Smalltown Werewolf PYP - F is for Finished!

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Sungura
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Sungura » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:44 am UTC

Not that odd that I wrote it out before getting to the very last scentence. And still most the ideas are good it's just a few I suggested alignments for that bit is bogus. But if missing the last line is so horrible than so are the folks who missed my last line where I recanted alignment spec. ;) can't have it both ways.

As for opus no it clearly isn't a matter of us dissagreeing because opus themself said they don't like the gambit. So we AGREE on that. It is their methodology of whishywashy and first it's bad and second it's maybe okay so fine and then noooo it's def bad. That kind of behavior of standing the fence line is scummy. Trying to look good no matter which camp "wins". Changing minds is fine, bouncing around looks odd.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Van » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:59 am UTC

Sweet zombie jesus this thread is moving fast.

I've been pondering my role a lot, because it's pretty unique and I'm not really sure how to use it. Technically, it can function like a multi-day roleblock on an unlimited number of targets, which .. might be useful? It can also make dangerous/less useful roles better.

People who might be useful to target:
Gary/Sabrar - has no abilities until D4
Iggy/Snark - has a vote adjuster
Karl/Znirk - removes protections. This is not really a pro-town power.
Perry/ConMan - secret role. I'm paranoid, okay? Then again, he might have a useful power and I'm willing to open Pandora's box :D
Ulysses/Opus - DIVE is really not useful for a town player. If he's pro town and uses it to avoid being lynched, he's definitely getting lynched the next day..
Xela/Diemo - could prevent unblockable kill from being a thing

Here's my worry: the aliens are probably the scariest thing going on here, and (I think someone already said this) the sheer volume of kills in this game makes it pretty likely that they will get taken out by random fire. If I run around making doctors everywhere, the kills could get blocked by well meaning townies, or worse, I could make a doctor out of a scum. Or a doctor out of an alien. Essentially, if I actually make anyone a doctor (but especially if I make more than one), it becomes extremely unsafe to vote or discuss how NKs are used. On the other hand, if I could get the masons as doctors or something ... it'd be pretty unlikely we'd lose, I think.

My conclusion: my role is probably too dangerous to really use to make doctors :cry:. However:
Snark wrote:Heather/Van - Neat but why would you over select Nurse over Doctor?
Because a nurse is powerless (unless a doctor dies. But if I don't make any doctors..). Essentially, I can permanently roleblock someone. Until I bite the dust, anyway. My current thought: Nurse-ize suspected jesters, players with anti-town powers, or people who are just generally scummy. Sound reasonable?

Random further thoughts:
Voting for Oscar/RR is scummy unless we have reason to believe RR is an alien. Any lone wolves should be on board with getting rid of the aliens, because it isn't possible for them to win before D6 (unless my math is off). Similar logic for the werewolves, though I think they could win before D6 if the stars aligned for them?

frogman wrote:However, there's no information about Suzaku's role and I don't want to give a scum team an extra kill. Unless there are any reasonable objections by the next time I post, I'm going to use my research proposal to investigate Suzaku and hope that my tenure committee is generous.

I don't think that we're past the point of no return on this one. I advise no one else to vote Suzaku today unless their intention is to lynch.
I kind of disagree with this for the reasons above. Aliens gotta be priority #1. I can see the argument, though: I know I'm not an alien and don't really want to risk Suzaku targeting me. On the flipside, more people voting him makes it more likely that scum will have to go along with the vote. I do agree that you should target Suzuku or an information role today, though. I'm not sure it's a good idea to announce who you are targeting, though.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby frogman » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:11 am UTC

My target is public.
yeah yeah yeah

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Van » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:16 am UTC

Apparently "in-thread" is important and something I should not have glossed over. My bad.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Vytron » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:35 am UTC

Yes, I meant "Oscar" not "Opus."

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby ConMan » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:34 am UTC

Van wrote:Sweet zombie jesus this thread is moving fast.
Perry/ConMan - secret role. I'm paranoid, okay? Then again, he might have a useful power and I'm willing to open Pandora's box :D

I can understand what you're getting at, but I'm sure you can find someone better. I mean, I'd love to be a doctor (or even better, The Doctor, who I'd probably dress as for Halloween if it were a bigger thing around here) and I guess I could live with being a nurse, but Perry the Perfectly Ordinary Nurse doesn't really have that ring about it, if you get me.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby mpolo » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:10 am UTC

Vote: Suzaku

Unvote

Probably should have done that right away. Sungura's scumdar is usually so good that I almost want to follow her on the Opus vote; however, it is a relatively small thing, and I'd like to see how Opus deals with the vote on him.

Lawrencelot's blocking of a (potential) vig kill without discussion is also troubling.

I'm not getting the vote for Snark for not having a vote and trying to participate as best he can. Would you rather he spent the whole day lurking because he can't vote?
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Sabrar » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:00 am UTC

I've already expressed my disapproval of doing things prematurely, the voting/unvoting of Suzaku without proper discussion first falls in the same category. By my count 11 players did this so far and I think it's fair to say that there are both werevolves and townies among them, so we can't use this as scum-tell.
The idea was first proposed by SDK who asked Suzaku a silly question. However the actual train was started by Vytron who did not even read the alignment rules properly, who knows what else he might have missed. While both of those look suspicious to me I can't accuse any of them in good conscience yet but I'll keep my eyes on them.
I agree with Sungura, we should not bow to peer pressure and stop voting/unvoting Suzaku for the moment.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby faubiguy » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:04 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:I think it's fair to say that there are both werevolves and townies among them.

I notice that you didn't mention the aliens here. It's possible you just didn't think about it, but it's also possible it's because you're an alien and knew that none of your partners had done so.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Sabrar » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:12 am UTC

faubiguy wrote:
Sabrar wrote:I think it's fair to say that there are both werevolves and townies among them.

