Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

For your simulated organized crime needs.

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Sabrar
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Sabrar » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:58 pm UTC

@bessie: I watched you N1. :wink:

Watched somitomi N2, obviously turned out to be naive. :(

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Vicarin
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Vicarin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:17 pm UTC

Also I still find it kind of hilarious that the scum team thought I was Doctor because I kept mentioning it when talking about why NLing was a bad idea. I'm not quite sure how I could have convinced everyone it was bad without saying Doc repeatedly :D .

I tried copping BoomFrog N1 and was going to do Sabrar and Bessie later on juuuust in case. Also because the end of D1 looked ridiculously bad until PW flipped scum. But I was naive and dead anyway, oh well.

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somitomi
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby somitomi » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:35 pm UTC

I tracked Madge N1 and Laserguy N2, which didn't exactly help me determine my own sanity. Shame, I don't think I could've been any more useless as a power role, sorry about that :oops:
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Vicarin
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Vicarin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:48 pm UTC

Tracker is just hard to get a useful result in a game like this, the Tracker/Doctor combo we had was pretty damn bad for actually getting useful results. Of course, Tracker/Cop would have been even worse with me dying N1, but oh well.

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Madge
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Madge » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:16 am UTC

Fun game!! Thanks for running it wam/suzaku!!

When's the next one?? I will have my revenge on the lot of you!!

I also agree that short deadlines would be great - two or three days. Flicky, don't leave us!!! I am scared that the new meta is going to these long days and detailed take downs and that's not my style and I don't want to go somewhere else because this place is quiet enough that i can be quietly addicted to mafia rather than risking going on one of those mafia megaforums and being in 17 games at once because they all sounded too good to pass up.
I'm writing a supernatural romance novel, it updates the first weekend of every month. You can find it here.

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Vicarin
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Vicarin » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:49 am UTC

If we're voting on deadlines, I'd like shorter deadlines too. If we've got a week to discuss, then it seems like people don't want to vote properly until the last day or two, which makes the first 4-5 days a lot of wasted time mostly. I was trying to push everyone to vote D1 so that people would have time to claim before they got lynched, and look what happened to PW (who was scum, but if he'd been a PR, I'd have been SO ANNOYED).

Vote early, vote often. Use that lynch.

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Hari Seldon
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Hari Seldon » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:54 am UTC

Bussing PW was entirely an accident. I am cold enough to NK a newbie n1, but not enough to bus my partner who I assured wouldn't be lynched :(. The only reason I voted PW was because I was in panic mode: Jim had just called out the entire Scum team and Boom had just asked me to lynch between my partners.

I didn't expect Boom to get enough votes on PW, but I had intended to switch to Flicky if he did. Unfortunately, I didn't make it back online until I was a couple of minutes too late.


Vicarin wrote:NNY

Spoiler:
Pro tip: if someone pushes for NL with either no justification or an extremely flimsy one (at least Sabrar and Laserguy tried defending the position),
they're pretty likely to be scum. Or, apparently, Madge. I was actually betting she was either scum or a selfish PR who gets info, so finding out she was vanilla... Have to take that into account for future games. Less of an issue in closed games anyway, as with no idea how many kills or powers are going around, NL is just atrocious.

For the record, if the Doctor was guaranteed ineffective in this setup, then NL D1 is fine. But only then, and you should debate over it a bunch beforehand to have more stuff to talk about D2. So no autolynches in future games if I do propose NL D1 plz :) (if it's an open setup. Closed, go nuts)

That ended up long, but I kind of want to whack some people over the head for what they're not looking at. Probably being really biased too from my cushy spoilered position but aaarggg come on go for the NLers there's both scum in there!
I completely disagree with this. NLing was a valid option. It wouldn't have been in Town's interest this game (@LaserGuy was right. I wanted to NL so I could kill a PR); however, the only reason I argued for it was because the logic was sound and Town Hari would have agreed with it. Your policy lynch would not have worked. Most people who supported NLing were Town. And I'm pretty sure Cemper and PW would have been disgruntled had a NL actually happened. I'm confused by your unwillingness to accept that Doc protections have a very low chance of happening.

