1779: "2017"

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby CBusAlex » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:09 pm UTC

qvxb wrote:I'm going to perform at Uncle Donald's inauguration in January. I can't decide between "Another Brick in the Wall" and "You're No Good".


If you're going Floyd, I would suggest "In the Flesh".

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Opus_723 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:57 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
All population amounts level off and oscillate around carrying capacity eventually.

There's no reason to extrapolate exponential growth indefinitely. It's super normal in all kinds of growth initially, but it invariably tapers off at some point. Seriously, a lot of work has been put into studying growth patterns, none of this should be at all surprising.


I've seen those graphs. They shouldn't be reassuring. The amplitude and damping of those oscillations matters A LOT.

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Stargazer71 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:29 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:After fifteen years of the same discredited, specious arguments being used to stall discussions of climate change and prevent us doing anything about it, shooting the next generation of idiots really does look like a wonderful idea


:shock: ... wow ... and liberals claimed Trump supporters were violent.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one and assume that this was a really inappropriate joke that made nobody laugh.

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby markfiend » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:15 pm UTC

Stargazer71 wrote:I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one and assume that this was a really inappropriate joke that made nobody laugh.

No joke about it. The only good fascist is a dead fascist.

Edit: Anyway, I though that according to various right-wing-arseholes, saying this sort of carp online is just freezepeach, not violence. The real violence is the Trumpists kicking seven shades of shit out of people at his rallies.
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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Stargazer71 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:49 pm UTC

markfiend wrote:
Stargazer71 wrote:I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one and assume that this was a really inappropriate joke that made nobody laugh.

No joke about it. The only good fascist is a dead fascist.

Edit: Anyway, I though that according to various right-wing-arseholes, saying this sort of carp online is just freezepeach, not violence. The real violence is the Trumpists kicking seven shades of shit out of people at his rallies.


So, in your mind, eliminating dissent through mass murder is ... something other than fascism, because you're trying to get rid of fascism? Am I understanding you correctly?

Once again, typical modern liberal. Silence dissent (in your case through the use of guns**), because free discourse is just too hard.


**On a side note, are you by any chance one of those liberals that constantly shouts in favor of gun control? Because if you are then that would make this ... shall we say ... awkward.

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:59 pm UTC

Stargazer71 wrote:So, in your mind, eliminating dissent through mass murder is ... something other than fascism, because you're trying to get rid of fascism? Am I understanding you correctly?

Once again, typical modern liberal. Silence dissent (in your case through the use of guns**), because free discourse is just too hard.


That sounds like a typical appeasenik position to me - if someone wants to take away your freedoms and your life, you should let them because the only alternative - using force to resist them - is wrong. Am I understanding you correctly?

(you're right, demolishing straw men is fun...)

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Sableagle » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:03 pm UTC

Opus_723 wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
All population amounts level off and oscillate around carrying capacity eventually.

There's no reason to extrapolate exponential growth indefinitely. It's super normal in all kinds of growth initially, but it invariably tapers off at some point. Seriously, a lot of work has been put into studying growth patterns, none of this should be at all surprising.


I've seen those graphs. They shouldn't be reassuring. The amplitude and damping of those oscillations matters A LOT.


Image

Oscillation and damping are features of the old "sharks and fishes" thing that ran a very small, closed system. I added graphs of population against time in the spare space and then replaced the distribution display with a graph of shark population against fish population. It's got a roughly triangular loop of Strange Attractor, with two possible exits: all the fish die (top left corner hits left wall) and all the sharks die (bottom left corner forever) or all the sharks die (bottom left corner hits bottom wall) and so the fish reach dynamic equilibrium (sliding back and forth along bottom wall) with some really big crowding-starving-crashing-recovering cycles.

Given a much larger environment with much more variability across it and a much larger number of species, the totals get smoothed by different timings of events in different regions, but regional populations can still go through those big cycles and, with near-light-speed communications and motor vehicles and the like, individuals can try to avoid the crashes by relocating. You also get a little something known as fighting over resources.
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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Stargazer71 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:03 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Stargazer71 wrote:So, in your mind, eliminating dissent through mass murder is ... something other than fascism, because you're trying to get rid of fascism? Am I understanding you correctly?

Once again, typical modern liberal. Silence dissent (in your case through the use of guns**), because free discourse is just too hard.


That sounds like a typical appeasenik position to me - if someone wants to take away your freedoms and your life, you should let them because the only alternative - using force to resist them - is wrong. Am I understanding you correctly?

(you're right, demolishing straw men is fun...)


Demolishing straw men sure is fun, because if you believe that Trump supporters want to take away your life, then you are fighting an ideological battle that exists solely within your own mind.