I notice that you didn't mention the aliens here. It's possible you just didn't think about it, but it's also possible it's because you're an alien and knew that none of your partners had done so.

I considered writing werevolves/aliens, however with possibly only 2 aliens in the mix it would not have qualified as 'fair to say'. Sorry, occupational hazard.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:39 am UTC

Obviously potentially wine, but I could see there being no aliens on the Suzaku vote train, and probably not any survivors or jesters either. All of these want to avoid being killed (at least at night), so in the current state I wouldn't be surprised that they're happily avoiding becoming potential targets. That's not to say that avoiding the train at the moment is necessarily scummy, as I can see the point Sungura et al are making, even if I don't completely agree with it.

I'll hopefully have some time this evening to put down some more coherent thoughts, so I can make a better judgement on people.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Opus_723 » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:41 am UTC

mpolo wrote:Vote: Suzaku

Unvote

Probably should have done that right away. Sungura's scumdar is usually so good that I almost want to follow her on the Opus vote; however, it is a relatively small thing, and I'd like to see how Opus deals with the vote on him.


I'm not thrilled obviously, since I want to move on to hunting aliens, but I get it. I'm kind of awkwardly pushing a plan while complaining about it the whole way, which isn't a fun place to be. I don't think I've been 'wishy-washy' though. I wanted to delay this whole thing, but now it's just a mess and I'm looking for the best way to clean it up. Sungura doesn't have to agree with me, but I think it's the way to go.

mpolo wrote:I'm not getting the vote for Snark for not having a vote and trying to participate as best he can. Would you rather he spent the whole day lurking because he can't vote?


The Snark vote was just a misunderstanding, which is why I unvoted immediately. I thought he was voting on Suzaku's kill while purposefully keeping himself unkillable, which I've noted is a great thing for scum to do right now. But I reread his role and realized that he can't make himself killable today, so it doesn't bother me so much. I would point out, though, that he can still be helpful even without voting.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Znirk » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:32 am UTC

Just quickly noting that I've officially lost the thread on this game. It'll be another 12 to 24 hours before I can do anything resembling useful around here.

(Are mafiwolf games generally this hectic, or is this a function of crowd size?)

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:34 am UTC

Znirk wrote:Just quickly noting that I've officially lost the thread on this game. It'll be another 12 to 24 hours before I can do anything resembling useful around here.

(Are mafiwolf games generally this hectic, or is this a function of crowd size?)

I've not found it quite such a problem in my other game, so I think size is a factor. Also, a completely open setup where we know who is who is probably a major factor, as there is a lot more to discuss D1 compared with typical games.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby patzer » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:35 am UTC

It's a function of crowd size.
There are 26 of us; it's bound to be hectic.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Misnomer » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:09 pm UTC

N.B. - When voting, only the player's username is required.


Votals:

SDK (1): Djehutynakht
ConMan (1): dimochka
Djehutynakht (1): SDK
Snark (1): SirGabriel
Lawrencelot (3): ConMan, patzer, Vytron
Opus_723 (1): Sungura

Not voting (17): moody7277, cruicalityfactor, Dr Ug, Sabrar, Van, jimbobmacdoodle, znirk, YOLOSWAG, Faubiguy, roadierich, ConMan, mpolo, Suzaku, Frogman, Opus_723, Diemo, weiyaoli

Game Status:
Snark is currently voteless.
6 Tenure Committee members are alive.
13 votes required to majority lynch.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Suzaku » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:39 pm UTC

Misnomer wrote:N.B. - When voting, only the player's username is required.

Are votes submitted for the character/role name valid?

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Misnomer » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:08 pm UTC

Suzaku wrote:
Misnomer wrote:N.B. - When voting, only the player's username is required.

Are votes submitted for the character/role name valid?
As a general rule, I will interpret these as votes for the player with that role. However, as with failures to unvote before revoting and failures to make the vote clear and on a new line, the mod bears no responsibility if he should accidentally pass over or fail to properly account for said vote.

In short, I've already managed to miscount the votes once this game - anything that reduces the chance of me making further mistakes is greatly appreciated. :P
moody7277 wrote:The role of SDK in this game will be played by Misnomer. [/soapopera]

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby weiyaoli » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:20 pm UTC

Hey, sorry for letting the thread slip away from me - came back to see tons of pages!

I'll have something more to contribute later this weekend, been fairly busy so far this week.
And you thought I was crazy...

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:39 pm UTC

^

Ditto. See y'all this weekend.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby crucialityfactor » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:49 pm UTC

I'm going to be the opposite. I will be traveling this weekend and probably won't be able to respond until Tuesday. Depending on how much things heat up that means I might or might not miss the end of the day. I'll try to make a good contribution today and will probably put in my investigation today as well.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Lawrencelot » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:04 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:Wait, does this mean that if we don't ask you directly, you're content to just sit around and not explain yourself?

I honestly thought it was an obvious course of action after reading the roles. Not explaining myself also helps me look at the behaviour: people who ask questions are more often town, people who vote first as well, while people who blindly follow are more scummy. I will analyse this when I have the time, but other people are free to analyse the bandwagon on me from their point of view.

Sabrar wrote:By your own words the above cannot be true if you're town. If you conclude that it's beneficial for Oscar to use his kill if he's town, then that must mean that it's beneficial to the Town as a whole and by extension to you as well. Furthermore you still did not explain why you hurried with your vote on Oscar, when there was time for more discussion and an informed decision later.

FoS: Lawrencelot

You're wrong. I don't know whether Oscar is town so I have to weigh the benefits of him killing while being town with the probability of him being town. Then it becomes beneficial to NOT kill from my point of view, and I had the ability to influence that so I did.
I indeed should have waited and discussed it, but it was obvious enough from my point of view even without discussion. That was a bit of arrogance on my part, especially since I did not fully consider the aliens. Even so, I still believe it was a good decision in hindsight (and there are several players who agree with this) and I will take a closer look at those who disagree with me.

