1653: "United States Map"

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ebow
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby ebow » Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:21 pm UTC

Wilken wrote:Challenge accepted. The Alaskan islands have been roughly kept the same, but the Hawaiian islands were moved to make them more in line with with the classic shape of Alaska.

I tried to add as img tag, but its being flagged as spam, and I don't have permission to attach, I tried just to link, so here is the tag for imgur.

imgur /SKU0mRt


IMG tag isn't working for me either, let's try a link: blank map plus Alawaii and Hawaska

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby ebow » Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:25 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
jc wrote:
Boilerplate wrote:
da Doctah wrote:Actually, only three out of fifty have borders made entirely out of straight edges.

Actually, no states have straight edges. The straightest edges are still great circles.

If you treat great circles as "straight" then none have all straight edges, because lines of latitude are curved.

One of the fun US-geography trivia questions is to name the state border that is an arc of a circle (without looking it up). There really is one such border segment, though most people aren't aware of it.


Spoiler:
MIssissippi -- Alabama
? (must confess I did look at a map)


??? Isn't that a pair of straight line segments?

My brother used to live pretty close to the arc-border in question. Hint: one of the states is one that nobody really thinks about, unless you count corporations as people.

KarynMcD
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby KarynMcD » Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:30 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
Spoiler:
MIssissippi -- Alabama
? (must confess I did look at a map)

Your map is broken.
Try again.

doglover
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby doglover » Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:34 pm UTC

ebow wrote:
cellocgw wrote:
jc wrote:
Boilerplate wrote:
da Doctah wrote:Actually, only three out of fifty have borders made entirely out of straight edges.

Actually, no states have straight edges. The straightest edges are still great circles.

If you treat great circles as "straight" then none have all straight edges, because lines of latitude are curved.

One of the fun US-geography trivia questions is to name the state border that is an arc of a circle (without looking it up). There really is one such border segment, though most people aren't aware of it.


Spoiler:
MIssissippi -- Alabama
? (must confess I did look at a map)


??? Isn't that a pair of straight line segments?

My brother used to live pretty close to the arc-border in question. Hint: one of the states is one that nobody really thinks about, unless you count corporations as people.


Aha. Found it! Wikipedia Twelve-Mile Circle.

rjwhiteherse
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby rjwhiteherse » Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:56 pm UTC

WTF. Randall you took 1/2 of Michigan away!

ebow
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby ebow » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:13 pm UTC

doglover wrote:Aha. Found it! Wikipedia Twelve-Mile Circle.


Yup. As a bonus, the circle combined with conflicting surveying techniques and claims created a small patch of land called The Wedge, which was disputed among three states for way too long.

I wonder... are there any examples of land disputes that involve each party trying to offload their claim onto the other? For example, Indiana might try to convince Illinois that Gary actually belongs to them, due to some historic surveying error?

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby LittleBunnyFuFu » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:32 pm UTC

PointSpecial wrote:
project2051 wrote:
LittleBunnyFuFu wrote:wow... Being from Michigan this is surprising. The Mackinac bridge just got a lot longer. And I mean A LOT.


I just came here to say that the long drive up into the U.P. just got a whole lot longer.


And, interestingly, the U.P. wasn't replaced. It's all now just one giant(er) Lake Michiperior?


ya I noticed that. I'm guessing Randall had a hard time trying to jigger in a UP replacement. But in doing so ceded lake superior to Canada! I find this un-acceptable.
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby CharonPDX » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:42 pm UTC

ebow wrote:I wonder... are there any examples of land disputes that involve each party trying to offload their claim onto the other? For example, Indiana might try to convince Illinois that Gary actually belongs to them, due to some historic surveying error?


None (that I know of) between US states, but there is Bir Tawil between Egypt and Sudan. It's a similar "both sides claim different borders - both claim the same patch of (desired) land, which means neither claim a smaller patch of (undesired) land."

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby dp2 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:46 pm UTC

jc wrote:
Boilerplate wrote:
da Doctah wrote:Actually, only three out of fifty have borders made entirely out of straight edges.

