Meta discussion

[Adacore]

Hey hey, you didn't have permission to read that spoiler, Mav!

She was perhaps just referring to the spoiler's existence, rather than its content

EDIT: I totally never edited this to fix the grammar. Mav speaks nothing but lies.

[Mavketl]

I was! I'm still deciding whether I'll read it or not. Maybe I'm better off not knowing...


(tee hee Adacore said it's)

[Adacore]

Lies I say! Vicious lies!

[cjdrum]

And this, my friends, is why we call this Meta Discussion.

Mav, I could reveal the contents of that spoiler, but I may have to kill you.

[_infina_]

I really want to point out that there are no rules in this thread about spoilered content, but that seems a bit too obvious. Also, rather funny. I'd give it 8/10.

[Mavketl]

Mav, I could reveal the contents of that spoiler, but I may have to kill you.

Wouldn't be the first time.

I really want to point out that there are no rules in this thread about spoilered content

There's a difference between between what's allowed by the rules and what is the right thing to do, _infina_.[/sanctimonious]


(Right, ehm, I think this thread is supposed to be a bit more Serious Business than the discussion thread... so maybe I should stop spamming it with random crap. Sorry.)

[cjdrum]

Wouldn't be the first time.

... Didn't think of it like that, but yes. It wouldn't.

[/randomcrap]

[Zid]

Now that I'm dead in Tropes, I can explain my decision. I've posted something similar in the discussion thread.

From my position, I'd just found out I'm going to be vanilla town and I'd missed out on a power, the biggest content providers had been killed and there was so much active lurking going on (look at the fuckin' view count on that thread!) I stand by my line of thinking, lurking is a winning strategy for mafia on this forum because everyone is so against lynching a lurker which gives the mafia the benefit of the doubt.. even when it's so obvious that lurking is happening.

So I'm frustrated, and then I see an opening, someone who hasn't been saying all that much decides that there's something to say in the discussion thread rather than in the game. Say you're scum, you aren't going to go scum hunting at the start of the game, so you can't lead a vote because people will be suspicious of you the next day.. there's not much you can really say in the thread. If you want to say something in the discussion thread but not in the game, it's something you don't want the game to know about. You haven't been seen actively scum hunting in the game. It looks like scum, smells like scum and tastes like scum.

As stated in the game, it wasn't just that alone that made me think he was scum, it made me re-read and look deeper for other scumtells and I found things that made me suspicious.

In a game where everyone knows everyone is second guessing everything, Occam's razor is deadly.

Onto the ethical side of it. If it could be policed, I would be for banning using it as a tactic...but it can't and as such it's not against the rules, just like lurking is not against the rules, something which I would also like to see the end of. Just like mass claims are not against the rules or "if I was cop I would cop X" PMs.
My mentality on this mainly comes from my competitiveness, why not use everything you can to get ahead?

[Weeks]

Speaking of Tropes...

Oh my, the case of the missing mod! Again! How many times has this happened in games I've played? Let me count: 1...2...3...3 games, that I remember. My, this is alarming! Sounds like we should do something, do you agree?

[webby]

Hi, I'm a mafia noob - played a couple of times in person, but never online. How should I get involved? Are there any specific games for new players, or any games which would be suitable?

Apologies if this is the wrong thread for this.

[cjdrum]

Welcome, webby!

To start, I'll direct your attention to first this thread and then, after that, this one. You sound like you know how to play Mafia, so the first one should be more of a "This is how we do it online".

The second one, as you can see, is for the sign ups. Occasionally, there're "Newbie" games, which are fairly simple and good for, well, new players.
At the moment, there's none of those in signups I think official Newbie games are pretty rare.

I'd suggest looking for a "Mini" game that is in that thread - playing in a Large or Medium would be quite hard to adjust to online play. For example, I'm running a game fairly shortly, which is a Mini and extremely basic roles - a game like that is a good one to start on if there aren't any Newbie games.

I guess that's all I can say. If I've missed something, somebody else will tell you

Good luck, and welcome again!

[webby]

So dethy is like normal mafia except with only cops and mafia and the cops get weird results? I think I can do that. Thanks for the welcome!