Ok, let's take a look at the reactions on my vote on Oscar. Anyone can open this spoiler:
Spoiler:
-I vote and unvote Oscar with no explanation (page 4)
-Sabrar says we could have had more discussion. Looks town to me.
-Suzaku was ninja'd but seems more worried that Oscar didn't have a chance to post yet. I don't know how that would have mattered but ok, neutral.
-Snark fake-votes me without explanation. Looks town to me, he had no need to do that as scum.
-Diemo: first one to ask for an explanation. Looks town.
-I give my explanations.
-jimbobmacdoodle FOSes me, gets ninja'd by me, keeps the FOS. Takes a firm stance, looks town to me.
-Sabrar doesn't agree with my explanation, FOSes me. I think he's wrong, but it does look like he truly believes what he says and the post seems written from a town point of view.
-crucialityfactor is not sure what to think of me. This seems really scummy to me. He looks to be copying others but in a very careful way.
-SirGabriel is surprised to see a wagon on me since he said something about voting Oscar before me. Sabrar explains it's the 'not leaving room for discussion'. Both look town.
-moody IGMEOY's me. Neutral.
-ConMan thinks my vote on Oscar was 'cheap'. Thinks my action was not necessarily wrong but I should have awaited discussion. My action 'rubs him the wrong way'. I don't really like this post, but I think he's the first one to actually vote me? If my role was not known I would think of that as a town move, but with my anti-werewolf role I'm not so sure.
-patzer votes me because 'it seems like a good idea', and we don't need to worry about a hesitant jester. I'm a bit offended that he thinks I'm a jester, plus it's way better to lynch werewolves/aliens than jesters, and he knows my role so I'd think twice before voting me. Patzer is scummy.
-Vytron making a typo, says I voted Opus (probably meant Oscar), doesn't like the rest of my content, then votes me. Vytron, you'll have to do better than that, please read my role first. Very opportunistic post by Vytron here, just following the general feel of the town. Active lurking, doesn't look like the town Vytron I know.
-faubiguy and patzer correct Vytron, Vytron corrects himself.
-mpolo thinks my action is 'troubling'. Looks suspicious to me.

Others have ignored me, which would be scummy in a small game but in a large game like this I also don't react to everything, that would be madness.


Conclusion: in their interaction with me, these players look town to me: Sabrar, Snark, Diemo, jimbob, SirGabriel
These look scummy: crucialityfactor, ConMan, patzer, Vytron, mpolo
These look neutral: Suzaku, moody

I honestly can't react to other events unfortunately, I prefer to make detailed posts about 1 thing like this and then I'm out of time. I will answer specific questions to me though.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby dimochka » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:22 pm UTC

I'm catching up but my gut so far tells me sungura and snark are town, while moody/opus/vytron are not. Not all as one team.

Lawrencelot - I completely disagree with your original assessment. As town, this should NOT have been your call to make. I think you're probably town but you're acting independently from other town players which is not helpful. Jester play would make sense but is too obvious in my mind.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Sabrar » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:34 pm UTC

Interesting post by Lawrencelot, its tone and the admission of arrogance looks more townie to me than before.
However, these 2 parts
Lawrencelot wrote:I indeed should have waited and discussed it.

and
Lawrencelot wrote:Even so, I still believe it was a good decision in hindsight

continue the self-justification and directly contradict each other. As his analysis of the other players is based upon his opinion of being right, it seems to me that it's tainted by his arrogance and therefore cannot be trusted.

@Lawrencelot: how do you explain the contradiction noted above? Why do you still think that an early vote on roadierich could ever be more useful than meaningful discussion?

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Lawrencelot » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:40 pm UTC

Sabrar, the two quotes are not linked, you should read it like this:
I did not fully consider the aliens. Even so, I still believe it was a good decision in hindsight

I admit that I should have waited. But I still believe blocking roadierich's kill was the right course of action from my point of view.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby SirGabriel » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:31 pm UTC

I'm not sure what I think about Van's no-doctor plan. Obviously, town doctors would be good, and werewolf doctors or alien doctors would be bad. I don't think Van said anything about the other factions; it seems to me that making a druid or survivor a doctor would be neutral for town, as would giving that ability to a lone wolf (who would have no reason to use it). I have no clue what a jester-doctor or traitor-doctor would do with their ability. We don't seem to have a very good idea of how many of what faction there are, but it seems likely that town would significantly outnumber werewolves and aliens combined. On the one hand, assuming Van is town (and I doubt they would have suggested the no-doctor plan if they were werewolf or alien), we are more likely to turn a townie into a doctor than scum; on the other hand, a scum doctor may be more harmful than a town doctor is helpful.

Lawrencelot wrote:But I still believe blocking roadierich's kill was the right course of action from my point of view.

And I agree.

Unvote

Vote: Dr Ug

because he hasn't posted yet.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby moody7277 » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:34 pm UTC

Summary of the Suzaku issue:
SDK originally suggests that we vote/unvote Suzaku to activate him, did not do this in the same post.

People who have done so:
Vytron (with clarification on the upside of doing so)
Snark (would have done so, but voteless currently)
dimochka
znirk
Lawrencelot (after his deactivating Oscar)
SirGabriel
jimbob
cf
me
Opus (but with reservations)
patzer (after people started going against this)
mpolo (self-admittedly late)

Sungura then voices the downside, since we do not know Suzaku's alignment. Other people also concerned after her:
faubiguy
frogman
ConMan

My instinct is to treat this issue like volunteering for a lie detector, except with a bit more intensity because death. I figure that most of the people who voted/unvoted are town, but some scum may have decided to do so also as the odds are in their favor not to die while trying for townie points. Also, I figure that Sungura and faubiguy are likely town because of their counter-reactions. Scum might have decided later that the righteous indignation would be a good reason to refuse. One last bit, SDK never did so despite suggesting the excercise. If Suzaku is scum, I would consider that confirmation that SDK is also scum. Even if he were to vote/unvote now, I still would have a large suspicion on SDK.

