1676: "Full-Width Justification"

This forum is for the individual discussion thread that goes with each new comic.

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6066
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby sardia » Wed May 04, 2016 4:21 am UTC

Image
Alt Text Gonna start bugging the Unicode consortium to add snake segment characters that can be combined into an arbitrary-length non-breaking snake.

Eh, I think the newspapers just use hyphens and making extra space between the words.

User avatar
rhomboidal
Posts: 774
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:25 pm UTC
Contact:

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby rhomboidal » Wed May 04, 2016 5:15 am UTC

Yeah, snakes makes no sense. For print, we should use bookworms, and online, electric eels.

User avatar
chridd
Has a vermicelli title
Posts: 808
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:07 am UTC
Location: ...Earth, I guess?
Contact:

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby chridd » Wed May 04, 2016 5:22 am UTC

~ chri d. d. /tʃɹɪ.di.di/ (Phonotactics, schmphonotactics) · she(?)(?(?)(?))(?(?(?))(?))(?) · Forum game scores
mittfh wrote:I wish this post was very quotable...
flicky1991 wrote:In both cases the quote is "I'm being quoted too much!"

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9667
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Gold Beach, OR; 97444

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby addams » Wed May 04, 2016 5:39 am UTC

rhomboidal wrote:Yeah, snakes makes no sense. For print, we should use bookworms, and online, electric eels.

Snakes are a good idea.
Snakes are a good jumping off place.

Bookworms and Electric Eels are an improvement of the concept.
There are places for all three. And; Places for none of the three.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
ysth
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:21 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby ysth » Wed May 04, 2016 5:55 am UTC

Snakes on a Line just isn't as catchy.
A math joke: r = | |csc(θ)|+|sec(θ)| |-| |csc(θ)|-|sec(θ)| |

Brilliand
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:12 am UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Brilliand » Wed May 04, 2016 6:01 am UTC



I've written like that on a small scale before, but that's pretty impressive. I think it's basically Randal's "filler" solution, with some hyphens thrown in... but the filler at least looks natural (not the hyphens so much).

Yu_p
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:00 am UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Yu_p » Wed May 04, 2016 6:16 am UTC

Code: Select all

The easi
est solu
tion is,
to ignor
e hyphen
ation ru
les. And
comma ru
les are,
weird an
yway.

User avatar
orthogon
Posts: 2847
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 7:52 am UTC
Location: The Airy 1830 ellipsoid

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby orthogon » Wed May 04, 2016 6:44 am UTC


Wow. Now do the same thing with a proportional font. (Remember to allow for keming).
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

User avatar
glasnt
Posts: 539
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:18 am UTC
Location: SQUEE!

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby glasnt » Wed May 04, 2016 7:32 am UTC

So Mark Davis is already all over this :)

https://twitter.com/mark_e_davis/status ... 5523873792

(Mark Davis is the Unicode President. He pretty much has the power to make this happen)

User avatar
The Moomin
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:59 am UTC
Location: Yorkshire

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby The Moomin » Wed May 04, 2016 7:48 am UTC

Is there not an issue of the snake eating nearby full-stops, increasing in length, and ruining the justification of the document?
I possibly don't pay enough attention to what's going on.
I help make architect's dreams flesh.

User avatar
StormAngel
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:09 am UTC
Location: Verified
Contact:

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby StormAngel » Wed May 04, 2016 7:55 am UTC

ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

The Moomin wrote:Is there not an issue of the snake eating nearby full-stops, increasing in length, and ruining the justification of the document?

No, I believe you're thinking of worms :wink:
addams wrote:Snakes are a good idea.
Snakes are a good jumping off place..

Not always good...
Image
Oelpr Jnhar, Knight of the Chronological Order
Purveyor of Pepsi, the One True Beverage
"HELLO. MY NAME IS STORMANGEL. YOU OTCOLORED MY NOPICES. PREPARE TO GO CAVE."
yappobiscuits wrote:"I wanna be redundant too! Lemme be redundant! C'monnn!"

My OTTifications on Imgur
Spoiler:
Ch*rp

Image

User avatar
orthogon
Posts: 2847
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 7:52 am UTC
Location: The Airy 1830 ellipsoid

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby orthogon » Wed May 04, 2016 8:27 am UTC

StormAngel wrote:
The Moomin wrote:Is there not an issue of the snake eating nearby full-stops, increasing in length, and ruining the justification of the document?