[Dark Loink]

[discussion about spoilers]

My problem, besides the use of spoilers as stratagy(since I am a very spoilery person)if I am any alignment, I ususally post spoilers. Even if I'm town, I'll make a spoiler before my post-it helps to get your post orginized at times. So using this isn't really a fool proof thing. Of course it wasn't your entire argument, but spoilers don't always contain amazing things. They are a place to say what you want to say, say what you can't say, and say what makes you frusturated.



And with webby-
Probably a mini or newbie game, but you do know how to play mafia. That is a plus. Honestly, maybe read a game or two, and you'll probably see the differences. Also, really, jumping into it is really the best way to start to understand it. That said, my first game was a mini, but a rather strange one, clue.
And ahippo's first online game was Legacy, and he won it by himself. He had played mafia for a long time, but never online, and that was not a newbie game.
Just go with what sounds fun, I'd think.
Ninja'd
Yeah, death is basicly cops and more cops.

[Krong]

webby:

Just another quick note or two:

The main discussion thread is thisaway. Most of it is spoilers of people's thoughts for games they're playing (i.e. don't read them if you're in that game or would like to be), but people tend to post there when looking for players, as well.

Also, Newbie games are run pretty much whenever it feels like there's demand for them, as there's lots of us here who'd gladly mod one whenever the chance arises.

[Weeks]

Yeah, I think we should ban mods! I totes agree!

[roband]

Yeah, I think we should ban mods! I totes agree!

Heyyyy. (Taking offence because I seem to be modding more than playing these days)

[Lataro]

I think we need another poll thread here, but rather than just make one for each issue, it'd make more sense to make a comprehensive poll thread, so we can get all the issues in one and stop topic spam. Some things I think need to be revisted are below.

Should we return the large and/or medium queue system back to the old system, that was the same as the mini queue system?

Should we eliminate the turbo mini queue slot, due to decreased interest/player pool for turbo-style games?



Those are just two questions that jump to mind immediately, if anyone else has some they would like to add, or suggestions for modifying the above, that would be great. Once this has sat around for awhile, we can make a single poll thread and combine everything and see where people stand.

[Lataro]

Right... no one cares. Seems things are dying down pretty hardcore around here. We've bleeding people like crazy, and any new people that come around don't stay.

[ahippo]

The real problem is the people who've been around for a long time but don't continue to play now. Like Amy for example. A great player whom we all admire for her skill. She has been around for a long time (or at least longer than me) but now she doesn't really play anymore. It's sad to me. Where's Vox? b.i.o? frogman? Gojoe? OOTD? arduous? Not a Raptor? MoA?

Maybe not all of these people are completely veteran but hey. You get my point. Those were people who I recognized as being around for more than a month or two. And maybe there were perfectly good reasons why they don't want to play anymore. Or maybe they'll come back eventually. But it kind of confuses me how you could have players that have been around for a long time just decide to stop playing. I was always in the camp of thought that you are either one of two people:

1. A person who had fun in a game (or maybe didn't) but really didn't think it worth his/her while to come back and play more games. Or maybe you decide to play one or two more but quickly decide that it's not really your cup of tea.

2. Someone who comes on this forum and discovers something you really like. Thus you stick around, testing your wits day after day, against your fellow players. Once you get hooked it's hard to stop loving the game.

All I know is it looks like there are still people who are sticking around no matter what. I know I'm not leaving any time soon. In fact at this time I can't imagine a single reason I would stop playing mafia. I for one really like the community we have here, especially those who have been and will be here for a long time. I've been around for almost a year now (May 2nd last year) but I had such a fun time with my first game that I felt compelled to stay. So maybe I owe it to Entropy for keeping me around, but he only puts games up once a year-ish. So really it's been everyone. I've been playing mafia since my childhood and all of the sudden when I came here I discovered so much about how great the game can really be. IMO much more fun than traditional gaming.

For those of you who have been around for a long time: What keeps you coming back? Whatever it is you enjoy could keep more people here. So spread the joy and help keep new players around.

