1238: "Enlightenment"

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arthurd006_5
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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby arthurd006_5 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:04 am UTC

CharlieP wrote:In my recent experience, the most-common misspelling of "definitely" is actually "defiantly", thanks to the proliferation of spill-chuckers and AutoCorrect. While extremely annoying, it at least opens the door to unintended humour...

Thank you. I expect to remember that noun phrase for almost as long as I live, and may use it, some time, to explain how I feel about blind spell-checking.

Edit: spelling :-) And yes, I have not yet achieved internet enlightenment.
Last edited by arthurd006_5 on Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:48 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Flumble » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:20 am UTC

LoopyChew wrote:--apparently I can't post URLs in any form here

Dose'nt any body now a days hear read the rule's?

I heavent sean people here who mess the sentense structure up jet.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby orthogon » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:33 am UTC

brenok wrote:But it begs the question: is there anyway it could get worse?

The thing is, "begging the question" was either a terrible translation into English, or a terrible translation into Latin, or a terrible way of saying it in Greek in the first place. (I don't know enough about either language to tell where it went wrong.) Of the three words, we are asked to accept that "begging" means something like "assuming", and "question" means "premise", neither of which fit comfortably with my understanding of the words. That only leaves "the", with which I don't have any immediate issue, but then again there are apparently no articles in Latin anyway. And even if you substitute the alleged meanings, you have "assuming the premise", which if I'm not mistaken is what you always do.

Personally I have no problem with this phrase taking on its literal English meaning; the supposedly correct meaning can be more clearly and evocatively expressed by phrases such as "circular argument".
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

sonalita
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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby sonalita » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:35 am UTC

brenok wrote:I my eyes literally burned upon seeing this comic. But it begs the question: is there anyway it could get worse? Because one could think of alot of ways to annoy gramatically sensitive people.


Typing "alot" rather than "a lot" is a pretty good start...

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:41 am UTC

obfpen wrote:Now, that stated, I'm aware that not all poor writing of the internet is down to the lazy. Some writers have difficulties of their own, and readers should consider them too. But the magic spell argument is flawed because, while spells are rarely taught, just about everyone with English as a first language and the ability to add text to the internet has been schooled in the rules of writing. In that context, it is fair to assume in many instances that the writer is not unable but unwilling. And that lack of consideration for their audience is rude.


At least this explains your position, it was intuitively very odd to me that you would assume people are not trying to use correct spelling. However, your reasoning and the conclusion it led to seem to imply an assumption on your part that the majority of people with access to the internet are native English speakers. While this would make your conclusion more defensible, it still foregoes the fact that many people are also incapable of learning proper spelling and grammar for their native language. Moreover, most people do not have English as their native language.

TL;DR part:
Spoiler:
Though I'm not an expert in this area, so cannot provide details about native languages, English wikipedia seems to indicate Mandarin is the most common native language. However, most Mandarin speakers probably live in mainland China and therefore do not have reasonable access to most of the internet. The second most common native language is indicated to be Castilian which does not have similar limitations. Although it is being followed closely by English, which can therefore be considered tied with Castilian. However, with only 5% of people having English as their native language combined with a much larger penetration of internet access (I did not find any more reliable sources, wikipedia says 39%) make it unlikely that most internet users speak English natively. English seems to be a language that is mostly learned as a second language.

On the other hand, a lot of people who learned English as a second language have also been schooled in English grammar and spelling. However, a lot of people don't use English regularly. Moreover, English training often only lasts a few years and is rarely intensive. Most of the common mistakes may be caused from people root learning the words phonetically which causes mix-up between words and contractions that sound similar or identical but use a different spelling, to me this is understandable in English as its orthography is hardly phonetic while using an usually phonetic script, not to speak of the numerous tenses used in English which may take up a lot of the limited training time.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby sonalita » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:44 am UTC

RAGBRAIvet wrote:Thank you for putting down in a coherent and succinct manner pretty much the same way I feel about the matter.


But he started a sentence with a conjunction! I was taught that it was poor form to do that ;)

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby StClair » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:48 am UTC

orthogon wrote:
StClair wrote:("Former" English major here.)

Your self-description makes me picture a slightly alcoholic sexagenarian British ex-serviceman with a clipped accent and a handlebar moustache.

Cute.
What I meant to imply, rather, is that though I may have finished my education and received my diploma, in some sense I shall always be such. It's not so much a course of study as a frame of mind.

