1580: "Travel Ghost"

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1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby The Moomin » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:01 pm UTC

Image
alt text: And a different ghost has replaced me in the bedroom.

This made me think of this story

Would all the ghosts end up in traffic jams behind each other? Travel the same route enough times and the ghosts won't be able to move for all the other ghosts in the way.
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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby PedroTibo » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:03 pm UTC

But wouldn't the ghost in the bedroom come faster? :wink:

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Whizbang » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:05 pm UTC

Survival of the fastest.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby orthogon » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:32 pm UTC

When I got to the second panel, I thought it was going to be some kind of Quantum Electrodynamics reference, where it sends you along all of the paths simultaneously. The wavefunction will be strongest along the fastest route. It reminds me of Fenynman's analogy of a photon hitting a change of refractive index being like a guy on the beach running to rescue a drowning girl in the sea. (Permute genders to taste).

There should also be a ghost travelling your actual route, so you can see how useless its real-time data is.

My Satnav creeps me out by how accurately it predicts my arrival time - within a minute or two per hour - and that doesn't even have real-time traffic data.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby rjl » Mon Sep 21, 2015 1:36 pm UTC

This appears to be a trip from San Francisco to Cleveland, Ohio (or possibly Buffalo, NY). Made this more than once.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Von_Cheam » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:10 pm UTC

"Bike ghost". Makes me think of ghost bikes*. If you're unfamiliar with that rather morbid phenomenon: when a cyclist gets killed by a car, members of the cycling community often spray the bike white (or if the bike is still serviceable, procure instead a suitably disposable bicycle) and lock it up at the site where the tragedy occurred, as a memorial/warning/whatever. Awfully depressing to see about one's city, of course, but nevertheless make me feel slightly good to know that the community still cares, etc..

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_bike

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby sotanaht » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:19 pm UTC

The top strip actually makes for a pretty decent idea as far as apps go. The one variable it can't predict properly though is your own driving style. How much do you speed? Where do you decide between stopping for a yellow or pushing to get through before it turns red? How much of an opening do you wait for when making a turn/crossing with no light? Ultimately even if they sent the ghost on the same route with perfect realtime data the prediction wouldn't be all that accurate unless the program learned your driving habits better than you know them yourself.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Whizbang » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:31 pm UTC

sotanaht wrote:The top strip actually makes for a pretty decent idea as far as apps go. The one variable it can't predict properly though is your own driving style. How much do you speed? Where do you decide between stopping for a yellow or pushing to get through before it turns red? How much of an opening do you wait for when making a turn/crossing with no light? Ultimately even if they sent the ghost on the same route with perfect realtime data the prediction wouldn't be all that accurate unless the program learned your driving habits better than you know them yourself.


Have you used a GPS lately? Those things are pretty accurate. They make assumptions about things like pushing red lights and the like. Unless you are on the outside edges of the bell-curve, or there are other factors like traffic accidents or re-routes due to construction, the guess will be within a handful of minutes.

Also, pushing red lights, weaving through traffic, and cutting off other drivers doesn't significantly improve your arrival time[citation needed]. Who else has seen some jerk recklessly weave through the lanes, only to end up at the same stop lights as you the entire way?

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby orthogon » Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:42 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:
sotanaht wrote:The top strip actually makes for a pretty decent idea as far as apps go. The one variable it can't predict properly though is your own driving style. How much do you speed? Where do you decide between stopping for a yellow or pushing to get through before it turns red? How much of an opening do you wait for when making a turn/crossing with no light? Ultimately even if they sent the ghost on the same route with perfect realtime data the prediction wouldn't be all that accurate unless the program learned your driving habits better than you know them yourself.


Have you used a GPS lately? Those things are pretty accurate. They make assumptions about things like pushing red lights and the like. Unless you are on the outside edges of the bell-curve, or there are other factors like traffic accidents or re-routes due to construction, the guess will be within a handful of minutes.

Also, pushing red lights, weaving through traffic, and cutting off other drivers doesn't significantly improve your arrival time[citation needed]. Who else has seen some jerk recklessly weave through the lanes, only to end up at the same stop lights as you the entire way?

