1703: "Juno"

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1703: "Juno"

Postby vodka.cobra » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:22 pm UTC

Image

alt-text: "The name wasn't a tip-off?" "Honestly, at first I thought you were saying 'Juneau'. A gravity assist seemed like a weird way to get to Alaska, but I figured it must be more efficient or something."

---

Clearly this one-second delay is a lie. Look at the name Juno; it should have arrived last month (in June). Checkmate, NASA.
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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby Mahnarch » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:29 pm UTC

When Juno showed up it was unexpectedly pregnant.


[As clever as NASA is; I'm surprised they didn't put a smaller satellite inside Juno that would launch into the atmosphere right away - for comparisons]

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby Flumble » Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:32 pm UTC

What if it arrived late? Would it get a stern talking-to? Would Jupiter close its time window? It's a bit harsh to be punished for being just a few seconds late after a journey of nearly 5 years.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby cellocgw » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:12 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:What if it arrived late? Would it get a stern talking-to? Would Jupiter close its time window? It's a bit harsh to be punished for being just a few seconds late after a journey of nearly 5 years.


Don't worry: there's no such thing as simultaneity anyway.
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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby jc » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:21 pm UTC

I'd be a bit curious about such a claim. How exactly do you define "arrive"? Considering that the "orbital insertion" firing of engine lasted for about 35 minutes, and Juno didn't reach any well-defined surface (which Jupiter may not even have), it looks like they could simply claim "arrival time" as anywhere within a window of at least an hour.

So is there some well-defined meaning that would make such a claim verifable? Or is it just PR?

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby trpmb6 » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:27 pm UTC

jc wrote:I'd be a bit curious about such a claim. How exactly do you define "arrive"? Considering that the "orbital insertion" firing of engine lasted for about 35 minutes, and Juno didn't reach any well-defined surface (which Jupiter may not even have), it looks like they could simply claim "arrival time" as anywhere within a window of at least an hour.

So is there some well-defined meaning that would make such a claim verifable? Or is it just PR?



I think that's (potentially) what Randall is pointing out. The absurdity of celebrating an arrival time that is by the very nature of orbital mechanics and the maneuvers required by Juno on approach would result in achieving the desired result. It's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. We need X so we will perform Y (orbital insertion) to achieve X.
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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby JPatten » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:55 pm UTC

On the other hand, it is somewhat Accurate, I think it was phil Plait over on the bad astronomy blog who said the retro burn ran within one second of projections after a 35 minute burn. Which was noted as being Very good

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby da Doctah » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:58 pm UTC

Mahnarch wrote:When Juno showed up it was unexpectedly pregnant.


[As clever as NASA is; I'm surprised they didn't put a smaller satellite inside Juno that would launch into the atmosphere right away - for comparisons]


My first mental image when I saw the headline was of the probe radioing back "Can you just hold on for a second, I'm on my hamburger phone."

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby keithl » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:59 pm UTC

jc wrote:I'd be a bit curious about such a claim. How exactly do you define "arrive"?

Jeez, doen u giys no nuttin?
Juno "ariyvd" win she smakt intoo kristalin sfeer number 6, liyk wut Taw Limme sed.
It wuz Jewlie 4, aftur dark. I herd duh bang owtsiyd, and der wuz a briyt liyt and sum laffing kids.
Den I past owt agin. Dat wuz sum dam good meed.
Some crap frum duh sfeer musta hit my maylbox. It wuz roont duh nex mornin.
I doen no abowt deez newfangeld "seconds", doh ... my owerglas ownlee duz minits.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby Eternal Density » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:12 pm UTC

keithl wrote:
jc wrote:I'd be a bit curious about such a claim. How exactly do you define "arrive"?

Jeez, doen u giys no nuttin?
Juno "ariyvd" win she smakt intoo kristalin sfeer number 6, liyk wut Taw Limme sed.
It wuz Jewlie 4, aftur dark. I herd duh bang owtsiyd, and der wuz a briyt liyt and sum laffing kids.
Den I past owt agin. Dat wuz sum dam good meed.
Some crap frum duh sfeer musta hit my maylbox. It wuz roont duh nex mornin.
I doen no abowt deez newfangeld "seconds", doh ... my owerglas ownlee duz minits.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:19 am UTC

jc wrote:I'd be a bit curious about such a claim. How exactly do you define "arrive"? Considering that the "orbital insertion" firing of engine lasted for about 35 minutes, and Juno didn't reach any well-defined surface (which Jupiter may not even have), it looks like they could simply claim "arrival time" as anywhere within a window of at least an hour.