Summary of my impressions from this issue:
townie: Vytron, Snark, dimochka, znirk, SirG, jimbob, cf, patzer, mpolo, Sungura, faubiguy
unsure: Opus, Suzaku, frogman
suspicious: Lawr, SDK, ConMan
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Sungura » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:40 pm UTC

dimochka wrote:I'm catching up but my gut so far tells me sungura and snark are town, while moody/opus/vytron are not. Not all as one team.

Vytron has been pinging me as well but I understand he always pings everyone so I have been holding off on that for the time being.

I am not a fan of the SDK/Suzaku link. The entire start of the day with the "Are you town?" question and reply to that seems setup. Linked players in this game have a higher chance of being scum/3rd party than town. That combined with the they've not jumped on the wagon they started is damning.

Opus I've made my case for and right now they are my top choice for a lynch, hence my vote. But IGMEO on these other players as well. In addition, DJ was pinging me earlier, and that is a huge power role for non-town to have. Jimbob is also pinging me, and again a really bad role to be anti-town. I typically have a hard time putting my finger on exactly why (people who used to play with me understand this) which is why my vote is currently on the one I actually have a case for on top of the pings. Day two I can do more analysis on these other players.

Ninja by Moody. Nothing more to add.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Djehutynakht » Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:19 pm UTC

Ive been fairly busy but let me see what I can do with regards to reading the thread and getting some input.

It's insane--26 people here.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby moody7277 » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:20 pm UTC

Sungura wrote:Ninja by Moody. Nothing more to add.


Not even to tell me if I'm full of crap? It's one of the bolder analyses I've made, and I am hoping for some impressions about it. Apparently the weekend can stop even this juggernaut.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby SDK » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:17 pm UTC

Misnomer wrote:
SDK wrote:Misnomer, could you please specify which anti-town win conditions will result in the game ending?

All anti-town win conditions will result in the game ending: for werewolves and lone wolves, they are required to eliminate all other factions/players. For aliens, the game ends with their victory at the end of day 6, should they remain alive.

Sorry, mispoke. What (if any) third party factions will result in the game ending?


Ugh, can you believe I typed that yesterday morning intending to finish this post? C'mon! I'm super busy. Be back when I can with some actual thoughts. Shutting down for now...
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Vytron » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:20 pm UTC

Unvote

I still think Lawrencelot is the most scummy player, but voting for him is useless if I'd want to hammer him.

Lawrencelot wrote:Vytron, you'll have to do better than that, please read my role first.


I read your role. So what? Misnormer made it clear the roles were handed out randomly, as a werewolf you'd want to stop the lone werewolf to kill peeps from your faction, and as a lone wolf you'd want to stop a werewolf to bite you. Or you could be an alien, or whatever.

Lawrencelot wrote:Very opportunistic post by Vytron here, just following the general feel of the town.


I would have posted my message directly after yours if I was online at the time. I can say that on meta, I've been busy, this game is proof and I don't think there's another instance where I mod a game and have my players waiting for so long (and no, I didn't create that game just to show how buys I was for this game :P )

Lawrencelot wrote:Active lurking, doesn't look like the town Vytron I know.


Two things here:

In the other games we've played the setup was closed, nobody knew my role, allowing me to use beer or whatever to attempt to make mafia target or not target me at night, and so on, and then I was dragged on to big discussions where people disagreed with me about it and that often got me mislynched. Here, everyone knows my power, nobody has really disagreed with me, so I usually get on the defensive side of things when I'm town, but here I don't have much to defend against.

And second, didn't you also wrong believe I was scum in those games? So "the Vytron you know" was a suspicious Vytron, if I'm suspicious now, how's that different?

To people suspecting me, who are my supposed scumbuddies? Because I've shown again and again that this is my behavior. AND this is my behavior because when I change it I get night-killed. So if it'd be interesting to know what alignment people think I have and with whom.

And about Sungura: Yes, she's a gream scumhunter, but it doesn't make her necessarily town for this game. Mainly, if she's an alien, she can still werewolfhunt and such. I definitively don't like the vibes of following everything she says, as she could easily build a reputation to catch scum on this game and avoid suspicion later on.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:36 pm UTC

Ok, my plan is to try and post twice this evening, first with a more detailed post on my thoughts of the different roles, how we should use them and who we need to worry about (from a role perspective). My second post will be a reads list, as much as I can manage.

Albert (moody7277) - Albert's role seems like quite a powerful investigative role, for later stages of the game. In particular, he could use it to pin down who killed who. If he is town, this is very useful. He is not likely to be much of a threat to aliens, unless we know that someone has been mind-controlled - we could then lynch that and have Albert investigate them. This would allow us to pin one alien down at least. He is obviously a big threat to werewolves or lone wolves. Those publicly with kills are likely to claim who they killed (some may lie occasionally of course, but this may be dangerous for them), so that means he can reliably target someone unclaimed and find out who killed them, thus in theory finding a werewolf or lone wolf. Werewolf!Albert will find it useful to pick out the lone wolves, but after that may struggle to remain hidden, unless he starts throwing fellow wolves under the bus. Lone wolf!Albert may be detectable by the fact that he keeps finding werewolves, and not lone wolves, but otherwise could be quite strong. I suspect he will end up getting killed early, because of these powers. I'm not sure other factions will find the role particularly useful, apart from possibly aliens, who could use it to distract kills away from them. Not sure of the usefulness of this power to third party factions.