As I said above, my GPS is disturbingly accurate in its predictions, and doesn't have a huge amount of data to go on as I don't have my own car and only drive a few hundred miles a year. Recently I took it to Asturias in northern Spain: I was aware that I was doing the speed limit on motorways, which seemed to be somewhat faster than average, whilst on single carriageway mountain roads I was very tentative due to being out of practice, having the steering wheel on the other side to normal, and being unsure of exactly where the far wing of the car was (and being exposed to an excess of 700 Euro), and yet I'd always arrive within a couple of minutes of the prediction. There must be something in your unsourced suggestion: some way in which different driving styles average out or simply vary how long it is before you meet the back of the same queue you were always going to be in.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby cellocgw » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:15 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:When I got to the second panel, I thought it was going to be some kind of Quantum Electrodynamics reference, where it sends you along all of the paths simultaneously. The wavefunction will be strongest along the fastest route.

Yeah, I was definitely thinking a full set of Feynman diagrams there.

orthogon wrote:There should also be a ghost travelling your actual route, so you can see how useless its real-time data is.


Better yet: send ghosts along all routes, then once you've found out which one was fastest, just hop into your time machine and leave when the ghosts did. :twisted:
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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby JeromeWest » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:36 pm UTC

Hopefully the bedroom ghost takes a little longer than the original to "arrive".

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby nickthefool » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:39 pm UTC

sotanaht wrote:The top strip actually makes for a pretty decent idea as far as apps go.


I was thinking this. Is it a thing? It should be.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:40 pm UTC

JeromeWest wrote:Hopefully the bedroom ghost takes a little longer than the original to "arrive".


I think that's the joke...

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby sotanaht » Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:41 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:
sotanaht wrote:The top strip actually makes for a pretty decent idea as far as apps go. The one variable it can't predict properly though is your own driving style. How much do you speed? Where do you decide between stopping for a yellow or pushing to get through before it turns red? How much of an opening do you wait for when making a turn/crossing with no light? Ultimately even if they sent the ghost on the same route with perfect realtime data the prediction wouldn't be all that accurate unless the program learned your driving habits better than you know them yourself.


Have you used a GPS lately? Those things are pretty accurate. They make assumptions about things like pushing red lights and the like. Unless you are on the outside edges of the bell-curve, or there are other factors like traffic accidents or re-routes due to construction, the guess will be within a handful of minutes.

Also, pushing red lights, weaving through traffic, and cutting off other drivers doesn't significantly improve your arrival time[citation needed]. Who else has seen some jerk recklessly weave through the lanes, only to end up at the same stop lights as you the entire way?


Yes, and they don't tend to be all that accurate for me. They adjust the ETA as you travel, so they always show the right arrival time when you get there, but it's always about 10-20% off from the original estimate.

Subtle differences DO significantly impact your arrival time some of the time. They might not make much difference in the day-to-day average, but if you are just 2 seconds too slow on the wrong day you can miss a stop light and then get stuck behind every single stoplight from then on, ultimately adding 5-10 minutes onto a normally 25 minute trip.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby operagost » Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:55 pm UTC

I need to have the ghost image projected onto my HUD so I can chase it like in Mario Kart.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Zinho » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:28 pm UTC

Reminds me of a manga I read a while back, where the protagonist develops the ability similar to the app described by the comic. She learns how to choose between a multiverse worth of alternative realities, see how her decisions affect the world, then discard the experiences with unfavorable outcomes (she dies a lot). It's called "Murasakiiro No Qualia", or "The Qualia of Purple".

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Echo244 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:46 pm UTC

operagost wrote:I need to have the ghost image projected onto my HUD so I can chase it like in Mario Kart.


Why can't you blue shell your alternate selves?
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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby rhomboidal » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:56 pm UTC

So long as my ghost selves can earn ghost miles for future ghost trips, I don't really mind.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby pernishus » Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:16 pm UTC

Is the title text a reference to Michael Keaton's Multiplicity? I'm pretty sure one of the clones made it into the bedroom at least once.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Whizbang » Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:19 pm UTC

She touched my pepe, Steve!

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby RAGBRAIvet » Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:21 pm UTC

Von_Cheam wrote:"Bike ghost". Makes me think of ghost bikes*. If you're unfamiliar with that rather morbid phenomenon: when a cyclist gets killed by a car, members of the cycling community often spray the bike white (or if the bike is still serviceable, procure instead a suitably disposable bicycle) and lock it up at the site where the tragedy occurred, as a memorial/warning/whatever. Awfully depressing to see about one's city, of course, but nevertheless make me feel slightly good to know that the community still cares, etc..

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_bike

This is no worse than the wooden crosses and floral tributes that often appear at the sites of traffic fatalities ... and are left in place until they set a new standard for the term 'bedraggled', and is necessary in that it draws attention to the fact that there are vulnerable road users out there — not just bicyclists, but moped riders, motorcyclists, and pedestrians as well — that self-absorbed or self-important motorists need to be watching out for.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Copper Bezel » Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:31 pm UTC

If it was "no worse" than those things, it wouldn't be trying to compete with them. I think the next stage is to just go ahead and leave the cyclist's corpse to rot in place.
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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Wilhelm » Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:36 pm UTC

This would actually be fantastically useful.