So is there some well-defined meaning that would make such a claim verifable? Or is it just PR?

I doubt it's either externally verifiable or just PR, meaning something like "all our calculations from five years ago worked out, and we didn't have to adjust anything, so the insertion burn fired on the expected second of the internal clock."
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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby orthogon » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:06 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:What if it arrived late? Would it get a stern talking-to? Would Jupiter close its time window? It's a bit harsh to be punished for being just a few seconds late after a journey of nearly 5 years.

I've often thought that lateness ought to be expressed relative to the journey time, making it a dimensionless quantity. On the other hand, by that measure it's easy to be spectacularly late to nearby events. For example I confess to having been 100% late to a meeting in the local pub, 5 minutes away, whereas I'd never dream of being an hour late to something on the other side of town. In practice I think the perceived lateness is probably a combination of the absolute and relative values, thought the late arriver and the waiters probably have different weightings for the two.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:33 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:For example I confess to having been 100% late to a meeting in the local pub, 5 minutes away, whereas I'd never dream of being an hour late to something on the other side of town. In practice I think the perceived lateness is probably a combination of the absolute and relative values, thought the late arriver and the waiters probably have different weightings for the two.
There might even be a negative/inverse correlation to lateness vs magnitude of trip.

When I briefly had to travel for two hours to work, I could just hasten my transit slightly (if I was a bit tardy out of the door) and usually make up the time. When I was living 10 minutes' drive from work, if I was late starting I was already not there on time...

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:52 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
orthogon wrote:For example I confess to having been 100% late to a meeting in the local pub, 5 minutes away, whereas I'd never dream of being an hour late to something on the other side of town. In practice I think the perceived lateness is probably a combination of the absolute and relative values, thought the late arriver and the waiters probably have different weightings for the two.
There might even be a negative/inverse correlation to lateness vs magnitude of trip.

When I briefly had to travel for two hours to work, I could just hasten my transit slightly (if I was a bit tardy out of the door) and usually make up the time. When I was living 10 minutes' drive from work, if I was late starting I was already not there on time...


It also depends how you're getting there - walking or driving, you have a significant influence over the time it takes (though there are also external factors). If you're using public transport, then a 5 minute delay setting out can easily be an hour's delay in arriving - while leaving 5 minutes earlier makes no difference.

Precision of time-keeping also matters - if you're only timing things to the nearest 5 minutes, then that gives a rather different experience than timing things to the nearest 30 seconds or so. And, of course, if you're just going for some time during a 2 hour period, then "late" is pretty tricky to determine.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby DanD » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:51 pm UTC

Any adjustment factor for lateness also needs to take into account the type of event, and schedule. If you're 30 minutes late to an all day event with no set schedule, it's no big deal. That same thirty minutes late to an all day sporting event, where you were supposed to be in the first round is problematic.

Likewise, 30 minutes late to an hour meeting is problematic, 30 minutes late to pick up a farm share during an hour window (okay, that isn't really late, as such) is a non-issue.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby orthogon » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:57 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote: If you're using public transport, then a 5 minute delay setting out can easily be an hour's delay in arriving - while leaving 5 minutes earlier makes no difference.

When taking public transport, I'm not convinced that arrival time is even a monotonic function of departure time.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby Whizbang » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:09 pm UTC

Seeing as how I travelled all the way from 1982 just to be here, you could cut me a little slack on the 30 minutes late thing.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:48 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
rmsgrey wrote: If you're using public transport, then a 5 minute delay setting out can easily be an hour's delay in arriving - while leaving 5 minutes earlier makes no difference.

When taking public transport, I'm not convinced that arrival time is even a monotonic function of departure time.


In most circumstances, it is, but there are plenty of exceptions too.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby Aiwendil » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:05 am UTC

OK, I'm confused by the alt-text. "The name wasn't a tip-off?" Why would the name "Juno" be a tip-off that it was intended to go to Saturn? Juno was Jupiter's wife, which is the obvious real-world reason for the name.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:58 am UTC

Aiwendil wrote:OK, I'm confused by the alt-text. "The name wasn't a tip-off?" Why would the name "Juno" be a tip-off that it was intended to go to Saturn? Juno was Jupiter's wife, which is the obvious real-world reason for the name.