[Dark Loink]

The problem is investment. I always though that I should stop signing up for mutlitple game, because I am bad at posting a lot during them. But the reason is that I am not invested in a game as much if I have 3 more that I am in. Then I could lose in one, but it doesn't matter as much. I've got two more.
I like mafia when I get into it. Which is basically by forcing myself into it, paying a little attention. I like mafia when I care about it, but I have gotten to points where I play just to play. Because the signups are there, and its just something I do.

When you start getting automated, you need some sort of break from it. Either not playing for a bit, or cutting down on games. At least for me, this is what I've had to do. I think I'm out of that, but I feel worse being a game zombie than not playing the game.

[Weeks]

Entropy.

Also, I love Mafia and continue to play it elsewhere. I recently began playing IRL, have followed IRC mafia for a few months, and even played FaiD mafia. :D

I think it's the roleplay + crime elements. Like interactive fiction, but with added fun, and shooting Brook when he least expects it.

My biggest problem is time management, and for that reason I stopped playing for a while. I wouldn't be surprised if a few others had this reason to quit, at least temporarily. Games are, to me, a commitment, and as Brook and amt I can't play a turbo given my college schedule. I won't play more than a game or two at a time in order to concentrate the most.

I think the player base is being replaced slowly instead of decreasing/increasing (time for another investimagation!). Perhaps changes should reflect this. Also, despite the forum looking dead, you might notice that summer is approaching and if I'm not mistaken this is a frantic time in the academic world of the north, in which we have many players.

About the queues: The turbo queues have been screwing with each other, it would seem. Like, when there was Zoo mafia, nobody signed up for Sailor mafia (turbo / turbo mini, respectively). It was insane to play HUAC and Moa Replay at the same time. Two Cults mafia never took off while we played Departed mafia! I seriously think we should have one turbo slot/queue/thing. A smaller game than a turbo would probably be radical and very occasional, thus probably needing its own queue/section, which could possibly be merged/coalesced/kerbobbled with the other occasional game type, Invitationals (an idea I have been trying to plant in y'alls mind for so long).

However, I think newbie games need more emphasis if we want the player base to expand instead of remain constant (or even shrink...). Some multiple of 7 days and a bit ago I suggested making a new newbie guide which we could collaborate in and afterwards edit into the stickied thread with the help of the divine, but it seems to have gone somewhat unnoticed (and I never created a page xD).

I think large games and medium games *could* *potentially* *some day* be merged too into a two-slot general game queue which is approximately the amount of big games we tend to play at a time (with good pacing. Lost Mafia was there for AGES (october - february in the active slot)). The mini slot seems to be popular, and with the trimming down of one super large game and a super quick game, its activity might increase.

I plan to keep hanging around even if I'm not active, and contribute semi-vague ruminations every now and then. Heck, maybe even mod a Mythology Mafia II: Godly Boogaloo. ;)

[Van]

Weeks is wise. Especially +1ing enhanced newbie games. I think the biggest issue is new player retention. How do we fix that? I don't know! I think that is potentially more of a player thing: remember Amy's newbie vs, say, DEFCON? One was extremely fast paced and interesting, and the other was DEFCON. You would think a really good first result would motivate people to keep playing, but how many of them played in several games after that? How many people from that game are still around now, just about a year later? The answers to both of those questions are the same:

joshz
nbonaparte
phlip
Cynical Idealist
Nith Azra
MasterCheif
RoadieRich
dotproduct
Secateurs
TheGrammarBolshevik

In other words, all the newbies vanished after that single, first, game.

Personally, I have extremely sporadic game availability. I could be around to post every 15 minutes for several days, and then have the awesome choice between sleep and posting for 5 days straight. Turbos obviously mess with that a super lot.

I also am a complete sucker for flavor and weird mechanics, so I try to meta the queue and schedule my game playing around games I expect to have those

[Adacore]

I've cut back how much mafia I play dramatically, and I may cut it to pretty much zero once I finish with Inception. Now I play only one game at a time and, like Van, I meta the queue to make sure I'm available to sign up for the most interesting-looking games.

I'm in favour of a turbo-queue merge. I don't think there's any need for two turbo types, and I'd also support a large/medium queue merge at some point, with a player cap something around 25 (but recommend 20 - I think 16-20 is pretty much optimal for non-simple mafia games).