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Sableagle » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:05 pm UTC

markfiend wrote:
Flumble wrote:
Sableagle wrote:
Flumble wrote:*does English have a good pejorative for being negligent/rash/short-sighted/careless/childish/unthinking?
"Trump supporter."

Kind of, but I'm looking for the English word, not the American one. :wink:

Brexiteer

I was torn between "Farage" and "Petrolhead."
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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby somitomi » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:24 pm UTC

Talking about graphs and charts, I did some math too:
1779_2017.gif
1779_2017.gif (3.33 KiB) Viewed 2758 times

:mrgreen:
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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Vahir » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:26 pm UTC

Stargazer71 wrote:Demolishing straw men sure is fun, because if you believe that Trump supporters want to take away your life, then you are fighting an ideological battle that exists solely within your own mind.


Check out this kid, saying other people are using strawmen. The irony is enough to shatter reality.

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Stargazer71 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:34 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:
Stargazer71 wrote:Demolishing straw men sure is fun, because if you believe that Trump supporters want to take away your life, then you are fighting an ideological battle that exists solely within your own mind.


Check out this kid, saying other people are using strawmen. The irony is enough to shatter reality.


I responded to a guy who said he wanted to literally shoot people who disagreed with him on Climate Change. Perhaps he's quite alone in his extreme views, but he is not a straw man.

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Vahir » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:57 pm UTC

You said

Stargazer71 wrote:Once again, typical modern liberal. Silence dissent (in your case through the use of guns**), because free discourse is just too hard.


Which is a straw man. You're saying liberals want to mass murder people they disagree with. The guy you quoted is obviously joking, trolling, or crazy. It's incredibly frustrating that you seem to know what a straw man is, but you then apply the most extreme, insane views to everyone you disagree with (i.e. "liberals"). Mass murder is not a liberal value.

It's something I see a lot from the right; liberals are baby murdering, communist, muslim autocrats who want to take your guns and put you in the camps, but god forbid you ascribe the desire to gut programs that save people's lives to someone who supports candidates that do so.

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby markfiend » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:11 pm UTC

Shooting fascists isn't silencing dissent, it's self-defence.

Anyway.

Trump supporters do want to take away my friend's life. She won't be able to afford any more chemo without The Affordable Care Act.

I'm not actually "one of those liberals who" anything. My own political views are pretty much anarcho-syndicalist.

And again, reading comprehension fail. I'm not arguing, I'm laughing at you sweetheart.
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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Keyman » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:39 pm UTC

markfiend wrote:Shooting fascists isn't silencing dissent, it's self-defence.

Anyway.

Trump supporters do want to take away my friend's life. She won't be able to afford any more chemo without The Affordable Care Act.

I'm not actually "one of those liberals who" anything. My own political views are pretty much anarcho-syndicalist.

And again, reading comprehension fail. I'm not arguing, I'm laughing at you sweetheart.

I wasn't quite sure, (as Monty Python is hardly a source of truth) so I googled "anarcho-syndicalism". One of the "People also ask" questions was:

Is libertarianism anarchy?
With this answer supplied.
Libertarians want severely limited government and anarchists want none. Libertarians are to anarchists as nudists are to naked people.They're just middle class & organized so they appear less crazy. An anarchist is an extreme libertarian, like a socialist is an extreme democrat, and a fascist is an extreme republican.

Do we assume the lower-case 'r' is a typo?
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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby somitomi » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:44 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:Talking about graphs and charts, I did some math too:
1779_2017.gif
:mrgreen:

The overall trend isn't that surprising if you don't count things like int(pi) or e to the pi times i...
graph_xkcd.png
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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby markfiend » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:51 pm UTC

OK seriously?

In an ideal world I would be an anarcho-syndicalist. However I recognise that in the real world, government is necessary. I prefer my government to be of a decidedly socialist flavour.

Further...
Stargazer71 wrote:**On a side note, are you by any chance one of those liberals that constantly shouts in favor of gun control? Because if you are then that would make this ... shall we say ... awkward.

... Strawman. There are many positions between 2nd amendment absolutism and a complete ban. On the whole, the system in the UK kills a couple of people fewer than that in the USA. I think I prefer our gun controls to yours.

Oh and edit: I want nothing to do with the horrible politics associated in the US with the word 'libertarian'. They're extreme capitalists, whereas I am an extreme socialist.

Edit again :
As I'm being serious now, I should probably clarify that I was not serious with calling for anyone's death, and I apologise for saying it even jokingly.

So yeah, awkward. :mrgreen:
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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Flumble » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:15 pm UTC

So, Uruguay...