BTW I am really glad that you kept up with the game. It is enjoyable reading through the Gojoe posts. Hopefully I can be on the side of your obvTowniness in the future.

cemper93 wrote:
Spoiler:
For those following along at home:
Hari Seldon, in scum chat, wrote: I was aware that Boom's protect would likely succeed btw. Since they NLed, however, I was willing to take the opportunity to 50% kill Sabrar. I think the resulting WIFOM is more advantageous than the situation we would have been in after a Boom kill. I'm hoping that Boom will come to the conclusion that scum is between those he did not include in his lynch order. Also there should be feeling that Hari would not target Sabrar since he has had his back throughout the game.
Read: Hari is now in complete panic mode and has decided to throw the game by overthinking it instead of just riding MoA's and his town status to LYLO and victory. COME ON HARI TAKE A VALIUM OR SOMETHING AND RELAX!

Also, pretty glad I got out of this game seeing that jimbob is getting wagoned on for having unclear reads. If his reads are already considered unclear, then I'd have been lynch fodder for sure!
:mrgreen:. I assure you I was of sound mind. There would have been no benefit to killing Boom because we would still have to achieve the same number of mislynches. Since Town NLed, we basically had a free Night to see if we could kill Sabrar. If not, we could just kill Boom the next Night with no loss. Also, Town credit isn't indefinite. You have to spend it to get a mislynch or other pro-scum things. I don't think I had enough Town credit to try and swing the lynch to Laser at the last half hour D3 (as I did attempt to do), Night kill Boom who had recently voiced suspicions of me, and then lynch Laser/Jim without repercussion. My hope was to add just a little bit of irregularity to keep Town's attention from drifting toward the right path; and to hopefully get endorsement by Boom this during the phase.

@Scum Team: It was very fun partnering with you guys. Cemper, I was sad that you replaced out, but I certainly understand. There's no worries. PW, I am so sorry for being a part of your lynch. I really didn't mean for it to happen. And you did help even if you didn't mean to (e.g. your interaction with Cemper, your interaction with Madge, your Vic breadcrum, your Bessie Appeal to Emotion).

Regarding the setup
Spoiler:
This game was really really difficult. I mentioned in the Scum chat that it is like having 4 innocent children—two of which are PRs—who you either don’t touch or have to gamble on not being sane. It was certainly interesting and I like the concept, but I don’t think it is a setup that should be used for Newbies. If LaserGuy’s D1 plan had gone through, the PRs would have been untouchable unless Scum were willing to take a 50% chance at revealing themselves. With 4 clearable Townies, the game is heavily favored toward a PoE win. Furthermore, it’s very difficult for scum to make pushes without fear of their target claiming and clearing themselves.

I think in this setup, it is Town’s best interest to proceed in way that Laser’s plan outlined—that is, openly. That way, they can get the full use out of the InnoC nature of the PRs. I do not think that a Newbie Scum team would have realized they should try to prevent such a strategy and to try to keep the roles as hidden as possible. When it comes to role hunting, scum has one huge advantage: they know who is Town. Townie’s have a harder time picking out PR tells, because from their eyes, those PR tells could be fake, or they may perceive them as scum tells. This camouflage does not exist for Scum’s eyes, so they can pick out PRs much easier. Therefore, it is to their advantage to keep the knowledge of who’s who out of the public and to figure it out for themselves. That way, they will almost always be ahead when it comes to information about the game's makeup.

That being said, the opposite strategy for Town is even more powerful in theory. If PRs are aware of the value of being obscure and thus conceal themselves well, this is even more terrifying for Scum. Based on what happened this game though, I don’t think it is that easy for PR’s to conceal themselves; so in practice, I think the open strategy is the way for Town to go. The possibility of PR's playing in complete obscurity, however, further adds to the difficulty of this set up on Scum's end.

I do think there is a way to balance this setup though. @Bessie, early on, you asked Peaceful Whale (?) what sort of PRs could be given to scum. I think a Sanity Investigator or a 1-shot Janitor or a Framer would be a great addition to the setup.


@Laser
Spoiler:
You were right about my scum slip D2. As soon as I made my post, I realized my mistake. You almost had me!!!