Ok - I've spent way too much time on the first role! Guess I'm going to have to keep the rest somewhat shorter.

Bunny (sungura) - as I mentioned elsewhere, I'm not sure how useful a self-preservation power is to town, unless she is also a mason or lover. In scum hands, her ability to dodge things could be quite worrying, especially if we're looking at an impending alien invasion. Depending on the answer to the question below, I'd be particularly worried if Bunny is a faction with a night action (i.e. scum). The role would also be useful for jester!Bunny, druid!Bunny or survivor!Bunny, but not really something to bother town.

Can Bunny hide and still perform a faction ability at night?

Calvin (crucialityfactor) - given the number of scum in the game, I think this is a very useful role for town, as it's far more likely to pick up werewolves or aliens than masons or druids. This is significantly reduced in usefulness to town, if not town, but could still have some advantages, as the scum factions are likely to be most concerned about each other than about masons, I'd have thought. Third-party users are likely to simply claim no useful information in most cases (except maybe survivors, depending on the way they decide to lean), I reckon.

Darryl (Dr Ug) - a very powerful investigative role, in my opinion, as others have already identified. The use of Luna/Xela as fixed points or dead people, as fixed targets, should really help us track down scum groups. I'd expect scum!Darryl to try to spread misinformation amongst town, which would only be a problem to him if someone else gets a copy of his results, or if ever his claims don't match up, based on flips etc, so it would be irritating, but not too much of a concern. Not much to say about third party here, apart from jester!Darryl is likely to try to look like scum doing this.

Elmo (dimochka) - not likely to be all that helpful in picking up werewolves killing people or aliens mind-controlling them, since they are likely simply going to choose a different person for the action. Lone wolves may be worried about this, but may decide to withhold a kill if being voted for by Elmo. Elmo is more likely going to be useful to try and catch other players in a lie. Other factions!Elmo are either likely to either help town depending on their target and results, or potentially try to spread misinformation again.

Father Patrick (SirGabriel) - as town, I don't think this role is very useful. As scum, this role could be quite scary, since they are going to be impossible to detect and very hard to get any useful results out of investigations involving him. I'm not sure there's much we can necessarily do here, so it's probably going to have to be good old fashioned behaviour analysis to catch him out.

Gary (Sabrar) - not all that useful early on for town, or really any faction for that matter. I think we'll be able to judge their alignment somewhat based on their choice of character to copy.

Heather (Van) - could be useful to essentially role-block worrying players, but with the risk that they become doctors and able to protect scum buddies, depending on how she uses her powers. Turning people into doctors has its drawbacks, if they are scum etc. However, if we ever confirm someone as town, they should be doctored if their power isn't too useful. If Heather turns other people into doctors, we should be wary that they might be her team-mates, if she is scum (but wine).

Iggy (Snark) - not really all that useful ability in my opinion, until later on, if we suspect some people of being scum. Would be worrying if he is alive as scum and we are approaching lylo etc though, since he could potentially make a town player lose their saving vote.

Jimmy (jimbobmacdoodle) - a bit like Darryl's, I think my results will become a bit like clues in a logic puzzle. The longer I stay alive, the more clues I'll have, and together with Darryl's results, we could make some real headway in figuring out who is what. If I were scum, I guess I'd either use my results to try to gain town cred, or I'd provide false results to confuse others. Third party!me would either help town or be giving misinformation again, depending on their alignment or general play style.

Karl (Znirk) - could be useful if we suspect a protection role generated by Heather or otherwise from protecting scum, but otherwise much more useful to werewolves or lone wolves than town. If they end up as alien or third party, I'm not sure the power is that useful, unless a team mate has a kill power.

Luna (patzer) - Luna's millerness is useful for Darryl but otherwise irritating, as we won't be able to easily determine her alignment, should we need to. If she is town, her tracker power should be very useful to try to catch people out in their actions, or spotting the kill. If she is scum, she's not likely to provide any useful results (apart from outing other factions), but also isn't likely a massive threat to town either. Ditto for third party!Luna.

Marco (Yoloswag) - His inability to vote if he wants to be useful is not really going to be too big an issue, in my opinion, at least early on. If town, I'd expect him to spend a lot of time early on protecting people. If alien, I'd expect him to try to protect his teammates. If werewolf or lone wolf, I'd expect to see him killing people, or possibly roleblocking protection powers to try to get their other powers/kill through. In either case, it'd be worrying for town.If he's one of two killers in the druids, then they will win N1 and there's nothing much that can be done about it.

Nobody (Faubiguy) - not sure this power is particularly useful to town early on. I'd be slightly more concerned about him if scum, simply because he could redirect useful town powers onto himself (e.g. redirecting a Darryl cop from Xela). Druid!Nobody would probably try to redirect a kill onto themselves.

Will a player be informed if Nobody redirects their ability?

Oscar (roadierich) - kill powers in the hands of town are only useful if we can use them safely, as there's a good chance of hitting town. That said, there's not so much of a problem in this game compared to others, as he know's what power he's going to eliminate. On the other hand the same applies to scum. Being easily roleblocked could be a blessing or a curse to down, depending on his alignment. Clearing him as town would prove useful in this regard. I'd not be too worried about them if they are third-party.

Perry (ConMan) - I'd find it amusing if there power was obviously identifiable but he had to deny using it. Otherwise, not really sure there's much I can say here. His power could range from really useful for any faction to non-existent.

Quenton (mpolo) - Not sure of the usefulness of this power for any faction, given that there are relatively few role blockers or protection powers in the game. The best use I can think of is to verify any claims by Remus, or to detect any kills cancelled because of one of these powers. Could be useful if we ever needed to figure out if Bunny was hiding or not. May become more useful if Heather starts producing doctors. I'd not worry about them as scum or third party really, apart from possible misinformation.

