1816: "Mispronunciation"

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby somitomi » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:09 pm UTC

airdrik wrote:For the longest time I'd heard used this word Fe-CEE-shus which I never had to spell. Later I came across the word facetious in writing, which of course should be pronounced as though describing a gem with many facets. It took quite a while for me to figure out that they were the same word.
P.s. I only just now discovered the i, as this is the first I've ever used it in my own writing, which actually would have helped in figuring out the correct pronunciation of the written version had I noticed it before.

Fash....Faceshh.... whatever is one of those words, that I'd rather avoid using completely. I just can't make sense of this sequence of characters, and every time I look up the pronunciation, it seems like I clicked the wrong thing somewhere.
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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:26 pm UTC

@Muswell
Did Cicero use it idiomatically or literally?
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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Apeiron » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:09 pm UTC

This comic and thread are why English should have diacritics. Then we wouldn't have to go to fonetik spelling AND don't have to deal with people referring to pecans as pisscans.

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby azule » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:20 pm UTC

GlassHouses wrote:
azule wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Except that the pronunciation of "chimera" is also consistent with the spelling, just like "technology" and "mechanism" and "chemistry" and "charisma" and "chorus" and "chaos" are.

Except for chimichanga, which contains the first four letters. CHI-mer-a it is!

The pronunciation of ch in English tends to depend on the origin of a word. The examples given by gmalivuk are all from Greek, and are pronounced k; chimichanga is Spanish and so its ch sounds like tsh; the odd pronunciation of Chicago and Michigan is because those spellings were established by French speakers, and French ch sounds like sh, hence also chef and machine.

Machine but not machinations....

I know, of course, that etymology can dictate pronunciation. But what if someone doesn't know their origin? That was my playful point. :)

Note: I was going to say facetious instead of playful. Funny how the conversation went down that path while I tried to avoid it. (I use the word too often.)
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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby azule » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:32 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I'm wondering if people are maybe missing the point of my comment. I wasn't saying (much) about the correct pronunciation of "bonafide", just noting that in the movie Robin Williams as Genie says "boh-nah-fee-day" in a place that seems to call for a rhyme with "certified", and so I suspect he was pronouncing it differently than the person who wrote that line intended.

The writer thought "boh-nah-fyd cer-tah-fyd",
wrote "bonafide certified",
and got "boh-nah-fee-day cer-tah-fyd" from the actor.

My take was that you brought up a great point. After that, I really don't think the writer was ignored. Listen to the other very properly pronounced and fancy words in that song. It was very much on purpose, especially considering the flow of the lyrics.

I agree that the thought process of putting bona fide next to certified based on common pronunciation is evident. But that's just word play not a rogue vocalist.
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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Muswell » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:32 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:@Muswell
Did Cicero use it idiomatically or literally?


Well, he used it for its literal meaning. And its literal meaning is inherent to its being part of Latin court (and English & Welsh court, though I don't know about other courts) idiom. I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw between the two here; I'm familiar with "bona fide" as part of English idiom, but only for its literal meaning...

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby teelo » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:10 am UTC

It's it normal to giggle when I hear "homogeneous"?

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby FOARP » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:03 am UTC

PinkShinyRose wrote:
FOARP wrote:[*]Patent "pay-tent" when referring to the IP right. 99% of all people who work with patents say "pat-ent" regardless of where they are from and have for decades. Yes, it is not reasonable for people in the business to get angry at people outside for not knowing this, but on the flip-side I do get annoyed when people try to correct me or say that my pronunciation is American.[/list]

Yet, dictionaries seem to agree with those people. Have you considered that the common language of the patent industry may be American English? Like Latin in the sciences or French in diplomacy up to a century ago? Or English in both at the moment.


Definitely not, since this convention in the UK patent trade goes back more than a century AFAIK. I note that two of those dictionaries uses the notation "chiefly/usually".

EDIT: and I further note that at least Merriam Webster supports me - when what is referred to is the IP right, the "chiefly British" pronunciation is pa-tənt, the pā-tənt pronunication being used to refer to something being obvious.

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby SalSomer » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:01 am UTC

da Doctah wrote:
Flumble wrote:I never know what to make of words like "tier", "caveat" and "inventory". Why pronounce them as tear, cavee-at, inVENtory, rather than tyre, caf-feet, INventory?


"Caf-feet"? Surely it's meant to be "cave-at".

The word I insist I'm pronouncing correctly despite what every person and reference book in the world insists otherwise is detritus. Should start the same way as detriment.


You and me both. I'm actually pretty sure detritus has been given the Berenstain Bears treatment.

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby SalSomer » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:02 am UTC

I also find it funny how the arKANsas river runs through arkanSAW.

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby orthogon » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:05 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:
airdrik wrote:For the longest time I'd heard used this word Fe-CEE-shus which I never had to spell. Later I came across the word facetious in writing, which of course should be pronounced as though describing a gem with many facets. It took quite a while for me to figure out that they were the same word.
P.s. I only just now discovered the i, as this is the first I've ever used it in my own writing, which actually would have helped in figuring out the correct pronunciation of the written version had I noticed it before.