Now, to complete the usual joke: would you like fries chips with that?

obfpen wrote:Now, that stated, I'm aware that not all poor writing of the internet is down to the lazy. Some writers have difficulties of their own, and readers should consider them too. But the magic spell argument is flawed because, while spells are rarely taught, just about everyone with English as a first language and the ability to add text to the internet has been schooled in the rules of writing. In that context, it is fair to assume in many instances that the writer is not unable but unwilling. And that lack of consideration for their audience is rude.


For what it may be worth, my own experience is that people for whom English is not a first language tend to follow the formal rules much more closely, as that is how they learned it, and thus their speech and/or writing is much more "correct" than the many native speakers who apparently simply can't be "bovvered."

Case in point, one of my current peeves: "would of". I submit that a person who learned the language formally would never commit this error, as it is an utterly nonsensical construction... unless one grew up hearing that group of phonemes and understands their usage in context, but never connected them to the actual words they represent ("would have" or its contraction), and therefore blindly grasps for the first words that might fit those sounds.
Last edited by StClair on Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:03 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Patrik3 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:57 am UTC

I agree with the comic about the insecure/asshole thing - I fall prone to it myself sometimes.

But if someone has the capability to write correctly, then by writing incorrectly, they're not proving that they're not insecure (I'm sorry, I didn't know how to phrase that with fewer negatives...) - they're just being an asshole themselves. The true test in panel 3, IMO, should have been "Read this sentence and only critique it upon its meaning, rather than any grammatical/spelling errors in it."

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby jc » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:10 pm UTC

brenok wrote:... one could think of alot of ways to annoy gramatically sensitive people.


And this includes misclasifying speling erors as gramatical errors. ;-)

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby FrobozzWizard » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:41 pm UTC

My own bit of grammatical resistance is the word "prolly": It's the word "probably" but written as said by a lazy person who doesn't want to put in all the syllbles.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby yellow103 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:44 pm UTC

The text itself is pretty important, admitting that somone elses ideas are good is certainly part of enlightenment.
(And, seriusly, the typos are less about doing it on purpose, as not going through a the trouble to check each sentence in feat that someone might make fun of you for it).
Someone should draft up a list of all the traits in the comic as a path to enlightment.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Carteeg_Struve » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:49 pm UTC

I have to side with Smash-Girl here. There are some roads to enlightenment where the tolls are just too high.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Kit. » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:02 pm UTC

obfpen wrote:
blowfishhootie wrote:Do you actually believe these are parallel situations?

Yes. Not caring about how well you express yourself and expecting everyone else

But there's nothing in this comic about "expecting everyone else".

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby mathmannix » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:41 pm UTC

Eye herd yore idea's end there defiantly god.

(Unfortunately, there are some roads to enlightenment where the trolls are just too high.)
I hear velociraptor tastes like chicken.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby adavies42 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:35 pm UTC

CharlieP wrote:In my recent experience, the most-common misspelling of "definitely" is actually "defiantly", thanks to the proliferation of spill-chuckers and AutoCorrect. While extremely annoying, it at least opens the door to unintended humour...


a scary proportion of the occurences of "aquatinted" on the nets come from spell checkers trying to fix "acquainted" spelled without the 'c'.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby adavies42 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:35 pm UTC

how does that laptop balance?

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby cct » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:37 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:The thing is, "begging the question" was either a terrible translation ... Of the three words, we are asked to accept that "begging" means something like "assuming", and "question" means "premise", ...


I herd you're idea, but I defiantly disagree. (Well, I hope to politely disagree, but with "defiantly" floating about in the discussion, using it was just too tempting.)

"Begging" means (roughly) "demanding," and I believe we should infer a reader (or hearer). We might say, "demanding the question [from the reader]," or, "begging [the reader to ask] the question."

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby VectorZero » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:39 pm UTC

Quicksilver wrote:Alt Text:"But the rules of writing are like magic spells. If you never acquire them, then not using them says nothing."
Or as Pratchett put it: Any ignorant fool can fail to turn someone else into a frog. You have to be clever to refrain from doing it when you knew how easy it was.
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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby adavies42 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:41 pm UTC

i thought there was an earlier xkcd about how the best way to get an answer or comment replies or something was to make a spelling or grammatical mistake in yore post, but now i can't find it. (i suppose it's possible i'm remembering some other webcomic....) does anyone know what i'm talking about?

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby orthogon » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:52 pm UTC

cct wrote:
orthogon wrote:The thing is, "begging the question" was either a terrible translation ... Of the three words, we are asked to accept that "begging" means something like "assuming", and "question" means "premise", ...


I herd you're idea, but I defiantly disagree. (Well, I hope to politely disagree, but with "defiantly" floating about in the discussion, using it was just too tempting.)