Actually, no states have straight edges. The straightest edges are still great circles.

If you treat great circles as "straight" then none have all straight edges, because lines of latitude are curved.

One of the fun US-geography trivia questions is to name the state border that is an arc of a circle (without looking it up). There really is one such border segment, though most people aren't aware of it.

Any of the straight ones, when viewed as the intersection of a plane and the surface of the earth.

(yes, yes, that assumes a perfectly spherical earth).

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby dp2 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:51 pm UTC

project2051 wrote:
LittleBunnyFuFu wrote:wow... Being from Michigan this is surprising. The Mackinac bridge just got a lot longer. And I mean A LOT.


I just came here to say that the long drive up into the U.P. just got a whole lot longer.

"If you seek a pleasant peninsula, I guess you're stuck going to the Thumb area now".

solune
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby solune » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:56 pm UTC

ebow wrote:I wonder... are there any examples of land disputes that involve each party trying to offload their claim onto the other?


There is indeed, the Hala'ib Triangle.
Egypt believes they possess territory A and sudan has territory B.
Sudan believes they possess territory A and Egypt has territory B.

As either is really interested in territory A, they both claim not to possess territory B.

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby dp2 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:03 pm UTC

ebow wrote:I wonder... are there any examples of land disputes that involve each party trying to offload their claim onto the other? For example, Indiana might try to convince Illinois that Gary actually belongs to them, due to some historic surveying error?

Michigan and Ohio both wanted the Toledo Strip, but Michigan ultimately came out the winner.

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby ps.02 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:41 pm UTC

ebow wrote:
doglover wrote:Aha. Found it! Wikipedia Twelve-Mile Circle.


Yup. As a bonus, the circle combined with conflicting surveying techniques and claims created a small patch of land called The Wedge, which was disputed among three states for way too long.

And to think I learned about this surveying oddity in the same book (Pynchon's Mason & Dixon) where I learned about other 18th century wonders like the sentient robotic duck and the strangely familiar hand signal used by a secret society to mean "Live long and prosper." I think my takeaway is "Truth is not stranger than fiction, but sometimes it can hold its own."

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:06 pm UTC

project2051 wrote:I just came here to say that the long drive up into the U.P. just got a whole lot longer.

This sounds like a job for... Elon Musk!!!

(I'm thinking more of the Hyperloop, although his recent ability to reliably hit (if not soft-land on) a remote ocean barge with an 'expended' first stage of a rocket has got to mean something...)

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby Justin Lardinois » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:13 pm UTC

I'm surprised no one in this thread has brought up the Ben Carson map:

Image

I'm not sure how someone does that on accident. Maybe Ben Carson's campaign was so understaffed that they started hiring people who didn't actually support him. (That would explain a lot, actually.)

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:25 pm UTC

Justin Lardinois wrote:I'm not sure how someone does that on accident.

Similar things have been done elsewhere, without any apparent bias behind them.

Spot the problem:
Image
NB: the URL of that image gives the biggest clue...

(I think they probably took a borders dataset and melded it into a whole, missing out what may well have been defined as a 'subregion'.)

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:22 pm UTC

Now I really want to produce a jigsaw puzzle with two solutions.
Then give it to people to solve without letting them know it has two solutions.
Then wait for them to solve it.
Then show them the other solution and act like they're an epic level idiot.
pduthie wrote:you try that nonsense with our lovely ridiculous UK counties and see how far you get.
Are the internal borders infinitely long to, or is that just the coast?
rjwhiteherse wrote:WTF. Randall you took 1/2 of Michigan away!
Knowing Randal, he probably gave it to the Dutch.
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby passion4film12 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:23 pm UTC

This is instantly one of my favorite xkcd comics EVER. The effort! The coolness! The creativity! I need a poster of this!

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Soupspoon
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:43 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:
pduthie wrote:you try that nonsense with our lovely ridiculous UK counties and see how far you get.
Are the internal borders infinitely long to, or is that just the coast?

Well, given how many mystical gateways to the netherworld, we have, most counties technically have infinite internal area, regardless of perimeter.



