1782: "Team Chat"

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Copper Bezel
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Copper Bezel » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:58 am UTC

I think between the punctuation-based emoticons we've always had and emoji, "just render the text" becomes a very viable option. But I notice that when I use Discord, where the client does everything as an image of the emoji on both ends, it still exists in the message sent in between as the descriptive string with colons on.

Any protocol actively resisting the existence of emoji is resisting its own relevance and what happens is going to be what happens.
Quizatzhaderac wrote:Our perceptions add an imaginary component to our real friends, making the relationship complex.

Soupspoon wrote:Even my real real friends are pretty much all irrational.


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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Soupspoon » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:58 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:Any protocol actively resisting the existence of emoji is resisting its own relevance and what happens is going to be what happens.

:sad face with a hint of possibly misplaced nostalgia for simpler times when we h4x0red our way through the seemingly impenetrable underbrush of the text-only medium, greeting everyone we met as fellow travelers in the wilderness who had arrived in the current clearing without even the benefit of a Google map, and if you needed to know what the TLA was, someone would tell you /where/ to RTFM instead of telling you to STFU; oh, those were the days... when men were men, women were often /also/ men and any cats were probably in pure ASCII; the sad face suddenly produces a handful of magic smoke and does the 'ninja badly vanishing' thing, awkwardly and self-consciously:

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Copper Bezel » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:13 pm UTC

Sure, but those are the people perfectly happy to use IRC until the species is extinct. They are exactly the people who do not need a new chat protocol.

I mean, I use rich text, inline images, and perpetual logs, but not emoji or graphical emoticons, myself. But I also just use Discord, and the fact that it supports emoji does not prevent me from doing that.

The whole fucking point of a universal protocol is to effectively address all of the most common use cases.

Edit: And yeah, I'm aware that text formatting as implemented in Discord is just formatting interpreted from the text string, using tokens that already look like the formatting and can be human read without it. I like when Ctrl+I works instead of *asterisking manually*, but it's perfectly fine if the text string actually sent just uses the asterisks and not any funky control characters. That's definitely a client thing that has nothing to do with the protocol proper.
Quizatzhaderac wrote:Our perceptions add an imaginary component to our real friends, making the relationship complex.

Soupspoon wrote:Even my real real friends are pretty much all irrational.


she / her / her

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby commodorejohn » Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:55 pm UTC

Any protocol actively resisting the plague of emoji is a blow struck for rightness and truth and will be honored in future history for its nobility after the Literacy Wars.
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby ahammel » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:08 pm UTC

You can also just turn off the damn emoji if you hate them that much.
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Copper Bezel » Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:22 pm UTC

But how will that help him validate himself as a human being? It doesn't even inconvenience someone.
Quizatzhaderac wrote:Our perceptions add an imaginary component to our real friends, making the relationship complex.

Soupspoon wrote:Even my real real friends are pretty much all irrational.


she / her / her

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby da Doctah » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:31 pm UTC

I guess I need to start posting things with :vaguely mottled yellow blob:.

You do realize, don't you, that at the usual level of magnification all emoticons look alike?

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Copper Bezel » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:00 pm UTC

Size of some text, :D of :) :shock:

I'm really not seeing it. How small is the text for you? = o
Quizatzhaderac wrote:Our perceptions add an imaginary component to our real friends, making the relationship complex.

Soupspoon wrote:Even my real real friends are pretty much all irrational.


she / her / her

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby commodorejohn » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:52 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:But how will that help him validate himself as a human being? It doesn't even inconvenience someone.

Damn straight!
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:48 am UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:Edit: And yeah, I'm aware that text formatting as implemented in Discord is just formatting interpreted from the text string, using tokens that already look like the formatting and can be human read without it. I like when Ctrl+I works instead of *asterisking manually*, but it's perfectly fine if the text string actually sent just uses the asterisks and not any funky control characters. That's definitely a client thing that has nothing to do with the protocol proper.

Those damn asterisks are why I've started raging against markdown. The use of asterisks to denote actions has been a well-established convention of the Internet for over a decade now. *scoffs* And of the places I've seen that use it, exactly one actually offers escape characters for people who dare to type messages that require upwards of one literal asterisk, and doesn't provide convenient access to a guide explaining this; and the others don't even have the decency to do that much.