"Begging" means (roughly) "demanding," and I believe we should infer a reader (or hearer). We might say, "demanding the question [from the reader]," or, "begging [the reader to ask] the question."

I politely agree, but that isn't what the pedants tell us it means. We're supposed to use it to mean "making an circular argument; making an argument in which an implicit premise would directly entail the conclusion". I don't think I've ever seen it used that way except in examples of how it's supposed to be used. You might almost say that people who use it that way are begging the question.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Zylon » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:55 pm UTC

Oh look, Randall trolling his own readers again. How edgy.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby nixiebunny » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:29 pm UTC

This comic is not about people who don't use the correct homonym, but about people who find it so grating that they are unable to deal with said use. The fact that such misuse is prevalent on the Internet is a sign that our language invites said misuse. Which, come to think of it, makes perfect sense. Homonyms are a very stupid idea. Why are their three words that sound identical but have completely different meanings and spellings?

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Trickster » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:31 pm UTC

WASN'T

IT'S

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

(also I had to look up "wasn't" after reading it twelve times to make sure it was a real word)
Last edited by Trickster on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:38 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Trickster » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:37 pm UTC

nixiebunny wrote:This comic is not about people who don't use the correct homonym, but about people who find it so grating that they are unable to deal with said use. The fact that such misuse is prevalent on the Internet is a sign that our language invites said misuse. Which, come to think of it, makes perfect sense. Homonyms are a very stupid idea. Why are their three words that sound identical but have completely different meanings and spellings?

THERE

...I'm sorry.

The reason homonyms exist is they are an intellectual shibboleth, fellow geeky gals and guys. They give you a sense of how well-educated someone is, which is sometimes useful if you are looking for opinion veracity. If I see someone with a poster that says, "In America English is are language!" this suggests that perhaps the person who wrote the poster didn't really do any research into the position they are taking...because they don't normally read books. If they read books, they wouldn't make that mistake.

Read a book, read a book, read a motherfucking book.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby orthogon » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:55 pm UTC

nixiebunny wrote:Homonyms are a very stupid idea. Why are their three words that sound identical but have completely different meanings and spellings?

Good question. I vaguely remember Steven Pinker (I really must find another pop psycholinguist to rave about) talking in one of his books about the prevalence of homonyms, homophones and polysemy. It seems we naturally prefer a smaller vocabulary of words, even at the cost of potential ambiguity that has to be resolved by context.

Perhaps it's something to do with the way phonology restricts the number of allowed words so that the short ones, which you want to be using for things you talk about a lot, tend to get re-used. But there seems to be something else going on. Even within a narrow field you find the same word re-used. For example, in electronics, a pad can either be the small patch on a circuit board or IC to which the wires are connected, or an attenuator. In jazz, fours can either be crotchets(=quarter-notes) or sections of four bars (=measures) traded between the front-line and the drums. (Actually I've never heard the first usage, but Bluff your way in Jazz assures me it's true.)

I'll try to find the Pinker reference tonight - I have the books in old fashioned paper form and the search facility sucks.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby nixiebunny » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:00 pm UTC

Trickster wrote:
nixiebunny wrote:This comic is not about people who don't use the correct homonym, but about people who find it so grating that they are unable to deal with said use. The fact that such misuse is prevalent on the Internet is a sign that our language invites said misuse. Which, come to think of it, makes perfect sense. Homonyms are a very stupid idea. Why are their three words that sound identical but have completely different meanings and spellings?

THERE

...I'm sorry.

The reason homonyms exist is they are an intellectual shibboleth, fellow geeky gals and guys... If they read books, they wouldn't make that mistake.

Read a book, read a book, read a motherfucking book.


Yabut... I lived in Mexico for a year, and learned enough Spanish to get me through it. I noticed that Spanish is utterly unlike English, in that there is only one way to spell a word with a certain sound, so homonyms are ultra-rare. Yet, Americans elect stupid people to high public office at least as often as people in Mexico do. So it ultimately serves no purpose, because the shibboleth is undetected by the masses. All it does is aggravate readers!

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby cellocgw » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:05 pm UTC

brenok wrote:I my eyes literally burned upon seeing this comic. But it begs the question: is there anyway it could get worse? Because one could think of alot of ways to annoy gramatically sensitive people.


I think theirs a concensus of opinion that you have a very unique idea!

