cupric wrote:You took a single parameter -- your mom's government income -- implicitly declared it to be the most important measure of her well-being, made a guess as to how it might change in the future, assumed this to be Objective Science Fact, and then publicly impugned her sanity because she won't accept this chain of "reasoning".
This is assinine. If someone does
manage to come up with a not fundamentally stupid reason to support a candidate, and it's demonstrable that supporting the candidate won't actually achieve that, it is absolutely correct to point out they are not acting in their own best interests. No point of that requires that you "decide what's in their best interests for them", it just requires you to be less stupid.
For the few people voting for Trump to "bring the jobs back" -- well, the jobs are fucking gone, due to automation. Bringing them back will, at best, be heavily subsidized, mostly unproductive, and lead to a lot of disaster, as with the proposal to bring back coal mining. Better solutions -- massive retraining efforts, or some sort of New Deal-style makework to have people work on our ailing infrastructure. Or like with the wall -- the whole thing is a complete joke of a solution to the "problem", and will essentially be pissing money down the drain and accomplishing nothing.
For people who wanted Bernie's progressivism to succeed and thought the solution to that was to ignore Bernie's advice and keep attacking Clinton through the general campaigning -- good job, fuckers.
It is absolutely
the job of a responsible government to say "tell us what you value, and we'll figure out a way to bring it to you, even if you don't agree with how we do it". If people had their way, no one would ever pay taxes -- but they'd be shocked that they can't afford to see a doctor. Fuck, people like Trump and Steve Jobs weasel their way out of paying taxes and then bitch about how the government isn't providing essential services.
The question isn't why she trusts internet wahoos more than you, it's why she still bothers talking to you. She takes those people seriously because they give voice to her concerns and speak to her as a rational moral agent, rather than an idiot child.
is why I don't put much trust in people who go on and on about how people supporting some apparently self-destructive agenda "must have some unknown, rational reason for it".
Because you're fucking making it up, and it's a whole exercise in faithless devil's advocating, or even worse, outright dishonesty.
Fuck, man, I've met people, in person, whose reasons for voting for Trump were explicitly racist. A lot of them. Some of them are extended family. I don't invite these conversations, either. Sometimes it's people on the street talking about how "we need to get rid of Muslims because they have the nerve to come over to this country and not integrate to the existing culture" and it's like are you fucking serious
The only way you can possibly believe that liberals are just making this all up is if you are purposefully trying to be disingenuous and dishonest. You don't have a good reason to doubt the liberal's honesty in recounting their experience, you don't have evidence for your claim (trying to prove a negative), all you have is bald-faced "but I want them to be the good guys despite all evidence to the contrary!" partisanship. It's bullshit.
a rational moral agent, rather than an idiot child.
Bigots essentially are
idiot children. That's the whole crux of why bigotry is bad, is that it is not only unjust but self-destructive. Even the biggest apologists for why you should not call out racism keep talking about how you have to show them how something is "not in their interests", that it's the way to get through to them.
There's no ethical or rational compromising with bigotry. There's manipulative attempts to sidestep it or subvert it
, but you cannot simultaneously ethically and honestly sell a policy on how it will accomplish the goals of the KKK. Either you're lying to the KKK and trying to trick them into the vote, or you're a monster.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.