I understand the reasoning behind markdown: maintaining backward compatibility, for whatever reason, with pure-text UIs that don't even offer the most basic of text formatting (although even those, in my experience, offer color and I think underlining). But actual applications for that are dwindling and highly specialized at this point, whereas I've seen markdown pop up in the most random places — who the hell needs to access YouTube comments via the Linux command line, for example?
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Eutychus » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:06 am UTC

Am I the only person to like fora?

I am on the committee of a voluntary, international organisation made up of people busy with other things locally, several of them in emerging nations with little bandwidth.

Skype conferences are difficult if not impossible due to bandwidth and time zones. E-mail exchanges get pushed down the inbox and are hard to sort. A discussion forum seems to me to be the perfect medium for a number of people to discuss seveal different topics over a long period of time, returning to the topics occasionally when they can. The topics don't get lost, stay separate, and remain available for the record for newcomers.

Having argued all this I got a phpbb forum set up and am running it as an admin... and nobody at all is using it :cry:

If I'm just out of date, what is the medium that does all of the above more accessibly?
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Copper Bezel » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:17 am UTC

Must concede the point on asterisks as markdown, and other ambiguities can happen. However, I think the intended advantage is not only that it works in text, but that a user familiar with common markdown systems can simply type them rather than interacting with any chrome or keybindings, and that's a definite advantage. I mean, we're generally doing it here with markup, right? Does anyone use the buttons? And markdown is naturally fewer keystrokes.

Eutychus wrote:Am I the only person to like fora?

Yes, clearly you are the only forum user on this forum. = /

But I like vacuum cleaners for vacuuming the floor and not for driving to work in the morning. I think people like Facebook groups or equivalents from G+ or LinkedIn and things for the sort of thing you're describing. I don't know why, as I neither use Facebook nor organize any voluntary international organizations. I think some of these "group" features operate very similarly to forums - Google+'s certainly resemble them.
Quizatzhaderac wrote:Our perceptions add an imaginary component to our real friends, making the relationship complex.

Soupspoon wrote:Even my real real friends are pretty much all irrational.


she / her / her

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby ucim » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:11 am UTC

Eutychus wrote:Having argued all this I got a phpbb forum set up and am running it as an admin... and nobody at all is using it :cry:
I feel your pain. I did the same thing, and pretty much nobody is even looking at it, let alone using it. (Well, I got one group to try it - we'll see). Things like facehook are unacceptable because they are too fast and loose with privacy; their business model is to vacuum up your personal information, digest it, and sell it.

But nobody seems to care. The answer to everything seems to be "let's just set up a facehook page".

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:26 am UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:Must concede the point on asterisks as markdown, and other ambiguities can happen. However, I think the intended advantage is not only that it works in text, but that a user familiar with common markdown systems can simply type them rather than interacting with any chrome or keybindings, and that's a definite advantage. I mean, we're generally doing it here with markup, right? Does anyone use the buttons? And markdown is naturally fewer keystrokes.

Eutychus wrote:Am I the only person to like fora?

Yes, clearly you are the only forum user on this forum. = /

But I like vacuum cleaners for vacuuming the floor and not for driving to work in the morning. I think people like Facebook groups or equivalents from G+ or LinkedIn and things for the sort of thing you're describing. I don't know why, as I neither use Facebook nor organize any voluntary international organizations. I think some of these "group" features operate very similarly to forums - Google+'s certainly resemble them.

For Facebook it works the same, except that they don't allow subfora, but many are setup to limit the number of people that can start a new topic. Also, not so much a functional difference as much as a cosmetic one: there are no topic titles, they use the start of the OP with any included picture instead, so it looks more messy.

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby commodorejohn » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:45 am UTC

I vastly prefer fora to any other form of online communication besides email, but they do, by their nature, pretty much require a dedicated administrative staff, so I'm not sure they'd be ideal for general team-organization purposes. But then, I've never tried them in that context, so I really have no idea.
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby The Moomin » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:38 am UTC

We just hurl abuse at each other across the room and hope no-one is on the phone to a client at the time.
I possibly don't pay enough attention to what's going on.
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Eutychus » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:49 am UTC

ucim wrote:
Eutychus wrote:Having argued all this I got a phpbb forum set up and am running it as an admin... and nobody at all is using it :cry:
I feel your pain. I did the same thing, and pretty much nobody is even looking at it, let alone using it. (Well, I got one group to try it - we'll see). Things like facehook are unacceptable because they are too fast and loose with privacy; their business model is to vacuum up your personal information, digest it, and sell it.

But nobody seems to care. The answer to everything seems to be "let's just set up a facehook page".