No, I believe you're thinking of worms

You don't need non-breaking worms: if a worm breaks over a line, a new head and tail are automatically added.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

keldor
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:18 am UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby keldor » Wed May 04, 2016 9:40 am UTC

It would appear that the primary reason for embellishment in medieval writen manuscripts was not, as commonly supposed, decorative, but was indeed a necessary element ensuring full-width justification. Who knew?

emjay
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 10:14 am UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby emjay » Wed May 04, 2016 10:19 am UTC

For generality, won't the Unicode glyphs will need right-left facing heads and tails for not so obscure languages that write left to right?

theModge
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 10:19 am UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby theModge » Wed May 04, 2016 10:27 am UTC

Someone needs to create a snakes pluggin for LaTeX. I spent *ages* working out how to make it calm down with the hyphenation (without using ragged-right).

User avatar
cellocgw
Posts: 1855
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:40 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby cellocgw » Wed May 04, 2016 11:14 am UTC

FRIST with
I hate #*%*&$^@-ing snakes in #*%*&$^@-ing justified text!
https://app.box.com/witthoftresume
Former OTTer
Vote cellocgw for President 2020. #ScienceintheWhiteHouse http://cellocgw.wordpress.com
"The Planck length is 3.81779e-33 picas." -- keithl
" Earth weighs almost exactly π milliJupiters" -- what-if #146, note 7

hamjudo
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:56 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby hamjudo » Wed May 04, 2016 12:17 pm UTC

Do we need language specific snakes? Are Klingon snakes particularly warlike? Do Japanese snakes have to be able to travel vertically and horizontally? Would Arabic script snakes have to go backwards (from my point of view), which is forwards for those folks used to Arabic scripts?

Is there a justification for Chinese dragons? Does that depend on if there is a justification for justification in Chinese character sets?

Can snakes eat emojis? If they do, then they should excrete the digested skeletons when they are done. Does the skeleton of the Poop emoji look like a coprolite?

Did I lose at the questions game as seen on Whose Line? since one of my sentences was not in the form of a question?

TheEngineer
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:40 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby TheEngineer » Wed May 04, 2016 12:41 pm UTC

Note to Programmers
Don't use pythons in python or you will corrupt the indentation level.
You can of course use adders to concatenate text but they play havoc with integers.
In 'C' you should always use the 'C' snake.

User avatar
cellocgw
Posts: 1855
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:40 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby cellocgw » Wed May 04, 2016 1:05 pm UTC

TheEngineer wrote:Note to Programmers
Don't use pythons in python or you will corrupt the indentation level.
You can of course use adders to concatenate text but they play havoc with integers.

Hah. As in the ancient Physics jokes, you can use adders to add, but if you need to multiply, give adders a table of logarithms.
TheEngineer wrote:Note to Programmers
In 'C' you should always use the 'C' snake.

In 'OTT', we use only "B" snakes :mrgreen: :roll:
https://app.box.com/witthoftresume
Former OTTer
Vote cellocgw for President 2020. #ScienceintheWhiteHouse http://cellocgw.wordpress.com
"The Planck length is 3.81779e-33 picas." -- keithl
" Earth weighs almost exactly π milliJupiters" -- what-if #146, note 7

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3082
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Soupspoon » Wed May 04, 2016 1:35 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:As in the ancient Physics jokes, you can use adders to add, but if you need to multiply, give adders a table of logarithms.
That is much shorter, but unfortunately still no neater, than the equivalent joke that I knew since I was in school.

Summary (but usually padded out with patter) as follows. But of course the (vague form of) punchline is known to you all by now already... Still, summary is:
Man seeks exotic pets in pet-store, decides upon snakes. Takes home an (alleged) breeding pair.

Time passes, no breeding. More time passes, more no breeding. Goes back to shop to talk to shopkeeper, in frustration.

"Find a fallen tree," is the advice, "cut some slices out of trunk, and use more wood to add short legs to elevate the slices above ground-level. Place in their vivarium..."

Puzzled, man does this. Snakes like their little decorative features, and pitter-patter slither-slither of tiny snake legs bellies happens soon after.

Man goes back to thank the shopkeeper, and asks how the wooden platforms helped.

"Well," comes the reply, "you bought adders1. And adders need log tables to multiply."
*badoom-tish*

(Add filler to taste.)

1 I know. Adders aren't really exotic. But it's an old joke. Adders aren't exotic snakes, but snakes in general were then considered still quite exotic pets.

richP
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:28 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby richP » Wed May 04, 2016 1:45 pm UTC

I initially read the first line as "stages" not "strategies". I got confused and thought that the list was in reverse-order, since I expected giving up to be the final stage.