Fash....Faceshh.... whatever is one of those words, that I'd rather avoid using completely. I just can't make sense of this sequence of characters, and every time I look up the pronunciation, it seems like I clicked the wrong thing somewhere.

I always assumed that "facetious" was related to "faeces", and was a fancy Latinate way of saying "shitty". Even since I discovered the true etymology I can't shake off the contamination, especially since things said facetiously are often also a bit shitty.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Rossegacebes » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:01 pm UTC

What about "symmetry" in William Blake's "The Tyger"?

"Tyger Tyger, burning bright,
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?"

To me it is evident that he intended the rhyme.

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:21 pm UTC

Muswell wrote:
Quizatzhaderac wrote:@Muswell
Did Cicero use it idiomatically or literally?


Well, he used it for its literal meaning. And its literal meaning is inherent to its being part of Latin court (and English & Welsh court, though I don't know about other courts) idiom. I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw between the two here; I'm familiar with "bona fide" as part of English idiom, but only for its literal meaning...
The definitions in English:
In good faith - Which comes straightforwardly from the literal.
A credential signifying authenticity, ability, or reason to presume good faith.
Something or someone associated with such credentials.
Something authentic, even if no credentialing system exists.
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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby azule » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:44 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:Even since I discovered the true etymology I can't shake off the contamination, especially since things said facetiously are often also a bit shitty.

Things said sarcastically and sardonically can be equally shitty. Funny association, still. (Haha, autoincorrect wanted me to write "stool" instead of "still".)
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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby tanstaafl » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:55 pm UTC

Others are mainly focused on mispronunciations, but what I enjoyed was the interplay between the word meaning and the word itself.

I've always wanted to share an anecdote along these lines. I was taking a criminal law class and the professor was discussing and writing on the board about how acts of omission and "comission" (<---misspelled this way) are treated differently under the law.

I later contacted her to let her know that she had committed an act of omission, by omitting an "m" from "commission"!

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:28 pm UTC

Rossegacebes wrote:What about "symmetry" in William Blake's "The Tyger"?

"Tyger Tyger, burning bright,
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?"

To me it is evident that he intended the rhyme.

Yeah, that was a rhyme that really did exist in English pre-Great-Vowel-Shift, and Shakespeare rhymed the same two vowels a number of times as well.
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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:00 pm UTC

tanstaafl wrote:Others are mainly focused on mispronunciations, but what I enjoyed was the interplay between the word meaning and the word itself.

I've always wanted to share an anecdote along these lines. I was taking a criminal law class and the professor was discussing and writing on the board about how acts of omission and "comission" (<---misspelled this way) are treated differently under the law.

I later contacted her to let her know that she had committed an act of omission, by omitting an "m" from "commission"!

That reminds me a bit of a philosophy professor discussing instrumental vs intrinsic desires. An example that came up in class was that another student wanted a burrito, because it tastes good, and also he needs food to live. The professor distilled that down to "because it's delicious, and nutritious. So your desire is for a burrito, but the burrito is only instrumentally desired; what you intrinsically desire is nutrition and.... delicion."
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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:25 pm UTC

tanstaafl wrote:Others are mainly focused on mispronunciations, but what I enjoyed was the interplay between the word meaning and the word itself.

Makes for a lesser known version of the "why is 'dyslexia' such an awkward to spell word?", "isn't 'abbreviation' a long word?" and of course that 'monosyllabic'... isn't. But it'll be ages before I can work these 'new' ones into a casual conversation... ;)

(Nice anecdotes, BTW.)

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Mikeski » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:02 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:nutrition and.... delicion."

Delicions are the elementary particles that carry flavor, right?

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby ucim » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:29 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:delicion
NFW (New Favorite Word)

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Eoink » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:55 am UTC

I've always had a sneaky fondness for neologism in this context, a word that started as self-referential and then stopped being so.

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby orthogon » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:29 pm UTC

Eoink wrote:I've always had a sneaky fondness for neologism in this context, a word that started as self-referential and then stopped being so.

Not quite the same thing, but I like the way that something with "new" in the name is probably the second oldest of its type, for reasons that become obvious when you think about it.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:42 pm UTC

There's also the fun-to-teach phenomenon where "older" is younger than "old" when describing people.
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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby somitomi » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:43 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:delicion
NFW (New Favorite Word)

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Although it is a damn neat word. Delicion. MMmmm.
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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby GlassHouses » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:59 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:I like the way that something with "new" in the name is probably the second oldest of its type, for reasons that become obvious when you think about it.

I went to college in a city where the two churches downtown are known as the Old Church and the New Church. The former was completed 771 years ago; the latter, 521 years ago, and yes, they are the two oldest churches in town. :)
Counterexample: the Pont Neuf in Paris was not the second bridge across the Seine in that city, and, having survived all the older ones, it is now the oldest itself.