I think you have the potential to become a very strong Town player. There are two things I think you should work on:

1. Defend yourself! The reason you are seen as scummy isn't because your reads change (as you speculated upon in Gojoe) but because you do not give enough mind to refuting the points made against you. The game of Mafia, for Town, is about coming to a common understanding between each other. It is as important to relieve other's suspicion of you as it is to find scum. Explaining away your discrepancies opens the door for your fellow Townies to pursue more fruitful avenues. Furthermore, not refuting the points against you allows for Scum to just sit on their read of you without challenge. Disproving, or at least having an explanation for the points made against you, forces scum to either change their read, come up with new reasoning, or reveal the nature of their agenda.

2. Give far more weight to your initial instincts. One thing I really like about your play is how willing you are to change your view. You seem to rely on the use of the multiple brains of the game to determine your reads, rather than just your own. I highly agree with this way of playing; however, I do not think you give enough credence to your own instincts, and are too influenced by how others read a situation. This makes it too easy for you to overthink a lose grasp on what is truly scummy. Over time, things become more capable of being span any direction. I guarantee that your impression in the first few pages will yield more accuracy than the average of your impressions taken over the course of the game. Do not disregard them so easily.

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LaserGuy
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:27 am UTC

Very well played, mafia. Outside of D1 you managed to keep us in a constant state of confusion that we never really were able to pull ourselves out of, faced with a very difficult setup.

Quick shout outs:
flicky - You played a solid game. It seemed like you were drowning a bit with the content in D2/D3 especially, but I thought when things slowed down in D4 and D5 your contributions were very good.

Peaceful Whale - Bad luck for you to get lynched D1 at the last minute. Your D1 content was quite remarkable for how you managed to leave so much confusion and false trails without ever really giving away your buddies at all.

somitomi - Pity you got sidetracked at it (so did everyone), since you were one of the few people to pick out the entire scumteam in your D1 reads. You have good instincts.

LaserGuy - We need to talk later about your Town game. It needs some work.

Hari Seldon - I tip my metaphorical hat to you. You played an excellent game. I feel like this is going to be like Sabrar in Crossover where I'm going to be vexed for weeks for not following up on some of the suspicions I had on you at various points in the game, but you are very poised and difficult to pin down.

You were right about my scum slip D2. As soon as I made my post, I realized my mistake. You almost had me!!!


:)
I don't think it was as close as that. Maybe if someone like BoomFrog had also caught it and was willing to throw is weight behind it, it would have amounted to something, but I think the context was ambiguous enough that you probably could have got away with it even if I had tried to make a bigger deal of it.

1. Defend yourself! The reason you are seen as scummy isn't because your reads change (as you speculated upon in Gojoe) but because you do not give enough mind to refuting the points made against you. The game of Mafia, for Town, is about coming to a common understanding between each other. It is as important to relieve other's suspicion of you as it is to find scum. Explaining away your discrepancies opens the door for your fellow Townies to pursue more fruitful avenues. Furthermore, not refuting the points against you allows for Scum to just sit on their read of you without challenge. Disproving, or at least having an explanation for the points made against you, forces scum to either change their read, come up with new reasoning, or reveal the nature of their agenda.


This has been something I've had difficulty with in previous games. I've never been quite able to figure out how to defend myself in such a way that doesn't come across as looking scummier. A lot of my problems were probably self-inflicted anyway because my D1 play was a little out there. Honestly, Town probably would have been better off had I been lynched D2 instead of Madge, and definitely D4 instead of jimbob as people wouldn't have been spending so much time trying to figure out how scummy LaserGuy fits into the overall pattern and may have explored other avenues.

2. Give far more weight to your initial instincts. One thing I really like about your play is how willing you are to change your view. You seem to rely on the use of the multiple brains of the game to determine your reads, rather than just your own. I highly agree with this way of playing; however, I do not think you give enough credence to your own instincts, and are too influenced by how others read a situation. This makes it too easy for you to overthink a lose grasp on what is truly scummy. Over time, things become more capable of being span any direction. I guarantee that your impression in the first few pages will yield more accuracy than the average of your impressions taken over the course of the game. Do not disregard them so easily.


I will keep this in mind. Thanks.