Steerpike
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:02 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Steerpike » Wed May 04, 2016 1:47 pm UTC

For LaTeX users I'd recommend the microtype package.

stickler
Posts: 85
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:40 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby stickler » Wed May 04, 2016 2:03 pm UTC

I don't think Full-Width is ever justified.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6062
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby ucim » Wed May 04, 2016 2:06 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
TheEngineer wrote:Note to Programmers
In 'C' you should always use the 'C' snake.

In 'OTT', we use only "B" snakes :mrgreen: :roll:

That's because the C is big, and it would take up too much Timespace.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

User avatar
SpitValve
Not a mod.
Posts: 5126
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:51 am UTC
Location: Lower pork village

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby SpitValve » Wed May 04, 2016 2:08 pm UTC

Snakes are the best option. Those medieval illuminated manuscripts had the right idea.

rmsgrey
Posts: 3311
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed May 04, 2016 2:11 pm UTC

There's one valuable strategy that's missing:

Adjust the margins so the text wraps better.

Also:



That is a bit scary...

User avatar
HES
Posts: 4836
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 7:13 pm UTC
Location: England

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby HES » Wed May 04, 2016 2:18 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Adjust the margins so the text wraps better.

I prefer to shrink the text so that it fits on one line.
He/Him/His Image

ThemePark
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:42 pm UTC
Location: Århus, Denmark

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby ThemePark » Wed May 04, 2016 2:31 pm UTC

There can be no Unicode snakes without Unicode ladders.
I have traveled from 1979 to be a member of the unofficial board Council of Elders. Phear M3

linotype
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 3:01 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby linotype » Wed May 04, 2016 3:05 pm UTC

My Linotype keyboarding manual talks quite a bit about justification. On a Linotype, automatic justification was achieved by adjusting the space between words with variable width spaces that would evenly divide up the space when the line was sent to cast. In situations such as Randall's, the manuals suggest re-setting back a few lines with tighter or looser spacing or gentle re-wording (back when the typesetter had such freedom). Much emphasis was placed on not getting sloppy—using too much or too little white space to achieve a line that fit without any consideration for aesthetics. As
With most textbooks from that era, technical ability is not-so-subtly correlated with moral composition, and subtle accusations are made towards those degenerate individuals that set ugly lines.

The other cool thing is that the range of space that could be made up with a variable space wasn't infinite, so it was also possible to send in a 'tight line' that wouldn't be able to transfer into the vice jaws, or a 'loose line' that wouldn't form a solid moulding surface for the molten typemetal. In both cases the likelihood of having one's left leg and arm sprayed with molten lead was vastly increased, a charmingly named 'squirt'.

User avatar
cellocgw
Posts: 1855
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:40 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby cellocgw » Wed May 04, 2016 3:24 pm UTC

ThemePark wrote:There can be no Unicode snakes without Unicode ladders.


I see what you did there. On this side of the pond, it was changed to 'chutes,' so you'll have to chute your snakes.
https://app.box.com/witthoftresume
Former OTTer
Vote cellocgw for President 2020. #ScienceintheWhiteHouse http://cellocgw.wordpress.com
"The Planck length is 3.81779e-33 picas." -- keithl
" Earth weighs almost exactly π milliJupiters" -- what-if #146, note 7

ThemePark
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:42 pm UTC
Location: Århus, Denmark

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby ThemePark » Wed May 04, 2016 3:37 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
ThemePark wrote:There can be no Unicode snakes without Unicode ladders.


I see what you did there. On this side of the pond, it was changed to 'chutes,' so you'll have to chute your snakes.

And then throw them off this mother-effing plane onto the mother-effing chute? :D
I have traveled from 1979 to be a member of the unofficial board Council of Elders. Phear M3

Eutychus
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:01 am UTC
Location: France

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Eutychus » Wed May 04, 2016 5:05 pm UTC

HES wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Adjust the margins so the text wraps better.

I prefer to shrink the text so that it fits on one line.


Why not widen the margins so all the text fits on one line?
Be very careful about rectilinear assumptions. Raptors could be hiding there - ucim

Eutychus
Posts: 437
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:01 am UTC
Location: France

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Eutychus » Wed May 04, 2016 5:10 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:There's one valuable strategy that's missing:

Adjust the margins so the text wraps better.

Also:



That is a bit scary...


From the introduction (emphasis mine):
The imperativeness of enemies in video games, coupled with the adulation that I
hold for Super Mario 64, serves as the justification behind this document.


Surely that's deliberate.
Be very careful about rectilinear assumptions. Raptors could be hiding there - ucim

User avatar
jc
Posts: 342
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 5:48 pm UTC
Location: Waltham, Massachusetts, USA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way Galaxy
Contact:

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby jc » Wed May 04, 2016 5:34 pm UTC

HES wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Adjust the margins so the text wraps better.