Remus (DJ) - a role blocker in this sort of game would be very useful for scum, but easily noticed, given the open nature. For town, he'd be more useful if we can start tracking down scum. I could see this being a helpful role for pretty much any third party, for various reasons, but equally as annoying to town in most of these cases.

Suzaku (Suzaku) - I think this is a player that if we can clear as town will be incredibly useful - everybody will be expected to vote for him, or risk being lynched. Otherwise, he could be very dangerous, if we aren't careful.

Thomas (frogman) - the closest we have to a proper cop, so hopefully town. Hopefully we have a majority of tenure committee members as town. We'll have a better idea of this come tomorrow. As scum, he could simply select targets that aren't members of his faction, throwing in the occasional team mate as he wishes, so again mostly misinfomation is the biggest thing to worry about.

Ulysses (Opus_723) - I don't think this power is useful for town, nor for most scum factions. The biggest thing to fear is a delayed lynch (we can still lynch someone on the night he dives, if he does it to avoid being lynched). As alien, I'd expect him to use it sometime in the first few nights, if his teammates have already been killed.

Victor (Lawrencelot) - a good way to neutralise a lone wolf, if found, less so the werewolves, since if one is found to be neutralised by their team, they'll just give the kill to someone else or possibly kill Victor. The power could even be useful to town in the hands of a werewolf, just less so, since it would then only be useful versus lone wolves. Overall, I can't see any way this power would be harmful to town.

Wolfgang (SDK) - this could be useful if we discover two people to be of the same faction (or at least non-town) via Darryl or otherwise, or even potentially suspect people in this way. It would allow us to conserve a lynch or kill. In the hands of scum with a kill, this would be more worrying, since it would allow them to pick off two players at a time, but might be too obvious, so I expect SDK would save this for a more opportune time.

Xela (Diemo) - same as Luna regarding the alignment, Darryl etc. I'm not sure how we can detect them as scum again, apart from possibly via who they kill. Unblockable kills would be worrying in scum hands, especially if alien - at least in other scum hands the chances are they'd be looking for scum as a priority, although they still wouldn't care too much about who they kill.

Y (weiyaoli) - the backup investigation could be very useful, as it would help us reduce risk of misinformation from scum!investigators and potentially catch them in a lie. Of course, there would be the risk that Y would be spreading misinformation in turn, but that would become very obvious very quickly.

Zenith (Vytron) - I guess this is a rare reason to hammer, but as with any hammer votes, we'd have to be careful that it isn't abused by scum. Knowing what others did could be helpful to figure out who other scum are, and clear up misinformation spread around. Again though, scum!Zenith could just as easily spread misinformation with this power. I'm not too concerned about this role in the hands of scum unless start using this as an excuse to push a lynch before everyone's had a reasonable chance to speak.

Right that's it, and it took far longer to write than I was expecting, and I was rather running out of steam towards the end. I'll still try to write a reads list at some point this evening.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:00 am UTC

Apologies for two walls of text. Scroll to the bottom of this one for my conclusions. I have also asked a few people questions (look for @...) As promised, my current reads list, with post summaries as well:

moody7277:
votes/unvotes Suzaku. IGMEOY Lawrecenelot for vote on Oscar. Categorizes roles. Will be a miracle if he makes it to D2. Analyses discussion re. Suzaku.

sungura:
alignment/role spec (missed that alignments are random). Thinks bad idea for everyone to vote Suzaku. Suggestion of gambit seen as scummy. Opus on fence re. Suzaku - FOS. Votes Opus for discussion flip-flopping etc. Explains vote for Opus. Vytron, DJ, me, pinging. Not a fan of SDK/suzaku link

crucialityfactor:
Need to coordinate investigations to catch aliens. Suggests maths for his role. Druid claims would require follow up. Metagaming, roadierich (Oscar) is town. Should be investigated. Votes Suzaku. Finding Lawrencelot more scummy.

Dr Ug:

dimochka:
Happy to be targeted by Heather. Votes for Suzaku and then ConMan to use power. Gut says sungura, snark town; opus, vytron, moody not. Disagrees with Lawrencelot assessment. Thinks probably town, but acting too independently.
@Dimochka - I'm not getting how you feel moody as non-town - there's very little that he has posted by this point?

SirGabriel:
Seriously considers blocking Oscar. Votes ConMan for having a secret role. Votes Suzaku, then votes Snark for suggesting lynching druids. No problem with ConMan as doctor. Doesn't see how it would benefit anyone to kill druids. Not sure reason for Lawrencelot wagon. Discusses Van doctoring. Votes Dr Ug for lack of posting.

Sabrar:
Setup speculation. Volunteers to be doctored. Some ideas regarding characters. Asks whether to block or allow access to Suzaku and Oscar kills. Thoughts on factions, but doesn't mention either variety of werewolves, survivors, or traitors. Lovers particularly don't want to be killed. Lawrencelot vote on Oscar scummy. Merit in idea druids ally with town. Plan is good for town, not for druids. FOS Lawrencelot for failure to explain hurried vote on Oscar. Should have allowed discussion. Suspicious of those starting Suzaku vote train without discussion (SDK, Vytron). Does not mention aliens in list of voters for Suzaku. Lawrencelot sounding more townie, but highlights possible contradiction.

Van:
Tempted to doctorify ConMan. Concerned about making doctors - protection helps save aliens. Use nurse as permanent role-block. Voting Oscar = scummy. Doesn't want to risk Suzaku targeting him, as not alien.