More seriously, numerous borders are defined by natural features like rivers (such as the Tamar, forming much of the Cornish border with its sole landward neighbour, Devon) or ridges... at least historically. And even modern ones follow features (including roads!) that aren't exactly straight, although (locally) smooth curves wouldn't be anything more than of finite length. I suppose it depends on whether you drill down to the midpoint of watercourses as defined increasingly corrugated by the machinations of every stone or sandy spit jutting out from the bank into the stream, from either side, or exactly where it is deemed that road (or road/river/etc) junctions meet.

See the scrolling 'illustrative' picture on this page for many examples of boundaries at various levels of administration. Boundaries that I've (previously) been working with have been defined by polylines (thus finite, even with bezier segments along some parts), but I think we could argue that these remain as approximations, especially when the historical distinction of the border relies upon less precise/permanent geographic features than the officialdom that pretends to maintain the definition.
Last edited by Soupspoon on Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:46 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby ChakatFirepaw » Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:45 pm UTC

brakos82 wrote:Louisiana - New Orleans is still French, but now it's because they're bordering Quebec. Draw.


I disagree: It pretty much undoes the Acadian expulsion and has the Cajuns return to where the British kicked them out of, so I'd put that in the win column.

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby JohnTheWysard » Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:49 pm UTC

jc wrote:One of the fun US-geography trivia questions is to name the state border that is an arc of a circle (without looking it up). There really is one such border segment, though most people aren't aware of it.


Spoiler:
Northern border of Delaware. And I didn't look it up. :lol:

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby LittleBunnyFuFu » Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:51 pm UTC

rjwhiteherse wrote:WTF. Randall you took 1/2 of Michigan away!


not quite, he moved it very far away, the UP is over near where New Jersey/Pennsylvania use to be-ish. MI is now the only state to have both an Atlantic and Pacific coast. Which seems kinda fitting for Michigan.
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JohnTheWysard
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby JohnTheWysard » Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:51 pm UTC

Having lived in both Oklahoma and Idaho, I'm delighted to see that the panhandle didn't move - just swapped states!

Barstro
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby Barstro » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:22 pm UTC

Does Wyoming still mean "no state here"?

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Thanks, cancer.

Postby Eternal Density » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:39 pm UTC

Justin Lardinois wrote:I'm surprised no one in this thread has brought up the Ben Carson map:

Image

I'm not sure how someone does that on accident. Maybe Ben Carson's campaign was so understaffed that they started hiring people who didn't actually support him. (That would explain a lot, actually.)

Thanks to that I ended up at http://www.vox.com/2015/2/18/8056325/bad-maps
This caused me a very painful amount of laughter.
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby xtifr » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:30 pm UTC

Canard wrote:Looks like I've got it figured differently to quite a lot of people on here - I assumed the geographical features of the US would remain the same, it was just a case of the borders being changed.

That thought crossed my mind, but it's clearly not the case. Washington state still has the Puget Sound, for example, which has no geographically equivalent lake in its new location. Also, the San Francisco peninsula now has a large island chain. (And the SF bay has become much larger.) And the Florida keys...

CharonPDX wrote:
cellocgw wrote:And perhaps the most important, :twisted: , the net increase or decrease in required travel distance to get to a state w/ legal marijuana sales.

Well, on the "most important" - for my state, net zero. And splitting up Oregon and Washington, putting them both in the middle, causes a net decrease for almost all locations. Colorado didn't move very far, either. So, really, California, Idaho, and Nevada are the three "big losers" on that front.

Actually, California can't lose, since it has legal marijuana sales. Not recreational, but still. And anyway, the bar for getting medicinal marijuana is notoriously low.
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby Mikeski » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:55 pm UTC

Boilerplate wrote:Most distorted, least recognizable state: Minnesota.

It's a representation of our politics. Sanders and Rubio in the primaries (er, caucuses)? Ventura? Franken?
Last edited by Mikeski on Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:01 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby Omegaman » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:00 am UTC

ps.02 wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:California still partially overlaps its old position. Like all of SoCal is still Cal, just... WesCal now?