Jose


Maybe we could set up a forum together for disgruntled forum administrators? I'm sure there's a bright future in that.
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Mikeski » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:33 pm UTC

Eutychus wrote:Maybe we could set up a forum together for disgruntled forum administrators? I'm sure there's a bright future in that.


alt.sysadmin.recovery has been there since forever. :mrgreen:

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Copper Bezel » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:49 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:I vastly prefer fora to any other form of online communication besides email, but they do, by their nature, pretty much require a dedicated administrative staff, so I'm not sure they'd be ideal for general team-organization purposes. But then, I've never tried them in that context, so I really have no idea.

The other aspect is that anything imbedded in Facebook has a built in, well, in for existing Facebook users. It's the psychology of it. If you're already there, you check your group. The same isn't true of a forum someone gave you a link for once that you only visit when something reminds you to check this week. And it can only build up inertia if people are actively using it at the start, because otherwise no one will post on the assumption that no one will check because no one is posting.

And if the group can send notifications to your phone, fugeddaboutit. Or rather, unlike the forum case, you can't. =]
Quizatzhaderac wrote:Our perceptions add an imaginary component to our real friends, making the relationship complex.

Soupspoon wrote:Even my real real friends are pretty much all irrational.


she / her / her

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby ps.02 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:15 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:You can also just turn off the damn emoji if you hate them that much.

Well, when I configured Slack I didn't see that option. I'll check again, thanks.

ETA: Still don't see any such setting. A little help here?

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby ucim » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:33 pm UTC

Mikeski wrote:alt.sysadmin.recovery has been there since forever. :mrgreen:
It's useless if it doesn't support pdf documents containing video emoji as hotlinks. :)

Jose
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby ahammel » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:17 pm UTC

ps.02 wrote:
ahammel wrote:You can also just turn off the damn emoji if you hate them that much.

Well, when I configured Slack I didn't see that option. I'll check again, thanks.

ETA: Still don't see any such setting. A little help here?

Preferences > Messages & Media > Emoji Style > None: plain text only
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Copper Bezel » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:05 am UTC

ucim wrote:
Mikeski wrote:alt.sysadmin.recovery has been there since forever. :mrgreen:
It's useless if it doesn't support pdf documents containing video emoji as hotlinks. :)

Jose

Okay, hotlinking web resources into a PDF sounds like the most wonderfully creative perversity I've encountered in ages and I want to see it done, but what the hell is a video emoji?
Quizatzhaderac wrote:Our perceptions add an imaginary component to our real friends, making the relationship complex.

Soupspoon wrote:Even my real real friends are pretty much all irrational.


she / her / her

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby ps.02 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:08 am UTC

ahammel wrote:
ps.02 wrote:
ahammel wrote:You can also just turn off the damn emoji if you hate them that much.

Still don't see any such setting. A little help here?

Preferences > Messages & Media > Emoji Style > None: plain text only

Thanks! I didn't think to check the prefs of the Slack web app. It didn't occur to me that the web UI look and feel would affect the IRC gateway at all.

Anyway, turns out that's already how I had it set. This doesn't prevent Slack from inserting idiotic stuff like :slightly_smiling_face: into IRC. And I'm pretty sure my cow-orkers aren't actually typing that.

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Copper Bezel » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:00 am UTC

I presume that this is, indeed, "off". You have already turned off the emojis, which is why you are presently already not seeing them. Instead you see a text string presumably reflecting the name of the codepoint. :face_with_stuck-out_tongue_&_winking_eye:

Slightly Smiling Face @ Emojipedia
Quizatzhaderac wrote:Our perceptions add an imaginary component to our real friends, making the relationship complex.

Soupspoon wrote:Even my real real friends are pretty much all irrational.


she / her / her

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Eternal Density » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:36 am UTC

Thanks for reminding me to install tmux. I learned about it over a month ago but I forgot.

sudo apt-get install tmux

:face_with_ham_and_cheese_sandwitch_stuffed_into_mouth&winking_eye:
[edit]
Soupspoon wrote:
Flumble wrote:Souspoon, are you trying to say XMPP?