Snark:
Posts role thoughts, which broadly match my own. Complains about inability to vote. Disagrees with underline voting due to number of kills, due to leeway for scum. ConMan might be there to prevent this tactic. Wants deaths early to enable scum hunting. Suggests I vote Suzaku. Wants druids to claim. Mind-controlled should claim. Missed that frogman targets are public. Continues druid focus. Dislikes Lawrencelot vote on Oscar. Claims druid claim request was gambit (seems reasonable).

Znirk:
Considers ability irrelevant early game. Discusses how to win as town. Maths on probability of aliens surviving. ConMan might have protection ability. Asks for ideas he might be missing re. his role. Votes for Suzaku, then unvotes. Queries Snark on druids should be lynched.

patzer:
Plays down risk of aliens somewhat, then says they are a major threat - alien trying to play down concerns but then realising that would make him look alien? Votes DJ, for his suggestion for ConMan to claim. Frogman should target Suzaku. Disagrees with doctoring ConMan. Better to cop him. Would have been better to discuss Suzaku, but can't go back. Votes Suzaku. Votes Lawrencelot for Oscar vote. FOS sungura for lack of player analysis.

Yoloswag:
Random FOS on SDK.

faubiguy:
Agrees to focus on aliens, then werewolves. Investigation results should be public. Mind controlled players should claim. Discusses kill powers. Suggests holding off on research proposal, but suzaku good candidate. Discusses Darryl strategy. Unknown role more risk to town if player is anti-town. Agrees with sungura re. Suzaku.

roadierich:

ConMan:
Aliens are priority, followed by werewolves. Lone wolves may help or hinder. Suggests Darryl investigate Xena plus others. Suggests voting for Suzaku after alignment ascertained. Darryl results = logic puzzle. Agrees with Sungura re. Suzaku. Investigations should be spread out. Votes Lawrencelot for blocking Oscar. Would like to be doctor, but not nurse.

mpolo:
Only has to worry about finding scum with power. Votes Suzaku. Would like to see how Opus deals with vote on him. Lawrencelot vote block troubling. Not getting vote on Snark.

DJ:
Focus on aliens, but oh don't forget the werewolves! Repeats the call from his previous post. Wary of certain players, because of their roles - broadly I agree with this list. Suggests lynching SDK (I think this is a joke). Suggests ConMan tells role (didn't read the role properly). More pressing targets to investigate than ConMan (could be trying to push investigations away from team-mate?). Votes SDK because of his completely unrelated reasons. Finds it odd that Lawrencelot has chosen to focus on him over alien focus.

suzaku:
Checks in. SDK question re. suzaku's alignment was silly. Lawrencelot vote on Oscar scummy.

frogman:
Suggests possible tactics for protectors and Darryl. Darryl suggestion somewhat useful, and supported by others. I suppose I should be grateful for the protection suggestion, but scum!frogman could be trying to distract protectors towards someone other than a high priority target (in his eyes). Asks if should use proposal on Suzaku. Will use proposal on Suzaku. Agrees with Sungura's opinion, gives balanced arguments.

Opus_723:
Agrees with Xela/Darryl plan. Concerned by Heather if scum. Nervous about turning Suzaku into vig. Should investigate them first. Discusses Darryl power more. Gives reasons for cautions re. Suzaku, then votes him. Still wants investigation on him. Doesn't like Snark underline vote, votes Snark, then unvotes after realising zero vote from Snark. Defends vote on Suzaku. Doesn't like half-vig Suzaku. Should exert influence over Suzaku kill. Trying to clean up Suzaku mess. Explains Snark vote.

Lawrencelot:
Vote-blocks Oscar in first post. Votes and unvotes Suzaku. DJ sounds like werewolves re. alien focus, thinks he disagrees. Suzaku as research proposal = good idea, similarly weiyaoli's plan. Highlights what most supsicious about DJ. Presents reasons for Oscar vote - no benefits from his point of view.
@Lawrencelot - what exactly do you disagree with DJ about, and why? Suggests ways to analyse bandwagon on himself. Accepts should have allowed discussion re. Oscar vote. Gives opinions based on interactions in this area. Still believes blocking Oscar's kill correct decision.

SDK:
Encourages vote for Suzaku, but does not vote himself. Suggests aliens as priority. Calls for volunteers for Heather to doctor. Votes DJ for "completely unrelated reasons".

Diemo:
Challenges Lawrencelot vote on Oscar. Aliens top priority. Snark seems townie, Lawrencelot scummy, werewolf vibe DJ, nothing crazy from SDK = clearly scum.

weiyaoli:
His power should not be publically coordinated. Anybody caught lying should be killed at night to avoid jesters.

Vytron:
Agrees with voting for Suzaku to make vig, those reluctant are trying for self-preservation. First to vote Suzaku. Suggests underline voting for suzaku kill. Paranoia over ConMan's role irrelevant. Questions dimochka on ConMan vote. Should prioritise aliens above all else. Missed lover spec that lovers are both town (almost certainly not a lover himself!). Votes Lawrencelot for vote on Oscar. Thinks Sungura thinks Opus scum because of disagreeing. Unvotes Lawrencelot, but finds him most suspicious. Discusses his own behaviour and why it seems different. Sungura might not be town.

@Vytron - why do you want to hammer Lawrencelot since your power has no useful effect D1, as far as I can see?