I always wonder about the various public transportation/bike routes I could take as opposed to my routine ones, but I don't generally deviate from routine for fear of lateness. I could send ghost-me out on twenty simulated trips to the movie theater or campus on a weekend when I'm otherwise occupied, and end up with the best-performing route.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Flumble » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:38 pm UTC

I'd very much like a fuzzy planner, so you can choose whether to walk to the next bus stop –to save money and go for a walk on a sunny day and waste less time waiting for a transfer– or take the bus –to avoid the rain or because you're lazy– or go by bike or by car –so you can get home quickly if you return late, after the last bus has departed.
Here in the Netherlands we have a great integrated public transport planner, but it doesn't allow fuzzy planning, nor any alternative plans at all, except for extra transfer time and manually adding a "via" location. And AFAIK google maps doesn't improve on this.


Zinho wrote:Reminds me of a manga I read a while back, where the protagonist develops the ability similar to the app described by the comic. She learns how to choose between a multiverse worth of alternative realities, see how her decisions affect the world, then discard the experiences with unfavorable outcomes (she dies a lot). It's called "Murasakiiro No Qualia", or "The Qualia of Purple".

This is also the basis for the film Mr. Nobody.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Muswell » Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:56 pm UTC

I don't drive and therefore don't have a satnav or similar, but if I make a journey by Tube and/or bus in London and don't beat the time given on Transport for London's Journey Planner I feel like a failure for the rest of the day.

Journey Planner's scarily good for a lot of people, but assumes you don't know the shortcuts through major Tube stations (helpful hint for tourists - 9 times out of 10, "No Entry" in the lower levels of a Tube station means "Shortcut"; the other 1 time in 10 you slip through the cracks into London Below and have to defeat Benedict Cumberbatch to get back to your normal life).

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Coyoty » Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:36 pm UTC

When you want to stray
Through your neighborhood
Who you gonna call?
Bus Ghosters!

And they all look like Nicolas Cage.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby da Doctah » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:14 pm UTC

I once performed a similar gedankenexperiment in which I left home for work at different times. By delaying my departure, I could often make better time because traffic along the way had thinned out from the rush-hour peak.

Somehow, I discovered that there were times when I could save twenty minutes of travel time by leaving just ten minutes later. The implication is that if I sent two versions of myself out at the two times, there would be some point along the way where the later "ghost" would overtake and pass the earlier one. Never did come up with an explanation for that result.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby jc » Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:46 pm UTC

nickthefool wrote:
sotanaht wrote:The top strip actually makes for a pretty decent idea as far as apps go.

I was thinking this. Is it a thing? It should be.


It's similar to what google maps has been doing for a while. When you ask for a route between two points, it calculates 2 or 3 routes, and tells you the time of each under current traffic conditions. But it's not nearly as useful as it could be. For example, if you want the time on a different rount (perhaps because you know a shortcut around a traffic jam), you can drag one of the routes to use the shortcut. But this causes it to abndon all the other routes. You can't get N of them showing at the same time, only one of your choice or the short list that they pick for you.

(Of course, I could be wrong, but if so, the means of making it work aren't at all obvious. I've experimented a bit -- and even googled it -- but nothing useful shows up.)

Also, there's no "recalculate" button that I can find, so if it's early in rush hour, it often doesn't pick up on changes in times until it decides on its own to do a recalculation. I've demoed this by bringing up google maps in two browsers during heavy-traffic times, asking one for a route, waiting a couple of minutes, and then asking the other for the same route. They typically end up showing different times, and sometimes different suggested routes. The usual "refresh" key combinations seem to have no effect. After a while, the first one will suddenly show new times (and maybe different alternate routes), while the second will continue with its old times for a while.

Maybe if the folks at google maps read this comic, they'll get some ideas for making their tool more useful. ;-)

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Quercus » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:04 am UTC

da Doctah wrote:Somehow, I discovered that there were times when I could save twenty minutes of travel time by leaving just ten minutes later. The implication is that if I sent two versions of myself out at the two times, there would be some point along the way where the later "ghost" would overtake and pass the earlier one. Never did come up with an explanation for that result.

