Secret Santa 2017 Endgame - Merry Christmas

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Sabrar
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:49 pm UTC

EBWOP (on computer):

I AM THE DAY-VIG

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby somitomi » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:03 pm UTC

Vote jimbob
His name reminds me of this and it's too distracting...
Sabrar wrote:I claim cult. :D

Sabrar wrote:I finally get to play Jester. :)

Sabrar wrote:I AM THE DAY-VIG

What the hell are you?
—◯-◯

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:14 pm UTC

I'm a fluffy puppy.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:43 pm UTC

A fluffy puppy who is lonely.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby plytho » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:45 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:EBWOP (on computer):

I AM THE DAY-VIG


I was expecting I am the day-vig

Sabrar's behavior is confusing.

I think jimbob's setup spec makes sense.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: 8 town meanwhile feels a little too town-favouring, unless scum has significantly more powerful abilities than town.
roles were randomly distributed regardless of alignment, there was no balancing based on powers.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby wam » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:51 pm UTC

Yeah no idea what sabrar is up too. Going to file it under ignore for now.

I agree with the setup spec although I would look at two Indies. 2-1-1-6. With one Indy being anti town and another closer to town. I.e a jester and a survivor.

I doubt we have a sk in the game. Well more accurately in this game I doubt we have two faction kills a night. But we wrote the roles so who knows.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:03 pm UTC

Hands up all those who read the 'Sample Scum role PM' in the OP. Now keep your hands up if you still want to pretend that you are not sure on how many scum is in the game. We have some volunteers ladies and gentlemen!

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby plytho » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:05 pm UTC

Yeah, SK doesn't really make sense unless someone submitted an amazing variation that convinced the mods to keep it.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby wam » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:16 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:Hands up all those who read the 'Sample Scum role PM' in the OP. Now keep your hands up if you still want to pretend that you are not sure on how many scum is in the game. We have some volunteers ladies and gentlemen!


I disagree it's that definitive . If I was a mod and wanted to mess with the players I would.write a role pm like that and have 3 scum. But as we have said it's 90% certain to be 2 anyway.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby wam » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:16 pm UTC

plytho wrote:Yeah, SK doesn't really make sense unless someone submitted an amazing variation that convinced the mods to keep it.


But even that doesn't work as all roles were meant to be playable as all alignments.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby plytho » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:38 pm UTC

Right, I tend to confuse alignment and role with indies.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby moody7277 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:39 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:10 man game probably means two scum plus one anti-town indie


Based on last game, I was also leaning toward 7/2/1. SK would also seem to be ruled out by your next statement (mislynch, mafia kill, and SK killing town would also be MYLO D2). Only thing I can think of that fits would be a lyncher (jealous elf maybe?)
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Re: Secret Santa Pregame - Carol of the Elves

Postby Liri » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:13 am UTC

moody7277 wrote:Vote: Liri

This is your official "Welcome to forum mafia" random vote.

Thank you! :D

(what is an SK?)
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby wam » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:19 am UTC

Serial killer.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby bessie » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:37 am UTC

Welcome Liri! If you have any general mafia gameplay questions feel free to ask in thread, and someone will probably answer them truthfully.

Ok, no suspicious confirmation posts. Rule clarifications, availability are acceptable topics, as they contain no game content. Sabrar’s enthusiasm has already been noted.

Setup, 7-2-1 or 6-2-1-1. From past experience I expect there to be a lot of superpowered roles, and we are a forum full of creative people.

wam wrote:vote Bessie for taking even longer than me to confirm
wam wrote: And I realised that Bessie had confirmed but I missed it due to an avatar change. So let's leave my vote on Bessie, new avatars new alignment.
wam wrote:Everyone has a meta read on Bessie being town.
And do you have a town read on me too wam? Because it seems like you’re already digging for reasons to keep your vote on me.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:By the way, if anybody has a day vig, they definitely should use it on Sabrar now. He's way too excited for this game.
What about Madge? She was not only the first poster, she claimed to be excited. Of course her content since has been a little light for someone “so excited!”