Hadn't heard of it, but when I looked it up I recognised its originator of Jabber (as one of those 'new fangled things that I'd never use', being an open(er) solution to proprietry AIM/etc, which I had never used).
1999 is newfangled to you?
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby ucim » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:47 am UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:Okay, hotlinking web resources into a PDF sounds like the most wonderfully creative perversity I've encountered in ages and I want to see it done, but what the hell is a video emoji?
I could tell you, but then you'd have to :eggplant wiggling on top of katani sword with eyeballs popping out, smiles optional depending on mouse position, monitor settings, and current weather in Bangladesh:

Jose
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Re: 1782: "Team Cut"

Postby Eternal Density » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:56 am UTC

ucim wrote:I could tell you, but then you'd have to :eggplant wiggling on top of katani sword with eyeballs popping out, smiles optional depending on mouse position, monitor settings, and current weather in Bangladesh:

Jose
Given that google gives a mere two pages of results for "katani sword", which your post (which was made in only a few minutes ago) being at the bottom of page one, I'm not certain that it's a real thing.

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby ucim » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:37 am UTC

Eternal Density wrote:Given that google gives a mere two pages of results for "katani sword", which your post (which was made in only a few minutes ago) being at the bottom of page one, I'm not certain that it's a real thing.
Google can't (yet) see inside video emoji links wrapped in pdfs. Just give them Time.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Old Bruce » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:41 am UTC

I saw an episode of Elementary which had a scene in the police station, Sherlock is pinning a printout (Full Page sized) of a poop emoji on the bulletin board and he is asked why "Poo! I thought it was a chocolate."

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:17 am UTC

Eternal Density wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:
Flumble wrote:Souspoon, are you trying to say XMPP?

Hadn't heard of it, but when I looked it up I recognised its originator of Jabber (as one of those 'new fangled things that I'd never use', being an open(er) solution to proprietry AIM/etc, which I had never used).
1999 is newfangled to you?
Thanks for making me feel young again.

Yes.
You're welcome.

Spoiler:
(To clarify, AIM had happened during a five year gap whilst I was still in the computer business but not really as net-connected as I had previously been, and was a bit of an unwelcome surprise update over the unix "chat" program I might have used beforehand, but now tied to an ISP in the way that I never felt tied to the unix servers upon which a Chat may have occured in my prior time (during which the Web was invented, just as I was getting used to Gopher...). In 1999 a lot of new fangled things were happening without necessarily piquing my intetest. I was mostly busy on a largely Windows 95 environment (some '98, some DOS-onlies, not Unix at all) and managing the MHS2Outlook gateway for my branch office as its primary e-messaging contact with the outside world. I think Yahoo was still a more viable directory than Google when it came to self-discovering web resources to waste time with (but generally distrusted as a service-provider beyond that, the fledgling social interfaces being social and not business, and none of the people I knew socially were 'on the Net'), and quite a lot of effort was being put into being Y2K-ready (although we had done all the initial testing in '98; in '99 it was mostly just remedial work, copious documentation and the like) whilst dealing with everyday luser questions and requests as always. Contacts outside the building tended to be a phone-call away if it was more urgent than an email (or at least you wanted to know if the email had been read, but not responded to, or was just flashing away at an empty desk half a world away, once you had determined (possibly?) that the hourly-scheduled ISDN dial-up between respective office mail servers had happened - if I'm not wrongly remembering a yet earlier set up. Still.. Simpler times! Sometimes I miss them...)

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby ahammel » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:59 pm UTC

ps.02 wrote:Anyway, turns out that's already how I had it set. This doesn't prevent Slack from inserting idiotic stuff like :slightly_smiling_face: into IRC. And I'm pretty sure my cow-orkers aren't actually typing that.
Right, they're sending emoji, so slack is instead giving you a text representation of those emoji. What did you want it to do?
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby ps.02 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:57 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
Eternal Density wrote:1999 is newfangled to you?
Thanks for making me feel young again.

Yes.
You're welcome.

Well, so, XMPP was birthed by open-source people who didn't like that ICQ, AIM and MSN Messenger were all beholden to corporate overlords, so XMPP is federated just like SMTP: your chat handle is formatted as an email address and your domain has one or more XMPP servers, which other servers federate with. It's also just about the only real-world use of DNS SRV records, a great idea that unfortunately has gotten almost no other mainstream traction.
Spoiler:
SRV lets you specify one or more servers for a given service, like MX records. While MX includes fail-over priority ranking, SRV also has more specific load-balancing. Also, it lets you pick your own TCP and UDP port numbers, so you can run more than one instance of a service per IP address, without hardcoding port numbers in URIs and the like.
XMPP may never have gone mainstream, but at some point Google set up an XMPP service for gmail.com, calling it Google Chat or some such, so that was a massive signal boost. Though I hear they may have later de-federated gmail.com from the rest of XMPP.