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Eoink » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:12 pm UTC

GlassHouses wrote:
orthogon wrote:I like the way that something with "new" in the name is probably the second oldest of its type, for reasons that become obvious when you think about it.

I went to college in a city where the two churches downtown are known as the Old Church and the New Church. The former was completed 771 years ago; the latter, 521 years ago, and yes, they are the two oldest churches in town. :)
Counterexample: the Pont Neuf in Paris was not the second bridge across the Seine in that city, and, having survived all the older ones, it is now the oldest itself.


Wasn't it the 9th bridge across the Seine? :wink:

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:19 pm UTC

Mikeski wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:nutrition and.... delicion."

Delicions are the elementary particles that carry flavor, right?
Nice, after only an hour and two minutes we already have conflicting pronunciations: de-lish-un vs de-lish-ee-on
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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:45 pm UTC

I would personally pronounce the 'c' like /s/ if I'm going to rhyme "delicion" with "fermion".
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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby orthogon » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:52 pm UTC

This thread is truly erudicious eruditious.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Muswell » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:54 pm UTC

GlassHouses wrote:
orthogon wrote:I like the way that something with "new" in the name is probably the second oldest of its type, for reasons that become obvious when you think about it.

I went to college in a city where the two churches downtown are known as the Old Church and the New Church. The former was completed 771 years ago; the latter, 521 years ago, and yes, they are the two oldest churches in town. :)
Counterexample: the Pont Neuf in Paris was not the second bridge across the Seine in that city, and, having survived all the older ones, it is now the oldest itself.


New College, Oxford was founded in 1379 and is now one of the oldest colleges.

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby speising » Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:03 pm UTC

Also, Windows N(ew)T(echnology)

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Mikeski » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:15 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:
Mikeski wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:nutrition and.... delicion."
Delicions are the elementary particles that carry flavor, right?
Nice, after only an hour and two minutes we already have conflicting pronunciations: de-lish-un vs de-lish-ee-on

What you're saying is, "we're completely on-topic."

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby teelo » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:27 am UTC

Is it normal to pronounce "confrontation" as "kon front ah tie on".

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:26 am UTC

speising wrote:Also, Windows N(ew)T(echnology)

Except that newer releases of windows are essentially new versions of NT, and the kernel is still named the NT kernel. So while it's not really new, it's still the latest.

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby tanstaafl » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:35 pm UTC

teelo wrote:Is it normal to pronounce "confrontation" as "kon front ah tie on".


Pronouncing it that way is almost sure to get you into a confrontation over your mis-pronunciation (pronounced "miss pro nuns a tie on").

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:26 pm UTC

Mikeski wrote:
Quizatzhaderac wrote:
Mikeski wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:nutrition and.... delicion."
Delicions are the elementary particles that carry flavor, right?
Nice, after only an hour and two minutes we already have conflicting pronunciations: de-lish-un vs de-lish-ee-on

What you're saying is, "we're completely on-topic."
Yes, but I'm saying it like ":Wear comp-let-el-y un tou-pick:"

For reference, the colon is "pronounced" by raising the eyebrows and tilting the head back on the first upside-down colon (it's super hard to tell them apart) then releasing on the second colon and a slight pause.
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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby chrisjwmartin » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:51 am UTC

Zinho wrote:
chrisjwmartin wrote:The best one was when I learned that the American tribe is not pronounced "Syowks".
Um, what? I can't decode that into a tribe name I'm familiar with.

Yup, "Sioux", like Mutex said. How is an non-French-speaker supposed to know that "Sioux" is pronounced like "Sue"?

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby GlassHouses » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:24 am UTC

chrisjwmartin wrote:
Zinho wrote:
chrisjwmartin wrote:The best one was when I learned that the American tribe is not pronounced "Syowks".
Um, what? I can't decode that into a tribe name I'm familiar with.

Yup, "Sioux", like Mutex said. How is an non-French-speaker supposed to know that "Sioux" is pronounced like "Sue"?

To be fair, even a French-speaker can't be expected to know Sioux is pronounced as Soo. If it were pronounced Syoo, yes, that would make sense (and maybe it was pronounced that way, back when that spelling was established, nearly 400 years ago).

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby orthogon » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:19 pm UTC

GlassHouses wrote:
chrisjwmartin wrote:
Zinho wrote:
chrisjwmartin wrote:The best one was when I learned that the American tribe is not pronounced "Syowks".
Um, what? I can't decode that into a tribe name I'm familiar with.

Yup, "Sioux", like Mutex said. How is an non-French-speaker supposed to know that "Sioux" is pronounced like "Sue"?

To be fair, even a French-speaker can't be expected to know Sioux is pronounced as Soo. If it were pronounced Syoo, yes, that would make sense (and maybe it was pronounced that way, back when that spelling was established, nearly 400 years ago).

I've forgotten my GCSE history. Did the Syoo live in Illinwa?
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1816: "Mispronunciation"

Postby Mikeski » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:53 pm UTC

orthogon wrote: Did the Syoo live in Illinwa?

(Taking the joking question seriously...) Northwest of there. They lived as close as Iowa.


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