Ok, I’m trying to decide if Sabrar has some weird posting restriction or if he is just that wound up from watching and not playing the last game. Or if he really is a puppy. :)

wam wrote: I doubt we have a sk in the game. Well more accurately in this game I doubt we have two faction kills a night. But we wrote the roles so who knows.
We writing the roles shouldn’t have any effect on the number of factions or faction kills in the game. FoS wam.

plytho wrote:Yeah, SK doesn't really make sense unless someone submitted an amazing variation that convinced the mods to keep it.
LaserGuy wrote:1. Roles should be playable by any faction
Hmm, you must have read the rule when you submitted a role. FoS plytho.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:11 am UTC

plytho wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: 8 town meanwhile feels a little too town-favouring, unless scum has significantly more powerful abilities than town.
roles were randomly distributed regardless of alignment, there was no balancing based on powers.
Incorrect. Although roles were randomly assigned, LaserGuy also said that they'd try to balance:
LaserGuy wrote:We'll do our best to balance, but no guarantees.
I take that to mean that abilities would have been toned up/down based on who they were assigned to, but being non-standard, it can be quite hard to get the balance right due to player interactions, so presumably hence the later comment. For example, I doubt that if two regular vigilantes had been submitted that the mods would have let them both appear in the hands of scum without some modification.

Bessie, Sabrar's comments contrast with Madge's apparent enthusiasm because of his volume of posts. I don't understand what he's doing, and it doesn't fit my memory of Sabrar's usual early D1 style. That being said, it's hardly indicative of any particular alignment right now, and is likely just an attempt to stir up content.

@Sabrar, are you willing to give us a serious answer explaining your current behaviour?
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:13 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@Sabrar, are you willing to give us a serious answer explaining your current behaviour?
I must have missed a serious question (other than a blatant rolefishing by somitomi).

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:28 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@Sabrar, are you willing to give us a serious answer explaining your current behaviour?
I must have missed a serious question (other than a blatant rolefishing by somitomi).
Let me rephrase that: why are you acting so weird?
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:42 am UTC

a) I missed playing
b) it's fun
c) meta-reasons
d) other meta-reasons
e) because of my role

Take your pick. Hint: it's all of them.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Madge » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:43 am UTC

I'm sick so give me a day or two to recover.

I'm trying to reboot my meta so I am going to have to think of something to say d1 apart from dropping hints based on my role :lol: which is harder than you'd think.

I like enthusiasm sabrar. More of this.

I agree abilities would be modified slightly for balance and expect two mafia. I think there's a chance that they'll have something useless to them such as a cop power and it would be kept as is. A good fake claim for sure.

Town roles, where I modded last year there was like three roleblocker roles so I think if you act scummy you'll be roleblocked probably :lol:
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:03 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:8 town meanwhile feels a little too town-favouring, unless scum has significantly more powerful abilities than town.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Incorrect. Although roles were randomly assigned, LaserGuy also said that they'd try to balance:
So you know roles are randomly assigned (and obviously this would come after setup was determined) but still speculate on scum possibly having more powerful abilities and it having an influence on the setup. How's that?

@bessie: I know you have copious notes about other players saved down. Do you also keep notes on yourself?

@moody: it's been more than a day. Where's your town-to-scum list? :lol:

@Madge: get better soon!

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby plytho » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:11 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
plytho wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: 8 town meanwhile feels a little too town-favouring, unless scum has significantly more powerful abilities than town.
roles were randomly distributed regardless of alignment, there was no balancing based on powers.
Incorrect. Although roles were randomly assigned, LaserGuy also said that they'd try to balance:
LaserGuy wrote:We'll do our best to balance, but no guarantees.
I take that to mean that abilities would have been toned up/down based on who they were assigned to, but being non-standard, it can be quite hard to get the balance right due to player interactions, so presumably hence the later comment. For example, I doubt that if two regular vigilantes had been submitted that the mods would have let them both appear in the hands of scum without some modification.
Yeah I'm aware that the mods twerked some roles for balance. I'm saying I don't think the mods came up with 8 townies + 2 significantly stronger scum first, then randomly distributed the roles and then twerked the scum powers to be significantly more powerful.

I think the mods started with balanced numbers (7-2-1 or 6-2-1-1), then distributed the roles and then twerked for balance.
Madge wrote:I think there's a chance that they'll have something useless to them such as a cop power and it would be kept as is. A good fake claim for sure.
Not really a good fake claim with randomized roles.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Madge » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:32 pm UTC

Yeah but it's a nice townie role to have rather than say a roleblocker or a redirector that would make people suspicious of what they could do as mischief, I don't know, I think when people claim their roles the "danger" of the role comes into it. Misnomer's smalltown games are an extreme example, since everyone knows everyone's roles, town chooses their daykill and scum chooses their nightkill accordingly.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Madge » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:33 pm UTC

@sabrar don't worry about me i'm fine it's just a mild cold. i'll be able to play mafia just fine, just wanted to make sure people knew to excuse any brain farts
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby moody7277 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:23 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:@moody: it's been more than a day. Where's your town-to-scum list? :lol:


So, besides starting at slightly scummy, I'm also known for snap judgement reads lists? Very interesting[/Rowan&Matin]

-Town-
bessie-no surprise here

jimbob
Madge
Liri
wam
plytho
-Neutral-
somitomi
Sabrar-acting like a hyperactive kid. anything weird is suspicious until otherwise explained
Maven89



-Scum-


Unvote
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:40 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:8 town meanwhile feels a little too town-favouring, unless scum has significantly more powerful abilities than town.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Incorrect. Although roles were randomly assigned, LaserGuy also said that they'd try to balance:
So you know roles are randomly assigned (and obviously this would come after setup was determined) but still speculate on scum possibly having more powerful abilities and it having an influence on the setup. How's that?
I'm not sure I understand the issue. Obviously, LaserGuy/PW wouldn't know exactly what powers would end up in scum hands, based on the submission, but I'm pretty sure they'd modify them slightly to fit their setup, once they'd been assigned out. For a simple example case:
1) Mods decide they want an 8-2 setup.
2) All players submit roles that are roughly equal in power, regardless of alignment.
3) Mods decide that this would be too town favouring, so increase the power of scum by modifying the roles they receive AFTER they have received them.
Therefore, if there are 8 town, scum are likely to have more powerful abilities. I think some/all balancing changes to roles that were made would have been made after faction assignments.
An example from the above is that mods go with 6-2-1-1, and the 2 scum end up as both being unrestricted, unredirectable strongman ninja vigilantes, giving scum 3 kills a night. That would require some balancing as well, but in the other direction.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:48 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:So, besides starting at slightly scummy, I'm also known for snap judgement reads lists?

Yes. Definitely. Also brought it up in previous game and you didn't complain then (even though you were scum).

@jimbob: ok, I can accept that. I would think that balancing the powers would be the second step, after determining the setup but before assigning alignments. That's why there's less guarantee of balance.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Liri » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:56 pm UTC

Heh! I keep forgetting that I'm playing as I'm reading all this.

From reading two previous games, now, it looked like giving ranked town->scum lists was vaguely scummy. Easy for the baddies to put each other on the slightly town side of the median and skim by to an extent. I didn't keep detailed notes of who did it so I could be totally talking out of my ass.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:59 pm UTC

Okay, Liri is town. Nice, nice. Just need 3 more reads and we can switch to PoE.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby wam » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:16 pm UTC

@Bessie

Was trying to see if any scum would get keen on a Bessie lynch.

unvote

@Liri

It is easy for that to happen but the lists themselves are not inherently scummy and give us information we need going forward.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:27 pm UTC

wam wrote:Was trying to see if any scum would get keen on a Bessie lynch.
Transparent post hoc justification.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby wam » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:32 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
wam wrote:Was trying to see if any scum would get keen on a Bessie lynch.
Transparent post hoc justification.


Tbh I am so jet lagged it took me 3 goes to work out what you had said.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Madge » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:47 pm UTC

It's ok liri, I don't find reads lists useful in my own personal process of elimination either so I avoid doing them too. I think some of our better players (ie everyone except me) have useful game thoughts and knowledge that can be shared succinctly by such a list, so I don't discont them entirely, and I will make them if I am told to or if I find it organisés my thoughts well. I don't know if if you could call then scummy though, I like to read lists from players I admire after they flip town, gives me good townie opinions to consider.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:59 pm UTC

wam wrote:Tbh I am so jet lagged it took me 3 goes to work out what you had said.
It took me 3 tries to understand why. :D

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:34 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:-Town-
bessie-no surprise here

jimbob
Madge
Liri
wam
plytho
-Neutral-
somitomi
Sabrar-acting like a hyperactive kid. anything weird is suspicious until otherwise explained
Maven89



-Scum-

Why are somitomi and Liri so far apart, with the neutral line between them? They had the same content when you posted.
Why is bessie so high? I doubt you have the same read as me.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby plytho » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:03 pm UTC

That's a more familiar side of Sabrar :D

I think I understand your read on Liri, but how do you have a town read on bessie?
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:04 pm UTC

Very secret meta-reason. :D

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:06 pm UTC

Of course I might be wrong about it but for now I trust it.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby moody7277 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:56 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:Why are somitomi and Liri so far apart, with the neutral line between them? They had the same content when you posted.
Why is bessie so high? I doubt you have the same read as me.


somitomi

post 1: confirm and RL issues
post 2: RV jimbob, confused by Sabrar

Liri

post 1: confirm and RL issues
post 2: response to my RV
my snap "reads" here
post 3: opinion that lists may be scummy.