BTW I have a dog named "It" (or I would, if it were a molpy). So I can say "This is It's dinner" and be apostrophically correct.
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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby lgw » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:17 pm UTC

Trickster wrote:WASN'T

IT'S

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

(also I had to look up "wasn't" after reading it twelve times to make sure it was a real word)


That's odd - why the problem with wasn't? Or was it just a case of staring at a word too long? How do you feel about "won't"? And Lewis Carrol writing it "wo'n't" to try to make it make sense?
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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby burndive » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:38 pm UTC

And just like that, a new Internet meme was born.

Sadly, this phrase looses its therapeutic effect when typed ironically.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Whizbang » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:46 pm UTC

Maybe before we rush to hear your ideas, we should stop to consider the consequences of blithely giving the internet such a central position in your life.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby TheIronyChef » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:01 pm UTC

The last panel should have included the worst apostrophe omission, "were" in place of "we're". That's the one that proves the Apostrophocalypse is nigh.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Barstro » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:26 pm UTC

nixiebunny wrote:The fact that such misuse is prevalent on the Internet is a sign that our language invites said misuse.


This reminds me of something I heard several years ago about someone proposing a law that people on TV be required to speak proper grammar. Despite being a perfect example of overly-broad government, I think it would be nice if news anchors and other "intelligent" tv used only proper grammar. That would help the masses get used to the correct way to speak. It bothers me that irregardless is a word now just because the public kept using it until better minds gave up. That might be why inflammable means what it means.

I've told more than one client in the past; "if you think James Earl Jones would sound like a ****** for using that phrase, then you should find another way to say it". It stopped them from saying "True dat, yo" on the witness stand.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Xantix » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:39 pm UTC

It seems like she went to a lot of effort to break that laptop; Tear it off with both hands, turn it over, and then drop it on the ground. How else do you explain the laptop rotating just one half a turn at that height and the part closest to the joint ending farthest away? (I don't have any laptops handy to test, so I'll leave this one for you).

On the other hand, at least she learned how to go invisible, so who cares about levitating, cause everyone knows that invisibility is better than flying. QED.

All this, over just one typo, and an otherwisely perfectly correct sentence.

There was this person named "Idea". Was it a man or a woman? We don't know. Idea had a good -- a definately good. Together, Idea and their definately good had you, or so I hear.

I heard that you're Idea's and their definately good.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Sprocket » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:41 pm UTC

I like it. It goes back to a facebook post someone made the other day where they were saying "you don't have to correct your spelling errors when you send me a text, I know what you meant." and I said "yeah but there are so many assholes who have to beat you to the punch and correct you if you don't correct yourself" and someone else said "I just can't deal with people thinking I don't know the difference between their there and they're."

But there is more than one kind of insecurity, and certain people are led to be assholes by it, the defense mechanism of if you think you're not good enough, decide you're actually better than everyone else. And then there are the people who just let it make them nervous all the time. Similarly, some really smart awesome competent people decide to be assholes because they decide they're better than everyone else, and some decide not to be.
Last edited by Sprocket on Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:45 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Kaelin » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:44 pm UTC

I mostly agree with Patrik3 in that deliberately using poor grammar (not just willingly doing so, but doing so on purpose) can rank pretty high on the asshole meter. Because then you're not just carrying a prejudice against bad grammar users (or you wouldn't be reacting to the use of poor grammar), you're also mocking them for it.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Sprocket » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:46 pm UTC

Kaelin wrote:I mostly agree with Patrik3 in that deliberately using poor grammar (not just willingly doing so, but doing so on purpose) can rank pretty high on the asshole meter. Because then you're not just carrying a prejudice against bad grammar users (or you wouldn't be reacting to the use of poor grammar), you're also mocking them for it.

Being willing to do it and fear no judgement in any direction, to just not care what other people think, is the idea.
However plenty of people who REALLY don't care what other people think are IN FACT THE BIGGEST ASSHOLES ON EARTH.

In fact, we call people who REALLY don't care what other people think, Sociopaths.
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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby goofy » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:53 pm UTC

Literacy privilege:

'the idea that there is only one right way of doing English – and everyone else is doing it wrong – is inherently flawed. And by “flawed” I mean illogical, elitist and even oppressive.'

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby keester » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:54 pm UTC

Thanks Randall, I was worried the anti-intellectual movement was losing steam. Now they can get back to calling us losers for bothering to do all that book learnin' and caring about getting things right.

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Kit. » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:02 pm UTC

Well, ladies and gentlemen, I think you're all missing the point.

Is it only possible for an Internet enlightened to be a humble asshole, or can an insecure one qualify as such too?

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Re: 1238: "Enlightenment"

Postby Zylon » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:29 pm UTC

Xantix wrote:All this, over just one typo, and an otherwisely perfectly correct sentence.


You're not fooling anyone.


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