I prefer to shrink the text so that it fits on one line.


Hmm ... I tested a bit, and found several nearby phones where your sentence didn't fit (in portrait mode). My own phone has a slightly larger-than-average screen, so it fit with a bit of space left over. I did find that most of the phone's owners were looking at it with what might be called a "curious grin". They probably don't often see people discussing such important topics online.

I also went back to my laptop (a Macbook), where I did something I often do with forums, resizing the window to be max height but fairly narrow. This can be useful, since (as newspapers have long known), narrow columns of text can be read faster by most good readers. Their eyes just scan vertically, and can see all the text in a single line so there's no left-right eye motion. When I did that, your sentence's last 2 words were on a second line. Of course, this didn't speed up reading your reply at all, since my eyes took in both lines in at a single glance.

This reply might make a better test of the formatting for various window sizes and shapes, as would many of the others here.

My tall, narrow window was with Firefox, which has a curious behavior when you do that: It has a minimum window width, and also a minimum width for formatted text -- and the former is less than the latter. So past a certain width, it refuses to further reformat the text, and the right edge of the text disappears. So you learn to quickly minimize the window's width, then back off until all the text is visible. I've seen this on several computers' screens, and I wonder why they did something so bizarre. (I'd call it "user-hostile", but it's too trivial a problem to qualify as hostility. ;-)

Omegaman
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 1:35 am UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby Omegaman » Wed May 04, 2016 6:22 pm UTC

Or we could just all write in Chinese...

User avatar
cellocgw
Posts: 1855
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:40 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby cellocgw » Wed May 04, 2016 7:40 pm UTC

Omegaman wrote:Or we could just all write in Chinese...


Or in English but using Chinese ideograms :twisted:
https://app.box.com/witthoftresume
Former OTTer
Vote cellocgw for President 2020. #ScienceintheWhiteHouse http://cellocgw.wordpress.com
"The Planck length is 3.81779e-33 picas." -- keithl
" Earth weighs almost exactly π milliJupiters" -- what-if #146, note 7

JimsMaher
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:14 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby JimsMaher » Wed May 04, 2016 8:34 pm UTC

Ye olden illuminations oft made use of extended emdashes and variform squiggly bits.

I should add that unicode already has swung (~) and wavy dashes (〰 U+3030), for instance, if you don't need your snakes to be emojified. Otherwise, things could get complicated just sorting out how to snake.

For example, what happens in cases of double-breaks? If all negative space greater than one 'space' in length is to be consumed by snakes of arbitrary dimension, then what of multiple blank lines, such as the remainder of a page at the end of a chapter? Do we generate something resembling the final state of a game of snake?

Here's an idea: whenever new text is generated after full line-breaks (after the next new sentence is completed) a game of Snake is loaded within the blank area above. The author is forced to play repeatedly until a perfect score is achieved. A screencap of the final state of that game would then fill the space, perhaps being rendered in characters. I suppose the starting position of the game should be restricted to one of the corners, for games of height=1 atleast, lest the hapless sap be made to wait until that would randomly occur. (Why does it feel like I'm troubleshooting someone's hobby coding project now?)

User avatar
BoringUglyPinkEarthPony
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 9:05 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby BoringUglyPinkEarthPony » Wed May 04, 2016 9:14 pm UTC

rhomboidal wrote:Yeah, snakes makes no sense. For print, we should use bookworms, and online, electric eels.


Seeing as most writing is on a plane of some description (be it a sheet of paper, the screen of a monitor, etc), I think a snake is preferable to a bookworm or eel if you want to remain medium-agnostic.

wtanksleyjr
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 9:17 pm UTC

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby wtanksleyjr » Wed May 04, 2016 9:19 pm UTC

I'm surprised nobody's asked which Unicode plane these would go on. Obviously it would have to be on several, in case someone got tired of the snakes on this plane.

User avatar
The Moomin
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:59 am UTC
Location: Yorkshire

Re: 1676: "Full-Width Justification"

Postby The Moomin » Wed May 04, 2016 10:38 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
StormAngel wrote:
The Moomin wrote:Is there not an issue of the snake eating nearby full-stops, increasing in length, and ruining the justification of the document?

No, I believe you're thinking of worms

You don't need non-breaking worms: if a worm breaks over a line, a new head and tail are automatically added.


I find the problem with using worms is that the resultant falling concrete donkeys tend to displace the text erratically.
I possibly don't pay enough attention to what's going on.
I help make architect's dreams flesh.


Return to “Individual XKCD Comic Threads”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Archgeek, Gingercat and 14 guests