I think newbie games should always be fairly simple vanilla-type setups. I don't think we have a massive problem with losing newbies, though. The following players joined in the last 6 months and stuck around thus far: John Citizen, cjdrum, slbub, Chandani, Ibarra, more_people, Wooy`, and probably loads more I can't remember.

[Misnomer]

I'm in two minds about a turbo queue merge. On the one hand, I'd hate to see a reduction in my beloved turbo games... on the other hand, they do seem to be choking each other atm...

If we are going to do a big restructure though, then here's what I'd suggest:

- Merge the Medium and Large queues into one Large queue, with games starting every month. No player caps.
- Rename the Mini queue as the Normal queue. Stick a player cap of 15 on it and enforce this.
- Create a Small queue, with one active game slot. Set a player cap of 9 on it and enforce this.
- Merge the Turbo queues. Add start/finish dates in a bid to enforce turboness.

Also, it occurs to me that perhaps we should replace the Newbie queue with a Vanilla queue? Games would be restricted to simple open and seni-open setups. We'd probably get Newbie-friendly games occuring more regularly than we currently do, as well as throwing a bone to all the vanilla fans out there.

Thoughts?

[Adacore]

I don't like games with more than 25 players - I don't think they're ever necessary, and generally (imo) editing a game down actually improves it, as much as you might dislike doing it, as a mod. Conversely, I do like minis with 7-10 players. So I'd prefer to keep minis at a 10 (or maybe 12) player cap, and then have a limit of 25 on the normal (formerly large/medium) games.

I don't mind the idea of replacing newbie with vanilla, although we'd need some kind of rules on what's acceptable as "vanilla".

[_infina_]

Vanilla: Can include up to three, but no more than 1 each, of the following roles - Cop, Doctor, Godfather, Miller, Roleblocker.

That seem like a fair definition. As for sizes, how about small is less than 15, and large is anything greater than fifteen, letting the mod choose what size would be reasonable for that game.

[Misnomer]

Vanilla: Can include up to three, but no more than 1 each, of the following roles - Cop, Doctor, Godfather, Miller, Roleblocker.

That would be too strict for my liking. I'd prefer to define it as a game with no non-standard mechanics, no bastardry, only sane standard roles, only one scum faction and no cult. Mods would also be expected to use their common sense in making the setup simple.

For example, I would say that a setup of 1 Cop, 1 Jailer, 5 Vanilla and 2 Scum should be permitted.

[Adacore]

I think I'd like an open setup requirement on vanilla (or semi-open, with a number of listed possibilities).

[Wooy`]

I think that maybe a straight Vanilla ran semi-often (such as F11, C9, ) would be great.
-It'd give newbie players a chance to join in without having to deal with the weirdness/unique mechanics of non-vanilla games.
-It'd help to give the not-newbie players a break from all the flavor-loaded games and test solely their mafia-skills
-It'd give players who want to mod, but have little/no experience, a way to get said experience.

[_infina_]

To recap, the queue would look like this:
Large Game (15-30ish players) (2-3 games active)(4-6 games queued)
Small Game (<15 players) (2 games active) (4 games queued)
Turbo (3 week max) (1 game active) (3 games queued)
Vanilla Game (no fancy mechanics) (max 2 games active) (max 3 games queued)

does that seem about right? Would we be able to merge the current queues into this? I'll work on how it would transfer over to this setup for the pre-signup stuff.

[Weeks]

I'm fine with it!

