.

I like that Fahrenheit has 180 degrees of liquid water. It makes Degrees seem like a reasonable term to use.

I hate "degrees Celsius " Centigrade is a much better word (meaning measured in hundredths), "degrees Celsius" make me think that someone hasn't really considered how this works, and are just parroting down a long line of parrots.


Yes, "degrees centigrade" is so much better than "degrees Celsius" because it removes the ambiguity around what scale the degrees are based on /sarcasm

For those fans of "gradians" for angular measurement, perhaps Felsius should use "gradees" or "degrians"?

User avatar
orthogon
Posts: 2993
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 7:52 am UTC
Location: The Airy 1830 ellipsoid

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby orthogon » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:31 pm UTC

"Felsius" sounds obscene to me. Like it's the fancy Latinate term for "felching".
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

chrisjwmartin
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:01 am UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby chrisjwmartin » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:38 pm UTC

Heimhenge wrote:Why stop with averaging just Celsius and Fahrenheit? Throw Rankine and Kelvin into the mix too. Call it RKCF. I leave the formula as an exercise for the reader.

I hope you're not going to be so timid as to use the arithmetic mean for RKCF.

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3665
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:58 pm UTC

faubiguy wrote:The corresponding absolute scale is the Rankelvin, with the symbol °K for maximum confusion. 1 °K = 7×K / 5 = 7×°R / 9.

GOOMHFaubi

(Relvin, was to have been my suggestion. :P)

((And I knew exactly what the comic would be about, just by the title. I think that's good. Not sure for who, though.))

User avatar
Keyman
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:56 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby Keyman » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:07 pm UTC

Rombobjörn wrote:
tempest69 wrote:I hate "degrees Celsius " Centigrade is a much better word

I think "funnygrade" is a much better word than "Fahrenheit".

Fahrsius.
Nothing could be more ill-judged than that intolerant spirit which has, at all times, characterized political parties. - A. Hamilton

RoboRaven
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:21 pm UTC
Location: Alaska

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby RoboRaven » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:21 pm UTC

Heimhenge wrote:Why stop with averaging just Celsius and Fahrenheit? Throw Rankine and Kelvin into the mix too. Call it RKCF. I leave the formula as an exercise for the reader.

While an abbreviation could do, I propose "Rankelsienheit" as an alternative.

User avatar
CelticNot
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:18 pm UTC
Location: A Little North of the Great Albertan Desert

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby CelticNot » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:37 pm UTC

measure wrote:
Rombobjörn wrote:Great, now we'll have an unresolvable schism between users of "Felsius" and users of "Celsenheit".

"Felsiusenheit"

Bless you.
This sig for rent. Rates negotiable.

jgh
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:04 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby jgh » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:39 pm UTC

tempest69 wrote:I hate "degrees Celsius " Centigrade is a much better word (meaning measured in hundredths), "degrees Celsius" make me think that someone hasn't really considered how this works, and are just parroting down a long line of parrots.

But isn't it supposed to be "Celsius" anyway, not "degrees Celsius".

User avatar
GlassHouses
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:41 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby GlassHouses » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:48 pm UTC

BrianK wrote:I think the better compromise is to use 0 for the freezing point of water and 200 for the boiling point. The Fahrenheit people get to keep their body temperature and "nice" weather numbers. The Celsius people get to keep "negative == ice" and scientifically supported definition.


I thought 0 °F was defined as the temperature you get when you pour salt on ice until the ice gets so cold it stops melting -- which Mr. Fahrenheit thought was a good choice because it is a very specific temperature, and so makes a better reference than the melting point of pure water. Which makes 0 °F more scientifically sound than 0 °C.

I don't know what the reference for 100 °F is supposed to be, though.

tempest69
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:10 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby tempest69 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:01 pm UTC

airdrik wrote:
tempest69 wrote:At least -40 is the same for all three.

I like that Fahrenheit has 180 degrees of liquid water. It makes Degrees seem like a reasonable term to use.

I hate "degrees Celsius " Centigrade is a much better word (meaning measured in hundredths), "degrees Celsius" make me think that someone hasn't really considered how this works, and are just parroting down a long line of parrots.


Yes, "degrees centigrade" is so much better than "degrees Celsius" because it removes the ambiguity around what scale the degrees are based on /sarcasm

For those fans of "gradians" for angular measurement, perhaps Felsius should use "gradees" or "degrians"?

NOOOOOOOOO no no no no.. Degrees Centigrade??!?? Just Centigrade **you monster**

User avatar
keithl
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:46 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby keithl » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:46 pm UTC

Planck units. The Planck temperature is 1.4168e32K, also known as an "absolute hotness" of 1.0. That way, if anyone asks you the temperature, you can say "close to zero" and be right every time - even if you are at the core of an exploding supernova.