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby x7eggert » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:29 pm UTC

markfiend wrote:Edit: Anyway, I though that according to various right-wing-arseholes, saying this sort of carp online is just freezepeach, not violence. The real violence is the Trumpists kicking seven shades of shit out of people at his rallies.


Off cause it is - if _they_ do it. Their lies and hate crimes are "free speech", and your "liberal" backtalk is - in their 198 twist of words - fascism and violence. Facts are propaganda, war is peace, slavery to Uncle Sam is freedom, ignorance is strength. Ironically enough they don't even know what liberal means.

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby madaco » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:54 pm UTC

Oh! See these "frozen peaches" and "wet knees",

As we all drink down those sweet <outgroup> tears.

What truths can be found from barbs such as these?

No comedy will calm these restless fears!

_____

But the important thing is I've found a way to feel superior to both of them.
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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Tallest Skil » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:13 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:Which is a straw man. You're saying liberals want to mass murder people they disagree with. The guy you quoted is obviously joking, trolling, or crazy.

And he proves the claim that was made. Try the fuck harder.

the most extreme, insane views to everyone you disagree with (i.e. “liberals”)

Nope, only the historical reference thereto.

Mass murder is not a liberal value.

lol, the USSR and China disagree. Do you have an argument based in any way in history, or would you like to just stop?

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:39 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Mambrino wrote:Well, this year, I started to take different forms of Doomsday argument a tiny bit more seriously.

The form of the argument that I've found slightly unnerving: what is the chance that the world population distribution over time will resemble a) sigmoid until eternity, b) exponential until fast collapse, c) Gaussian or other form with a fatter right tail than b)? Whatever you think it is, pick a random human from that particular distribution. That's you. Then look at the estimated history of number of humans before you. How lucky you feel?


All population amounts level off and oscillate around carrying capacity eventually.

There's no reason to extrapolate exponential growth indefinitely. It's super normal in all kinds of growth initially, but it invariably tapers off at some point. Seriously, a lot of work has been put into studying growth patterns, none of this should be at all surprising.
"Exponential growth indefinitely" wasn't one of the options, so I'm not sure why you're so helpfully pointing out that there's no reason to extrapolate it, seeing as no one was extrapolating it.

The option with "exponential" in the description continued with "until fast collapse". It's the collapse that's worrying about that scenario, or equivalently it's the steepness of the oscillations, because that means billions of dead people.

Stargazer71 wrote:Demolishing straw men sure is fun, because if you believe that Trump supporters want to take away your life, then you are fighting an ideological battle that exists solely within your own mind.
If you're a decently well-off able-bodied straight white man, sure. Trump supporters don't want to kill me or take away my means of continuing to survive. But if they want to take away insurance for millions of people, then they want something that will kill however many of those people end up dying as a result of an inability to afford medical care. If they want to allow doctors to refuse to treat trans people or women who've had abortions, then they want to take medical care from those people even if they still have insurance, which has the same result. If they want to deregulate things like the food we eat, then the effect will be additional deaths due to tainted products, and they want that too.

I know people who are alive now because the ACA meant they could see a doctor. Some of those people might literally die in the next four years if that's taken away.

Tallest Skil wrote:
Vahir wrote:Which is a straw man. You're saying liberals want to mass murder people they disagree with. The guy you quoted is obviously joking, trolling, or crazy.

And he proves the claim that was made. Try the fuck harder.
The trolling "we should kill people who disagree with climate change" is not in any way equivalent to the more serious "we should kill fascists".

And neither of those is at all equivalent to a general suggestion to "mass murder people they disagree with". If you disagree with me about pineapple on pizza, I have no problem with your continuing to exist with that belief (after all it just means more pineapple for me). If you disagree with me about my right to not go to a concentration camp for my race or religious beliefs (i.e. if you're a fascist in the common sense of the term), then you are a threat to me and I will defend myself accordingly.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Vahir » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:11 pm UTC

Tallest Skil wrote:
Vahir wrote:Which is a straw man. You're saying liberals want to mass murder people they disagree with. The guy you quoted is obviously joking, trolling, or crazy.

And he proves the claim that was made. Try the fuck harder.

the most extreme, insane views to everyone you disagree with (i.e. “liberals”)

Nope, only the historical reference thereto.

Mass murder is not a liberal value.

lol, the USSR and China disagree. Do you have an argument based in any way in history, or would you like to just stop?