She was also Saturn's daughter.

The scenario as I saw it was:
1) Decision to create probe to go to Jupiter (or maybe Saturn)
2) Decision to call it Juno as wife of Jupiter (or daughter of Saturn)
3) Whether or not they understand (1) correctly, or
3a) Getting the right name reference from (2),
...someone calibrates it (ostensibly) to get to Saturn,
4) They 'miss' Saturn, and it gets to Jupiter instead..
(5+ depends on who is talking in the titletext.)

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:17 am UTC

And Jupiter was Saturn's son, so I guess you'd expect any probe sent to Jupiter to be really meant to end up at Saturn by that same logic.

And Saturn was Uranus's son, so I guess when you carry that train of thought far enough everything ends up shoved up Uranus.
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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby serutan » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:05 am UTC

Mahnarch wrote:[As clever as NASA is; I'm surprised they didn't put a smaller satellite inside Juno that would launch into the atmosphere right away - for comparisons]


They already did that with Galileo, and coming up with something that would do better was likely too expensive.
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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby Weeks » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:41 am UTC

Whizbang wrote:Seeing as how I travelled all the way from 1982 just to be here, you could cut me a little slack on the 30 minutes late thing.
Nice
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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby PsiCubed » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:23 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:And Saturn was Uranus's son, so I guess when you carry that train of thought far enough everything ends up shoved up Uranus.


So, it has come to this.
Image

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby garicgymro » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:30 pm UTC

I'm curious about how people read the alt text. Who speaks first? Who was supposed to be tipped off by the name? Nasa or the press? Or it a dialogue between two NASA people? Two members of the press?

The world needs to know.

(In case you think the answer's obvious: See the explainxkcd page for this comic.)

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby Mike Rosoft » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:58 pm UTC

* Jupiter's moons are named after the lovers and children of the god Jupiter/Zeus.
* The probe is named after Jupiter's wife Juno.
* I think that Jupiter has some explaining to do...

(Okay, not my idea - already noticed by somebody [read: everybody] else on Facebook.)

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby addams » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:17 pm UTC

Juno, the space probe.
Named after a kind and benevolent mother figure.
http://myths.e2bn.org/mythsandlegends/u ... -juno.html
Some ways that Hera, from the Greek myths, and Juno, from the Roman myth, are similar are that they are both the queen and the mother of their own country and they are both worshipped as the goddess of marriage and birth, so they were both very important, especially to women; however, they are different in the ways that Hera is often jealous of Zeus’s various girlfriends, and she spends most of her life putting curses on them, when Juno is often shown a kind and a graceful mother of Rome.

In my mind's eye, the probe's namesake is an interesting looking woman.
http://www.crystalinks.com/juno.html

To think ... It could have been Probey McProbeFace.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby somitomi » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:04 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
orthogon wrote:
rmsgrey wrote: If you're using public transport, then a 5 minute delay setting out can easily be an hour's delay in arriving - while leaving 5 minutes earlier makes no difference.

When taking public transport, I'm not convinced that arrival time is even a monotonic function of departure time.


In most circumstances, it is, but there are plenty of exceptions too.

Based on my experience with public transport, the only thing you can ever be sure about is arriving sometime after departure. Sometime usually being longer than expected.
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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby orthogon » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:15 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:Based on my experience with public transport, the only thing you can ever be sure about is arriving sometime after departure. Sometime usually being longer than expected.

I don't think even that's a certainty. It's not unknown to give up completely on a journey if it's clear that you aren't going to get there within a useful timescale.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby somitomi » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:22 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
somitomi wrote:Based on my experience with public transport, the only thing you can ever be sure about is arriving sometime after departure. Sometime usually being longer than expected.

I don't think even that's a certainty. It's not unknown to give up completely on a journey if it's clear that you aren't going to get there within a useful timescale.

Unless you never go to the intended destination afterwards, you still arrive "sometime after" your original departure.
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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:31 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:
orthogon wrote:
somitomi wrote:Based on my experience with public transport, the only thing you can ever be sure about is arriving sometime after departure. Sometime usually being longer than expected.

I don't think even that's a certainty. It's not unknown to give up completely on a journey if it's clear that you aren't going to get there within a useful timescale.

Unless you never go to the intended destination afterwards, you still arrive "sometime after" your original departure.