ObTopic: Slack has an XMPP gateway, but for one reason or another (I forget) the IRC gateway worked better for me.
ahammel wrote:
ps.02 wrote:This doesn't prevent Slack from inserting idiotic stuff like :slightly_smiling_face: into IRC. And I'm pretty sure my cow-orkers aren't actually typing that.
Right, they're sending emoji, so slack is instead giving you a text representation of those emoji. What did you want it to do?

I just confirmed with one friend, that his :slightly_smiling_face: was actually typed as : ) [without the space - phpBB sometimes does the same thing]. I guess Slack converts it lossfully into an emojy, then renders the emojy as text. So in short, I'd say when my friend types : ) then I'd like to see : ). That doesn't seem like too much to ask.

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby ahammel » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:13 pm UTC

ps.02 wrote:
ahammel wrote:
ps.02 wrote:This doesn't prevent Slack from inserting idiotic stuff like :slightly_smiling_face: into IRC. And I'm pretty sure my cow-orkers aren't actually typing that.
Right, they're sending emoji, so slack is instead giving you a text representation of those emoji. What did you want it to do?

I just confirmed with one friend, that his :slightly_smiling_face: was actually typed as : ) [without the space - phpBB sometimes does the same thing]. I guess Slack converts it lossfully into an emojy, then renders the emojy as text. So in short, I'd say when my friend types : ) then I'd like to see : ). That doesn't seem like too much to ask.
Your friend can turn off the punctuation-to-emoji conversion if they like (Preferences > Messages & Media > Convert Emoticons), but there's no reverse-translation from emoji to punctuation. I don't know exactly why that is, but if I had to guess I'd say it's because that's only even possible in a few cases (there's no punctuation representation of :rocket:, for instance), and not enough people actually want that for it to be worth their time.
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Flumble » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:02 pm UTC

Here's a rocket for you: }==>

ps.02 wrote:XMPP may never have gone mainstream, but at some point Google set up an XMPP service for gmail.com, calling it Google Chat or some such, so that was a massive signal boost. Though I hear they may have later de-federated gmail.com from the rest of XMPP.

On the great wiki it says XMPP is used in a couple of widely used programs, but it's all unfederated. (there might be something with the old google talk client or something, but other than that it's really insular)

And today I learned there's also another newcomer in town: matrix. It tries the monolithic approach instead of a bare standard and a thousand extensions.

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby ps.02 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:50 pm UTC

ahammel wrote:Your friend can turn off the punctuation-to-emoji conversion if they like (Preferences > Messages & Media > Convert Emoticons), but there's no reverse-translation from emoji to punctuation. I don't know exactly why that is, but if I had to guess I'd say it's because that's only even possible in a few cases (there's no punctuation representation of :rocket:, for instance), and not enough people actually want that for it to be worth their time.

Fair enough, though I think "a few cases" is misleading, if (as I suspect) emojies converted from emoticons are greatly overrepresented in total emojy frequency. Which is to say, none of my colleagues think it's awesome to use :that_pile_of_poo: everywhere. (Where did that trend come from, anyway? Was anyone actually clamoring for that icon before it appeared? Were people rendering it as, perhaps, ~oO ?)

My friend actually did discover the Slack setting you mentioned, and unchecked it, while we were talking about it. He and I agree that "mangle my text" shouldn't be enabled by default. In any case, my main beef is that the text-to-graphics operation is lossy, as text is a valid target.

Could be worse. At least he and I are no longer on the same dev team, trying to paste Perl code back and forth. You can imagine how that would work out.

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby ahammel » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:57 pm UTC

ps.02 wrote:(Where did that trend come from, anyway? Was anyone actually clamoring for that icon before it appeared? Were people rendering it as, perhaps, ~oO ?)
Character set that was used by Japanese telecoms way back when, I believe. It made its way into Unicode, iOS started supporting Unicode properly and the rest is history.
Could be worse. At least he and I are no longer on the same dev team, trying to paste Perl code back and forth. You can imagine how that would work out.
If you don't wrap your code snippets in ```code blocks``` you're a monster :)
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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 am UTC

On another forum with default mangling of entered text, where it wasn't uncommon to enter long numbered lists, the 8'th item would often end up emoting. It's been long enough since that forum was sufficiently active that I've lost the habit of defensively mangling my own lists (though I do still sometimes add defensive spaces to parenthesised items: )

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby chridd » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:24 am UTC

ps.02 wrote:: ) [without the space - phpBB sometimes does the same thing]
There's a "disable smilies" option below the submit button :)
~ chri d. d. · /tʃɹɪ.di.di/ (Phonotactics? What phonotactics?) · Forum game scores
mittfh wrote:I wish this post was very quotable...
flicky1991 wrote:In both cases the quote is "I'm being quoted too much!"