Added note: It is about 2 microyoctoPlancks outside today. If it drops to 1.9 microyoctoPlancks, I'll put on a heavy coat.
Last edited by keithl on Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:10 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Yablo
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:57 am UTC
Location: Juneau, Alaska

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby Yablo » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:47 pm UTC

Centigrade should only be allowed 100 total degrees. I don't care where the 0 and 100 reference points are placed or how large the units are, but "110 degrees Centigrade" should be the temperature equivalent of "giving 110%."
If you like Call of Cthulhu and modern government conspiracy, check out my Delta Green thread.
Please feel free to ask questions or leave comments.

Fungo4
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:48 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby Fungo4 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:49 pm UTC

measure wrote:
Rombobjörn wrote:Great, now we'll have an unresolvable schism between users of "Felsius" and users of "Celsenheit".

"Felsiusenheit"


Faracelsus!

xtifr
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:38 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby xtifr » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:53 pm UTC

GlassHouses wrote:I don't know what the reference for 100 °F is supposed to be, though.

I believe it was supposed to be body temperature, originally. But if that's true, I'm not entirely sure how it ended up being off, slightly.

(Checking Wikipedia: oh, it's much worse than that. Apparently he was was basing it on body temperature, but he was trying to make that come out to 96, so it would be three times the difference between his zero and the freezing temperature of water...) :roll:
"[T]he author has followed the usual practice of contemporary books on graph theory, namely to use words that are similar but not identical to the terms used in other books on graph theory."
-- Donald Knuth, The Art of Computer Programming, Vol I, 3rd ed.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26529
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:56 pm UTC

GlassHouses wrote:
BrianK wrote:I think the better compromise is to use 0 for the freezing point of water and 200 for the boiling point. The Fahrenheit people get to keep their body temperature and "nice" weather numbers. The Celsius people get to keep "negative == ice" and scientifically supported definition.
I thought 0 °F was defined as the temperature you get when you pour salt on ice until the ice gets so cold it stops melting -- which Mr. Fahrenheit thought was a good choice because it is a very specific temperature, and so makes a better reference than the melting point of pure water. Which makes 0 °F more scientifically sound than 0 °C.
It's unlikely that was the original definition, because salt water can have a freezing temperature below 0ºF. Fixed points of 32 and 96 (for axial body temprature) aren't bad, because there's 64º between them and powers of two are more useful for making instruments than powers of ten.

On the basis that Fahrenheit was a good instrument maker, Veritasium suggests in a video that the size of the ºF was chosen so that mercury would expand by a factor of 1 in 10,000 for each degree increase. (And given that we make thermometers with mercury rather than water, I don't see how a mercury-based definition is any less "scientific" than a water-based one.)
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
keithl
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:46 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby keithl » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:00 pm UTC

Melting point and boiling point of ... water? Those temperatures are only "standard" at 101 kPascal (one "standard" atmosphere of dry nitrogen/oxygen). At very high or very low pressures, where 99.99% of the water in the solar system can be found, the temperatures are different. Even on Earth, most liquid water is deep in the ocean. In the Kuiper belt and Oort cloud, where most of the "water surface" is (and where most intelligence will reside someday, better heatsink and more easily focused sunlight), the ambient pressure is so low that ice sublimates rather than melts.

Temperature should be expressible in universal, not geocentric, units.

User avatar
orthogon
Posts: 2993
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 7:52 am UTC
Location: The Airy 1830 ellipsoid

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby orthogon » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:20 pm UTC

tempest69 wrote:
airdrik wrote:
tempest69 wrote:At least -40 is the same for all three.

I like that Fahrenheit has 180 degrees of liquid water. It makes Degrees seem like a reasonable term to use.

I hate "degrees Celsius " Centigrade is a much better word (meaning measured in hundredths), "degrees Celsius" make me think that someone hasn't really considered how this works, and are just parroting down a long line of parrots.


Yes, "degrees centigrade" is so much better than "degrees Celsius" because it removes the ambiguity around what scale the degrees are based on /sarcasm

For those fans of "gradians" for angular measurement, perhaps Felsius should use "gradees" or "degrians"?

NOOOOOOOOO no no no no.. Degrees Centigrade??!?? Just Centigrade **you monster**

The symbol has to have the degree sign, though, otherwise it's Coulombs. Given that, it's not clear how you can not pronounce the "degrees" part.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

Petrograd
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:58 am UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby Petrograd » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:27 pm UTC

The symbol should be Ð. D is between C and F, and the extra - helps show it's supposed to be half way to E.

User avatar
faubiguy
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:20 am UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby faubiguy » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:29 pm UTC

Petrograd wrote:The symbol should be Ð. D is between C and F, and the extra - helps show it's supposed to be half way to E.


Alternatively, it should be D♯, borrowing from musical notation.

ozuraravis
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:58 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby ozuraravis » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:00 pm UTC

What debate? The US is wrong and everyone else is right.