Yeah it does overlap, but its CG moved further than several of the others. Speaking of which, would you call the middle of your state MezCal?

The middle of the state is called "NorCal". Everything North of San Francisco is generally called "Baja Oregon".

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:20 am UTC

Wait. That's not how the map of the US usually looks?

CharonPDX
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby CharonPDX » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:00 am UTC

Omegaman wrote:
ps.02 wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:California still partially overlaps its old position. Like all of SoCal is still Cal, just... WesCal now?

Yeah it does overlap, but its CG moved further than several of the others. Speaking of which, would you call the middle of your state MezCal?

The middle of the state is called "NorCal". Everything North of San Francisco is generally called "Baja Oregon".


As an Oregonian, I absolutely love that name. If I recall correctly, it came from a debate between a supporter and an opponent of splitting California in to two states.

S: And what do you suppose you'll call your new Northern state? We won't go for "Northern California" and "Southern California."
N: We were thinking of going with "Greater California."
S: Why don't you just tell it like it is and call yourselves "Baja Oregon?"

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby RogueCynic » Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:06 am UTC

I do international shipping. If you want to do a world map Randall, Toronto is in the Central African Republic, New Taipei City is in either Australia or Andorra, and Italy is part of Afghanistan.
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby Farabor » Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:25 am UTC

Is it wrong that the first thing I thought of was to search for fixed points, before I realized that the translation function wasn't continuous and therefore Brouwer's FIxed Point theorem doesn't apply?

On the "land noone wants", in slightly fictional lands, there was the reason for Pennsic War, fought between the SCA kingdoms of the East and Middle because neither wanted Pittsburgh and Cleveland....

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Re: Thanks, cancer.

Postby orthogon » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:50 am UTC

Eternal Density wrote:This caused me a very painful amount of laughter.

Me too. And they say that laughter is the best medicine, so... (Actually scientific medicine proven in repeated randomized double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials is the best medicine, but laughter can't do any harm).
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: Thanks, cancer.

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:21 am UTC

orthogon wrote:(...but laughter can't do any harm).
Unless you have a broken rib?

Or are trying to hide from the psycho clown!

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby LockeZ » Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:38 am UTC

rjwhiteherse wrote:WTF. Randall you took 1/2 of Michigan away!

No, one half of Michigan is on the west coast where California should be. The other half is on the east coast, between Arkansas and Maine.


Someone should spend a day editing the Animaniacs song of Wakko naming all the US states to use this map.

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby orthogon » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:43 pm UTC

CharonPDX wrote:As an Oregonian, I absolutely love that name. If I recall correctly, it came from a debate between a supporter and an opponent of splitting California in to two states.

S: And what do you suppose you'll call your new Northern state? We won't go for "Northern California" and "Southern California."
N: We were thinking of going with "Greater California."
S: Why don't you just tell it like it is and call yourselves "Baja Oregon?"


Shouldn't it be Bajo Oregon, (by analogy with Aragón, or the Portuguese and presumably also Spanish Óregon, which are masculine)?

The whole naming of Californias is quite complicated as it is. The original California is divided into California (and bits of some other US states) and Baja California, and then Baja California itself comprises two states: Baja California and Baja California Sur. There's self-similarity of naming all the way down...
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby Trickster » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:26 pm UTC

I just had an incredibly detailed dream where I was flying over this map and could see all the cracks between the states where they didn't match up perfectly.

That is all.

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby mathmannix » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:24 pm UTC

Boilerplate wrote:
da Doctah wrote:Actually, only three out of fifty have borders made entirely out of straight edges.


Actually, no states have straight edges. The straightest edges are still great circles.


OK, so here's my trivia question for the day: What state has the shortest border length?

Going with the above-alluded-to, so-called "Coastline Paradox" (see: Wikipedia Cracked (#2)), clearly 47 out of 50 states have infinitely long borders when measured precisely. They all follow, at least for part of their borders, geographical features such as rivers, mountain ranges, or coastlines. Only three states (Colorado, Wyoming, and Utah) have borders which are defined entirely by ... well, a combination of straight lines and arcs, so let's say they're "mathematically defined." Several other states are mostly mathematically defined, but have at least some irregular section. (The most extreme of these is New Mexico[1].)