Here I thought it was a bit of hyperbole when you said the same content when it turns out to be exactly the case! Would you believe a bit of pro-townie newbie bias? Really you could throw a blanket over everyone between those two; since I was doing the whitespace thing I should have put a line between Madge and Liri. As far as bessie goes, bessie is bessie. I hope it's going to look different when she's scum again (if not now), but I don't have anything to base that on right now.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:34 pm UTC

Unvote

(no reason to keep that joke vote around any more)

Current loose thoughts on everyone based on early content, in no particular order:

bessie - showing her usual aggressive approach with her first post with any real content. 2 FoSes, and a few other comments that back this up. Nothing different from her usual self so far that I can see. As town as she always is.

@Liri - what gender pronouns do you prefer? Please add them in this thread. I'm going to use he for now, apologies if I'm wrong!

Liri - likely town. Like plytho, I think I see why Sabrar has this read, and presumably it's the same reason for me, assuming it matches: he's indicating attempts to scum-hunt with his recent post, but getting it slightly wrong. Ordered town-scum lists aren't inherently scummy - perma-town!bessie is one of the chief proponents of them. If he were being coached by a team-mate, he'd likely not have made that sort of statement, since I'd expect him to double-check his "suspicions" with his team-mate before posting. Also, forgetting being in the game is unlikely to happen to a scum player who has chat, I believe.

Madge - This is an interesting comment:
Madge wrote:I'm trying to reboot my meta so I am going to have to think of something to say d1 apart from dropping hints based on my role :lol: which is harder than you'd think.
This is a good way for scum!Madge, who has recently been made aware that her scum-meta is obvious, to try and cover any apparent meta-scum-pings she sets off. Everything else so far is just fluff about roles and general game-play strategy. Hardly the only one culpable of this, of course, given the early state of the game, but still. Slightly scummy for now anyway.

Maven - lurky mc-lurker.

moody - shares my confusion about Sabrar's early play. Hasn't really put much thought into possible indies (we've seen some far more elaborate indies recently, and yet his only proposal is lyncher). I'm pretty sure his ordered list is intended as a semi-joke-response to Sabrar's joke(?) prod. I am curious as to his choice of order. Even his explanation for his somitomi/Liri positions seems weird - he doesn't actually say why he placed them there. Slightly scummy, although with the caveat, that I've seen town!moody play this way too.

@moody - could you explain any of your reasoning for anybody else, please. For example, why am I and Madge at the townie end of the neutral pile?

plytho - mostly setup discussion, along with confusion about Sabrar, and one reasonable question about Sabrar's read on bessie. Hasn't got into a heated discussion with bessie yet about anything (clearly must be buddies with her :P ). Slight town lean.

Sabrar - as I've mentioned before, I too don't understand his play. It's weird and I'm trying to figure out if he's got something to hide, that he's trying to distract us from by being so weird. I don't really have a good idea of what that could be. For this to be scum!Sabrar would imply that he's not afraid of seeking attention, but as he is one of the high-volume posters, he's always going to be pretty centre-of-attention anyway. More likely, he's just doing it to try to draw reactions out of us, whilst waiting for useful bits of content that he can think of. He has shown that he is able to be serious on occasions during the game. For example, his post about reading the scum sample role PM, and it's indication of scum-count, his questioning of me over my setup speculation, and his prodding of moody over his ordering of Liri and somitomi. Overall, I think that pushes him town-side of the neutral line, but I also have a gut feel that he could be indie, due to his other weird behaviour, although I cannot really place what his win condition would be (I don't believe jester, for example, and there's no motivation for lyncher to act that way either).

somitomi - insufficient data to make a real read, although is paying enough attention to see that Sabrar has posted contradictory claims so far (admittedly likely all jokes).

wam - quite a few posts so far, but mostly is discussing setup, which I am leaning towards putting at null these days, as long as they don't use as a cover for actual content later on in D1. In wam's case, there are quite a few posts about the topic, and nothing much else, which I'd normally put as slightly scummy given the number of posts, but it is still early, and he has claimed RL reasons for the first day or so. I don't have any issues with his "post hoc" justification of his random vote, I'm assuming it was intended to be as light-hearted as I read bessie's comment about it. Neutral, pending more content.
BlitzGirl the Primordial
matthewglen wrote:Cueball looks concerned.

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