[_infina_]

Here is how I think it should merge:

Large Games (15-30 Players) ------------------------------(3 Max)
1. Homestar Scummer (Dark Loink, ahippo)
2. Aliasafia (Dr Ug)
3. Inception Mafia (Entropy, ameretrifle)
Large Queue -------------------------------------------------(6 Max)
1. DF Mafia (frogman, Vieto)
2. Battlestar Gamafia (VectorZero)
3. Sailor Moon Mafia (_infina_/Queen Serenity, 1-2 others)
4. Wizardry v2.5 (Aardvarki, ElectricHaze)
5. Warhammer MafiaK (more_people, RoadieRich)
6. Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels Mafia (roband)

Small Games (<15 Players) --------------------------------(2 Max)
1. Duel Mafia (roband + Lataro)
2. Assassins Creedia (ForAllOfThis & GopherofPern)
Small Queue ------------------------------------------------(4 Max)
1. All the King's Men (ahippo & weiyaoli) (Delayed)
2. The Resistance 2 (Jay - may have some turbo-ish deadlines, but can likely be extended if necessary).
3. Maff Effect (VectorZero)
4. Mystery Mafia (BigNose)

Turbo Games (3 Weeks Max) -----------------------------(1 Max)
1. Call of Cthulhu (AngrySquirrel)
Temp. The Hunting Party (GopherofPern)
Turbo Queue ------------------------------------------------(3 Max)
1. C9++ (Misnomer)
2. Chez Geek (RoadieRich)
3. Rainbow Mafia (BigNose)

Vanilla Games (No Fancy Mechanics) ---------------------(2 Max)
1. The Sheriff of Nottingham (RoadieRich)
2. xkcidy dethy (dotproduct, cjdrum)
Vanilla Queue -----------------------------------------------(3 Max)
1.
2.
3.

[Weeks]

...Actually I think 3 games in one huge queue won't change much; Alias should be nuked (it's dead) to leave it at two games. Mostly because of how relatively inactive the forum is now.

[Lataro]

I don't think we need two vanilla running at the same time. I'd rather it be left at 1 running, and see a <10 (9 max) one game active queue, for really small games that aren't turbos, but go quickly enough, and make a good testing area for mods and mechanics, due to a decent queue speed resulting from really small games. I truly believe there is more interest in smaller games than larger ones on these forums.

I'd also agree with torpedoing a large, since it really isn't needed at this time. As for the player cap, I dunno how others feel, but unless I had a real raging boner for the flavor, I can't see myself signing up for a game with more than 25 people in it, at the max. I mean, look at homestar, it's sitting at 20 and not really getting anyone new, and is in fact losing signups. I really don't think we have a large or active enough population to really support super-sized games anymore, especially with people like me who avoid games that are too large as a rule.

[Lataro]

another thing, making the small queue 15 max will greatly slow it down, since the large is 15-x, the small should be under 15, so 14 max, though personally, I'd prefer it to be 12 max. 15 though is too close to an old medium.

[roband]

Lock, Stock is going to take a hit here isn't it? August was the perfect time for me to be running that.

Also, it's 26 roles, but I can promise awesomeness.

[Dialogue]

Let’s open a Dialogue.

I don’t play a lot of mafia but I do follow the games on a few forums. The entropy problems you are having are not unique. I am hearing the same concerns everywhere.

[Gopher of Pern]

Do we really have the numbers for more than 1 large game? ATM its only Inception. Homestar hasn't got the numbers, and Alias is in limbo atm, and even if it did get going, there would likely be a quick need for replacements.

I reckon more smaller games should be the go. 1 Turbo, 3 small, 1 large and 1 vanilla at a time should be plenty. So far, in the couple of months I've been playing, it has been the smaller games that have had the most activity. I have yet had the chance to participate in a large game (didn't realise how quickly inception was gonna fill up!), but they do seem quite slow.

Just a (relative) newcomers opinion.

[Adacore]

I think two concurrent large games works well, personally. It's nice to have an overlap, so that players who enjoy large games but get killed early don't have to wait for months before the next game begins. And I think we probably have the players to support that - Alias filled up (only died because of mod absence), Inception insta-filled (although because of Entropy's reputation), Homestarscummer isn't doing too badly - it's probably got enough players to be viable, now.

I think the main problem with large games filling is actually just as related to the flavour knowledge requirement as it is to a lack of interested players - stuff like Alias, Homestar, Buffy, &c. tend to put people off if they don't know the flavour.

[mpolo]

I very much enjoy the large/medium flavor-filled games. If we set it up so that they aren't starting absolutely simultaneously, then the early deaths from one become available for the new one that's starting. I think that most of the games that are suffering in signups are from flavor blindness of the players. Which is often a shame, but understandable.