>Doesn't understand the meaning of the word "prove"
>Says the USSR, PRC were liberal societies
>Cherry picking (inappropriate) historical cases to prove point

Image

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:03 pm UTC

It's especially hilarious because Tallest Skil likes to try to silence the people who disagree with him in these discussions by reporting their posts for things like "racism" and "genocide".
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:53 pm UTC

TheGhost wrote:I absolutely agree with StarGazer71. The biased mainstream media has been ingraining the idea that a Trump presidency is equivalent to the apocalypse in the minds of unsuspecting children and sheeple like Randall. It's sad to see xkcd becoming more and more Randall's platform to espouse his political views.
Just out of curiosity just what should he do with his cartoon, adjust it to suit you? If it didn't represent his point of view than it wouldn't have anything to say. Please try harder.

As to Trump and the apocalypse, time will tell. The Republicans now own it. Good, bad or indifferent. And we'll get a reality check 2 years from now. If things go sideways likely that will cause the Republicans to not be in control of both houses. And 4 years from now Trump will no longer be the outsider with no record. If he turns out to be a good President then it's a win win. If he doesn't then the system will dump him like yesterdays trash.

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:49 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
TheGhost wrote:I absolutely agree with StarGazer71. The biased mainstream media has been ingraining the idea that a Trump presidency is equivalent to the apocalypse in the minds of unsuspecting children and sheeple like Randall. It's sad to see xkcd becoming more and more Randall's platform to espouse his political views.
Just out of curiosity just what should he do with his cartoon, adjust it to suit you? If it didn't represent his point of view than it wouldn't have anything to say. Please try harder.

As to Trump and the apocalypse, time will tell. The Republicans now own it. Good, bad or indifferent. And we'll get a reality check 2 years from now. If things go sideways likely that will cause the Republicans to not be in control of both houses. And 4 years from now Trump will no longer be the outsider with no record. If he turns out to be a good President then it's a win win. If he doesn't then the system will dump him like yesterdays trash.

Or everyone who is unlikely to agree with him dies/has their citizenship or right to vote revoked and he gets reelected by a numerical minority.

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby chridd » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:02 am UTC

PinkShinyRose wrote:
morriswalters wrote:As to Trump and the apocalypse, time will tell. The Republicans now own it. Good, bad or indifferent. And we'll get a reality check 2 years from now. If things go sideways likely that will cause the Republicans to not be in control of both houses. And 4 years from now Trump will no longer be the outsider with no record. If he turns out to be a good President then it's a win win. If he doesn't then the system will dump him like yesterdays trash.

Or everyone who is unlikely to agree with him dies/has their citizenship or right to vote revoked and he gets reelected by a numerical minority.
Or he convinces enough people that he's doing a good job when he's actually not; or he does good things for slightly more than 50% of voters and is horrible to the rest of the country (doesn't even have to be 50% because of third parties and because everything's done by state); or there are enough people who don't like Trump but vote Republican because they like the Republican party; or his Democratic opposition, and enough Democratic congressional candidates in two years, are disliked enough... or of course some combination of these.
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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby morriswalters » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:06 am UTC

PinkShinyRose wrote:Or everyone who is unlikely to agree with him dies/has their citizenship or right to vote revoked and he gets reelected by a numerical minority.
chridd wrote:Or he convinces enough people that he's doing a good job when he's actually not; or he does good things for slightly more than 50% of voters and is horrible to the rest of the country (doesn't even have to be 50% because of third parties and because everything's done by state); or there are enough people who don't like Trump but vote Republican because they like the Republican party; or his Democratic opposition, and enough Democratic congressional candidates in two years, are disliked enough... or of course some combination of these.
That's the ticket. Imagine the worst. Then you can be happy if it doesn't turn out that way.

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:24 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:That's the ticket. Imagine the worst. Then you can be happy if it doesn't turn out that way.

That's been my life strategy for going on close to a decade now and it doesn't seem to be working out very well because the bad things usually happen even when I expect them to (and then I still can't be happy if they don't because I'm still expecting them to, it's never over, threats are constant, security is impossible).
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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby morriswalters » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:22 am UTC

I'm sorry, that was sarcasm. As a life strategy it stinks. In the main I find life to be mostly tedium which gives me time to worry about things I can't do anything about. My happiest times are my busiest times. In 1987 I was working 16 hours a day, 7 days a week starting at the end of September. The stock market crashed in October in an event called Black Monday. By the time I had time to worry the event had passed.

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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:50 pm UTC

I know it was sarcasm but I felt like replying how I did anyway.

Most of my troubles are from being TOO busy. I have a never ending to do list that keeps getting added to and that I have to keep churning through more and more slowly because the routine stuff filling up every day gets busier and busier and keeps me from ever having the time or energy to get to anything on the list.
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Re: 1779: "2017"

Postby morriswalters » Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:06 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I know it was sarcasm but I felt like replying how I did anyway.
Ok. I just wanted to be sure.


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