The only thing I can think of (except if you have some very weird traffic management schemes where you live), is that the days when that happened were quick/light traffic days anyway, so for that particular day you only saved 10 minutes, not 20.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby RogueCynic » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:17 am UTC

Von_Cheam wrote:"Bike ghost". Makes me think of ghost bikes*. If you're unfamiliar with that rather morbid phenomenon: when a cyclist gets killed by a car, members of the cycling community often spray the bike white (or if the bike is still serviceable, procure instead a suitably disposable bicycle) and lock it up at the site where the tragedy occurred, as a memorial/warning/whatever. Awfully depressing to see about one's city, of course, but nevertheless make me feel slightly good to know that the community still cares, etc..

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_bike
I think another form of"ghost bikes" is the biker's friends rig a bike to drive without a rider.

Whizbang wrote:
sotanaht wrote:The top strip actually makes for a pretty decent idea as far as apps go. The one variable it can't predict properly though is your own driving style. How much do you speed? Where do you decide between stopping for a yellow or pushing to get through before it turns red? How much of an opening do you wait for when making a turn/crossing with no light? Ultimately even if they sent the ghost on the same route with perfect realtime data the prediction wouldn't be all that accurate unless the program learned your driving habits better than you know them yourself.


Have you used a GPS lately? Those things are pretty accurate. They make assumptions about things like pushing red lights and the like. Unless you are on the outside edges of the bell-curve, or there are other factors like traffic accidents or re-routes due to construction, the guess will be within a handful of minutes.

Also, pushing red lights, weaving through traffic, and cutting off other drivers doesn't significantly improve your arrival time[citation needed]. Who else has seen some jerk recklessly weave through the lanes, only to end up at the same stop lights as you the entire way?
I once used mapquest(I think) to plan a route. It told me to go the wrong way down what I knew was a one way street. Do gps systems take them into account?

rjl wrote:This appears to be a trip from San Francisco to Cleveland, Ohio (or possibly Buffalo, NY). Made this more than once.
Why would anyone want to go to Cleveland? Or Buffalo?
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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby jc » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:35 am UTC

RogueCynic wrote:I once used mapquest(I think) to plan a route. It told me to go the wrong way down what I knew was a one way street. Do gps systems take them into account?


It depends on whether the source of that section of the map included the information. All the map sites get part of their data from local street departments, and sometimes the information is a bit sketchy. The biggest practical problem is the common lack of information about traffic lights. One/two-way info is usually included, but not always. Hereabouts (Boston), I was recently directed by google maps to take a particular local street (in Newton) north to a major local highway (Rte 9) and turn left. I was dubious, but decided to try the route, and when I got there, I found that I was right: The left turn was blocked by the barrier down the middle of the highway. The barrier was clearly old, made of concrete posts with steel rails that were so well rusted that they'd obviously been there since long before google existed. But the local highway maps didn't include information about the barrier, just that there was an intersection, so the code couldn't tell that a left turn wasn't possible.

This sort of problem is much of why google decided to develop their own mapping operation, to remap the entire street system. Many local departments can't be bothered (or don't have the funding) to record all the information needed to correctly inform users of such details. Routing software can usually only guess at things like speed limits. And so on. The software can't know about things that aren't in its database. This puts serious limits on how accurate the routing code can actually be. All mapping software has such problems, and will until the details are available and in their databases.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby speising » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:21 pm UTC

If all cars routinely reported telemetry, this data could be extracted in no time. If no one ever turns left at an intersection, chances are good that it isn't possible for whatever reason.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Keyman » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:10 pm UTC

This...
Whizbang wrote:Also, pushing red lights, weaving through traffic, and cutting off other drivers doesn't significantly improve your arrival time[citation needed]. Who else has seen some jerk recklessly weave through the lanes, only to end up at the same stop lights as you the entire way?

I always make sure to wave at them when I pull along side. Sometimes they wave back, but not with as many fingers.
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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby YellowYeti » Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:34 pm UTC

Zinho wrote:Reminds me of a manga I read a while back, where the protagonist develops the ability similar to the app described by the comic. She learns how to choose between a multiverse worth of alternative realities, see how her decisions affect the world, then discard the experiences with unfavorable outcomes (she dies a lot). It's called "Murasakiiro No Qualia", or "The Qualia of Purple".