Vicarin - Sorry you got killed D1. You played a very solid Town game and I immensely enjoyed your commentary in the spoiler thread. I hope you play again.

Sabrar - I don't know that we've ever been on the same page in any game where we've both been Town. I think our thought processes and playstyles are just similar enough that we always end up getting in each other's way. I always enjoy playing with you though, even if I'm constantly griping at you.

jimbob - As usual, your reads were very solid and I need to learn to read you properly. Scum was apparently terrified of you the whole game.

BoomFrog - Woof!

moody - Sorry you had to sub out suddenly, hope everything is okay.

Madge - Pity you were hurt by your meta this game. I like that you aren't afraid to take big risks as far as your claim was concerned, even if it maybe didn't work out as well as you would have liked.

bessie - Sorry I gave you a rough time on this one. I was trying very hard not to push things too far this time with you, and I apologize if I did. I was genuinely surprised to find that you're Town this game, but I apparently just always find you scummy for one reason or another.

cemper - Very nicely played. Your fake Town slip D2 was brilliantly executed (I'm actually also glad that you did this as Town has been getting away with using the "player X didn't know Y about chat" thing for the past few games). Sorry that the content overload was a bit much for you this game, though I think you managed very well while you were around.

MoA - Thanks for subbing in. Would have liked to see more of you in the game, but you definitely jumped into one of the higher intensity games we've played recently, so I can certainly see how that would have been tough.

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flicky1991
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby flicky1991 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:41 am UTC

One more thing about this game - I was just slightly disappointed no-one called me "she" in it considering I changed my sig and posted in the pronoun thread before the game started. But since "he" is fine too I didn't bother mentioning it. :P
any pronouns
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Suzaku
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Suzaku » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:50 am UTC

"Good evening Randalsburg, here is the news.
After a long period of turmoil, the new mayor, Hari Seldon, and his goo..., um, right-hand man MasterofAll, have vowed to restore order and prosperity to our town.
And I, for one, welcome our new Mafia overlords. Good night.
Pronouns: he/him/his > they/them/their >> it/it/its
Time Zone: JST (UTC+9)
─────────────────────────
Some guy on the Internet wrote:The thing about the inevitable, it has a bad habit of actually happening.

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wam
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby wam » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:04 pm UTC

Glad you all enjoyed it. Sorry it was so rushed by me at the end. Went out for a birthday then got up very early today and have spent all day travelling !
Come join us playing mafia signup here

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bessie
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby bessie » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:46 am UTC

Congratulations scum on an excellent game!

Shout outs!

moody7277- Hope everything is OK, sorry you had to drop out, you’re one of my favorite people to play with because I know I will always have a lynch target. :P

flicky1991- Pretty bird of xkcd, sorry about the content overload, I know this was not you signed up for. Keep checking back, perhaps someday someone will run an actual newbie game or a turbo, and you can give mafia another try. Your final pair analysis here was quite well done. I would like to play with you again someday.

Peaceful Whale- Do not feel bad about the guilt trip post, it was a very good play, but guilt was not the reason I wanted to keep you alive for one more day. I did think you were scum, but I wanted to give you one full cycle to play. You get lynched so often and I thought one cycle of mentoring in scum chat would benefit you as a player for future games, and this was supposed to be a newbie game anyway (there were other reasons but no one else agrees with me so whatever).

somitomi- You are becoming quite a good player, I am quite impressed that you did not back down from my hammering. I look forward to playing with you again.

MasterOfAll- I sincerely hope that what you said at the end of this post was just some brilliant manipulative scum talk, because I was quite saddened that you felt the game had become a chore. I really liked your content, as it was a fresh perspective unburdened by the years of meta that some of us use on each other. Please consider signing up for another game, perhaps you will have more fun playing from the beginning instead of replacing.