Even the three states don't have as precise borders as they would appear to at first glance. Zoom in on Google Maps (or your favorite alternative mapping website), and you can see how the Utah-Wyoming border and the Utah-Colorado border are not completely straight lines. And this is not a software error in Google Maps; it is an error that was made when the states were surveyed.[2] However, the borders do appear to still be a collection of straight lines (and actually not great circles, except in the sense of being over the surface of the curvature of the earth; east-west lines just happen to be a collection of straight lines that approximate a curve.) Anyway, Colorado and Wyoming are not truly rectangles (or even trapezoids), and Utah is not truly an irregular hexagon, but rather they are polynomials of a large, but finite, number of sides.

However, to get a rather rough estimate of their lengths, I can use a ruler on my monitor with Google Maps up, and measure their sides assuming them to be the straight lines that they almost are. Given a certain resolution and consistent zoom-level on Google Maps (which tells me in the lower-right corner that 100 miles is about 23/32 of an inch), I measure Utah to have a total border length of about 7 14/16 inches, or about 565 miles (to the nearest 5 miles); Colorado has a total border length of 8 9/16 inches, or about 615 miles, and Wyoming has a total border length of 8 12/16 inches, or about 630 miles. And really the difference between Colorado's and Wyoming's is probably insignifigant with measurement error, but clearly Utah is the state with the shortest total border length. I feel confident enough in my measurements to say it is the only state with less than 600 miles (or less than 950 km for those of you who prefer un-American measurements) of border.

As for other countries in the world, the only one I can find that seems to have all mathematically-defined borders is Vatican City. Of course, you won't really surprise anyone by telling them that the smallest country in the world has the shortest border. (It has straight lines and a few curves, including what looks like about two thirds of an ellipse, but it appears to be completely bounded by a definitely measureable wall.) All other landlocked countries, including San Marino and Andorra, have a combination of rivers and mountain range borders along with (in some cases) a few straight line borders. And obviously any country with a coastline has an infinite border.

Footnotes spoilered
Spoiler:
[1] New Mexico only follows an irregular border, the Rio Grande River[3] for a tiny section of its border. Using the ruler-on-monitor technique, New Mexico's straight-line borders total around 1500 miles, and the two endpoints of its irregular border are, in a straight line, about 16 miles apart. So, measured in this way, barely one percent of New Mexico's border is infinite, but of course this makes the whole total infinite!

[2] Almost all of the states which have straight-line borders, as well as most of the others (with river or mountain-range borders) have these type of surveying errors, as well as borders that were compromised on after disagreements between two or more states, like the Toledo War. (Hawaii is the only well-defined state!) I highly recommend the book How the States Got Their Shapes (of which I own a copy), as well as its television documentary adaptation on the History Channel. I learned from the documentary that it's really a marvel how good the boundaries are, given that they were mostly measured by surveyors walking with 66-foot lengths of chain!

[3] - yes, this is redudant by translation
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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby orthogon » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:40 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:[...]about 7 14/16 inches[...]

Ooh, we missed this when we had the regular revival of the whole decimal/metric/SI vs Imperial/Customary debate a couple of weeks back. Fractions of an inch are usually expressed in the form x/2N; in other words as terminating binary fractions. This can lead to conflict in the geeky mind: decimal is nice and easy for meatbags, but binary is the most beautiful and elegant base of all. And meatbags can get used to it too: any diesel mechanic can tell you in a heartbeat that the next spanner(=wrench) up after a three-eighths is a seven-sixteenths.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1653: "United States Map"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:11 pm UTC

CharonPDX wrote:S: And what do you suppose you'll call your new Northern state? We won't go for "Northern California" and "Southern California."
N: We were thinking of going with "Greater California."
S: Why don't you just tell it like it is and call yourselves "Baja Oregon?"
For a long time, New Yorkers have thought that new Jersey should be renamed Axillary York.
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