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Re: 1782: "Team Chat"

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:14 am UTC

On a monatomic system, that (when you don't tell it to do otherwise!) converts ":D" into the :D emoji, there could of course be a principle that encountering the :D emoji 'disassembles' back to the original ":D". (If this forum remains consistent, the <Colon><CapitalD> in quotes and the wide-grinned smiley without should both be preserved as intended. But a future phpBB upgrade or board migration might mess with such expectations. - And I actually tried to use the already mentioned "8)" / 8) smiley as an example, at first, but that looks not to be a replacement on this board. Currently!)

This is becuse of an expectation that people are writing in a plaintext (albeit beyond 7-bit ASCII, with Unicode support amd maybe more), with 'smiley images' being effectively a markup shortcut for on-presentation replacement with <img src="/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif" /> or similar. I've just checked, and the browser accepts a paste-in of an example emoji into this editing box, but (to my relief!) the forum software insists that "Your message contains the following unsupported characters:" and dissallows such in-stream emoji (even though it clearly can handle the one I give it, and displays it in the warning message).

Between systems, though, especially ones that accept either literal emoji codepoints or aliases and transmit them onwards, the receiving system isn't always well-enough equipped to do anything 'sensible' with a received emoji if the end-user even has the option of deconstructing it. If ":poo:" ever gets converted into a U+1F4A9 character then the best option (IMHO) would be to back-reference any official resource and make it into ":Pile of Poo:" (causing confusion when the original author used it in the context of chocolate and/or ice cream, having picked it for its appearance upin his own system when playfully intending to discuss desert options, perhaps!).

If someone renders something like "use Foo::poo::Bar;" unusable in a Perl listing by ignoring the standard code-bracketting/NoBBCing protections (on the original system of posting, at least) then that's their problem, but there's still a problem of conversion across systems or other transitions.


As an example of transitions going wtong, my habitual cinema's What's On-type app consistently displays film summaries with apostrophes rendered as "â€tm", due to ill-attended scripted conversions between source material and the App's presentation method. I have told staff-members this, but not too many times because I know they're not technical bods and I doubt I'd get a message to the real back-room bods to institute the correct back-fix1... I'd raised the same issue, continuously, with the Job Centre staff, a few years back during a period of unemployment, with their electronic systems filled with scraped-/pushed-from agency job summaries that contained such wierdnesses2 in job detail listings. Given the jobs they were making me look for (as much else as I was doing outside their office) was programming, I took satisifaction in explaining my ideas on how they should get their in-work tech guys'n'gals to fix the issue, and it seemed to help me get on with my own private job searches in peace.)


In summary, there's probably no single solution, but there are solutions. At least if the right people in the right places can be arsed to keep on top of things and make it so end-users get what they expect. Entirely dissallowing in-line emojis, in-house, works for me. I'm not even that bothered that not all my hand-typed smileys get pictographed. @8)


1 For the record, on one project of mine I ran regexps over final output to s/[FOO]//g for all alphanumeric and 'allowed' punctuation (including pre-processing of 'sensible' accented alphabetic combinations to basic alphabetic. If the result was a non-empty string (like "â€", in the above example) then I could chase down the hapless combo and institute a pre-pre-processing regexp (in advance of both presentatio and this null-stringing check, in future) to convert it to a more friendly combo, or else add in the equivalent to s/â€/aE/g to the pre-check if it was actually a valid, but novel, verbatim output. Some effort at the start, and the occasional bit of effort later as previously unseen exceptions came my way. But I liked that better than trusting to a library conversion (or checking!) routine that may well have been more thoroughly tested, but may also have been tested against different expectations to my own.

2 Mostly opening/closing quotes, originating from Word's "smartquote" autoconversion, I theorise, but ending up code-points or (literal) &htmlformat; replacements. More than once I saw "must have English &amp;amp; Maths skills", or similar/worse, where unequally iterative referencing/dereferencing of an originally literal ampersand had occured! Also, the spelling was often awful, but we all make typos. And things like "Must know Windows 9S/9B" is probably down to a non-technical secretary reading a hand-scrawl...


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