Vicarin- I have great hopes for you Vicarin. :D Seeing your enthusiasm in continuing to follow the game and post in the Gojoe thread even after you were dead inspired me through some difficult days.

cemper93- You and I have unfinished business after this. Get back in here and sign up for another game. :twisted:

LaserGuy- I think perhaps you and I would make a really good team if we could only get town reads on each other, which I don’t think has ever happened. Almost… I was going to switch my final vote to MoA because I couldn’t reconcile you as scum with the cautious N3 non-kill. And LaserGuy, I do not mind being read as scum, as long as it is a real read and not a meta read, and I appreciate that you are always conscious to build an actual case and not make a lazy meta read on me. I feel like I have more to say to you, but it’s not all coming to me right now. :|

Hari Seldon- I was so excited to see your name on the sign up list. :D Did you notice a shift in my thoughts on you on D5? I think I was almost there and may have figured it out if I had one more RL day, maybe. Is that why you asked me my thoughts on cemper/MoA (hmm, why wasn’t I suspicious that you asked me about cemper twice, here and here)? If yes that was a brilliant move, as I spent Sunday evening rereading cemper, MoA, and LaserGuy (for Sabrar), and never had a chance to fully digest your weekend content. I can’t wait to play with you again!

jimbobmacdoodle- I feel I should have known you better than to misread you like I did. jimbob, I did spend time Saturday reading your interactions with Hari, but you both made good points and I just didn’t put it all together in time, I should have known to go all the way back to your D1 scum reads. :? Adding this to my jimbob-meta notes, last updated here.

Madge- I would apologize again, but I already know you understand. Do not ever change, and if anyone tries to make you, tell them to go fuck themselves. Then send them to me so that I can do the same.

BoomFrog- My nemesis and mentor, my woof and my woof woof, the man who has occupied too many of my thoughts in this past month. I don’t ever want to be able to read you correctly, reading you wrong is much too fun. Still smitten. <3

Sabrar- As usual, I have thoughts but not the words to articulate them. Paranoid android, I should be pleased that you weren’t quite sure about me on D5, I am concerned that I can never fool you again. :wink: Still I think you will always read me correctly in the end, you are the one who will see how it really must be to be like me, to see like me.

Most important shout out- thank you wam and Suzaku for the very well-run game, and for your excellent modding.

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Hari Seldon
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby Hari Seldon » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:03 pm UTC

bessie wrote:Hari Seldon- I was so excited to see your name on the sign up list. :D Did you notice a shift in my thoughts on you on D5? I think I was almost there and may have figured it out if I had one more RL day, maybe. Is that why you asked me my thoughts on cemper/MoA (hmm, why wasn’t I suspicious that you asked me about cemper twice, here and here)? If yes that was a brilliant move, as I spent Sunday evening rereading cemper, MoA, and LaserGuy (for Sabrar), and never had a chance to fully digest your weekend content. I can’t wait to play with you again!


This is what I sent MoA at the start of the day:
I have to distance you here as it is the only conclusion that Town Hari should come to. I also think it is likely that Bessie will come to the same conclusion, and I want to get out ahead of her. I am hopeful that we will end the day with a Laser or Flicky lynch.


I felt you were already beginning to piece together Town Jim = Scum Hari near the end of D4, because of these two posts:
I’m willing to reevaluate on D5 after we see some flips.

As previously stated, I would be willing to reevaluate him on D5 but I'm currently pretty solid on him.


So I was hoping, by my MoA push, to reinforce the idea that the only person I could be Scum with was Flicky. (I also avoided interacting with Flicky the entire game for this purpose). Since you were already suspicious of Flicky, I felt that if you did come to the conclusion of Flicky + Hari, that you (and Laser) would have voted Flicky foremost.

I look forward to playing again as well! I am back to work this week, but I will certainly return during my next block of free time.

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BoomFrog
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Re: Newbie New Year Mafia - D5

Postby BoomFrog » Tue May 22, 2018 7:15 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:This has been something I've had difficulty with in previous games. I've never been quite able to figure out how to defend myself in such a way that doesn't come across as looking scummier.

This is the problem. Town can have the conviction that whatever the do it is townie, because they are actually townie. Defend yourself with gusto and transparency and don't worry about if it makes you sound scummy. Not being self-conscious about seeming scummy is a townie thing to do.

I only had Laser and Jim as scum by PoE. When I found out Hari was experienced I really should have reevaluated a lot more then I did.

(Yes I am still obsessing about a game that ended 4 months ago. Why do you ask?)
"Everything I need to know about parenting I learned from cooking. Don't be afraid to experiment, and eat your mistakes." - Cronos


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