And a 'Doctor Who' Audio adventure ( Human Resources ):

A quantum crystalliser is a Time Lord device that can splinter the timelines over a small area and let different possibilities play out until it gets one that its programmer likes. It can be set to recognise certain outcomes as positive and others as negative, and then it fixes the favoured timeline and lets the others die off (although the more unlikely the outcome, the harder it has to work to make it happen).

http://www.tetrap.com/drwho/disccon/8/humanresources.html

Where said device is used to destroy an enemy attack force in a series of extremely unlikely coincidences.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Unclevertitle » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:40 pm UTC

Echo244 wrote:
operagost wrote:I need to have the ghost image projected onto my HUD so I can chase it like in Mario Kart.


Why can't you blue shell your alternate selves?


Damn ethereal bastards. Always so smug.

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby sfmans » Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:30 am UTC

RogueCynic wrote:
rjl wrote:This appears to be a trip from San Francisco to Cleveland, Ohio (or possibly Buffalo, NY). Made this more than once.
Why would anyone want to go to Cleveland? Or Buffalo?


Road trips for the 49ers to play the Browns or the Bills?

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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby gimmespamnow » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:24 pm UTC

jc wrote:
RogueCynic wrote:I once used mapquest(I think) to plan a route. It told me to go the wrong way down what I knew was a one way street. Do gps systems take them into account?


It depends on whether the source of that section of the map included the information. All the map sites get part of their data from local street departments, and sometimes the information is a bit sketchy. The biggest practical problem is the common lack of information about traffic lights. One/two-way info is usually included, but not always. Hereabouts (Boston), I was recently directed by google maps to take a particular local street (in Newton) north to a major local highway (Rte 9) and turn left. I was dubious, but decided to try the route, and when I got there, I found that I was right: The left turn was blocked by the barrier down the middle of the highway. The barrier was clearly old, made of concrete posts with steel rails that were so well rusted that they'd obviously been there since long before google existed. But the local highway maps didn't include information about the barrier, just that there was an intersection, so the code couldn't tell that a left turn wasn't possible.

This sort of problem is much of why google decided to develop their own mapping operation, to remap the entire street system. Many local departments can't be bothered (or don't have the funding) to record all the information needed to correctly inform users of such details. Routing software can usually only guess at things like speed limits. And so on. The software can't know about things that aren't in its database. This puts serious limits on how accurate the routing code can actually be. All mapping software has such problems, and will until the details are available and in their databases.


It isn't so much that they don't have the "money", but that getting that data into a digital form that works for Google isn't always in their interests. I mean, it isn't that they are opposed to doing it, but spending a bunch of taxpayer money to convert the data from the paper copies in the basement into electronic copies to give to a company for free, (or the cost of duplicating a CD or some other nominal fee,) and then that company proceeds to sell it, (put ads on it or whatever,) is definitely not going to win any awards from taxpayer watchdog groups...

I also happen to know that a certain amount of those barriers weren't constructed by the city; the nearby residents built them themselves to cut down on cut through traffic, and part of the reason they aren't on the city map is because they really were never on the city's plans. When the pavement guys show up to repave they don't know why their paper map of the street doesn't exactly match how things look on the ground and really it isn't their job to find out, (they would be there for weeks if it was,) so they pave around it as best they can and whatever happened there looks more and more legit... Not exactly a barrier, (the residents like to keep those ones out of the news,) but one of my favorite guerrilla street installations is here:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_eye/2015 ... geles.html

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HES
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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby HES » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:48 am UTC

gimmespamnow wrote:I also happen to know that a certain amount of those barriers weren't constructed by the city; the nearby residents built them themselves to cut down on cut through traffic

That can't be legal. In the UK it would amount to "Obstruction of a highway".
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Re: 1580: "Travel Ghost"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:55 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:I'd very much like a fuzzy planner, so you can choose whether to walk to the next bus stop –to save money and go for a walk on a sunny day and waste less time waiting for a transfer– or take the bus –to avoid the rain or because you're lazy– or go by bike or by car –so you can get home quickly if you return late, after the last bus has departed.
Here in the Netherlands we have a great integrated public transport planner, but it doesn't allow fuzzy planning, nor any alternative plans at all, except for extra transfer time and manually adding a "via" location. And AFAIK google maps doesn't improve on this.

I am still looking for a planner that can account for OV-fiets (cheap bike rental at practically all train stations). I often take a train somewhere and then rent an OV fiets to bike to my final destination. The problem is: it can be complex to figure out which station is the most efficient, because a transfer can take more time than I need to bike to the destination, even if the bike route from the earlier station is longer.

On one route the current crop of planners calculated 13 hours for train and bus while smart train and ov fiets usage meant 1.5 hours (the bus part had a multiple hour wait somewhere).
Mikeski wrote:A "What If" update is never late. Nor is it early. It is posted precisely when it should be.

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