User avatar
chridd
Has a vermicelli title
Posts: 829
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:07 am UTC
Location: ...Earth, I guess?
Contact:

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby chridd » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:16 pm UTC

tempest69 wrote:NOOOOOOOOO no no no no.. Degrees Centigrade??!?? Just Centigrade **you monster**
...but the question of whether to say "degrees" is separate from the question of whether to use Celsius or Centigrade. If it's the "degree" part that you object to, why not just say Celsius without the degrees? (I think I grew up calling it "degrees Centigrade", but I can't remember for sure.)

Also: degrees Kelvin :twisted:

By the way, I just added Felsius here (under "less serious"), so now you can convert between Felsius and every other temperature system I could find when I first made that page.
~ chri d. d. /tʃɹɪ.di.di/ (Phonotactics, schmphonotactics) · she(?)(?(?)(?))(?(?(?))(?))(?) · Forum game scores
mittfh wrote:I wish this post was very quotable...
chridd (on Discord) wrote:
Dummy wrote:Sorry You're Gay Dads
SYG'D
marionic (on Discord) wrote:sleep in grave

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3665
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:31 pm UTC

Heimhenge wrote:Why stop with averaging just Celsius and Fahrenheit? Throw Rankine and Kelvin into the mix too. Call it RKCF. I leave the formula as an exercise for the reader.

(Missed this.)
I demand the right to add Delisle into the averaging!
(edit: This demand made prior to seeing °D listed on the prior poster's calculation page. Nice to see some attention paid tothis much underused measure!)

jgh wrote:But isn't it supposed to be "Celsius" anyway, not "degrees Celsius".
It's useful to differentiate the difference betweens the usages:
1) "degrees Celsius(/Centigrade/Fahrenheit/Kelvin/Romer/Reaumur/Delisle/etc)"
2) "Celsius(/Centigrade/Fahrenheit/Kelvin/Romer/Reaumur/Delisle/etc) degrees"

There are some technical issues that might be pointed out with various of the sub-forms, but the overriding thing is the difference between the two form-types. (Also written as °C vs C°, or alternate alphabetic element, to indicate the context.)
Last edited by Soupspoon on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:38 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26529
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:34 pm UTC

chridd wrote:
By the way, I just added Felsius here (under "less serious"), so now you can convert between Felsius and every other temperature system I could find when I first made that page.

Holy floating point errors, Batman!
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Qaanol
The Cheshirest Catamount
Posts: 3060
Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 11:55 pm UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby Qaanol » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:04 am UTC

chrisjwmartin wrote:
Heimhenge wrote:Why stop with averaging just Celsius and Fahrenheit? Throw Rankine and Kelvin into the mix too. Call it RKCF. I leave the formula as an exercise for the reader.

I hope you're not going to be so timid as to use the arithmetic mean for RKCF.

Obviously it should use the arithmetic-geometric mean.
wee free kings

sotanaht
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:14 am UTC

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby sotanaht » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:43 am UTC

Fahrenheit for weather, Celsius for water. It's what they were made for and what they are good at.

Think about the usable portion of the scale. Where I live 0°F and 100°F are about equally common. We very very rarely use numbers above 100 or below 0, but they do happen occasionally. In Celsius that would be a scale from -18 to 38, which is utter nonsense.

User avatar
chridd
Has a vermicelli title
Posts: 829
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:07 am UTC
Location: ...Earth, I guess?
Contact:

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby chridd » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:53 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
chridd wrote:
By the way, I just added Felsius here (under "less serious"), so now you can convert between Felsius and every other temperature system I could find when I first made that page.

Holy floating point errors, Batman!
Curious what specific floating point errors you're seeing? (I know there are some, but are there some that you're seeing that I'm not aware of? Or if I wasn't clear enough about the "radians Fahrenheit/Celsius" options? In any case, putting "switch to using rational numbers" on my mental to-do list.)
~ chri d. d. /tʃɹɪ.di.di/ (Phonotactics, schmphonotactics) · she(?)(?(?)(?))(?(?(?))(?))(?) · Forum game scores
mittfh wrote:I wish this post was very quotable...
chridd (on Discord) wrote:
Dummy wrote:Sorry You're Gay Dads
SYG'D
marionic (on Discord) wrote:sleep in grave

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6566
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: 1923: "Felsius"

Postby ucim » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:08 am UTC

cellocgw wrote:I'd have named it "Celsenheit" .
Not to be confused with "Gesundheit"
Also not to be confused with "Celsenblue"

I'd've gone the other way... "Felsius" doesn't use enough of the "Fahrenheit"; I'd've called it "Fahrsius".
Not to be confused with "fahrvergnügen".

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.


Return to “Individual XKCD Comic Threads”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: NoMouse, Sabrar and 24 guests