Scummy
dimochka (I dislike his defence of Lawrencelot, and scum-belief of moody after little content; insufficient analysis of other players so far)
patzer (I really didn't like her post downplaying alien threat, FOS on Sungura seems a bit harsh)
DJ (towards neutral end; I see where Lawrencelot is coming from here, a little)
Lawrencelot (his Oscar block was way too early without discussion)

Townie
sungura (I like her arguments for her point of view re. Suzaku and Opus)
Van (seems to genuinely be trying to consider best town strategy for their role)
Snark (I believe his claim about the druid gambit, and like what he's posted generally)
ConMan (overall opinions seem good to me)

Neutral (i.e. unknown, not necessarily suspected as third party)
moody7277
crucialityfactor
SirGabriel
sabrar (leaning towards scummy due to repeatedly missing out factions - especially the lack of aliens on Suzaku)
Znirk
faubiguy (could do with more independent thoughts, first impression is that most statements are rehashes of what others have posted)
mpolo
frogman
Opus (I see where sungura is coming from here, but I think it might also be an inexperienced player unwilling to commit)
SDK
Diemo
Vytron

Need to post (more)
Dr Ug
Yoloswag
roadierich
suzaku
weiyaoli
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:10 am UTC

Forgot to mention that Lawrencelot is my current top suspicion, but I don't really want to cause too much of a wagon at this stage of the day. I'd like discussion of other players too.
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Vytron » Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:57 am UTC

I'm not sure hammering Lawrencelot would have no effect, because I have no idea what info the mod has already sent to scum players, but I'd expect to get it if it existed.

How do you know if Lawrencelot has received any moderator notification or not? Well, if we lynch him and I hammer him, we'll know for certain.

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:37 am UTC

Vytron wrote:I'm not sure hammering Lawrencelot would have no effect, because I have no idea what info the mod has already sent to scum players, but I'd expect to get it if it existed.

How do you know if Lawrencelot has received any moderator notification or not? Well, if we lynch him and I hammer him, we'll know for certain.

Hmm... you're right I guess, though I doubt it will include their original role PM, since that would out their team mates. Unless I missed something, and assuming Conman doesn't have a day action, I don't think there's anything that you will get. I guess if the majority are in agreement it can't hurt.
If Zenith hammers a player D1 (Perry's ability aside) what sort of information is he going to receive?
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby Misnomer » Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:59 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Can Bunny hide and still perform a faction ability at night?

Yes.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Will a player be informed if Nobody redirects their ability?
Successful investigative actions will make clear that a redirection took place during the results PM (so a hypothetical standard cop, for example, would know that they had investigated Nobody rather than their chosen target). Otherwise there will be no direct notification for players that their actions were redirected.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:If Zenith hammers a player D1 (Perry's ability aside) what sort of information is he going to receive?
I won't answer this in full, but I can confirm that details such as faction membership, werewolf kill decision allocation, actions submitted, questions answered by the Mod via PM etc. will NOT be revealed.


Votals:

SDK (1): Djehutynakht
ConMan (1): dimochka
Djehutynakht (1): SDK
Dr Ug (1): SirGabriel
Lawrencelot (2): ConMan, patzer
Opus_723 (1): Sungura

Not voting (18): moody7277, cruicalityfactor, Dr Ug, Sabrar, Van, jimbobmacdoodle, znirk, YOLOSWAG, Faubiguy, roadierich, ConMan, mpolo, Suzaku, Frogman, Opus_723, Diemo, weiyaoli, Vytron

Game Status:
Snark is currently voteless.
6 Tenure Committee members are alive.
13 votes required to majority lynch.
moody7277 wrote:The role of SDK in this game will be played by Misnomer. [/soapopera]

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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:49 pm UTC

Sup guys. If I bold/underline your name I'm trying to talk to you and would really appreciate a response.

We need to look out for people who are expending too much effort into role speculation. Later on keep an eye out for people overextending connections between the anti-town factions as a pretext for scumhunting. It provides scum great cover for looking like they're doing something instead of scumhunting. I've kept my mouth shut so as to not tip off scum but enough time has passed that it's worth sharing. These tactics are the perfect way for them to blend in with town.

I don't agree with directing anyone else's roles at this point. We deprive ourselves of information that way because it gives scum way too much leeway and influence over actions and the people performing those actions. It's better to just let people do what they want and hold them accountable if it looks like their actions are clashing with town interest. Also, I think telling everyone what to do takes the fun out of all these roles :wink:. That said I would probably be down to give suggestions on who to target once we're further in the game and a have a firmer grasp on alignments. That way we can recognize it's actually town working together instead of 50 different alignments with their hands in the cookie jar.

1. http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=112962&start=80#p3879261
2. http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=112962&start=160#p3879685

1. REALLY do not like this post by Opus. He fears that Van or Suzaku may be scum and explains how their roles could hurt town but I don't understand what he's accomplishing there besides spreading paranoia. It reads to me like scum talking for the sake of talking.

2. This Snark vote is bad and for Opus to go for him over Lawrence baffles me. I understand Opus' reason here, but to zero in on that and ignore Snark's other posts (especially when he started the discussion about the Druids) smacks of opportunistic scum.

I'm on page 4 and Opus is still focusing on Suzaku's power and other role abilities. Yeah, this guy's scum.

http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=112962&start=120#p3879397
http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=112962&start=160#p3879494

Wow. Lawrence's first vote here looked pretty bad and I'm not a fan of his reasoning either. I'd think a townie would actually put in the effort of trying to read Oscar/roadierich before blocking his power like that. He just deprived us of the opportunity to analyze roadie's would-be kill.

http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=112962&start=160#p3879477

Smart. Snark, you mentioned that you'd FOS the people that opposed your plan. Who would those people be? I'm asking because I felt some pings over the Druid discussion but could use help pinpointing where they came from.

Opus is the best lynch thus far, Lawrence can go too. Much more confident in the former than the latter but either can go. Good start.

FOS Opus
FOS Lawrence

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patzer
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Re: Smalltown Werewolf PYP - D1: A is for Anarchy

Postby patzer » Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:15 am UTC

Okay, this is quite difficult to follow. It seems to me that we should lynch Lawrencelot, because he's the only player who jumped out at me as being scummy. But I could well have overlooked something, so I'll try to have a look back at the game and analyse each of the 26 players soon.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams


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