But eternal non-arrival1 is always a possibility, until it isn't. Thus I think we can rightly encapsulate this under the concept of the Halting Problem, as particularly befits the given model of transit. ;)

1 We might need to draw upon the Cosmological Constant, at this point.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby orthogon » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:50 pm UTC

I was supposed to go to Seattle in 2010 until Eyjafjallajökull prevented all transatlantic air travel. There is a significant possibility, perhaps 50%, that I will never make it there before I die. (For younger forumites, there comes a point in mid-life where you start realising this kind of thing).
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby ps.02 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:42 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:
orthogon wrote:
somitomi wrote:Based on my experience with public transport, the only thing you can ever be sure about is arriving sometime after departure. Sometime usually being longer than expected.

I don't think even that's a certainty. It's not unknown to give up completely on a journey if it's clear that you aren't going to get there within a useful timescale.

Unless you never go to the intended destination afterwards, you still arrive "sometime after" your original departure.

Yes, well, I think it is entirely fair to divide your transportation life into discrete "trips", where returning home and venturing out another day (or even the same day) counts as another trip. Even though, pedantically, your entire mortal coil can be viewed as a single journey.

So, if you divide your life into distinct "trips" bounded by a stay at home (or elsewhere), it also seems reasonable to say that public transit can fail to bring you to your intended destination, even if you do subsequently end up at that destination on a different trip.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby Flumble » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:45 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:I was supposed to go to Seattle in 2010 until Eyjafjallajökull prevented all transatlantic air travel. There is a significant possibility, perhaps 50%, that I will never make it there before I die. (For younger forumites, there comes a point in mid-life where you start realising this kind of thing).

It makes me wonder: is there a single "middle of your life" point?
Sure, after your death you (well, someone else) can establish the moment that was exactly halfway between your birth and death, even taking relativity into account (since your world line is the same irrespective of an observer's rest frame). But before your death you can only estimate the moment you die. And the more variables/statistics you throw at that estimate (current life expectancy of all humans/in your area/who have the same height/who visited the same islands/with the same eating habits and whatnot), the more that estimate will jump up and down, both with a new situation and with new data.
So if the moment-of-death function is continuous over time, you pass one or more halfway moments in your life, e.g. having a disease at birth that leaves you with less than half your expected life and then surviving it, passing your second halfway point at 45.
But if the function is discontinuous —yearly reports on life expectancy can be seen as instantaneous—, you may jump over that halfway point, possibly multiple times in both directions. That way you might never have a mid-life crisis.

...or maybe that exactly what causes a mid-life crisis.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby orthogon » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:15 pm UTC

Flumble, that is so wonderfully xkcd. Relativity, continuity and the mid -life crisis.

It's definitely relevant that one doesn't know for sure where one is in one's life trajectory, either in pure time terms or in terms of development, decline, achievements and failures. This leads to the conflicting feelings: on one side, fear that the best days might be behind you; on the other side, the hope (perhaps sadly misguided to the eyes of others) that the greatest things are yet to come.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby ucim » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:16 am UTC

Flumble wrote:It makes me wonder: is there a single "middle of your life" point?
What would be the units of measure?

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:54 am UTC

Let's not forget that the perception of time in our lives is not a linear function of chronological time elapsed in our lives. Childhood seems to stretch on forever and adulthood flies past in the blink of an eye. It's something like a logarithmic function, I think. I've tried to figure out how exactly one would calculate the perceived middle of an average-length life, but I keep running into asymptotes and can't quite figure out the math... like if say each new unit of time elapsed is experienced as a fraction of the previous time elapsed, so one year at 32, being 1/32nd of a lifetime, feels like half as long as one year did at 16, being 1/16th of a lifetime, then it seems like one year at less than a year old quickly approaches an infinity of perceived time and the perceived middle of life would be the moment of birth. Working in discrete time fixes that but then how do we pick a quantum of time? Anyone else want to take a jab at this?
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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby orthogon » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:46 am UTC

Well, babyhood and early childhood go past in a bit of a blur too, so perhaps some kind of a sigmoid function would be more appropriate?
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1703: "Juno"

Postby somitomi » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:11 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:Well, babyhood and early childhood go past in a bit of a blur too, so perhaps some kind of a sigmoid function would be more appropriate?

I guess they seem much shorter in hindsight, because you retain only a few memories from that period. At least one of my few childhood memories involves a ten minute wait, which seemed to be an eternity then.
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